:00:00. > :00:10.a picture has never been easier for UKIP. Now on BBC News it's time for
:00:11. > :00:13.Hardtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Steven Sackur. We all take
:00:14. > :00:17.photographs but very few of us capture images which come to define
:00:18. > :00:30.a generation. One of those legendary photographers joins me today, David
:00:31. > :00:33.Bowie. `` Bailey. In the 60s, he captured the vitality, the sexiness
:00:34. > :00:36.and the rebel spirit of the age in black and white. Over five
:00:37. > :00:39.successive decades, he has conjured up iconic images of models, rock
:00:40. > :01:04.stars and even gangsters. But what do his pictures say about him?
:01:05. > :01:17.David, welcome to HARDtalk. Stephen. It seems like you have been
:01:18. > :01:21.getting a buzz out of taking pictures from when you were a
:01:22. > :01:24.teenager to this very day. How do you describe the buzz you get? It is
:01:25. > :01:33.something I do, I can't help it. I do what I do and I don't know why. I
:01:34. > :01:39.mean, I don't know why do it, I just do it. I like doing it. I do other
:01:40. > :01:42.things too. But you are known for your camera work. What intrigues me
:01:43. > :01:44.is that you came from a background, a working`class family, your dad was
:01:45. > :01:48.a tailor, where photography, presumably, was not discussed at
:01:49. > :01:53.home much. And yet, for some reason you were attracted to it. I want to
:01:54. > :02:01.know why. I guess because I am dyslexic. It was the best thing that
:02:02. > :02:05.ever happened to me. , second or third, if we want to be precise. I
:02:06. > :02:11.couldn't do anything else because I am completely uneducated. I left
:02:12. > :02:16.school at 15. The parting words from the headmaster were not positive. I
:02:17. > :02:27.could not spell. I was always taking the Mickey out of everything. I
:02:28. > :02:34.thought of was a bit. `` I thought of was at bit. When you got a camera
:02:35. > :02:40.in your hands, I know that you spent some time in the army. The Air
:02:41. > :02:44.Force. Doing some camerawork. Did you ever think, I could make the job
:02:45. > :02:49.out of this? No I never thought like that. I hate the idea of doing a job
:02:50. > :02:52.or career. You just do what you do. I have always painted as well. I
:02:53. > :03:02.still paint. I have got enough enemies in photography though. I
:03:03. > :03:06.guess it was Hollywood movies. We used to go to the movies maybe... At
:03:07. > :03:14.least five times a week because it was cheaper to go to the movies. It
:03:15. > :03:20.was cheaper to go to the movies than to put a shilling in the gas meter
:03:21. > :03:23.and keep warm. My mum and my sister and I used to go to the movies with
:03:24. > :03:26.bread and jam sandwiches and orange juice and watch movies. Sometimes,
:03:27. > :03:30.they always had two movies and they used to loop them. So I became an
:03:31. > :03:34.expert on movies. And glamorous moving images? Not particularly
:03:35. > :03:45.glamorous. I liked the film noir ones best. I like the lighting. I
:03:46. > :03:48.thought they were terrific. You are talking about post`war Britain when
:03:49. > :03:50.the country was going through austerity. It was fairly dull and
:03:51. > :03:54.grey. But then, something happened as you became a young man and moved
:03:55. > :04:00.into your working life, you are at the cusp and maybe a pioneer in
:04:01. > :04:03.changing photography. You got involved in fashion photography,
:04:04. > :04:11.magazines and you did it in a way that really had not been done
:04:12. > :04:19.before. A few other people went in that direction. There is always a
:04:20. > :04:23.feeling somewhere. You know, there is a feeling for things. You do
:04:24. > :04:26.something and you think it is original and then you see someone
:04:27. > :04:29.else has done it. There is this kind of collective unconsciousness or
:04:30. > :04:32.whatever it is that people seem to move in that direction. Let's look
:04:33. > :04:37.at an image. One of the famous, fairly early pictures you took. A
:04:38. > :04:40.picture of a model, it is all about selling the clothes she is wearing
:04:41. > :04:46.but actually, the image itself and the way you portrayed her cause a
:04:47. > :04:53.massive stir. What were you thinking? It is bit of a silly
:04:54. > :05:01.picture. It is almost surreal because the girl is kneeling on the
:05:02. > :05:09.floor talking to a stuffed squirrel. Which is quite bizarre. LAUGHTER One
:05:10. > :05:17.of my friends said, did you do that on purpose or was it an accident? I
:05:18. > :05:24.actually did do it on purpose. But wasn't it Terence Donovan who said
:05:25. > :05:31.you know what, you have taken a picture there that will change
:05:32. > :05:36.everything. That is what he said. You've just spoilt my answer. Why do
:05:37. > :05:39.you think that that was changing the way that fashion photography works?
:05:40. > :05:42.The whole world thought it. Terry did not, he was pretty smart. That's
:05:43. > :05:50.all I can say, really. It was actually before the New York being
:05:51. > :05:54.with Jean. Jean Shrimpton. This model was great, she was from
:05:55. > :06:03.London. She had a working`class accent, that never went down well
:06:04. > :06:08.with the magazine. Isn't that the very point? That you shook this
:06:09. > :06:20.world up. The fashion world, it used to be very formal and demure. The
:06:21. > :06:23.photographers, and indeed the models, were often quite high`class,
:06:24. > :06:27.doing it as a useful hobby. You shook this world. The fashion world
:06:28. > :06:31.was... I don't know how I got into it. Like a pea getting into a pea
:06:32. > :06:41.can. I had been used to being treated as an idiot at school. You
:06:42. > :06:51.had a London accent when most people around you were posh. OK, the two
:06:52. > :06:54.guys that help me most was John French, a photographer. I worked
:06:55. > :07:02.with him as an assistant. Then I mucked around for a few months, and
:07:03. > :07:06.he was gay. And they were outsiders, so I was an outsider as well. And
:07:07. > :07:09.then John Parsons who was the art director of British Vogue at the
:07:10. > :07:15.time and had drug problems, he was gay too. So I think it was like
:07:16. > :07:21.those two guys helped me enormously because we were all outsiders in a
:07:22. > :07:24.strange way. And I thought it was their way of poking back. I don't
:07:25. > :07:30.know. They are both dead, unfortunately. But those two guys, I
:07:31. > :07:33.mean I have never been gay. I was a kid at school and there was a
:07:34. > :07:36.teacher who was always trying to kiss me but you couldn't tell anyone
:07:37. > :07:44.in those days. The headmaster would not believe you. You told your
:07:45. > :07:48.mother, she would kill him. Far from being gay, it does strike me that
:07:49. > :07:52.you said once I think, I never cared much for fashion it, was the girls I
:07:53. > :07:56.liked. You do seem to have found a way of using your charisma to get
:07:57. > :08:00.women, both to model for you in a new way but also a lot of the women
:08:01. > :08:23.were seduced by you in a literal sense. They seduced me too. I don't
:08:24. > :08:30.know. I want to get to the nature of the relationship. With these women,
:08:31. > :08:35.who you were photographing, and sometimes turning into stars? Do you
:08:36. > :08:39.want the truth? OK. The only way you can be vaguely creative and get paid
:08:40. > :08:41.for it, vaguely get paid, was to do fashion pictures because it was
:08:42. > :08:44.quite creative. No other type of photography was created under you
:08:45. > :08:55.wanted to go somewhere and get shot at which I did not fancy. And so, it
:08:56. > :09:01.was the only way... It was nothing to do with the women. It was that
:09:02. > :09:05.you could make creative images and get paid for it. Otherwise, you
:09:06. > :09:10.ended up doing pictures of cars or still lifes of food which did not
:09:11. > :09:13.interest me. But I think you once said, and this is something that
:09:14. > :09:17.strikes me as very interesting, you said, "I sometimes hate what I am
:09:18. > :09:20.doing to the girls because it turned them from human beings into objects
:09:21. > :09:31.and they come to believe that how I photograph them is the way they
:09:32. > :09:42.are". It gives me a terrific feeling of power. I said that years ago when
:09:43. > :09:46.I was 25. That was in the early 60s. I have said lots of stupid things!
:09:47. > :09:51.Maybe that is not stupid, maybe that is true. That you were turning girls
:09:52. > :09:55.into objects. But only the stupid ones believed it. The girls I worked
:09:56. > :10:08.with a lot like Jean Shrimpton, Anjelica Huston. They were all... We
:10:09. > :10:16.have a picture here of Marie Helvin. She was a beautiful young American
:10:17. > :10:20.model. You worked with her very early in her career, when I think
:10:21. > :10:23.she was barely 20 and you ended up marrying her. And then she wrote a
:10:24. > :10:27.memoir much later which she described her life with you. People
:10:28. > :10:31.do look back on the way that men behaved. Powerful men in the 60s and
:10:32. > :10:39.70s. And say I do not know how I did it or how I got away with it. It's
:10:40. > :10:42.WH Auden. It is a time and place. You can't be judged by today's
:10:43. > :10:45.standards on those standards. It was a completely different world. It was
:10:46. > :10:48.a different attitude. Women would be getting undressed while they were
:10:49. > :10:57.saying "no, I don't want to do this". So you work it out. Don't
:10:58. > :11:10.tell me that men still don't do it or women still don't do it. Women
:11:11. > :11:13.still don't do it. But the attitude in society particularly amongst
:11:14. > :11:20.women has made it much less acceptable for them to behave in
:11:21. > :11:28.that way. To behave in what way? Well, to use power... I didn't use
:11:29. > :11:35.power. You think I was like a Hollywood mogul? You really think I
:11:36. > :11:40.used my power that way? You're mad. You can't promise something like
:11:41. > :11:43.that. It wouldn't even enter my mind. It was just a normal
:11:44. > :11:46.relationship. I was just fortunate to be able to be surrounded by
:11:47. > :11:49.beautiful women. You have been attacked over the years by
:11:50. > :11:56.feminists. Well, especially the 70s feminists. They're still around,
:11:57. > :12:02.some of them. They weren't about feminism. They were about hatred. Of
:12:03. > :12:05.you? Of men. Let me get away from the dynamic of you and the women you
:12:06. > :12:34.are photographing, and think about the imagery of women.
:12:35. > :12:37.wonder whether you look back on what happens, in the period after the
:12:38. > :12:43.early 60s, and worry about the way women have been portrayed? No. I
:12:44. > :12:49.can't see much difference between what I did and what they did in the
:12:50. > :12:52.renaissance. What is the difference? The editor of Vogue is leading a
:12:53. > :12:55.campaign to get glossy magazines, and our general culture, away from
:12:56. > :13:08.the idea that attractive women have to be stick thin. Opening to a wider
:13:09. > :13:14.range of female looks. It is about selling frocks. The
:13:15. > :13:22.camera puts ten or 15lbs on anybody. It is the way that the animal is. It
:13:23. > :13:25.has nothing to do with saying all skinny women are beautiful. You
:13:26. > :13:33.could say Botticelli started it with Venus coming out of the sea. She was
:13:34. > :13:37.a skinny as anything around now. And there was nothing wrong with her.
:13:38. > :13:43.Let me talk to you about how you get to the real essence or spirit of the
:13:44. > :13:46.subjects that you have photographed. You are famous for iconic pictures
:13:47. > :13:52.not just of beautiful women, but a range of rock stars, movie stars,
:13:53. > :13:58.Jagger, Nicholson. You are so typical about what I do. You dismiss
:13:59. > :14:02.everything. You have tunnel vision. Fashion is the least interesting
:14:03. > :14:09.thing I've ever done in my life. Well let's look at this one then.
:14:10. > :14:14.This isn't fashion. This is an image of the Kray twins. You spent quite a
:14:15. > :14:26.lot of time with them. More with Reg than Ronnie. These
:14:27. > :14:36.were two of London's most violent criminals. What was it like spending
:14:37. > :14:49.time with them? It is difficult. Time and place. You didn't come from
:14:50. > :14:53.the East End, obviously. But you didn't have too many choices in
:14:54. > :14:59.life. People don't have too many choices. Like the Indian police for
:15:00. > :15:08.example. They are earning ?10 a week. So if they earn ?500 to look
:15:09. > :15:12.the other way, that is just the human condition. It is where you are
:15:13. > :15:17.from. It is the time and place you exist.
:15:18. > :15:19.What I am interested in is how you got these brothers, who were
:15:20. > :15:24.infamous for their violence. They posed for you. That is the way you
:15:25. > :15:30.took photographs. You got to know them first. How did that process
:15:31. > :15:35.work for you? Given who they were, and what you knew about them?
:15:36. > :15:38.I come from quite a tough background anyway. I wasn't unaware of gangs
:15:39. > :15:42.and things. I was beat up myself quite a few times. Didn't you
:15:43. > :15:49.discover that Ron had actually attacked your own father?
:15:50. > :15:59.I only discovered that recently. My aunt who was 87 knew about it. I did
:16:00. > :16:02.not know about it. I don't know. Another interesting thing you said
:16:03. > :16:10.is that you actually fall in love with your subject. For the time you
:16:11. > :16:15.are with them, and photographing them, it is a sort of intense
:16:16. > :16:22.relationship. They are the sun in your world. For as long as you have
:16:23. > :16:26.them where you are photographing them, I am wondering whether you can
:16:27. > :16:29.do your job and come away with a photograph you are happy with with
:16:30. > :16:35.somebody that you dislike, or don't connect with?
:16:36. > :16:46.Yes, of course. It is to do with humanity and who we are. You can't
:16:47. > :16:50.ignore one thing and be blind to it. It won't go away. If anything, I did
:16:51. > :16:57.everyone a favour by making them famous. If you are a real gangster,
:16:58. > :17:04.no`one knows who you are. Their big mistake was probably posing for me.
:17:05. > :17:07.The ultimate celebrities, or the most famous people you could
:17:08. > :17:18.imagine, are the royals. You worked with Diana.
:17:19. > :17:22.She was a very nice woman. But let's be honest with ourselves. Putting
:17:23. > :17:30.things in perspective, she and Charles weren't a fairytale prince
:17:31. > :17:38.and princess. I don't put royalty in books. It is most people put
:17:39. > :17:42.royalties in books are trying to sell the book.
:17:43. > :17:51.I wonder whether, we talked earlier about your roots, has that come into
:17:52. > :17:56.play in who you like to photograph? And who doesn't really turn you on
:17:57. > :18:00.in terms of the subjects? I have photographed every politician
:18:01. > :18:05.there is at the moment. It is that interesting? How are our
:18:06. > :18:11.politicians? The most interesting to work with
:18:12. > :18:16.was Margaret Thatcher. If I was going to photograph her I was happy.
:18:17. > :18:22.She was charming, professional, and helpful.
:18:23. > :18:29.Not long ago I interviewed a photographer called Giles Duley. He
:18:30. > :18:36.used to work in the world of drama, fashion, and celebrity. He then got
:18:37. > :18:43.fed up with it and couldn't do it any more. It did not mean enough to
:18:44. > :18:46.him. He ended up working with NGOs and working in Afghanistan, in very
:18:47. > :18:59.tough conditions. You have done some of that work too. If we look at this
:19:00. > :19:12.picture here. I believe it was connected with Band`Aid. You went
:19:13. > :19:26.out to Sudan. When you go there and do that kind of work does it fit?
:19:27. > :19:29.You feel people do it with you? You are so associated with the 60s, that
:19:30. > :19:35.in a sense people still link you with that time in that place. You
:19:36. > :19:38.have done 40 years more work. Michelangelo, most people think of
:19:39. > :19:51.the Sistine Chapel. He's a ceiling painter. But that was the thing he
:19:52. > :19:56.did least. Everyone remembers him for the wrong reasons. You don't
:19:57. > :19:59.expect people to remember you. There was a surrealist who on his deathbed
:20:00. > :20:14.said nobody understood me. Except one man. And he didn't really
:20:15. > :20:18.understand. So that is your life. Do you think that you haven't been
:20:19. > :20:22.understood? I suspect that you think I haven't understood your work. I
:20:23. > :20:25.think you went down a funny avenue sticking up for those silly
:20:26. > :20:31.feminists in the 70s. But what you are saying is did I glamorise Sudan.
:20:32. > :20:39.You have done so much. What is that you are proudest of? I don't do
:20:40. > :20:46.proud. I think proud is silly. Why would I be proud? It is what I do. I
:20:47. > :20:55.can paint pictures, make movies and make sculptures. I can't change
:20:56. > :21:05.that. I do it because I do it. Your friend, another famous photographer,
:21:06. > :21:07.here is a bit of his poetry. He said one thing that unites the great
:21:08. > :21:09.photographers is that their pictures, no matter what they are
:21:10. > :21:18.photographing, are really portraits of themselves. Do you think that is
:21:19. > :21:20.true? You could say that about painters
:21:21. > :21:26.too. But in the context of you? I am not
:21:27. > :21:35.talking about literally the people you are photographing. But the
:21:36. > :21:43.spirit behind the photograph. I like spirits. They laugh and don't take
:21:44. > :21:47.life that seriously. But if we look at all of your work,
:21:48. > :21:53.how would you say it captures your character?
:21:54. > :21:59.Nobody has ever seen all of my lifetime. This is not a
:22:00. > :22:05.retrospective. This thing at the National Portrait Gallery is
:22:06. > :22:08.portraits I have taken. But journalists, in their great
:22:09. > :22:16.intelligence, always say that it is a retrospective. They had to have
:22:17. > :22:19.labels to put on it. I would be interested to know whether there is
:22:20. > :22:26.something that this show captures about you that you can put into
:22:27. > :22:30.words? If I had to think about that, I don't think I would do it. I would
:22:31. > :22:37.leave it to other people. Critics in the Financial Times or something
:22:38. > :22:41.like that. I just do what I do. If people like it...and if they dislike
:22:42. > :22:47.it, tough on me and tough on them. Because maybe were both missing
:22:48. > :22:56.something. There is a yin and yang in life. It's been a pleasure having
:22:57. > :23:23.you on the programme. Don't tell porkies.
:23:24. > :23:31.Bank holiday Monday is upon us and it's looking unsettled. There will
:23:32. > :23:32.be sunshine and showers around and for much of the week, there