:00:00. > :00:00.make Victoria which is facing the worst conditions in five years. Now
:00:00. > :00:17.it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. It is nearly a
:00:18. > :00:22.year since a new Pope was installed but still the same problems dogged
:00:23. > :00:25.the Catholic Church. A committee on the rights of the child has
:00:26. > :00:31.criticised the Vatican over its failure to deal decisively with
:00:32. > :00:34.child sexual abuse by priests. Gay-rights activists still attacked
:00:35. > :00:37.the Churchward stands on homosexuality and the Vatican 's
:00:38. > :00:42.finances have been under scrutiny and investigation. Last year
:00:43. > :00:47.Cardinal Peter Turkson from Ghana was tipped to become the first black
:00:48. > :00:51.Pope and at 65 he is young enough still to achieve that. He is calling
:00:52. > :00:56.for financial reforms and action against poverty and inequality. But
:00:57. > :00:58.does the Catholic Church have the moral authority to take a lead on
:00:59. > :01:26.such issues? Cardinal Peter Turkson, welcome to
:01:27. > :01:32.macro three. Thank you why do you say that the financial crisis was
:01:33. > :01:37.part of a result of moral feelings? All financial transactions and
:01:38. > :01:42.financial instruments, it takes a moral decision. It involves
:01:43. > :01:50.decision-making and every decision-making is an expression of
:01:51. > :01:53.morale at you. That is why we can extend consideration to everything
:01:54. > :01:59.that happened then in an ethical way. You are advocating reform by
:02:00. > :02:03.creating a global public authority and a global bank that will
:02:04. > :02:11.consider, in particular, developing countries and their interests.
:02:12. > :02:15.Essentially, the poor, and they may well be from developing countries
:02:16. > :02:23.but even within developed countries, it is basically to have the
:02:24. > :02:33.financial system that we have, to think about the marginalised, those
:02:34. > :02:37.that it missed out. It is something that we can do, we can have an
:02:38. > :02:41.inclusive system of economics and finance so that everybody gets
:02:42. > :02:49.considered. That is very much the tone. He is a modest man who likes
:02:50. > :02:55.to use public transport and will not live in splendour. At the end of
:02:56. > :02:59.last year, in an exhortation, he said not to share your wealth with
:03:00. > :03:08.the poor is to steal from them and take away their livelihood. It is
:03:09. > :03:13.not our goods that we hold by the Bears. It sounds like Marxist
:03:14. > :03:20.doctrine. The social doctrine of the Church, which provides guidance for
:03:21. > :03:26.these operations and systems, is based on a couple of principles.
:03:27. > :03:31.Apart from the affirmation of the dignity of every human person which
:03:32. > :03:36.needs to be respected, there is much about the common good of people.
:03:37. > :03:43.That means that we should be concerned about the well-being of
:03:44. > :03:48.all of us. The Professor of economics at the University of
:03:49. > :03:54.Buenos ivories, says is this an invitation to confiscate the riches
:03:55. > :03:59.of the Vatican or is the Pope only referring to the riches outside of
:04:00. > :04:07.the Vatican? The Vatican is rich, isn't it? What does it mean, the
:04:08. > :04:12.Vatican is rich? Are you talking about the arts in the Vatican
:04:13. > :04:20.Museum? Are you talking about the wealth of the diocese is spread
:04:21. > :04:25.around the world? The Vatican made 90 million euros profit last year.
:04:26. > :04:35.On the contributions you get from people and so on. So if... The
:04:36. > :04:40.grandeur of the Catholic Church, the paintings, the fact that the Pope is
:04:41. > :04:44.effectively a head of state. So when somebody like that Professor makes
:04:45. > :04:50.the point it jars doesn't it? What the professor is overlooking is that
:04:51. > :04:54.the Vatican, as the head of the Catholic Church, supports over
:04:55. > :05:01.500,000 local churches around the world. These churches are not like
:05:02. > :05:08.those in London or New York. Churches where the pastors and the
:05:09. > :05:11.servants need to be supported. It is generally accepted that the aid
:05:12. > :05:16.distributed around the world is through the offices of Catholic
:05:17. > :05:22.agencies. You are not exactly a byword for fiscal prudence at the
:05:23. > :05:32.Vatican? You have had your problems there. When the EU money-laundering
:05:33. > :05:36.monitoring body reported, it gave a mixed report to the Vatican but
:05:37. > :05:44.expressed surprise that regulators had not carried out more inspections
:05:45. > :05:46.of the make Vatican Bank. There was an investigation in Italy because
:05:47. > :05:53.some Italian businesses may have used that bank as a tax haven or a
:05:54. > :06:01.fiscal paradise. This is something that we need to recognise. The
:06:02. > :06:06.Vatican Bank, some would prefer to rip that they prefer to refer to it
:06:07. > :06:12.as a financial institution, its presence in Italy, and the fact that
:06:13. > :06:22.it did what it did was tempting for people who wanted to escape, and so
:06:23. > :06:30.wanted to make use of the bank... Pope Francis does not know how the
:06:31. > :06:39.scandal will end. It can end if, for example, the bank has a mixed staff,
:06:40. > :06:42.from different parts of the world. They cannot be predominantly Italian
:06:43. > :06:47.or some local group. If you have a mix of staff, that can be dealt
:06:48. > :06:54.with. But to accept that there is a problem and that when you go about
:06:55. > :06:59.and talk about... This is a problem for everybody. The financial
:07:00. > :07:03.crisis, people look over your shoulder and wonder. There is no
:07:04. > :07:12.denying the fact that an institution this old with structures this old
:07:13. > :07:17.they have gathered moss. It is just fair enough to recognise that. Just
:07:18. > :07:25.as we have, in the history of the Church, we are very familiar with
:07:26. > :07:29.abuses and individual rights and challenging the Church to clean up
:07:30. > :07:34.certain things. Whether you take it in the form of saints who agitate
:07:35. > :07:42.for reform, or something about -- or something else, we know. There is no
:07:43. > :07:47.human institution without failures. Looking at you personally, would it
:07:48. > :07:51.be say that you are liberal on social and economic justice but
:07:52. > :07:58.fairly orthodox on social matters like homosexuality? We are using
:07:59. > :08:04.vocabulary which have attained meaning in different areas. In what
:08:05. > :08:08.sense would you consider me liberal? You ask for an equitable
:08:09. > :08:14.distribution of wealth. That would just be responsive to the social
:08:15. > :08:19.concerns of the Church. What about being responsive to the concerns of
:08:20. > :08:21.people who have the kind of sexuality that the Church does not
:08:22. > :08:29.particularly condoned, particularly homosexuals. When Uganda discussed
:08:30. > :08:33.its anti-gay bill, you said that the intensity of the reaction about gay
:08:34. > :08:40.matters is probably commensurate with tradition. What do you mean? In
:08:41. > :08:45.several traditional societies in Africa, there is nothing about the
:08:46. > :08:51.same sex relations, they are not reckoned with. They are taboo. They
:08:52. > :08:57.were not tolerated in society. That is what it means. It is still there.
:08:58. > :09:05.Nigeria also legislated against this. It is a reflection of this
:09:06. > :09:10.traditional sense. You say, let's understand that. The tormenting,
:09:11. > :09:16.persecuting, imprisoning, killing of gay people in countries which is
:09:17. > :09:23.going on in Africa, let us understand that? I am just
:09:24. > :09:28.asking... When somebody comes asking about Wei group of people act in a
:09:29. > :09:32.special way, it would be good to have people to understand the
:09:33. > :09:38.anthropology is behind that. It is not the same as saying that it is
:09:39. > :09:43.justifiable or whatever else. But how can you try to end the
:09:44. > :09:52.persecution of gay people and tolerated elsewhere. If a group of
:09:53. > :09:59.people in society, place such a high premium on childbirth as a source of
:10:00. > :10:05.increase of the local population and because in those local societies
:10:06. > :10:12.that suffer so much, infant mortality is so high, for a
:10:13. > :10:15.community like that increasing its membership is hugely important.
:10:16. > :10:22.Therefore when any lives cannot do that it is problematic. What about
:10:23. > :10:34.female genital mutilation? Also deeply embedded. You going to say,
:10:35. > :10:41.let understand that? What is necessary to understand, I mean,
:10:42. > :10:44.there is nobody that can understand the future of the world without
:10:45. > :10:49.having a certain amount of historical understanding. That
:10:50. > :10:53.understanding easy to consider the situation now and only then can you
:10:54. > :10:59.say, in the light of what we know, are was still going to go on in this
:11:00. > :11:03.way? That's where you make the decision. It sounds like you're
:11:04. > :11:08.trying to explain and to some extent excuse those practices. Explanation
:11:09. > :11:14.is not the same as justification, there is a difference in that. When,
:11:15. > :11:18.for example, we are talking about this, let's talk about the slave
:11:19. > :11:23.trade. It is something that happened. In that time in history,
:11:24. > :11:32.people found reason to do that. But we condemn it. You are not
:11:33. > :11:37.condemning for example... You have said that Africa's hostility to
:11:38. > :11:43.homosexuality will protect it from child sex abuse. You have been
:11:44. > :11:53.criticised for saying that, Cardinal, because you are conflating
:11:54. > :11:59.two things. It is not conflated. It is people moving between lines of
:12:00. > :12:05.argument and thinking. All of this started when a gentleman came to me
:12:06. > :12:08.asking about this and they said, this is the situation, the rights of
:12:09. > :12:16.these people need to be safeguarded and respected. But then the
:12:17. > :12:22.questions about why we have certain African communities that do this,
:12:23. > :12:26.this is a traditional viewpoint. Saying that does not mean that we
:12:27. > :12:31.must hang on to that viewpoint. It is useful for an outsider to
:12:32. > :12:40.understand why people can have that view. You must regret conflating the
:12:41. > :12:44.two. The English Archbishop said that homosexuality is irrelevant to
:12:45. > :12:50.the child abuse problem. We've been very careful to keep the two issues
:12:51. > :12:55.well apart. I accept that. Talking about child sexual abuse, we have
:12:56. > :13:00.just had the publication of the report by the UN, which has been
:13:01. > :13:04.interrogating Vatican officials about child sexual abuse, which has
:13:05. > :13:08.been a huge scandal overshadowing the Catholic Church. To take one
:13:09. > :13:12.example, it says that it wants the Vatican to open its files on the
:13:13. > :13:23.kind of child sex abuse that has gone on. Why won't the Vatican do
:13:24. > :13:32.that? Why won't the Vatican be more transparent about the child sexual
:13:33. > :13:35.abuse cases listed Mark we may not readily conclude -- readily conclude
:13:36. > :13:40.that the Vatican keeps files on sex abuse around the world. The Vatican
:13:41. > :13:57.recognises the need for help for all of the victims. Shown interest in
:13:58. > :14:02.cool operating to help victims of sexual abuse. If there are files on
:14:03. > :14:11.any of these, they can be found in the Darya sees. That is where the
:14:12. > :14:20.perpetrators are to be found. --dioces. But the fact it can can
:14:21. > :14:24.say, we want to see the finals. -- Vatican. People want an answer for
:14:25. > :14:29.the question, does the church report abuses by Chris to the secular law
:14:30. > :14:37.enforcement authorities in the country 's? That that they do
:14:38. > :14:42.definitely. But that is not the reports we have seen. We have heard
:14:43. > :14:47.about parish priests being moved on to another parish and even to
:14:48. > :14:53.another country. When we get to talking about this, a certain amount
:14:54. > :14:55.of understanding is to be... The Vatican WriteNow, with the
:14:56. > :15:01.understanding it has obvious problem, has agreed to col operate
:15:02. > :15:07.with any body set up for this. -- cooperate. It recognises civil
:15:08. > :15:13.authorities of wherever a priest lives, ensures they are responsible
:15:14. > :15:22.and in charge of this. Any perpetrator or anyone who abuses a
:15:23. > :15:26.child to face the State of wherever he is. But the arguments are not
:15:27. > :15:29.convincing because this report has just been issued and it says that
:15:30. > :15:35.the Church has implemented policies that have led to the continuation of
:15:36. > :15:46.the abuse and the impunity and perpetrators. They have investigated
:15:47. > :15:54.this. What are the policies? (CROSSTALK) I go back and refer to
:15:55. > :16:00.certain history. This is the case, the reporters and those who made the
:16:01. > :16:04.report, for those of you who would understand, certainly, with the
:16:05. > :16:10.passage of time, our understanding of this phenomenon on has increased
:16:11. > :16:17.and changed. There was a time that when bishops got cases of priest
:16:18. > :16:24.being abusive of children, they thought it could be dealt with by
:16:25. > :16:30.taking the person for treatment at a centre. Based on our understanding
:16:31. > :16:37.at that time, they thought the issue could be done with and taken care of
:16:38. > :16:41.by certain priests... That's how they do it. How do you do it now, do
:16:42. > :16:50.you remove priests from their church? No. The situation has
:16:51. > :16:54.improved and it is recognised that a treatment centre doesn't quite deal
:16:55. > :17:02.with the issue. The understanding has changed. What do you do? Bishops
:17:03. > :17:08.don't transfer priests... Do you remove them from their post in the
:17:09. > :17:19.church? They will not. Will they be removed? Removed means... Will they
:17:20. > :17:23.be removed from their post? Yes they will and when they do that the dish
:17:24. > :17:31.has the new process to go through. If the feeling is that he will be
:17:32. > :17:36.later sized, he will be. I think a bishop will want to help the priest
:17:37. > :17:40.himself. Do you think categorically, now, all the
:17:41. > :17:49.criticism you have had from victim support groups, like the director
:17:50. > :17:53.of... We must insist on tangible action to help vulnerable children
:17:54. > :18:00.and protect their bodies. Not vague pledges that protect the reputation
:18:01. > :18:06.of this institution. Can I ask you cardinal, is the church ready once
:18:07. > :18:10.and for all to take steps to ensure that never again will a child be
:18:11. > :18:15.abused by a member of the Catholic Church -- clergy and if they are,
:18:16. > :18:25.will you take action? The answer is yes. It was not obliged to sign up
:18:26. > :18:32.to this it accepted to do it. They have made it clear, they said that
:18:33. > :18:38.the protection of children is the top. It set up a commission in the
:18:39. > :18:49.Vatican headed Ivy Archbishop of Boston, -- by the, to ensure this is
:18:50. > :18:55.taken care of in due order with regard for due legal... Where you
:18:56. > :19:01.have members and victims support groups on this panel? -- will use.
:19:02. > :19:07.Sure, there are experts on that. Do you accept that critics have said
:19:08. > :19:13.and the issue of sexuality and the church 's few on abuse has
:19:14. > :19:23.overshadowed the good work the Catholic Church does all over the
:19:24. > :19:28.world? It hasn't... Has it overshadowed? With due respect for
:19:29. > :19:34.victims of abuse who need to be helped in all senses and in all
:19:35. > :19:42.cases, that has certainly been the case, that the good work of the
:19:43. > :19:51.church has been overshadowed in Finch is only by this, is true. In
:19:52. > :19:59.the intestinal. But the church attaches great importance to the
:20:00. > :20:07.well-being of the is. Good work doesn't need to be... It is like the
:20:08. > :20:12.view you have, you don't it out at the same time. Talking of good
:20:13. > :20:19.work, the good work the church should be engaged in, interfaith
:20:20. > :20:25.dialogue is very important. You haven't contributed much to this
:20:26. > :20:28.have you smack arguably, you have operated to the detriment of good
:20:29. > :20:34.interfaith dialogue between Muslims and Christians. That's not true.
:20:35. > :20:38.When I was in Ghana, before I came to the Vatican, I was the president
:20:39. > :20:46.of the world Congress for religious peace, and my vice president was a
:20:47. > :20:53.Muslim. He might be in London at this time for a conference.
:20:54. > :20:57.Subsequently, I was the head of a peace Council whose vice president
:20:58. > :21:04.was Muslim. Can explain why I put to you, because when I put that -- in
:21:05. > :21:11.2012 you showed a you Tube video called Muslim Demographics. It was
:21:12. > :21:15.alarmist. The video said that by 2050 fronts will be an Islamic
:21:16. > :21:29.republic and there are those of you -- Frantz. You were criticised...
:21:30. > :21:34.That video clip was sent to me by another bishop. The title in the
:21:35. > :21:42.mail did not say that. The title of the video clip that was sent to me
:21:43. > :21:49.was demographic problems. I was using it to demonstrate demographic
:21:50. > :21:57.albums in Europe. You are being alarmist, saying they would be more
:21:58. > :22:03.Muslims in future. This is what I am trying to say. It was a
:22:04. > :22:11.demonstration of the low fertility weight -- fertility rate and the
:22:12. > :22:14.concern was that... The contraceptive culture of western
:22:15. > :22:21.Europe compared with Muslims breeding, that is alarmist. That's
:22:22. > :22:25.not the point. When the local population drops, it means that any
:22:26. > :22:34.newcomer into that society will not be well received. It was to ensure
:22:35. > :22:45.that the birth rate in Europe does not lead to... How can you show this
:22:46. > :22:49.kind of you Tube clip. You are a senior cardinal. You should have
:22:50. > :22:56.access to better advice than that. That is the case. Because I trusted
:22:57. > :23:04.another bishop who sent me that. As I tried to say, it was not... You
:23:05. > :23:13.should have checked it. I should have trusted the source -- checked
:23:14. > :23:21.the source. You will have to be careful in the future. How can you
:23:22. > :23:24.go without trusting people? Do you think these controversies we have
:23:25. > :23:36.discussed have dented your chances of ever becoming the first black
:23:37. > :23:47.Pope? This has never been my vision or desire. I just want to be of
:23:48. > :23:53.service to God 's people. It is not a question of a chance for it chance
:23:54. > :23:56.for this or that, that's not an issue for me. Cardinal Peter Turkson
:23:57. > :24:18.thank you for coming onto HARDtalk. Some dry weather through the week
:24:19. > :24:24.ahead. The news does not yet much better. -- get. Still spells of
:24:25. > :24:25.heavy rain at times. Ahead. Still spells of heavy rain and more