:00:00. > :00:00.on Saturday. Police said a 23-year-old man died at the scene
:00:00. > :00:00.and a 20-year-old woman died later in hospital. Their families have
:00:00. > :00:12.been informed. Now it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:21.Welcome to a special HARDtalk from India. I am in Delhi, the proud
:00:22. > :00:24.capital of the nation but also a city that over the past year has
:00:25. > :00:31.been tarnished by an association with sexual violence. You may
:00:32. > :00:35.remember that over a year ago, young female student died after a brutal
:00:36. > :00:40.gang rape. That prompted protests across this nation, people demanding
:00:41. > :00:46.the government take action to end gender violence. At the heart of
:00:47. > :00:52.that campaign, like guest today - women rights activists, Kavita
:00:53. > :00:53.Krishnan. What does India need to do to make this country safer and more
:00:54. > :01:27.equal for women. ? Kavita Krishnan welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:28. > :01:32.The brutal gang rape of the young woman in Delhi summer 13 months ago
:01:33. > :01:42.- do you believe it has proved some sort of watershed moment here? In
:01:43. > :01:46.some senses yes. I think it marked a moment when we became aware of a
:01:47. > :01:53.shift in people 's perception, at least, in a large section of people
:01:54. > :02:02.about the sexual violence and the phenomenon of victim blaming. We
:02:03. > :02:05.have had protest demanding punishment but what was new last
:02:06. > :02:13.year, there were young voices are especially, raising spontaneous
:02:14. > :02:17.slogans on the street against victim blaming, against the habit of saying
:02:18. > :02:29.that women should behave in April pick your way in order to be safe.
:02:30. > :02:35.-- particular way. Here in India, it was a great moment. It is
:02:36. > :02:39.interesting that politicians who did not get it at the beginning, and
:02:40. > :02:43.going back to the fallout and immediate aftermath of the gang
:02:44. > :02:50.rape, those politicians who did not get it were published like public
:02:51. > :02:57.opinion. The former Chief Minister talked about women who went out late
:02:58. > :03:03.at night were, to use words, the very adventurous. They punished her
:03:04. > :03:10.but the phenomenon of not getting it is much larger. Today, I am standing
:03:11. > :03:19.at the moment with the Chief Minister who has replaced who is
:03:20. > :03:21.using terminology... This indicates the politicians, even those who
:03:22. > :03:27.profess to be interested in human rights, have not really changed? It
:03:28. > :03:31.is a hard battle and it has brought home to me this moment because we
:03:32. > :03:37.have a newly properly elected government which has come on the
:03:38. > :03:42.back of a lot of aspirations of people and people expect change.
:03:43. > :03:47.They were talking about change. It was a Barack Obama moment. People
:03:48. > :03:50.were talking about change but that change comes and stops at the door
:03:51. > :03:55.of poetry are key. You have the same moralising comments that make the
:03:56. > :04:08.distinction between the start and the good woman. -- slut. This stroke
:04:09. > :04:14.-- of these slogans were race last year. In other words, you want
:04:15. > :04:21.equality not just protection. Genuine equality? In fact, that was
:04:22. > :04:28.the slogan raised last year. It said Felis freedom. The tech that the
:04:29. > :04:32.Felis freedom of women and also in gay people, transgender people,
:04:33. > :04:38.people who did not seem so respectable - all those vulnerable
:04:39. > :04:46.sections which raise buyers and discrimination. We ask for freedom
:04:47. > :04:52.Felis for them all. It is hard to be Felis when the backlash has been so
:04:53. > :05:00.extreme. In one online Internet, you were threatened with rape. Yes, and
:05:01. > :05:06.I realised since then that in social media it has not happened for the
:05:07. > :05:10.first time it has happened again. I do not fear those people who make
:05:11. > :05:22.the threat of social media but right now, I am more fearful of how the
:05:23. > :05:26.very issue of rape is being used to justify violence of women on other
:05:27. > :05:33.communities, four instant religious minorities - or to stigmatise young
:05:34. > :05:42.men, of consensual relationships of women with young men. The fear of
:05:43. > :05:49.rape, let me be clear, the fear of rape with the consensual
:05:50. > :05:55.relationship with men with oppressed classes, we have seen incredible
:05:56. > :06:03.violence being handed out to these minorities and religious minorities.
:06:04. > :06:09.I was seriously fearful to see that the slogans being used to stock up
:06:10. > :06:19.that violence was to keep our mothers and daughters safe from
:06:20. > :06:23.them. It is complicated. But there seems to be one truth that is
:06:24. > :06:28.relatively simple and that is that in India today, this system, I am
:06:29. > :06:34.thinking of policing, the nature of investigation and the judicial
:06:35. > :06:40.system, mitigate against women reporting rape and believing they
:06:41. > :06:47.would ultimately get justice - has that changed at all in the last
:06:48. > :06:51.year? They have been more people coming forward to report. I still
:06:52. > :07:01.think it is a rape is terribly unreported -- underreported. 24,000
:07:02. > :07:06.- only 5000 rapes in India. That figure cannot be credible given the
:07:07. > :07:09.size of the country and the systematic research that suggests
:07:10. > :07:13.vast numbers of women, vast numbers of women experience of rape and
:07:14. > :07:19.sexual assault yet most of them do not believe they can report it. The
:07:20. > :07:25.experiences of the last few months, of the women who have come forward,
:07:26. > :07:32.for example is at sexual harassment by powerful people, against Supreme
:07:33. > :07:37.Court judges and so on... To be clear, that is happening even today.
:07:38. > :07:41.That is happening and I think what was encouraging was that in a case
:07:42. > :07:46.of some of these instances, women could come forward, confide in male
:07:47. > :07:52.colleagues and expect and get support. But even in those
:07:53. > :07:56.instances, we are seeing this terrible clash of where the women
:07:57. > :08:02.who have complained of being called stooges of politicians, there
:08:03. > :08:06.questions are being raised about their character and it is a very,
:08:07. > :08:15.very hard. What have you actually achieved in the past year after all
:08:16. > :08:21.the campaign? Undercover interviews with police found 17 said they
:08:22. > :08:27.believed that the majority of rape claims were false and about
:08:28. > :08:32.consensual sex. Then we had the former police commissioner saying
:08:33. > :08:39.90% of rape claims were false. How do you change the police? It has to
:08:40. > :08:43.start with accountability. There is so little political will towards
:08:44. > :08:47.that. We have been talking about police reform and saying that police
:08:48. > :08:50.reform should mean less corruption in the police, freedom from
:08:51. > :08:57.political control but above all, it must mean that you make them
:08:58. > :09:00.accountable about what being inner constitution means and stands for.
:09:01. > :09:08.It means respect the human rights and women's and so on. Has it that
:09:09. > :09:12.started? Very, very little. Very little willingness to go that way. I
:09:13. > :09:19.do not just mean the police, the judiciary will stop in the past few
:09:20. > :09:27.months, we have seen sexist comments, talking about women who
:09:28. > :09:35.have premarital sex should not cry rape and that kind of thing. You
:09:36. > :09:39.have policeman displaying the kind of attitudes that unless a woman is
:09:40. > :09:44.battered to the point of nearly dying, she must be lying about being
:09:45. > :09:51.raped. This is the assumption that parades. One has to be personal in a
:09:52. > :09:56.way. You live in Delhi. If you had the terrible misfortune of being
:09:57. > :10:00.sexually assaulted, would you have sufficient faith in the police to go
:10:01. > :10:05.to them and expect them to fully investigate and deliver justice on
:10:06. > :10:11.your behalf? It is not a matter of faith will stop it is a matter of
:10:12. > :10:17.wanting to hold them accountable. In my case, of course, I would but what
:10:18. > :10:21.I am saying is that for when it -- for many women it is a hard choice.
:10:22. > :10:26.What is going to follow is a prolonged kind of humiliation. Even
:10:27. > :10:30.in order to achieve justice, you would have to approve your
:10:31. > :10:34.respectability, prove that you had some modesty all respectability,
:10:35. > :10:40.that was violated, essentially it becomes about York character from
:10:41. > :10:46.the police station right up to the courtroom. Changing that is a very
:10:47. > :10:49.hard thing in India. Are you being a little unfair to the authorities in
:10:50. > :10:53.the centre that because partly of the campaign that you and others
:10:54. > :10:58.have run the past year, there have been efforts to change particularly
:10:59. > :11:04.the judicial system whose speed up the process, fast track rape cases
:11:05. > :11:09.and also toughened up the penalties for a series of sex crimes and of
:11:10. > :11:21.rape will stop the Vernon commission came up with points and they are
:11:22. > :11:27.being implemented. They are accepting some of them, in terms of
:11:28. > :11:31.expanding the definition of rape but in many matters, it has gone against
:11:32. > :11:37.the spirit of what the commission recommended. The instance, we had to
:11:38. > :11:43.talk about Richard dies in -- recognising that men can also be
:11:44. > :11:47.raped, we wanted them to recognise homosexuality, to make the
:11:48. > :11:51.distinction between consensual homosexual relations and homosexual
:11:52. > :11:56.rape but they have not done that... Why it to you think, and we will
:11:57. > :12:02.talk in a moment about perhaps the battle to change Indian mindset,
:12:03. > :12:08.easy to wisely to insist that would one is talking about gender equality
:12:09. > :12:15.and sexual violence that one has to put the issues facing homosexuals on
:12:16. > :12:19.the very same table as those facing women who have been raped four
:12:20. > :12:25.example? I think absolutely, we must, because I think it is very
:12:26. > :12:34.important to recognise here that the same laws that relies homosexuality
:12:35. > :12:39.that talks about unnatural sex... I see that... I am sorry to interrupt
:12:40. > :12:44.but if you want to win hearts and minds of one particular issue -
:12:45. > :12:50.daddies the immediate challenge of your complaint of getting India to
:12:51. > :12:55.address the problem of violence against women - is it wise to run
:12:56. > :13:00.the campaign in the way... The Supreme Court has come into a bit of
:13:01. > :13:05.a shock recently. They have overturned the Delhi verdict that
:13:06. > :13:09.particular allies homosexuality and they assumed they would have a whole
:13:10. > :13:12.lot of support when I say that has been a shift in public perception,
:13:13. > :13:19.and I see that as an achievement for the movement, it is that the verdict
:13:20. > :13:22.of the Supreme Court which wreak relies homosexuality has been
:13:23. > :13:34.greeted across-the-board with huge protest. And not just on small
:13:35. > :13:38.struggling gay groups. Are you telling me there had been protesting
:13:39. > :13:43.India 's most remote villages, demanding a change of law on
:13:44. > :13:49.homosexuality? Not in remote villages but definitely in cities.
:13:50. > :13:56.There are elite. Not at all. Large numbers of people in the protests
:13:57. > :14:00.last year were not elite at all. They think differently which
:14:01. > :14:10.means... I'll tell you the barometer for this, most politicians relying
:14:11. > :14:13.on the religious right. The party that will be the next government in
:14:14. > :14:19.India. All the other parties have had to come out, they were timid
:14:20. > :14:22.about this, but they have come out and said that they believe it
:14:23. > :14:28.shouldn't be criminalised. These include political leaders... Even
:14:29. > :14:36.those that do not clearly something is changing. Let us put this
:14:37. > :14:41.conversation in the context of Indian tradition and the way India
:14:42. > :14:48.sees itself and sees its future. It seems to me that you are raising
:14:49. > :14:52.profound questions, not just about issues specifically to do with
:14:53. > :14:57.gender and gender-based law, but also about how women are treated in
:14:58. > :15:01.the home, within the legal system in terms of basic things like
:15:02. > :15:04.inheritance, and also about what happens inside Indian people 's
:15:05. > :15:08.hearts and minds when it comes to basic issues of whether men and
:15:09. > :15:18.women are seen as equal. You are raising all of this, no? I would
:15:19. > :15:24.like to say we are raising this in India because we are raising it
:15:25. > :15:28.here. I sense Solidarity. I've been told by activists in other countries
:15:29. > :15:33.including the UK, US and France and other places, that they feel a sense
:15:34. > :15:37.of strength when they see our struggle in India. I don't see this
:15:38. > :15:43.as only about changing Indian culture or Indian ways of looking at
:15:44. > :15:50.women. But at the Kintyre global sense of fixing women roles in
:15:51. > :15:54.certain ways. That's happening outside India as well. It's being
:15:55. > :15:59.reinforced by the economic policies we are seeing now unfortunately. You
:16:00. > :16:05.are having austerity measures, of course in India and I'll swear, and
:16:06. > :16:08.they are needing to tell women once again you should subscribe to roles
:16:09. > :16:17.and if you don't you're about mother will stop Ashmount elsewhere. --
:16:18. > :16:20.elsewhere. If we stick to the notion that you're challenging India in
:16:21. > :16:29.profound ways, just how negative your view of India is. Let me quote
:16:30. > :16:37.you words from Save the Children charity, and in India, girls are
:16:38. > :16:40.sold, married off from ten, burned alive through Gary disputes and
:16:41. > :16:45.young girls exploited and abused as domestic slave labour. -- domestic
:16:46. > :16:51.disputes. Is that the port of what it means to be female in India
:16:52. > :16:56.today's we need to recognise, of course there are terrible things
:16:57. > :17:03.happening. Is your view as dark as that? It seems profoundly negative.
:17:04. > :17:07.I have a dark view of what it means to be female in anywhere in the
:17:08. > :17:12.world. I don't think it's especially about India. Is not the same being a
:17:13. > :17:15.woman in the UK as it is in India. It is important to see the
:17:16. > :17:19.distinction. That's what were fighting to change. It's not so much
:17:20. > :17:27.women are victims here and not elsewhere, but about the fact that
:17:28. > :17:31.we are fighting the notion in India that women have to prove
:17:32. > :17:35.respectability in order to demand dignity, equality and so on. These
:17:36. > :17:38.are battles that are being fought in different parts of the world in
:17:39. > :17:46.different ways. In India, our emphasis is on challenging out car
:17:47. > :17:52.-- our caste system. White how do you get inside people 's heads and
:17:53. > :17:56.change their very basic views. Let me tell you something encouraging.
:17:57. > :18:03.There was a god man in India who enjoys a lot of support. He had
:18:04. > :18:06.heard something odious about the survivor that she should have called
:18:07. > :18:09.her attacker 's brother and could have taken the name of God and she
:18:10. > :18:14.could have been saved so something must have been wrong with her
:18:15. > :18:22.character. You asked about rural India, he visited Peru ruled
:18:23. > :18:27.character. You asked about rural rural village. 500 women came armed
:18:28. > :18:29.with rotten tomatoes and they were saying loud and clear, you are
:18:30. > :18:35.telling women they shouldn't wear certain kinds of. If you are going
:18:36. > :18:40.to impose those rules on women then we will tell meant either they wear
:18:41. > :18:46.the traditional garb or else we will beat you up. This is rural women
:18:47. > :18:51.talking about the right of young girls to wear jeans and use mobile
:18:52. > :18:55.phones. The encouraging thing to see is women aren't looking to be
:18:56. > :19:01.rescued in India, they are fighting back. We hope women fighting
:19:02. > :19:08.patriarchy elsewhere will try to interrogate their patriarchy is,
:19:09. > :19:13.rather than doing the easy thing of only recognising the patriarchy that
:19:14. > :19:19.lies here in India or Afghanistan. I see what you're saying but I am
:19:20. > :19:26.aware that people watching this might think that it's not quite as
:19:27. > :19:31.bad as it is in India. In recent survey said that India is the worst
:19:32. > :19:37.country in the world to be female. They look that different
:19:38. > :19:52.assessments. They claimed it was worse than Saudi Arabia. That seems
:19:53. > :19:55.very hard to give credibility to you or credence because you have had a
:19:56. > :19:58.female Prime Minister. In the 1970s, one of the most famous leaders the
:19:59. > :20:00.world has seen. You have women chief ministers. You have a substantial
:20:01. > :20:02.number of women politicians in leading positions. You have female
:20:03. > :20:08.professionals and eight powerful feminist movement. You can have that
:20:09. > :20:13.in Saudi Arabia. I think you could have some of that. You simply could
:20:14. > :20:19.not by law have that in Saudi Arabia. That's a different thing.
:20:20. > :20:24.The law means less to me than what it means about voices that are
:20:25. > :20:28.resisting patriarchy everywhere. The singling out of India or Saudi
:20:29. > :20:39.Arabia or Afghanistan isn't helpful in a way. We are fighting in India.
:20:40. > :20:44.What we need to interrogate is how... The help I would expect is
:20:45. > :20:48.the global institutions implicated in violence in India, multinational
:20:49. > :20:52.corporations coming here and women are resisting land grab our our
:20:53. > :20:57.subject to sexual violence. When you talk of the explication that comes
:20:58. > :21:04.with global capitalism I'm reminded that you are not just a women
:21:05. > :21:07.activists but also a senior figure in the Communist Party and I get a
:21:08. > :21:12.sense of that. Isn't there a contradiction for you, because the
:21:13. > :21:22.sort of India that you want to see is in some ways a more western or
:21:23. > :21:25.capitalist society. You focus on gender equality, individual
:21:26. > :21:33.liberties, in no way suggesting you might want to see India become more
:21:34. > :21:37.Westernised. I know our opponents on the Right would like to see this in
:21:38. > :21:41.terms of westernisation and Indianise Asian. I don't think
:21:42. > :21:46.that's the case. You want to see them become more westernised? When I
:21:47. > :21:56.see our right wing leaders talking about good rate and bad rape, I
:21:57. > :22:02.hear... Just answer my question. Do you see India, at your vision for
:22:03. > :22:07.India 's future becoming more westernised? I don't want to see our
:22:08. > :22:10.leaders make the remarks that Republican leaders in the US make.
:22:11. > :22:15.They talk about genuine and fall straight. I am trying to make the
:22:16. > :22:20.point that this is not about westernisation. They have odious
:22:21. > :22:23.attitudes also. They are told, if you were drunk, perhaps you aren't
:22:24. > :22:31.in a position to say yes or no to rape. You have that elsewhere. This
:22:32. > :22:35.is not about... It is about recognising specifically Indian ways
:22:36. > :22:41.in which patriarchy is justified. The way patriarchy is embodied here.
:22:42. > :22:47.We are fighting those ways. I don't see it being about making a backward
:22:48. > :22:53.India go the Western way. I see this as being a global fight against
:22:54. > :22:57.patriarchal attitudes and the systems, economic attitudes and so
:22:58. > :23:01.on that sustain it. A global fight. You could say you are embarking on a
:23:02. > :23:07.long and difficult journey. I wonder whether you believe, whether you
:23:08. > :23:11.have faith that the journey will get you to the place you want to be in
:23:12. > :23:17.terms of gender relations. You asked me at the start, what other changes
:23:18. > :23:21.you see and the real changes I see and that I appreciate is that I
:23:22. > :23:26.believe the fight is a long and hard won but the number of fighters here
:23:27. > :23:32.in India has expanded in the voices fighting have become stronger. We
:23:33. > :23:42.don't feel as alone as we once might have. The number of people joining
:23:43. > :23:52.the conversation is encouraging and I hope it happens outside India as
:23:53. > :23:54.well. Kavita Krishnan we have to end their, thank you. --there.