Barnaba Marial Benjamin - Foreign Minister, South Sudan

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:00:00. > :00:07.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

:00:08. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Two years after its birth as

:00:17. > :00:23.a nation, South Sudan is in danger of tearing itself apart. Weeks of

:00:24. > :00:25.bloody clashes between government forces loyal to the President and

:00:26. > :00:29.rebels who are backing the former vice president have left 10,000 dead

:00:30. > :00:37.and three quarters of a million people homeless. My guest is South

:00:38. > :00:41.Sudan's 's Foreign Minister, Barnaba Marial Benjamin. Can peace talks

:00:42. > :01:05.salvage unity in the wreckage of a brutal power struggle?

:01:06. > :01:16.Barnaba Marial Benjamin, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It is

:01:17. > :01:20.great to have a representative of the South Sudan government. I want

:01:21. > :01:31.to begin by quoting words uttered by President Obama. Your country, South

:01:32. > :01:34.Sudan, he said the present is now is the time for the country's leaders

:01:35. > :01:40.to show courage and leadership. That is not happening, is it? Absolutely.

:01:41. > :01:43.Leadership has been shown. Within 30 days of the crisis, the government

:01:44. > :01:53.and rebels have been able to sign a cessation of hostilities. And the

:01:54. > :02:09.status of detainees. That is important if it means anything. It

:02:10. > :02:13.is. It is important you get results after 20 years. But here you are, a

:02:14. > :02:16.young state, two old going into a crisis and 30 days later, we have an

:02:17. > :02:19.agreement. The 23rd of January ceasefire signed, we have had

:02:20. > :02:23.violent, killings of civilians and the most terrible atrocities since

:02:24. > :02:26.the 23rd of January. We now have a situation where the rebels say they

:02:27. > :02:28.will not attend the peace talks because they accuse the government

:02:29. > :02:32.forces of persistent violations. The government is absolutely committed.

:02:33. > :02:39.To see that peace and stability come to the people. We have gone into

:02:40. > :03:00.this completely committed to the cessation of hostilities. We are

:03:01. > :03:04.observing that because the President of the Republic of South Sudan, who

:03:05. > :03:07.is the commander in chief of the SPLA, has what the command and

:03:08. > :03:10.control. On our side, side,...It is the rebels who are been breaking the

:03:11. > :03:13.ceasefire. You could not be more blunt about the President being the

:03:14. > :03:17.man in charge of the armed forces so we must then hold him responsible

:03:18. > :03:20.for the fact that on February the first, your armed forces went into

:03:21. > :03:22.Leer in the north of the country and according to many witnesses and

:03:23. > :03:26.sources, burned down buildings, attacked civilians and left the town

:03:27. > :03:39.in ruins. And that was nine days after the ceasefire. That is

:03:40. > :03:42.probably not correct. You must know that the country has got one

:03:43. > :03:45.sovereignty. An elected democratic government has its constitutional

:03:46. > :03:58.mandate. It doesn't have a mandate to attack hospitals. Not at all. I

:03:59. > :04:02.do not think so. Are you seriously proposing to me that the 80

:04:03. > :04:07.seriously ill people who were forced to flee into the bush from the

:04:08. > :04:11.hospital as government forces are approached it, burning and looting,

:04:12. > :04:18.are you suggesting that was staged by the rebels? The government is a

:04:19. > :04:22.responsible government that has authority to protect the lives of

:04:23. > :04:25.its citizens and its infrastructure. Usually in a war situation where

:04:26. > :04:38.citizens are frightened and people run about, it cannot be true that

:04:39. > :04:41.the government would do that. You are making something complicated

:04:42. > :04:44.that is quite simple. It was the home town of Riek Machar, the leader

:04:45. > :04:46.of the opposition forces and former vice president. Government forces

:04:47. > :04:50.assaulted that town, there is no dispute about that. It was and is

:04:51. > :04:54.now proud to say they are in control. They are in control of the

:04:55. > :05:01.whole country. It is not an issue of control. Whether you allow a rebel

:05:02. > :05:04.group to control Brighton or London? When faced with a civil conflict,

:05:05. > :05:07.are you suggesting that it is legitimate for your armed forces to

:05:08. > :05:16.go into civilian areas to burn, to loot, rape, to murder as we have

:05:17. > :05:24.seen? I am saying the government forces have not raped or looted as

:05:25. > :05:28.you said. There are isolated cases. There are the rebels in the towns,

:05:29. > :05:41.they have a looted, raped and cause a loss of destruction. It is not the

:05:42. > :05:45.government. Let me tell you one thing, most of the rebel forces are

:05:46. > :05:58.still in government uniform in most of the cases. I can assure you that

:05:59. > :06:01.the government soldiers cannot engage in that process because these

:06:02. > :06:04.are responsible soldiers, trained by the government to protect the

:06:05. > :06:05.citizens of that country. Maybe they could be isolated cases. There are

:06:06. > :06:38.cases. You call them isolated. Let us focus specifically on the

:06:39. > :06:40.peace talks and the allegations that your government continues to use

:06:41. > :06:43.violence. That is one particular angle. That is the continued

:06:44. > :06:46.presence on your territory of between 1500 and 2000 heavily armed

:06:47. > :06:49.Ugandan troops. Why are they there? They were there as part of an

:06:50. > :06:52.African task force that consisted of the SPLA, the Ugandan army with a

:06:53. > :07:04.contingent of American Marines. Can I finish? The Ugandan Air Force has

:07:05. > :07:08.been bombing rebel territory. There is no Ugandan air What aircraft did

:07:09. > :07:15.they use? Force bombing. They possess many aircraft and they have

:07:16. > :07:18.been using them. I would like to assure you that the presence of

:07:19. > :07:27.Ugandan forces were there in 2008 to get hold of the resistance Army. In

:07:28. > :07:31.fact, that is a function. Remember this, the Ugandan forces who were

:07:32. > :07:32.doing their duty, mandated by the African Union also assisted in

:07:33. > :07:45.securing important infrastructure and in Juba airport.

:07:46. > :07:54.It made important roads in securing infrastructure. I can only imagine

:07:55. > :07:57.your embarrassment if you insist that the Ugandan forces have been

:07:58. > :08:04.there since 2008 and their function has not changed. I can only imagine

:08:05. > :08:07.your embarrassment when out of Kampala, the Ugandan Defence Force

:08:08. > :08:17.spokesman issued the following statement last month. He said, the

:08:18. > :08:24.UPDF has captured Bor. No, Bor was captured by government forces. I am

:08:25. > :08:35.telling you as Foreign Minister, I am telling you the truth.

:08:36. > :08:53.I have explained the presence of Ugandan forces. Don't forget, South

:08:54. > :08:55.Sudan is an independent state, international law has the authority

:08:56. > :08:59.to make agreements with any other country. Something tells me you are

:09:00. > :09:02.not telling the truth. Unless it is the Ugandans. I can see your motive

:09:03. > :09:05.might be that you are thoroughly embarrassed. Not at all. We are

:09:06. > :09:08.happy that the Ugandan troops are in South Sudan. They have been there

:09:09. > :09:11.since 2008 doing important functions. During this incident,

:09:12. > :09:21.they were able to allow foreign nationals to be evacuated from the

:09:22. > :09:24.airport. They have had that credit for a function they have done in

:09:25. > :09:34.order to save lives. It was also possible for relief to be flown into

:09:35. > :09:38.Juba during a time of war. We should concentrate on the positive impact.

:09:39. > :09:41.You say that but so many colleagues of yours were talking to you, trying

:09:42. > :09:48.to resolve the terrible crisis in your country, take a very different

:09:49. > :09:51.view. The Norwegian Foreign Minister said the President of Uganda must

:09:52. > :10:01.start a process of pulling out his troops. There is a whole list of

:10:02. > :10:07.human rights groups that agree. They have accused the Ugandan Armed

:10:08. > :10:10.Forces of destroying South Sudan. The international community is

:10:11. > :10:16.insistent that Ugandan forces must leave. It is not that Ugandan troops

:10:17. > :10:23.are there. There are also United Nations troops in South Sudan. They

:10:24. > :10:29.are all foreign forces. They are not active as part of war. The Ugandan

:10:30. > :10:40.forces are. So you're not prepared to say that

:10:41. > :10:43.as part of this negotiation process in your country, you are not

:10:44. > :10:51.prepared to say that Ugandan forces will leave. We are saying Ugandan

:10:52. > :10:59.forces will not participate in any active war that the South Sudan

:11:00. > :11:08.republic is conducting. They are in the south Sudan for responsibility.

:11:09. > :11:11.They will definitely go back where they will continue to pursue the

:11:12. > :11:17.resistance Army. What about other mercenaries? The rebels say they

:11:18. > :11:28.have evidence of you using other rebel fighters on your side

:11:29. > :11:31.including people from Darfur. And the Democratic Republic of Congo. We

:11:32. > :11:37.are not involved in that. The rebel leader himself has been a vice

:11:38. > :11:42.resident since five months ago. He knows the truth about the issue of

:11:43. > :11:48.Darfur. There are no rebels from Darfur. He was indeed vice president

:11:49. > :11:58.until he was fired along with the entire cabinet of the time. Every

:11:59. > :12:01.single minister was removed. It is interesting, isn't it that Salva

:12:02. > :12:09.Kiir, your boss insists that he is a Democrat. That he wants to work by

:12:10. > :12:11.consensus and yet he fired his entire government and now,

:12:12. > :12:19.opposition politicians are locked up and facing treason charges. The

:12:20. > :12:31.reshuffle happens everywhere. It is a reshuffle! The government was

:12:32. > :12:36.eliminated. Not as a whole. He got rid of every minister. You are

:12:37. > :12:56.smiling because you got a job as a result of it. I was reappointed. You

:12:57. > :13:11.exhibited no loyalty. He decided the big tent was not working. Not all.

:13:12. > :13:23.The reshuffle is a normal democratic process. That would not engage in to

:13:24. > :13:32.any rebellion. I admire your... They were under suspicion. They were

:13:33. > :13:40.investigated. That is why they were released. Four senior politicians

:13:41. > :13:47.face treason charges. They are being investigated. For treason. The

:13:48. > :13:49.Minister of Justice will give the President the complete report of

:13:50. > :13:53.what that investigation should be if they are found there is no more

:13:54. > :13:58.evidence of what they are being investigated for they will be

:13:59. > :14:10.released. You say this is about a coup. One that was plotted by Doctor

:14:11. > :14:13.Riek Machar and his colleagues. Unfortunate for you that the

:14:14. > :14:22.Americans have concluded, we have not seen any evidence that this was

:14:23. > :14:25.a coup. Well, you know, in Africa, when someone tries to change a

:14:26. > :14:34.democratically elected government using force, it is described as a

:14:35. > :14:37.coup. That's what it is. When the President orders his guards to be

:14:38. > :14:47.disarmed, how can that be considered a coup? That was an incorrect

:14:48. > :14:52.report. There was no truth to that. It was a concocted story. What

:14:53. > :15:01.happened was that there was an attempted coup by attacking the

:15:02. > :15:08.Presidential guards. It reverted into what you see today. Riek Machar

:15:09. > :15:14.claims he is the leader. If it was not the coup... He has never

:15:15. > :15:19.suggested this was a coup. He has denied it on every occasion. He says

:15:20. > :15:26.your President has turned himself into a dictator. What happened last

:15:27. > :15:29.summer was one sign that Riek Machar has no interest in democracy, he has

:15:30. > :15:38.become an authoritarian leader who is interested in ensuring his own

:15:39. > :15:43.power. -- Salva Kiir. This is the authority that gives him the power

:15:44. > :15:45.to reshuffle. It is not the numbers that determine whether you remove

:15:46. > :15:52.your government, a reshuffle is a reshuffle in any democratic

:15:53. > :15:59.government. The government is a collation of many parties. We have

:16:00. > :16:10.six other political parties who are our partners in this government.

:16:11. > :16:19.President Salva Kiir was nominated with a majority. It has to be said

:16:20. > :16:23.there is an ethnic element to what is happening in your country. We

:16:24. > :16:28.have talked about the personalities of Riek Machar and President Salva

:16:29. > :16:31.Kiir. Clearly, there are political differences. But there is an

:16:32. > :16:35.important ethnic distinction, and what we have seen in the last eight

:16:36. > :16:37.weeks also, increasingly, is hatred and violence between the Dinka

:16:38. > :16:49.community from which the President comes, and the Nuer community from

:16:50. > :16:52.which Riek Machar comes. You are a Nuer. You have seen armed forces go

:16:53. > :17:03.into Nuer neighbourhoods and kill civilians. Not just in the tens but

:17:04. > :17:09.in the hundreds. How do you feel about that? It was in Juba in

:17:10. > :17:12.particular. After the attacks, some of the most indiscriminate soldiers

:17:13. > :17:18.turned and attacked them, we don't deny that. They are being held

:17:19. > :17:32.accountable. An investigation continues. Over 100 people have been

:17:33. > :17:37.arrested. Let me finish. (CROSSTALK). How can you sit in a

:17:38. > :17:41.government where ethnic killings on a terrible scale have taken place?

:17:42. > :17:44.In some areas, including Nuer soldiers who are angry, this is a

:17:45. > :17:49.limited amount within the rebel forces. There is no real ethnic

:17:50. > :18:01.tension and killing between the citizens who are Dinka. That doesn't

:18:02. > :18:05.seem to represent the facts. If you look back, this didn't begin eight

:18:06. > :18:08.weeks ago, if you look at reports coming from Human Rights Watch in

:18:09. > :18:11.Africa, you will see a catalogue of allegations, in detail, of ethnic

:18:12. > :18:14.killings in which the South Sudan armed forces were implicated going

:18:15. > :18:17.back to May, June and July of last year, the very time in which you

:18:18. > :18:20.felt able to sit in the government as a senior minister. That is why

:18:21. > :18:23.the Government has taken the decision to form an investigation

:18:24. > :18:39.committee and hold these people accountable.

:18:40. > :18:44.We are talking about many months of the most serious allegations of

:18:45. > :18:51.crimes against humanity to put it bluntly.

:18:52. > :18:56.You as Foreign Minister sit in your office, seeing many of your own

:18:57. > :19:04.people being killed and don't appear to have a problem. Of course there

:19:05. > :19:07.is a problem. That is why the government I am in have taken

:19:08. > :19:13.serious steps to investigate these people and hold them accountable.

:19:14. > :19:23.That is the way to identify these elements and that is the right way

:19:24. > :19:27.to go about it. There is no other way but to hold them accountable.

:19:28. > :19:31.The government have been able to form a high level committee, led by

:19:32. > :19:35.the former chief justice, so these cases, where human rights are

:19:36. > :19:45.abused, are investigated. There is a responsibility. There is a

:19:46. > :19:48.government that condemns it. We condemn it strongly. We don't

:19:49. > :19:50.encourage ethnic crime. They will be held accountable. Lets think about

:19:51. > :19:54.the international context, your country is dependent on oil revenues

:19:55. > :20:03.to the extent of 80% of your GDP, and 98% of government revenue comes

:20:04. > :20:10.from oil. Production has fallen since the conflict began in mid-

:20:11. > :20:13.December. Can you tell the outside world that it is safe to invest and

:20:14. > :20:29.place resources in South Sudan today? This country is bigger than

:20:30. > :20:32.France. It's not only oil, you can think of any mineral, there is

:20:33. > :20:40.tremendous cultural potential. Extensive livestock. We have

:20:41. > :20:52.wildlife. (CROSSTALK). You also have 10,000

:20:53. > :20:55.killed. China looks at the situation in your country and they have poured

:20:56. > :21:01.billions, at least 8-10 billion, your real interests are deeply

:21:02. > :21:11.worried. The investment will come. That is why we are pursuing peace.

:21:12. > :21:14.To bring stability. We want resources in this territory to be

:21:15. > :21:21.used for the benefit of the people. I can assure people that South Sudan

:21:22. > :21:24.is a place for investment. One month ago, we had a successful economic

:21:25. > :21:27.conference conducted and I am sure the peace process is moving in a

:21:28. > :21:32.positive way and investment will come. China is guaranteed its

:21:33. > :21:38.investment. You fit the definition of a supreme optimist. The US envoy

:21:39. > :21:45.said there is only so much outside parties can do. Only so much, in the

:21:46. > :21:50.end, South Sudan needs to create more democratic institutions.

:21:51. > :22:00.Respect the rule of law, independent judiciary and a non- ethnic

:22:01. > :22:05.military. You don't respect your own constitution. We do indeed. I would

:22:06. > :22:08.invite you to come to South Sudan and have a feel on the ground rather

:22:09. > :22:17.than read reports that come from various sectors in the media. Seeing

:22:18. > :22:20.is believing. I can tell you it is a country that is two years old,

:22:21. > :22:27.trying to build its institutions. It needs to be supported, not punished.

:22:28. > :22:33.It needs help and assistance and that is what should come. Can you

:22:34. > :22:36.say to me the peace talks, that seem stalled, can and will yield an

:22:37. > :22:39.agreement where President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar will work together

:22:40. > :22:49.to get South Sudan out of the crisis? We have come a long way. Our

:22:50. > :22:51.people have suffered for so long. They have persevered with

:22:52. > :22:55.resilience. We will be able to resolve our differences and put the

:22:56. > :23:01.country back on the road once more. Barnaba Marial Benjamin, thank you

:23:02. > :23:28.for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you.

:23:29. > :23:32.Once again, we are looking at appalling weather for the UK during

:23:33. > :23:33.the rest