:00:14. > :00:22.Welcome to HARDtalk. Today's interview comes from the grandeur of
:00:23. > :00:26.the British Foreign Office. From this building, foreign secretaries
:00:27. > :00:32.of the past have projected real power across the world. What about
:00:33. > :00:39.today? My guess is the current Foreign Secretary, William Hague.
:00:40. > :00:42.So, in Syria, in Afghanistan, how successful, how influential is
:00:43. > :01:04.today's British foreign policy? Foreign Secretary William Hague,
:01:05. > :01:09.welcome to HARDtalk. Like you. Let me start with the situation in
:01:10. > :01:16.Syria. The conflict has cost 130,000 lives, the violence shows no sign of
:01:17. > :01:21.ending. How acutely do you feel a sense of failure that the outside
:01:22. > :01:26.world has, in essence, been able to do nothing to stop that violence? We
:01:27. > :01:31.should all feel a sense of failure, the international community, the UN
:01:32. > :01:35.to duty council has failed in its possibilities as I have told it on
:01:36. > :01:39.at least one occasion when I have been there. The world should have
:01:40. > :01:45.been able to do more about this. It hasn't been able to do so with a
:01:46. > :01:50.divided UN Security Council, the big constraint. What we do it everything
:01:51. > :01:55.we can to mitigate the crisis, push it towards a solution. The UK is the
:01:56. > :02:02.second biggest donor of humanitarian aid. We all have to promote the
:02:03. > :02:05.political solution required. It points to impotence. I sat in this
:02:06. > :02:09.room with you a couple of years ago, when the death toll was in the
:02:10. > :02:14.thousands, not hundreds of thousands. You said this cannot
:02:15. > :02:21.continue. In particular, President Bashar al-Assad cannot can --
:02:22. > :02:26.continue. He is not enough it and you look impotent. Actually, the
:02:27. > :02:30.world has been impotent. The UN Security Council has been divided.
:02:31. > :02:32.Had it not been per that, this crisis could have been more
:02:33. > :02:40.successfully addressed. Without that, remedies are against
:02:41. > :02:44.international law or don't command international support. So you and
:02:45. > :02:50.the international community count for nothing? It means there has to
:02:51. > :02:55.be unity internationally, in order to impose solutions on anyone. That
:02:56. > :02:59.has not been there and is still not there. There is sufficient unity to
:03:00. > :03:04.bring them together, to make sure there is an attempt going on for a
:03:05. > :03:09.political solution. Russia has played an important role. Western
:03:10. > :03:15.countries have played an important role in getting the opposition to be
:03:16. > :03:19.there, to play a constructive part so far in the Geneva negotiations.
:03:20. > :03:25.We have to do that rather than be able to say, here we have resolved
:03:26. > :03:31.the crisis ourselves. But does that process in Geneva and surrounding
:03:32. > :03:36.the chemical weapons elimination, does that simply not play into a
:03:37. > :03:43.sad's hands. He has the de facto acknowledgement of people like you,
:03:44. > :03:50.he still remains the legitimate leader of this -- Syria, and you do
:03:51. > :03:55.business with him. The last thing you would want is for him to walk
:03:56. > :04:01.away from the table. There needs to be a political settlement in the
:04:02. > :04:07.end. Neither side will militarily conquer the country. There has to be
:04:08. > :04:14.a political settlement. Hang on, why can't a sad win? What's to say,
:04:15. > :04:19.given the situation today, and a couple of years ago when his tenure
:04:20. > :04:27.looked fragile, what's to say Assad in his own mind can't be saying to
:04:28. > :04:33.himself, I can win this? He can't win because 130,000 people have
:04:34. > :04:38.died, his country has been torn apart. Nobody can lead a country
:04:39. > :04:45.after that has happened on his watch. It is not possible for a sad,
:04:46. > :04:49.even supporters of a sad but had to calculate, it is not possible for
:04:50. > :04:55.him to lead a united Syria ever again after these events. There was
:04:56. > :04:59.going to be a military victory for either side. There has to be at some
:05:00. > :05:04.point a political solution involving some elements of the regime and
:05:05. > :05:09.opposition. That is what is set out in the first Geneva communique. In
:05:10. > :05:16.the meantime, you say Geneva is the only game in town. Someone your own
:05:17. > :05:20.side, the Conservative MP Brooks Newmark who has followed this
:05:21. > :05:25.closely, he says the problem with the Geneva talks is a sad cynically
:05:26. > :05:30.calculates he can write now get away with more atrocities. We have seen
:05:31. > :05:35.hundreds of deaths from barrel bombs, he can get away with this
:05:36. > :05:39.because no one wants to see the regime leave that the negotiating
:05:40. > :05:45.table. That's the truth. There are many problems for the opposition,
:05:46. > :05:49.which we must understand. To come to the Geneva talks when these
:05:50. > :05:54.atrocities continue. Barrel bombs are being dropped, people are being
:05:55. > :05:58.starved. It is very difficult for them to come under these
:05:59. > :06:04.circumstances. Which means we have to do everything we can to alleviate
:06:05. > :06:11.that situation. That is why we need humanitarian access. We are all
:06:12. > :06:15.pressuring Russia. Then at least some progress can be made in these
:06:16. > :06:20.talks. There is no getting away from the fact it is the duty of all the
:06:21. > :06:24.fuss, including all of us on the Security Council, to promote
:06:25. > :06:28.political dialogue and a political settlement. That is what we are
:06:29. > :06:34.trying to do. I will talk about humanitarian aid
:06:35. > :06:38.in a moment. A final thought on the conflict and the British politics --
:06:39. > :06:44.policy. You were giving limited assistance last year, to rebel
:06:45. > :06:51.forces. You then stopped giving that aid because a couple of warehouses
:06:52. > :06:55.were taken over by jihadi Islamists. The Americans did the
:06:56. > :07:00.same thing but they have now opened up the supply lines again in the
:07:01. > :07:02.last few days to rebel forces. Will you do that?
:07:03. > :07:08.We want to be able to do that and there was a good chance. I am not
:07:09. > :07:13.making an announcement about that today. We want to be confident where
:07:14. > :07:17.our assistance goes even though it is non-lethal assistance. We need
:07:18. > :07:25.that confidence to be able to resume supplies. The Americans seem to have
:07:26. > :07:30.that confidence. We all have to make our own judgement. Alistair Burt
:07:31. > :07:34.said that right now Britain should be arming the rebels it believes to
:07:35. > :07:39.be the moderates because he says, without doing that, there is a
:07:40. > :07:45.fundamental disadvantage to those forces who are taking on Assad. We
:07:46. > :07:50.wouldn't be able to do that. There wouldn't be a majority in our
:07:51. > :07:55.Parliament for that. It would require the majority of MPs to
:07:56. > :08:03.support that. Would you personally support it? We have never judged it
:08:04. > :08:07.would be right to do so. You don't? We would need such confidence about
:08:08. > :08:13.what would happen to lethal supplies. I hope we can presume
:08:14. > :08:20.supplies of non-lethal weapons. I have said we are ready to do that.
:08:21. > :08:24.It is part of our duty to keep a moderate opposition in being,
:08:25. > :08:39.however we can. Different countries can help in different ways.
:08:40. > :08:44.have a political solution. Is your greatest fear, not of Assad staying
:08:45. > :08:47.in power, but Syria becoming a breeding ground for Islamist
:08:48. > :08:56.terrorists who might bring their terror to the UK? Those things go
:08:57. > :09:01.together. Assad has been the chief recruiting sergeant in effect for
:09:02. > :09:07.extremism. It is the conditions he has produced in Syria that has made
:09:08. > :09:12.it a place that has attracted extremism and again this is why...
:09:13. > :09:16.Is that your greatest fear when you look at Syria today? My answer to
:09:17. > :09:22.the question about priorities is, you have to tackle both at the same
:09:23. > :09:26.time. Which is why we have to keep a moderate opposition in being. There
:09:27. > :09:31.is no point falling for the government rhetoric that we have
:09:32. > :09:34.just got to be dinner with extremists. It is not possible to do
:09:35. > :09:42.that successfully without a solution in Syria. Assad is the great
:09:43. > :09:47.obstacle to that. It is his policies producing the extremism. This
:09:48. > :09:51.conversation seems to be going around in circles. Saying and
:09:52. > :09:56.impotence, that in essence is what you seem to be saying. Tony Blair
:09:57. > :10:02.said, Syria is becoming a breeding ground of extremism more dangerous
:10:03. > :10:08.than Afghanistan in the 1990s. Do you share that sentiment? It is
:10:09. > :10:13.difficult to compare one country and one period with another. I wouldn't
:10:14. > :10:19.put it exactly like that. It is certainly the fastest growing threat
:10:20. > :10:23.to international security. There are many hundreds of foreign fighters
:10:24. > :10:29.who have gone there. They may be a danger to many dangers including the
:10:30. > :10:33.UK. At some point, intervention will have to be back on the table. It was
:10:34. > :10:38.taken off the table last summer but it will have to come back if you
:10:39. > :10:43.believe what you have told me? That would be the case if we all thought
:10:44. > :10:47.that intervention would solve the problem. And if there was sufficient
:10:48. > :10:52.democratic political support in Western countries to do that. Any
:10:53. > :10:58.observer would have to seriously question that. We have to deal it --
:10:59. > :11:04.deal with it in all the possible ways we can. Does it keep you up at
:11:05. > :11:10.night, the fact as we talked through Syria, there is absolutely no good
:11:11. > :11:16.option, indeed everything we say is about how terrible, awful, and
:11:17. > :11:21.acceptable, the situation is? This, sadly, is what foreign policy is
:11:22. > :11:28.like. The choice of lesser evils, mitigating consequences. There are
:11:29. > :11:37.some areas where we can aspire to higher ideals. Does it keep you up
:11:38. > :11:43.at night? This is a hugely preoccupying crisis. We haven't, the
:11:44. > :11:49.world has failed, you are right, the world has completely failed to
:11:50. > :11:55.resolve it. The UK has a very strong record in helping the people
:11:56. > :12:07.affected by it. Assist in Lebanon, Jordan. We are feeding a third of a
:12:08. > :12:10.million people a day. Germany for example has agreed to take more than
:12:11. > :12:17.10,000 of the most seriously injured people. Few countries can compete
:12:18. > :12:22.with what the United Kingdom has done. He wouldn't quarrel with those
:12:23. > :12:29.figures on how many Syrians, the most badly affected, tortured, some
:12:30. > :12:36.rate, abused in terrible ways, we say you will take a few hundred. I
:12:37. > :12:46.haven't set a figure. You won't commit to a figure. Germany had
:12:47. > :12:49.taken 10,000. The United Kingdom has given nearly $1 billion of
:12:50. > :12:53.assistance, it is one of the most generous nations in the world. There
:12:54. > :12:58.are a million people getting water a day because of us, a third of a
:12:59. > :13:02.million getting medical consultations. We are a big hearted
:13:03. > :13:06.and generous nation and showing it again in this crisis and will go on
:13:07. > :13:11.showing it. The situation of the Syrian people is desperate, getting
:13:12. > :13:17.worse. We have to get more of the aid I have been describing into the
:13:18. > :13:23.besieged parts of Syria, that is one of our priorities. I was struck with
:13:24. > :13:27.your words, you said, so much of foreign policy making is dealing
:13:28. > :13:31.with terrible intractable problems, and finding the least worst
:13:32. > :13:35.solution. I guess that would apply to Afghanistan. How did you react
:13:36. > :13:42.when you saw the newspaper article this last weekend in which the
:13:43. > :13:47.President of Afghanistan was asked by British journalists, with the
:13:48. > :13:52.situation in Helmand have been better if British troops had not
:13:53. > :13:56.gone in? His answer, one word, yes. How did you feel about that? We
:13:57. > :14:02.don't agree with that, that was a regrettable thing to say. I note
:14:03. > :14:05.that the Afghan spokesman has distanced himself from that and
:14:06. > :14:11.President Karzai has underlined his feelings and sympathies for the
:14:12. > :14:16.families of British personnel. One mother of a frozen British soldier
:14:17. > :14:22.said, it was disgusting, he might as well have spat on my son's grave. I
:14:23. > :14:29.am pleased certain corrective statements have been made. This is a
:14:30. > :14:36.man we still have thousands of troops propping up... Doing a vital
:14:37. > :14:41.and proper -- vital job. But how can we tolerate that if you said it
:14:42. > :14:44.would have been better if we hadn't been in his province. President
:14:45. > :14:48.Karzai has often spoken to me and the Prime Minister about what
:14:49. > :14:54.Afghanistan owes to the United Kingdom, the British troops. He made
:14:55. > :15:06.that clear when he came here to the United Kingdom. He had chipped
:15:07. > :15:07.visitors? -- duplicitous. How would you characterise your
:15:08. > :15:16.reaction? It is something which has to do be
:15:17. > :15:20.put right and we need them to continue to do so. I don't want to
:15:21. > :15:26.put words into your mouth but were you outrage? I am going to put it in
:15:27. > :15:33.my own way, I am pleased I have heard him say positive and different
:15:34. > :15:36.things. You have not heard him say sorry for that article. I wonder if
:15:37. > :15:41.you have been on the phone and had a very frank exchange with him? We
:15:42. > :15:44.have many frank exchanges with him, not since then. He has made clear
:15:45. > :15:49.some different things since then, and that is important. Do you worry
:15:50. > :15:53.about what happens after this deadline set by the United States
:15:54. > :15:58.and other NATO forces still there, saying they will all be out by the
:15:59. > :16:05.end of 2014? I have spoken to Robert Gates who thinks that is going to
:16:06. > :16:08.lead to a very difficult situation post-poll out. Another senior
:16:09. > :16:13.general has talked about AIDS danger of a new civil war -- talked about
:16:14. > :16:19.the danger of a new civil war inside Afghanistan. Are you confident that
:16:20. > :16:25.all troops can come out and Afghanistan can still be secured? We
:16:26. > :16:29.have said we will end combat at the end of 2014. Decisions have still to
:16:30. > :16:34.be made by the United States and others about forces that remain. We
:16:35. > :16:39.want to leave a residual British force? We have said we will run the
:16:40. > :16:45.officer training academy in Afghanistan. That is one form of a
:16:46. > :16:50.continuing British presence. We are also very committed to the funding
:16:51. > :16:55.of the Afghans' own forces, as many other forces are. Britain will be
:16:56. > :17:01.present in many ways but we will end a combat role at the end of 2014,
:17:02. > :17:05.that has been clear for some years. Decisions by the United States are
:17:06. > :17:08.held up by the failure of Afghanistan to sign the bilateral
:17:09. > :17:14.security agreements with the United States. We hope that they get on and
:17:15. > :17:20.sign and ratify that agreement. Sorry to interrupt, setting that
:17:21. > :17:26.deadline for the end of 2014 was a terrible mistake, wasn't it? Not at
:17:27. > :17:31.all, it is a very necessary process. It plays into the hands of
:17:32. > :17:34.the Taliban. They can watch and wait and they know that come the end of
:17:35. > :17:39.2014, the battlefield will be theirs. They also need to know that
:17:40. > :17:46.the Afghan security forces in that time have been built up enormously.
:17:47. > :17:52.General Dunford, the ISA chief, says the Afghan security forces not ready
:17:53. > :17:58.to be self-sustaining until 2014. They have led most military
:17:59. > :18:00.operations in recent months including in Helmand, they have
:18:01. > :18:07.acquitted themselves extremely well and they are going to receive more
:18:08. > :18:11.than $4 billion a year of financial support in order to make sure they
:18:12. > :18:18.continue to be able to do that. If we hadn't set a deadline, a time, I
:18:19. > :18:21.think it would have been very difficult to persuade Afghans to
:18:22. > :18:27.take on that responsibility. They have known that there will be a time
:18:28. > :18:31.from the end of 2014 when they take on fully that responsibility, they
:18:32. > :18:35.have been getting ready for that for the last two to three years. This
:18:36. > :18:39.has been our objective in Afghanistan. That Afghanistan is
:18:40. > :18:43.able to provide for its own security, and it has been necessary
:18:44. > :18:47.to put a time on that. Is there any part of you that fears that the
:18:48. > :18:55.Afghan strategy over the last 13 years or so is actually failed? When
:18:56. > :18:59.you look at Afghanistan today and compare it to 13 years ago, and the
:19:00. > :19:02.danger it presented some of the people who were there and what they
:19:03. > :19:06.were doing presented to the rest of the world, that has been dealt with
:19:07. > :19:14.to a very large degree. We are safer, the world, the UK, European
:19:15. > :19:17.countries, the United States, many other countries are safer from
:19:18. > :19:22.events in Afghanistan now than then. It would not be right to say the
:19:23. > :19:27.policy in Afghanistan had failed. Do we have fears for future
:19:28. > :19:30.instability? Of course. But that is why we are committed to the
:19:31. > :19:37.development and support of the Armed Forces. To make sure Afghanistan can
:19:38. > :19:40.look after its own affairs. We don't have so much time left and there is
:19:41. > :19:46.a couple of more important policy areas I want to get through. One is
:19:47. > :19:50.Israel-Palestine. The Americans are going to blitz their plan for a two
:19:51. > :19:57.state solution very soon -- publish their plan. John Kerry warned that
:19:58. > :20:06.if they intensify the push for peace, it will intensify calls for a
:20:07. > :20:15.do you see Israel's isolation becoming more complete? He is right
:20:16. > :20:20.to warn about that and I have warned Israeli leaders that the world will
:20:21. > :20:26.see this as a last chance on a two state solution. I really pay tribute
:20:27. > :20:31.to John Kerry and the energy and commitment that he has put into
:20:32. > :20:37.this. Many observers will say, if it doesn't work, but if John Kerry,
:20:38. > :20:42.with all of the weight of the United States, his experience and
:20:43. > :20:49.standing, cannot bring the two sides together to reach final status
:20:50. > :20:54.agreements, then who can? In talking of isolation of Israel, Kerry put
:20:55. > :20:59.Israeli government ministers' backs up. One said in response to carry's
:21:00. > :21:04.words, Kerry is holding a gun to Israel's head. Is the EU, with its
:21:05. > :21:08.own boycott of Israeli businesses that have operations in occupied
:21:09. > :21:16.territory, is the EU putting a gun to Israel's head? We don't have
:21:17. > :21:22.boycotts, have guidelines. You are blocking loans and grants... That is
:21:23. > :21:26.a different thing from a boycott. Nobody is putting a gun to
:21:27. > :21:30.anybody's head. What the EU is offering with our strong support is
:21:31. > :21:34.an unprecedented package of economic partnership and assistance, to work
:21:35. > :21:43.with Israelis and Palestinians, if this is successful. If it is not, is
:21:44. > :21:46.the EU going to go further? If it doesn't happen, if there isn't
:21:47. > :21:51.agreement on these things, it will be a very dark time, both for
:21:52. > :21:57.Israelis and Palestinians, for both sides, actually. There are terrible
:21:58. > :22:00.consequences to fear. Certainly it would bring a great deal of
:22:01. > :22:05.international pressure on Israel, including at the United Nations.
:22:06. > :22:10.There will be many moves for Palestinians to seek rate a
:22:11. > :22:12.recognition at the UN, which would command a huge rat of international
:22:13. > :22:21.support -- to seek greater recognition. From Britain? Britain
:22:22. > :22:26.has not committed itself. The situation will be difficult for
:22:27. > :22:31.Israel but for our destiny and is as well. Without embracing a two state
:22:32. > :22:36.solution and achieving one, their situation would be pretty desperate
:22:37. > :22:40.as well. A final thought goes back to the beginning, we talked about a
:22:41. > :22:43.sense of failure. You were Frank, you said the entire international
:22:44. > :22:49.committee has failed the people of Syria. Are you at a point in your
:22:50. > :22:53.political career, having served the best part of four years in the
:22:54. > :22:56.Foreign Office, where the difficulties of getting things done,
:22:57. > :23:00.and that sense that there is so much you would like to do and simply
:23:01. > :23:04.can't do given the realities of international affairs, it gets to a
:23:05. > :23:09.point where it grinds you down and you don't want to do it any more?
:23:10. > :23:12.No, no. This is British diplomacy and all the ministers are very
:23:13. > :23:18.busily, positively engaged in what we are doing. This year I am going
:23:19. > :23:21.to host the most important summit ever held on preventing sexual
:23:22. > :23:26.violence in conflict, which is one of those areas where I think we can
:23:27. > :23:30.achieve a lot that improves the condition of humanity. Next week I
:23:31. > :23:33.am going to host the conference here on preventing the illegal wildlife
:23:34. > :23:38.trade. There is not only a moral outrage but it is now funding
:23:39. > :23:42.criminal and terrorist gangs. The United Kingdom is going to host the
:23:43. > :23:47.NATO summit later this year in Wales, which will be a key moment to
:23:48. > :23:52.set the future of NATO, after all the things we have been discussing
:23:53. > :23:56.in Afghanistan. We are achieving a lot around the world, at the same
:23:57. > :24:01.time as expanding British diplomacy. By next year I will have opened 20
:24:02. > :24:06.new embassies and consulates. We are achieving a lot in the world,
:24:07. > :24:11.despite all these issues. We won't lose any energy here in the British
:24:12. > :24:15.Foreign Office. Right! We will leave that as the last word. We have to
:24:16. > :24:17.end there but thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you
:24:18. > :24:46.very much. 'Let's bring you the news...'
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