:00:10. > :00:18.Welcome to hard tour, that are hard tour. My guess is in London to
:00:19. > :00:24.attend an energy conference and to convince the world that his country
:00:25. > :00:30.is not sliding back into civil war. Hussain Al-Shahristani is a ruck's
:00:31. > :00:39.Deputy Prime Minister for energy. -- Iraq. Why is Iraq so close to
:00:40. > :00:57.tearing itself apart in a renewal of sectarian confrontation?
:00:58. > :01:03.Hussain Al-Shahristani, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for the
:01:04. > :01:08.invitation, it is or is a pleasure. Nice to have you back the programme,
:01:09. > :01:13.you are here in London to sell a message that Iraq is ready to play a
:01:14. > :01:23.role on the world stage as an energy giant. The next 20, 30 years. It is
:01:24. > :01:25.ought of -- awfully difficult messages sell given what is
:01:26. > :01:33.happening in your country. Not really, given Iraq reserves with oil
:01:34. > :01:38.and gas, its potential and the need for oil in the world, it makes my
:01:39. > :01:44.task not that difficult. It is true that Iraq is going through difficult
:01:45. > :01:51.times as far as security is concerned, this is many because of
:01:52. > :01:56.what is going on in Syria. That has not really affected our energy
:01:57. > :02:01.development policies or what we have managed to accomplish, increased oil
:02:02. > :02:07.production significantly, we have put more oil on the world market and
:02:08. > :02:14.we have have continued to do so despite the security situation. The
:02:15. > :02:17.problem is you have oversee oil industry for the best part of ten
:02:18. > :02:20.years, five years ago you were telling me that a ruck's security
:02:21. > :02:28.problems will a thing of the past. You tell me that a -- Iraq's
:02:29. > :02:33.production would be up to 4.5 billion barrels per day. It is not
:02:34. > :02:38.true. It is true that the security situation affects development of
:02:39. > :02:49.oilfields. It has done so, we're not denying that, as a matter of fact,
:02:50. > :02:52.last year 54 times our oil pipelines to Turkey have been attacked by
:02:53. > :02:59.terrorists. That is an average of attack week. Yet, we have managed to
:03:00. > :03:07.repair it and export 250,000 barrels to rid across Turkey to the
:03:08. > :03:14.Mediterranean. In January 2008 you said oil can either unite Iraqis
:03:15. > :03:21.into a prosperous democratic society or it can split Iraq into warring
:03:22. > :03:27.factions. The fact is that there is no sign of Iraq uniting, there is
:03:28. > :03:38.every sign that Iraq is sleeping into warring factions. The security
:03:39. > :03:42.situation is not about oil policy. I'm not suggesting that. I am
:03:43. > :03:45.suggesting that no amount of increased revenue from the oil
:03:46. > :03:49.industry will change the fact on the ground which is your country, right
:03:50. > :03:55.now, is right back on the brink of civil war. You need to put that in
:03:56. > :03:59.context. We are living in a turbulent time in the region, that
:04:00. > :04:07.is not very stable. What is happening in Syria is affecting Iraq
:04:08. > :04:11.in this way. The security situation in Iraq is a result of what is
:04:12. > :04:22.happening in Syria. Is that your contention? What we see in the --
:04:23. > :04:27.Father Joe. Men with guns that of oil to Al Qaeda are controlling the
:04:28. > :04:31.streets. You are saying that as a result of what is happening in
:04:32. > :04:43.Syria? I'm not saying that, Syria is allowing these terrorists, many of
:04:44. > :04:45.them are not Iraqi, they're coming across Syrian borders. We have more
:04:46. > :04:53.than 600 kilometres of desert borders with Syria. They are quite
:04:54. > :04:57.porous. The weapons that have been sent to these terrorist
:04:58. > :04:59.organisations in Syria, I'm not talking about legitimate resistance
:05:00. > :05:03.and the demands of the Syrian people, that is an issue for the
:05:04. > :05:09.Syrians for themselves to handle, I am saying there are international
:05:10. > :05:12.terrorists groups operating in Syria that are receiving arms and a lot of
:05:13. > :05:19.those arms have been transferred into Iraq. There may be weapons and
:05:20. > :05:24.there may be weapons and then maybe men right now who have infiltrated
:05:25. > :05:31.from Syria, I don't dispute that is hardly possible. What you seem to be
:05:32. > :05:34.ignoring is there had been a series of missteps and miscalculations by
:05:35. > :05:43.your government which have lured over the past year with a sense of
:05:44. > :05:47.inevitability to the extremists taking control of swathes of your
:05:48. > :05:52.territory. You'll A I accept that the government has a responsibility
:05:53. > :05:58.in managing the political system in the country. And accommodating all
:05:59. > :06:03.of the political groups in the way process. There has been no
:06:04. > :06:09.accommodation, your prime minister, your boss's perdition, the approach
:06:10. > :06:17.he has taken to the Sunni population has led to this situation where not
:06:18. > :06:21.just its grimmest -- extremist from outside but Sony people in those
:06:22. > :06:25.towns and cities have said enough. We're not repaired to live under
:06:26. > :06:35.this government and its repression any more. I have heard that story
:06:36. > :06:40.from observers from outside of Iraq and from the Iraqi people. I have a
:06:41. > :06:43.committee looking into the grievances of the demonstrators over
:06:44. > :06:48.the last year and I have heard a lot of that but also I have heard
:06:49. > :06:56.different stories. You cannot blame one person or one group for the
:06:57. > :06:59.political problems of an emerging democracy after decades of
:07:00. > :07:03.dictatorship. And sectarian divisions. You can say the wake
:07:04. > :07:08.prime minister who has been in office for two terms that the buck
:07:09. > :07:13.stops with you and you will be judged on your record trying to
:07:14. > :07:25.bring all the different communities and sex inside Iraq together. --
:07:26. > :07:30.sect 's. You talk about the committee you have been involved in.
:07:31. > :07:35.That was set up after an assault in April to -- 2013 after 40 peaceful
:07:36. > :07:43.Sunni protesters were killed by Mr al-Maliki's security forces. I wish
:07:44. > :07:47.you would read a report of what happened there. I was a member of
:07:48. > :07:52.that committee, I was not cheering. I was chairing the committee about
:07:53. > :07:59.the demonstrators in Anbar province and elsewhere in Iraq. You only need
:08:00. > :08:04.to read a report to see the allegations of illegal detentions,
:08:05. > :08:09.of torture, of extrajudicial killing, conducted by your
:08:10. > :08:16.government's security forces are legion. There have been some miss
:08:17. > :08:20.calculations in the actions... That is not the right word,
:08:21. > :08:23.miscalculations? This is a government that is allowing it
:08:24. > :08:32.security forces to behave, frankly, like a sectarian militia. Abiding by
:08:33. > :08:36.Noble whatsoever. I think you're going a bit extreme in judging what
:08:37. > :08:41.has happened on the ground. I have been watching and they have been
:08:42. > :08:44.very sensitive to any human rights abuses because I have been a victim
:08:45. > :08:51.of it and I know what that would mean. The fact is, your government
:08:52. > :08:56.-- no government, as much as they try and the good intentions they
:08:57. > :09:01.have can solve a political crisis unless the various factions are
:09:02. > :09:07.willing to sit and find a solution. That is acceptable to all parties.
:09:08. > :09:11.Agreed. Sorry for the interruption, but you say there has to be a
:09:12. > :09:16.willingness on the sunny side to sit down and talk. I say to you, if that
:09:17. > :09:19.is your position, why on earth did the government security forces, for
:09:20. > :09:25.example at the end of last year, rushing with their guns aloft,
:09:26. > :09:32.arrest one of the leading MPs from the Sunni community in the process,
:09:33. > :09:37.kill his brother and outrage the more moderate opinion within the
:09:38. > :09:45.Sunni community. Why? Listen, you're trying to put it as if it is a Sunni
:09:46. > :09:54.and Shia divide in Iraq. That is part of the story. There is also a
:09:55. > :10:01.pretty -- political divide. There are different political opinions.
:10:02. > :10:13.Trying to reduce the problem in Iraq to just a Sunni and assuming because
:10:14. > :10:17.the implication is if the Sunnis are supporting the extremist abuse of Al
:10:18. > :10:20.Qaeda. Those try to hijack society. I don't mean to imply that but what
:10:21. > :10:31.I do mean to imply is there is wisdom in the words saying the
:10:32. > :10:35.oppression displayed by al-Maliki's forces have impelled Al Qaeda
:10:36. > :10:43.because he very forces that should have brought security and safety
:10:44. > :10:49.have become part of the thread. He is entitled to his opinion. That is
:10:50. > :10:56.his, that is what he says. As we speak, now, there is a problem in
:10:57. > :11:02.Volusia where the Islamic state for Barack is controlling the city
:11:03. > :11:08.centre. -- the Islamic state for Iraq. People are asking, calling on
:11:09. > :11:17.the government to send in troops, knowing there could be casualties. A
:11:18. > :11:23.bloodbath. Exactly, a bloodbath, they are asking the government to
:11:24. > :11:30.get freedom from these extremists. It is not always a Sony-Shia divide.
:11:31. > :11:36.There is an extremist idolater -- ideology that has built itself in
:11:37. > :11:41.the Middle East. It is in Syria, it is in Iraq and in some north African
:11:42. > :11:44.countries. The problem is that this ideology does not represent the
:11:45. > :11:50.Sunni community and to assume these are the people is not doing justice
:11:51. > :11:55.to the Sunnis themselves. Understood and you make plain the fact it is
:11:56. > :12:00.dangerous to assume there is unity on either side of the divide. I put
:12:01. > :12:07.the CU very bluntly, on the Shia side this argument, you are a Shia
:12:08. > :12:11.just like a pro minister is, there is a division. I would say that your
:12:12. > :12:18.reputation for being a moderate suggest to me you have actually real
:12:19. > :12:23.concerns about the way Mr al-Maliki has handled his approach to the
:12:24. > :12:32.Sunni community in your country. Yes? I have concern for the
:12:33. > :12:37.divisions and political crisis is in the country. I do not think anyone
:12:38. > :12:45.can be blamed or held responsible for what we are going through. When
:12:46. > :12:50.your government arrests people, like elected MPs who are regarded as a
:12:51. > :12:58.genuine representative of grievances. By doing that, you tell
:12:59. > :13:06.the Sunni that you are not interested in power sharing, or real
:13:07. > :13:11.dialogue. There was an arrest warrant from a judge. It was not a
:13:12. > :13:19.government decision. Duty you think the courts are independent? To a
:13:20. > :13:27.large extent. As far as I know it, the judiciary in Iraq is as
:13:28. > :13:36.independent as in any democracy. I thought the deputy and a steep that
:13:37. > :13:42.back -- the deputy Prime Minister would never be involved. A respect
:13:43. > :13:46.the judgement he has passed. I live the work of human rights
:13:47. > :13:55.individuals, who have spent many years going back to the Saddam era,
:13:56. > :14:02.saying that the danger is that Iraqis entering a new era of
:14:03. > :14:06.dictatorship. That is how she has described the way al-Maliki is
:14:07. > :14:10.running his institutions. We are running elections in three months
:14:11. > :14:16.time. People can vote for whichever government they want. If you have
:14:17. > :14:23.any fear of an evolving dictatorship in Iraq, I can sympathise without
:14:24. > :14:31.fear. The Iraqis have been through this. You spent more than a decade
:14:32. > :14:36.in prison, so you know all too well. The only way to make sure that we do
:14:37. > :14:42.not have a dictatorship, is to have fair elections. The people can
:14:43. > :14:45.choose a government. Let me ask you some more strategic questions
:14:46. > :14:54.regarding things beyond Iraq's borders. We have talked about Syria
:14:55. > :14:59.already. You insist that the Syrian security situation has infected
:15:00. > :15:02.Iraqis a serious way. If the situation in Syria becomes even more
:15:03. > :15:12.unstable and the country does sink into complete chaos, how dangerous
:15:13. > :15:16.will that be for the right. Could it spreads that complete instability
:15:17. > :15:32.and chaos into Iraq? The two countries have a very similar
:15:33. > :15:42.society. A society made of many sects and tribes and religion. Any
:15:43. > :15:48.care to -- any chaotic situation in Syria will be seen in Iraq. We have
:15:49. > :15:55.been careful not to allow that to happen. Does it make sense for the
:15:56. > :16:05.right to play a role, allowing the Iranians elements to use your
:16:06. > :16:13.airspace and Borders to back up the regime? Iraq was the first country
:16:14. > :16:19.to point out to all concerned that the Syrian crisis cannot be settled
:16:20. > :16:23.with military. We advised the Syrian government not to use arms against
:16:24. > :16:30.their people. We wanted them to listen to the legitimate demands of
:16:31. > :16:45.the people. And they did not listen? We want that use of arms by either
:16:46. > :16:51.side will not reach any conclusion. After three years, the world
:16:52. > :17:03.realises that there is no solution to this crisis. The only way out is
:17:04. > :17:08.for all parties to sit together, work together, stop the bloodshed
:17:09. > :17:15.immediately, ask foreign fighters to leave the country, allow
:17:16. > :17:22.humanitarian aid, and conduct free elections. Let the Syrian people
:17:23. > :17:29.choose their government. Unlike the rest of the Arab league, Iraq still
:17:30. > :17:35.acknowledges the legitimacy of President Assad, yes or no? We
:17:36. > :17:44.recognise all Arab governments as the status quo, as they are. You
:17:45. > :17:48.still see President Assad as having absolute right to sit there in the
:17:49. > :17:51.presidential palace? We are seeing that the Syrian government is in
:17:52. > :18:00.charge of that country for the time being. The same is true about other
:18:01. > :18:04.countries. There are violations. We do not judge the government. We do
:18:05. > :18:15.not decide which is a legitimate government. The US is mulling over
:18:16. > :18:21.whether to supply hellfire missiles, some drones, you have tanks, you
:18:22. > :18:26.want more. You want more guns. Billions of dollars worth of arms. I
:18:27. > :18:33.spoke to the former Defence Secretary. He said, we should only
:18:34. > :18:41.supply military support, conditions on al-Maliki reaching out in a new
:18:42. > :18:49.way to Sunni and other groups inside his own country and uniting the
:18:50. > :18:54.country. Is that going to happen? Remoulding Iraq's Armed Forces,
:18:55. > :19:05.supplying them with arms, has been a part of our strategic cooperation
:19:06. > :19:13.with the US. Those weapons are not given to an individual. The army,
:19:14. > :19:18.and rebuilding the army, is necessary for the fight against
:19:19. > :19:25.terrorism. Terrorism is a serious issue in the Middle East in general.
:19:26. > :19:36.Do you now regret failing to do a deal with the US to allow them to
:19:37. > :19:43.keep some residual bases? Al-Maliki and the government said no. Was that
:19:44. > :19:57.a mistake? We do not want manpower to fight terrorists. They have moved
:19:58. > :20:00.into the desert. We have been overwhelmed with requests to
:20:01. > :20:10.volunteer to fight the terrorists by a young Iraqi men. It is the women's
:20:11. > :20:14.and training. We will come back to oil, it is your biggest
:20:15. > :20:21.responsibility. Right now, the Kurdish regional government is
:20:22. > :20:25.pushing through a pipeline to Turkey, against your instruction and
:20:26. > :20:32.wishes. Will you do a deal to allow them to benefit from their Royal?
:20:33. > :20:43.That oil is Iraqi oil. It has to be sold at market price. The revenue
:20:44. > :20:47.has to be deposited, otherwise Iraq will be considered in breach of its
:20:48. > :20:51.resolution. The revenue should be distributed amongst all Iraqis to
:20:52. > :20:58.get the country united. These are not conditions, this is the way oil
:20:59. > :21:02.should be exported. I am telling you, you know better than I do, that
:21:03. > :21:06.last year, the Kurdish regional government signed a deal with
:21:07. > :21:12.Turkey, and energy deal. Right now it looks as though oil from the
:21:13. > :21:15.Kurdish region is going to go into Turkey and be sold on the
:21:16. > :21:21.international market. I want to know what she will do about it. I will
:21:22. > :21:26.tell you what they are telling us, they will not export oil unless an
:21:27. > :21:33.agreement is reached with the Federal government in Baghdad. They
:21:34. > :21:38.realise that it is Iraqi oil. The revenue from the sales should come
:21:39. > :21:43.to the Iraqi budget. Are you telling me that a deal is about to be done
:21:44. > :21:49.in this long-running dispute about who gets the oil revenues, how they
:21:50. > :21:53.are shared? Is about to be solved? They are not clear that a deal is
:21:54. > :22:02.about to be done, I am telling you that the government of Iraq has made
:22:03. > :22:06.some proposals, which have been, from the Kurdish point of view, very
:22:07. > :22:10.fair and balanced. They have asked for some time to consider the
:22:11. > :22:20.proposal. With elections living in April, and Hussain Al-Shahristani
:22:21. > :22:25.are wanting to run -- Hussain Al-Shahristani wanting to run, is
:22:26. > :22:33.that the reason why you are all studies are receptive? Not at all.
:22:34. > :22:37.We will not judge the election results. We will respect the
:22:38. > :22:43.outcome, whatever it is, whoever wins. Iraqis could be through
:22:44. > :22:50.difficult times, politically, socially and economically. We will
:22:51. > :22:53.have to see if the Iraqi people decide to elect a group that can
:22:54. > :23:00.really provide them with good government. That will be very good.
:23:01. > :23:06.If they decide to go for sectarian parties, four warring factions and
:23:07. > :23:14.so on, that is their choice. Nobody can do much about it. Which way do
:23:15. > :23:25.you think they will go? I have confidence in the Iraqi people. They
:23:26. > :23:31.have lived for millennia in harmony. They have always been a diversified
:23:32. > :23:36.society. I have faith that they will eventually solve their problems,
:23:37. > :23:41.live in peace, and Iraq will be a beacon of peace, stability, progress
:23:42. > :23:45.and prosperity in the Middle East. We can only hope that that vision
:23:46. > :24:15.come true. For now, thank you for being on HARDtalk.
:24:16. > :24:23.We know which has already been a West January. Today has yet more
:24:24. > :24:27.rain in the forecast. Heavy rain as this next low pressure area wines in
:24:28. > :24:33.off the Atlantic, not just threatening rain, but snow. Not
:24:34. > :24:34.without quite yet. Not for most of