:00:00. > :00:08.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:09. > :00:12.A host of countries around the world still impose the ultimate punishment
:00:13. > :00:16.on the most serious criminals, death.
:00:17. > :00:19.What's it like to be in command of the machinery
:00:20. > :00:27.Today I'm going to get a rare insight from Allen Ault,
:00:28. > :00:29.who spent years running the correction facility
:00:30. > :00:41.He organised the killing of criminals until he could stand
:00:42. > :00:50.Now he's an opponent of the death penalty.
:00:51. > :01:11.Allen Ault, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:12. > :01:23.It's back in the 1990s that you were the Commissioner
:01:24. > :01:27.of Corrections in the US state of Georgia,
:01:28. > :01:30.and you were responsible for running the machinery of capital punishment.
:01:31. > :01:32.Is that experience still with you today?
:01:33. > :01:36.I still have nightmares, not every night, but on occasion
:01:37. > :01:58.It's the most premeditated murder possible.
:01:59. > :02:01.The manual is about that thick, and the preparation you go
:02:02. > :02:10.I can tell from your words already that this is seared into your soul,
:02:11. > :02:14.Let's start with how you got involved in this element
:02:15. > :02:17.As I understand it, you were a trained psychologist
:02:18. > :02:27.and you entered the world of corrections, the present system,
:02:28. > :02:30.believing that you were there to help and to rehabilitate.
:02:31. > :02:37.How on earth did you end up running death row and execution chambers?
:02:38. > :02:40.In the '70s, I'd never been into prison or jail,
:02:41. > :02:43.in Georgia they had a brand-new maximum security prison,
:02:44. > :02:47.called the Georgia Diagnostic Classification Center.
:02:48. > :02:53.The only problem was they didn't have a programme.
:02:54. > :02:56.They hired me to develop a diagnostic classification system
:02:57. > :02:59.They made me superintendent and warden of the institution.
:03:00. > :03:02.That was ultimately the institution and the facility that became
:03:03. > :03:08.Yes. Many years later.
:03:09. > :03:12.Listen, how did you get sucked into a system to the point where,
:03:13. > :03:14.having been a psychologist, having entered the system
:03:15. > :03:20.as somebody committed to rehabilitation, you ended up
:03:21. > :03:25.as the chief who was signing off on and running a system of death?
:03:26. > :03:30.In the early '70s, when I started in corrections, the death penalty
:03:31. > :03:34.was unconstitutional and then it was later,
:03:35. > :03:37.in '74, that Georgia wrote a new law that was determined to be
:03:38. > :03:44.constitutional by the US Supreme Court.
:03:45. > :03:47.But the actual executions didn't take place until many years
:03:48. > :03:49.later because of appeals.
:03:50. > :03:58.The first two that I executed had been on death row for 17 years.
:03:59. > :04:01.In fact they were 17 when they came in and they were 34
:04:02. > :04:06.Actually they were different individuals.
:04:07. > :04:10.Let's talk about the case because I think it is important
:04:11. > :04:15.The 17-year-old that you mentioned, I believe he was called
:04:16. > :04:18.Christopher Burger, he was of limited IQ.
:04:19. > :04:21.I think he scored something like 80 or so on the test,
:04:22. > :04:23.suggesting he was close to being mentally impaired.
:04:24. > :04:29.He ended up being involved in the kidnap, rape and murder
:04:30. > :04:35.As you say, he was on death row for 17 years, you got to know him.
:04:36. > :04:51.I visited when I was Commissioner, I visited death row on several
:04:52. > :04:53.occasions, I got to know him.
:04:54. > :04:56.This was the first warrant I had to execute someone.
:04:57. > :04:58.I went down to Jackson, about 40 miles from Atlanta,
:04:59. > :05:02.where central headquarters are, so I talked to him and other people
:05:03. > :05:06.So it wasn't just a matter of executing somebody that was...
:05:07. > :05:15.You said I think that you saw the change in him,
:05:16. > :05:23.to a man who, by the time he was approaching his end,
:05:24. > :05:25.you describe as being thoughtful and actually contrite.
:05:26. > :05:36.You know, to put it in psychological terms, when he committed the act
:05:37. > :05:41.he didn't have a fully developed frontal lobes
:05:42. > :05:43.which allowed you to make full decisions.
:05:44. > :05:51.And the other criminal involved in the crime was also juvenile.
:05:52. > :05:53.They were now adults, they had been on death row
:05:54. > :05:58.They had educated themselves while on death row.
:05:59. > :06:01.They had received a lot of counselling and other services
:06:02. > :06:12.while they were on death row, so they were different human beings.
:06:13. > :06:15.Christopher Burger's last words to you just before you gave
:06:16. > :06:22.to be pressed, were, "Please forgive me."
:06:23. > :06:24.As I executed others, many of which I found out went
:06:25. > :06:38.His was very simple, please forgive me.
:06:39. > :06:42.It was your responsibility to give the order.
:06:43. > :06:46.I was standing behind in another room with a glass,
:06:47. > :06:48.looking at the back of the electric chair.
:06:49. > :06:55.I was there with the Attorney General for the state of Georgia
:06:56. > :06:59.and we had phones hooked up to the US Supreme Court,
:07:00. > :07:01.the Governor's office, the Georgia Pardons
:07:02. > :07:18.and Parole Office, and so then, when he checked with each of those
:07:19. > :07:22.entities which might grant a stay or parole or commute the sentence,
:07:23. > :07:25.but when he checked with each entity and there was no stay,
:07:26. > :07:32.There was an individual standing behind me who had
:07:33. > :07:35.been my electrician when I was a warden at this institution.
:07:36. > :07:45.When the Attorney General indicated that there was no stay,
:07:46. > :07:48.then I asked the individual if he'd like to give
:07:49. > :08:02.Then I turned to Brad and said, "Brad, it's now time."
:08:03. > :08:07.Brad flipped a switch and we could see that jolt
:08:08. > :08:09.of electricity running through this individual's body and it
:08:10. > :08:34.And I knew I had killed another human being.
:08:35. > :08:38.At the very beginning of this interview, you used the word murder.
:08:39. > :08:47.Do you believe in your heart that you murdered or were complicit
:08:48. > :08:56.Although it is state sanctioned, it is premeditated murder,
:08:57. > :09:12.In most states, executions in the coroner's report are listed
:09:13. > :09:21.Yes, I feel like I was very much involved in premeditated killing
:09:22. > :09:29.and giving the order for him to be murdered.
:09:30. > :09:37.How much damage has that done to you?
:09:38. > :09:47.We provided psychological help for everyone involved,
:09:48. > :09:51.but then I realised the Attorney General
:09:52. > :09:55.and I weren't receiving treatment and it got harder and harder for me.
:09:56. > :09:58.The Attorney General, he handled it by running
:09:59. > :10:00.for governor and talking about being tough on crime.
:10:01. > :10:09.But I don't think he handled it very well.
:10:10. > :10:13.I finally went and asked for treatment and received some
:10:14. > :10:37.At first I tried to rationalise this whole process that,
:10:38. > :10:40."Well, if I could save one human being by this process,
:10:41. > :10:47.You mean the idea of the deterrent effect?
:10:48. > :10:56.But I already knew, I had already read the research on the deterrent
:10:57. > :11:00.effect and I had talked to so many inmates even before we had the death
:11:01. > :11:03.penalty, and rarely do any of the inmates ever think
:11:04. > :11:05.through to the consequences of their actions.
:11:06. > :11:14.You know, there have been some pieces of research that indicated
:11:15. > :11:18.But I don't think any reputable research would say that it has
:11:19. > :11:32.Even the family of the victim were in the institution.
:11:33. > :11:35.I didn't allow them to go into the room where the witnesses
:11:36. > :11:51.I know, I used to work in the United States,
:11:52. > :11:55.that in many states, in many situations, the family
:11:56. > :11:57.of the victims, those who were murdered, they are invited
:11:58. > :12:08.if they want to witness the death, the execution.
:12:09. > :12:11.We invited them to the execution but we didn't let them witness it.
:12:12. > :12:15.But there are families who want to be there.
:12:16. > :12:18.They say it adds to their sense of justice being done.
:12:19. > :12:25.This word that gets used so often, closure.
:12:26. > :12:29.They did not receive the closure that they thought they would.
:12:30. > :12:54.I didn't want an execution to be revenge.
:12:55. > :13:21.this is what I find most puzzling about this first execution. You say
:13:22. > :13:25.you didn't actually even then believe in the deterrent effect and
:13:26. > :13:29.you clearly had grave doubts about what you were doing. But you went on
:13:30. > :13:37.to supervise the killing of more prisoners. Four after that. How
:13:38. > :13:44.could he do that, how could you live with your conscience? I didn't do it
:13:45. > :13:46.well. It was a small part of that job.
:13:47. > :13:48.I have 15,000 employees, a $1 billion budget.
:13:49. > :13:51.You were a top official in the prison system
:13:52. > :13:54.in the United States, but with all due respect it was not
:13:55. > :13:57.a small part of your job, because it was the moment
:13:58. > :14:00.in which you, in a certain sense, were playing God.
:14:01. > :14:03.You were playing with people's lives, and that's no small matter.
:14:04. > :14:06.It certainly is not and I spent a lifetime since then regretting
:14:07. > :14:28.It is perhaps too easy for me to sit here with you and go through cases
:14:29. > :14:31.and ask you difficult questions, but there is one other case that
:14:32. > :14:37.That's the black man who was convicted of murdering three women.
:14:38. > :14:51.It became plain, in that period between conviction and death that
:14:52. > :14:53.first of all there had been a significant racial element
:14:54. > :15:04.One juror described an atmosphere of intimidation, where the N word
:15:05. > :15:07.was repeatedly used for that minority of jurors who were black,
:15:08. > :15:11.who were ultimately to decide his fate.
:15:12. > :15:14.There was also evidence that this man was mentally impaired,
:15:15. > :15:16.to the point where frankly many experts didn't believe
:15:17. > :15:26.You still, despite all of that, had him killed.
:15:27. > :15:35.I was, without trying to excuse myself at all,
:15:36. > :15:40.I was the vehicle for the execution and I have no defence for that.
:15:41. > :16:01.When you are doing the executions, you don't get all the history
:16:02. > :16:07.of what went on in the jury, looking back over all that
:16:08. > :16:13.information came out but you certainly didn't have that
:16:14. > :16:24.But when you look at the research, black people who kill whites
:16:25. > :16:32.are about three times more likely to receive the death penalty
:16:33. > :16:43.I found that in talking to many, many citizens, they usually
:16:44. > :16:46.have a stereotype in the back of their minds
:16:47. > :16:54.In the south, that might be a large black rapist,
:16:55. > :16:56.but there's always a racial stereotype involved.
:16:57. > :17:09.And so when you are talking about an execution they are killing
:17:10. > :17:20.that stereotype, not the human being that actually is there.
:17:21. > :17:23.And I have many compatriots who were directors who have gone
:17:24. > :17:28.I don't know any of them that haven't shed a lot of tears over it.
:17:29. > :17:35.Or have you taken from your experience a determination to do
:17:36. > :17:45.There's a group of five of us, three who were former directors,
:17:46. > :17:50.One of them was the director in California one a director
:17:51. > :17:53.in Ohio, and we have an organisation that we work, we're trying
:17:54. > :18:00.I appeared before several legislative groups, trying
:18:01. > :18:08.to abolish the death penalty in several states.
:18:09. > :18:12.So it's been an ongoing type of thing.
:18:13. > :18:18.Most of them not too successful, but I did have success last year
:18:19. > :18:26.with one case, of getting it stayed and then commuted the next day.
:18:27. > :18:31.And those are very personal experiences.
:18:32. > :18:34.This individual was a black man who was six foot nine.
:18:35. > :18:38.He had a good record until he was around 19 and somebody
:18:39. > :18:41.said, I wonder what Daniel would do if he took this blue pill?
:18:42. > :18:48.They gave him the blue pill and he just went absolutely berserk
:18:49. > :18:55.for about four hours, stabbed and killed his best friend
:18:56. > :19:01.and stabbed one other individual who survived.
:19:02. > :19:06.And then the prosecutor went all out to try him and he went to death row
:19:07. > :19:14.He, as big as he was, he could have been a bully of death
:19:15. > :19:18.row, but he spent the whole 19 years trying to help other people.
:19:19. > :19:22.So I was asked to try and intervene in this case and I did talk
:19:23. > :19:24.with the parole board and we gathered affidavits
:19:25. > :19:27.from many of the staff who told how good he was,
:19:28. > :19:39.At the very last moment, about two hours before he was to be
:19:40. > :19:44.In that sense, in that particular campaign,
:19:45. > :19:50.for that particular individual, did that seem like some sort of,
:19:51. > :19:54.I don't know, some sort of giving back, some sort of payback,
:19:55. > :19:59.for what you had done yourself in the past?
:20:00. > :20:02.I look at all the things I do now, I try to alleviate
:20:03. > :20:16.I've made two movies, one for Discovery Channel,
:20:17. > :20:19.which was produced and directed by a British firm,
:20:20. > :20:21.because they wanted to do a nonpolitical film.
:20:22. > :20:24.Well, I'm sorry, but the death penalty is totally political.
:20:25. > :20:26.I wanted to talk briefly about politics.
:20:27. > :20:29.You said this of politicians that you've had experience
:20:30. > :20:31.of as a director of corrections in the United States.
:20:32. > :20:34.In the field of corrections, you say, politicians played
:20:35. > :20:36.to the base instincts of the electorate.
:20:37. > :20:37.There's an awful lot of grandstanding.
:20:38. > :20:41.You sound very cynical about politicians on this issue.
:20:42. > :20:45.Yes, one North Georgia chicken farmer told me about politics.
:20:46. > :20:48.He said, Allen, I'll do whatever you want me to do.
:20:49. > :20:52.You want some more money in your budget or you want to change
:20:53. > :20:55.the law, unless it becomes between me and one of my
:20:56. > :20:58.constituents, and he said the name of the game is re-election.
:20:59. > :21:00.And certainly that's our US Congress and most legislature.
:21:01. > :21:04.So many of them will tell me, we've got to just be tough on crime
:21:05. > :21:15.In this extraordinary change of heart you've had,
:21:16. > :21:18.and the journey you've made, you're missing out one element,
:21:19. > :21:27.That is the United States is very proud of its democracy and every
:21:28. > :21:31.poll in the US to this day, even though the numbers have changed
:21:32. > :21:33.somewhat, shows that a majority, a clear majority of Americans,
:21:34. > :21:36.believe in the death penalty as the ultimate deterrent.
:21:37. > :21:39.And as long as that is true, don't politicians have a duty
:21:40. > :21:47.They also have a duty to inform their voters,
:21:48. > :21:53.Connecticut, they had a research that was done over four decades
:21:54. > :21:55.by Donohue, from Stanford University, a law professor.
:21:56. > :21:57.They had every little case judged by independent judges.
:21:58. > :22:09.Because people thought the most egregious cases were on death row.
:22:10. > :22:17.It turned out somewhere around 47 or 49 of the most egregious cases,
:22:18. > :22:30.where they'd cause pain or rape or whatever,
:22:31. > :22:32.only one of those cases was actually on death row.
:22:33. > :22:36.When that and some other things, the expense of it, is tremendous,
:22:37. > :22:38.the Connecticut legislature last year did away with
:22:39. > :22:44.You wrote not so long ago some very powerful words.
:22:45. > :22:48.You said, no one has the right to ask a public servant to take
:22:49. > :22:51.on a lifelong sentence of nagging doubt, shame and guilt.
:22:52. > :22:57.Is that what you have been sentenced to?
:22:58. > :23:06.Every time I think it's behind me, then something happens and it
:23:07. > :23:14.I was out at the Lexington airport, I had a 6:05am flight
:23:15. > :23:21.By all rights I'd always been on Delta airlines.
:23:22. > :23:24.This morning, I was going someplace else and was another another
:23:25. > :23:33.The plane crashed and killed everyone of them.
:23:34. > :23:39.I had to go again, all those feelings came back.
:23:40. > :23:55.Just had to keep re-dealing with it, re-dealing with it.
:23:56. > :23:58.Well, Allen Ault, I thank you for sharing your
:23:59. > :24:38.It is not often that we get the best of the weather over the weekend,
:24:39. > :24:41.but that seems to be the case this time round.
:24:42. > :24:45.On Sunday, we had a temperature of 20 degrees in Highland Scotland,
:24:46. > :24:50.But, for many of us on Sunday, the skies were not quite as blue.