:00:00. > :00:07.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:08. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Two years after its birth as
:00:17. > :00:23.a nation, South Sudan is in danger of tearing itself apart. Weeks of
:00:24. > :00:25.bloody clashes between government forces loyal to the President and
:00:26. > :00:29.rebels who are backing the former vice president have left 10,000 dead
:00:30. > :00:37.and three quarters of a million people homeless. My guest is South
:00:38. > :00:41.Sudan's 's Foreign Minister, Barnaba Marial Benjamin. Can peace talks
:00:42. > :01:05.salvage unity in the wreckage of a brutal power struggle?
:01:06. > :01:16.Barnaba Marial Benjamin, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It is
:01:17. > :01:20.great to have a representative of the South Sudan government. I want
:01:21. > :01:31.to begin by quoting words uttered by President Obama. Your country, South
:01:32. > :01:34.Sudan, he said the present is now is the time for the country's leaders
:01:35. > :01:40.to show courage and leadership. That is not happening, is it? Absolutely.
:01:41. > :01:43.Leadership has been shown. Within 30 days of the crisis, the government
:01:44. > :01:53.and rebels have been able to sign a cessation of hostilities. And the
:01:54. > :02:09.status of detainees. That is important if it means anything. It
:02:10. > :02:13.is. It is important you get results after 20 years. But here you are, a
:02:14. > :02:16.young state, two old going into a crisis and 30 days later, we have an
:02:17. > :02:19.agreement. The 23rd of January ceasefire signed, we have had
:02:20. > :02:23.violent, killings of civilians and the most terrible atrocities since
:02:24. > :02:26.the 23rd of January. We now have a situation where the rebels say they
:02:27. > :02:28.will not attend the peace talks because they accuse the government
:02:29. > :02:32.forces of persistent violations. The government is absolutely committed.
:02:33. > :02:39.To see that peace and stability come to the people. We have gone into
:02:40. > :03:00.this completely committed to the cessation of hostilities. We are
:03:01. > :03:04.observing that because the President of the Republic of South Sudan, who
:03:05. > :03:07.is the commander in chief of the SPLA, has what the command and
:03:08. > :03:10.control. On our side, side,...It is the rebels who are been breaking the
:03:11. > :03:13.ceasefire. You could not be more blunt about the President being the
:03:14. > :03:17.man in charge of the armed forces so we must then hold him responsible
:03:18. > :03:20.for the fact that on February the first, your armed forces went into
:03:21. > :03:22.Leer in the north of the country and according to many witnesses and
:03:23. > :03:26.sources, burned down buildings, attacked civilians and left the town
:03:27. > :03:39.in ruins. And that was nine days after the ceasefire. That is
:03:40. > :03:42.probably not correct. You must know that the country has got one
:03:43. > :03:45.sovereignty. An elected democratic government has its constitutional
:03:46. > :03:58.mandate. It doesn't have a mandate to attack hospitals. Not at all. I
:03:59. > :04:02.do not think so. Are you seriously proposing to me that the 80
:04:03. > :04:07.seriously ill people who were forced to flee into the bush from the
:04:08. > :04:11.hospital as government forces are approached it, burning and looting,
:04:12. > :04:18.are you suggesting that was staged by the rebels? The government is a
:04:19. > :04:22.responsible government that has authority to protect the lives of
:04:23. > :04:25.its citizens and its infrastructure. Usually in a war situation where
:04:26. > :04:38.citizens are frightened and people run about, it cannot be true that
:04:39. > :04:41.the government would do that. You are making something complicated
:04:42. > :04:44.that is quite simple. It was the home town of Riek Machar, the leader
:04:45. > :04:46.of the opposition forces and former vice president. Government forces
:04:47. > :04:50.assaulted that town, there is no dispute about that. It was and is
:04:51. > :04:54.now proud to say they are in control. They are in control of the
:04:55. > :05:01.whole country. It is not an issue of control. Whether you allow a rebel
:05:02. > :05:04.group to control Brighton or London? When faced with a civil conflict,
:05:05. > :05:07.are you suggesting that it is legitimate for your armed forces to
:05:08. > :05:16.go into civilian areas to burn, to loot, rape, to murder as we have
:05:17. > :05:24.seen? I am saying the government forces have not raped or looted as
:05:25. > :05:28.you said. There are isolated cases. There are the rebels in the towns,
:05:29. > :05:41.they have a looted, raped and cause a loss of destruction. It is not the
:05:42. > :05:45.government. Let me tell you one thing, most of the rebel forces are
:05:46. > :05:58.still in government uniform in most of the cases. I can assure you that
:05:59. > :06:01.the government soldiers cannot engage in that process because these
:06:02. > :06:04.are responsible soldiers, trained by the government to protect the
:06:05. > :06:05.citizens of that country. Maybe they could be isolated cases. There are
:06:06. > :06:38.cases. You call them isolated. Let us focus specifically on the
:06:39. > :06:40.peace talks and the allegations that your government continues to use
:06:41. > :06:43.violence. That is one particular angle. That is the continued
:06:44. > :06:46.presence on your territory of between 1500 and 2000 heavily armed
:06:47. > :06:49.Ugandan troops. Why are they there? They were there as part of an
:06:50. > :06:52.African task force that consisted of the SPLA, the Ugandan army with a
:06:53. > :07:04.contingent of American Marines. Can I finish? The Ugandan Air Force has
:07:05. > :07:08.been bombing rebel territory. There is no Ugandan air What aircraft did
:07:09. > :07:15.they use? Force bombing. They possess many aircraft and they have
:07:16. > :07:18.been using them. I would like to assure you that the presence of
:07:19. > :07:27.Ugandan forces were there in 2008 to get hold of the resistance Army. In
:07:28. > :07:31.fact, that is a function. Remember this, the Ugandan forces who were
:07:32. > :07:32.doing their duty, mandated by the African Union also assisted in
:07:33. > :07:45.securing important infrastructure and in Juba airport.
:07:46. > :07:54.It made important roads in securing infrastructure. I can only imagine
:07:55. > :07:57.your embarrassment if you insist that the Ugandan forces have been
:07:58. > :08:04.there since 2008 and their function has not changed. I can only imagine
:08:05. > :08:07.your embarrassment when out of Kampala, the Ugandan Defence Force
:08:08. > :08:17.spokesman issued the following statement last month. He said, the
:08:18. > :08:24.UPDF has captured Bor. No, Bor was captured by government forces. I am
:08:25. > :08:35.telling you as Foreign Minister, I am telling you the truth.
:08:36. > :08:53.I have explained the presence of Ugandan forces. Don't forget, South
:08:54. > :08:55.Sudan is an independent state, international law has the authority
:08:56. > :08:59.to make agreements with any other country. Something tells me you are
:09:00. > :09:02.not telling the truth. Unless it is the Ugandans. I can see your motive
:09:03. > :09:05.might be that you are thoroughly embarrassed. Not at all. We are
:09:06. > :09:08.happy that the Ugandan troops are in South Sudan. They have been there
:09:09. > :09:11.since 2008 doing important functions. During this incident,
:09:12. > :09:21.they were able to allow foreign nationals to be evacuated from the
:09:22. > :09:24.airport. They have had that credit for a function they have done in
:09:25. > :09:34.order to save lives. It was also possible for relief to be flown into
:09:35. > :09:38.Juba during a time of war. We should concentrate on the positive impact.
:09:39. > :09:41.You say that but so many colleagues of yours were talking to you, trying
:09:42. > :09:48.to resolve the terrible crisis in your country, take a very different
:09:49. > :09:51.view. The Norwegian Foreign Minister said the President of Uganda must
:09:52. > :10:01.start a process of pulling out his troops. There is a whole list of
:10:02. > :10:07.human rights groups that agree. They have accused the Ugandan Armed
:10:08. > :10:10.Forces of destroying South Sudan. The international community is
:10:11. > :10:16.insistent that Ugandan forces must leave. It is not that Ugandan troops
:10:17. > :10:23.are there. There are also United Nations troops in South Sudan. They
:10:24. > :10:29.are all foreign forces. They are not active as part of war. The Ugandan
:10:30. > :10:40.forces are. So you're not prepared to say that
:10:41. > :10:43.as part of this negotiation process in your country, you are not
:10:44. > :10:51.prepared to say that Ugandan forces will leave. We are saying Ugandan
:10:52. > :10:59.forces will not participate in any active war that the South Sudan
:11:00. > :11:08.republic is conducting. They are in the south Sudan for responsibility.
:11:09. > :11:11.They will definitely go back where they will continue to pursue the
:11:12. > :11:17.resistance Army. What about other mercenaries? The rebels say they
:11:18. > :11:28.have evidence of you using other rebel fighters on your side
:11:29. > :11:31.including people from Darfur. And the Democratic Republic of Congo. We
:11:32. > :11:37.are not involved in that. The rebel leader himself has been a vice
:11:38. > :11:42.resident since five months ago. He knows the truth about the issue of
:11:43. > :11:48.Darfur. There are no rebels from Darfur. He was indeed vice president
:11:49. > :11:58.until he was fired along with the entire cabinet of the time. Every
:11:59. > :12:01.single minister was removed. It is interesting, isn't it that Salva
:12:02. > :12:09.Kiir, your boss insists that he is a Democrat. That he wants to work by
:12:10. > :12:11.consensus and yet he fired his entire government and now,
:12:12. > :12:19.opposition politicians are locked up and facing treason charges. The
:12:20. > :12:31.reshuffle happens everywhere. It is a reshuffle! The government was
:12:32. > :12:36.eliminated. Not as a whole. He got rid of every minister. You are
:12:37. > :12:56.smiling because you got a job as a result of it. I was reappointed. You
:12:57. > :13:11.exhibited no loyalty. He decided the big tent was not working. Not all.
:13:12. > :13:23.The reshuffle is a normal democratic process. That would not engage in to
:13:24. > :13:32.any rebellion. I admire your... They were under suspicion. They were
:13:33. > :13:40.investigated. That is why they were released. Four senior politicians
:13:41. > :13:47.face treason charges. They are being investigated. For treason. The
:13:48. > :13:49.Minister of Justice will give the President the complete report of
:13:50. > :13:53.what that investigation should be if they are found there is no more
:13:54. > :13:58.evidence of what they are being investigated for they will be
:13:59. > :14:10.released. You say this is about a coup. One that was plotted by Doctor
:14:11. > :14:13.Riek Machar and his colleagues. Unfortunate for you that the
:14:14. > :14:22.Americans have concluded, we have not seen any evidence that this was
:14:23. > :14:25.a coup. Well, you know, in Africa, when someone tries to change a
:14:26. > :14:34.democratically elected government using force, it is described as a
:14:35. > :14:37.coup. That's what it is. When the President orders his guards to be
:14:38. > :14:47.disarmed, how can that be considered a coup? That was an incorrect
:14:48. > :14:52.report. There was no truth to that. It was a concocted story. What
:14:53. > :15:01.happened was that there was an attempted coup by attacking the
:15:02. > :15:08.Presidential guards. It reverted into what you see today. Riek Machar
:15:09. > :15:14.claims he is the leader. If it was not the coup... He has never
:15:15. > :15:19.suggested this was a coup. He has denied it on every occasion. He says
:15:20. > :15:26.your President has turned himself into a dictator. What happened last
:15:27. > :15:29.summer was one sign that Riek Machar has no interest in democracy, he has
:15:30. > :15:38.become an authoritarian leader who is interested in ensuring his own
:15:39. > :15:43.power. -- Salva Kiir. This is the authority that gives him the power
:15:44. > :15:45.to reshuffle. It is not the numbers that determine whether you remove
:15:46. > :15:52.your government, a reshuffle is a reshuffle in any democratic
:15:53. > :15:59.government. The government is a collation of many parties. We have
:16:00. > :16:10.six other political parties who are our partners in this government.
:16:11. > :16:19.President Salva Kiir was nominated with a majority. It has to be said
:16:20. > :16:23.there is an ethnic element to what is happening in your country. We
:16:24. > :16:28.have talked about the personalities of Riek Machar and President Salva
:16:29. > :16:31.Kiir. Clearly, there are political differences. But there is an
:16:32. > :16:35.important ethnic distinction, and what we have seen in the last eight
:16:36. > :16:37.weeks also, increasingly, is hatred and violence between the Dinka
:16:38. > :16:49.community from which the President comes, and the Nuer community from
:16:50. > :16:52.which Riek Machar comes. You are a Nuer. You have seen armed forces go
:16:53. > :17:03.into Nuer neighbourhoods and kill civilians. Not just in the tens but
:17:04. > :17:09.in the hundreds. How do you feel about that? It was in Juba in
:17:10. > :17:12.particular. After the attacks, some of the most indiscriminate soldiers
:17:13. > :17:18.turned and attacked them, we don't deny that. They are being held
:17:19. > :17:32.accountable. An investigation continues. Over 100 people have been
:17:33. > :17:37.arrested. Let me finish. (CROSSTALK). How can you sit in a
:17:38. > :17:41.government where ethnic killings on a terrible scale have taken place?
:17:42. > :17:44.In some areas, including Nuer soldiers who are angry, this is a
:17:45. > :17:49.limited amount within the rebel forces. There is no real ethnic
:17:50. > :18:01.tension and killing between the citizens who are Dinka. That doesn't
:18:02. > :18:05.seem to represent the facts. If you look back, this didn't begin eight
:18:06. > :18:08.weeks ago, if you look at reports coming from Human Rights Watch in
:18:09. > :18:11.Africa, you will see a catalogue of allegations, in detail, of ethnic
:18:12. > :18:14.killings in which the South Sudan armed forces were implicated going
:18:15. > :18:17.back to May, June and July of last year, the very time in which you
:18:18. > :18:20.felt able to sit in the government as a senior minister. That is why
:18:21. > :18:23.the Government has taken the decision to form an investigation
:18:24. > :18:39.committee and hold these people accountable.
:18:40. > :18:44.We are talking about many months of the most serious allegations of
:18:45. > :18:51.crimes against humanity to put it bluntly.
:18:52. > :18:56.You as Foreign Minister sit in your office, seeing many of your own
:18:57. > :19:04.people being killed and don't appear to have a problem. Of course there
:19:05. > :19:07.is a problem. That is why the government I am in have taken
:19:08. > :19:13.serious steps to investigate these people and hold them accountable.
:19:14. > :19:23.That is the way to identify these elements and that is the right way
:19:24. > :19:27.to go about it. There is no other way but to hold them accountable.
:19:28. > :19:31.The government have been able to form a high level committee, led by
:19:32. > :19:35.the former chief justice, so these cases, where human rights are
:19:36. > :19:45.abused, are investigated. There is a responsibility. There is a
:19:46. > :19:48.government that condemns it. We condemn it strongly. We don't
:19:49. > :19:50.encourage ethnic crime. They will be held accountable. Lets think about
:19:51. > :19:54.the international context, your country is dependent on oil revenues
:19:55. > :20:03.to the extent of 80% of your GDP, and 98% of government revenue comes
:20:04. > :20:10.from oil. Production has fallen since the conflict began in mid-
:20:11. > :20:13.December. Can you tell the outside world that it is safe to invest and
:20:14. > :20:29.place resources in South Sudan today? This country is bigger than
:20:30. > :20:32.France. It's not only oil, you can think of any mineral, there is
:20:33. > :20:40.tremendous cultural potential. Extensive livestock. We have
:20:41. > :20:52.wildlife. (CROSSTALK). You also have 10,000
:20:53. > :20:55.killed. China looks at the situation in your country and they have poured
:20:56. > :21:01.billions, at least 8-10 billion, your real interests are deeply
:21:02. > :21:11.worried. The investment will come. That is why we are pursuing peace.
:21:12. > :21:14.To bring stability. We want resources in this territory to be
:21:15. > :21:21.used for the benefit of the people. I can assure people that South Sudan
:21:22. > :21:24.is a place for investment. One month ago, we had a successful economic
:21:25. > :21:27.conference conducted and I am sure the peace process is moving in a
:21:28. > :21:32.positive way and investment will come. China is guaranteed its
:21:33. > :21:38.investment. You fit the definition of a supreme optimist. The US envoy
:21:39. > :21:45.said there is only so much outside parties can do. Only so much, in the
:21:46. > :21:50.end, South Sudan needs to create more democratic institutions.
:21:51. > :22:00.Respect the rule of law, independent judiciary and a non- ethnic
:22:01. > :22:05.military. You don't respect your own constitution. We do indeed. I would
:22:06. > :22:08.invite you to come to South Sudan and have a feel on the ground rather
:22:09. > :22:17.than read reports that come from various sectors in the media. Seeing
:22:18. > :22:20.is believing. I can tell you it is a country that is two years old,
:22:21. > :22:27.trying to build its institutions. It needs to be supported, not punished.
:22:28. > :22:33.It needs help and assistance and that is what should come. Can you
:22:34. > :22:36.say to me the peace talks, that seem stalled, can and will yield an
:22:37. > :22:39.agreement where President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar will work together
:22:40. > :22:49.to get South Sudan out of the crisis? We have come a long way. Our
:22:50. > :22:51.people have suffered for so long. They have persevered with
:22:52. > :22:55.resilience. We will be able to resolve our differences and put the
:22:56. > :23:01.country back on the road once more. Barnaba Marial Benjamin, thank you
:23:02. > :23:28.for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you.
:23:29. > :23:32.Once again, we are looking at appalling weather for the UK during
:23:33. > :23:33.the rest