:00:00. > :00:00.won't be arrested - are allowed to keep the gold they've extracted. Now
:00:00. > :00:17.on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. What must it be
:00:18. > :00:22.like to have been at the centre of the seemingly endless and fruitless
:00:23. > :00:27.quest for and Israeli-Palestinian peace deal for more than two
:00:28. > :00:30.decades? Is there any reason for expectations to rise as the US
:00:31. > :00:37.Secretary of State John Kerry prepares to publish his own outline
:00:38. > :00:42.for a deal? Those questions are for my guest today, veteran Palestinian
:00:43. > :00:44.negotiator, Saeb Erekat. We approaching a defining moment or a
:00:45. > :01:18.dead end? Saeb Erekat, in ROM Allah, welcome
:01:19. > :01:24.to HARDtalk. Thank you. You are about to go to Paris for talks with
:01:25. > :01:28.John Kerry. As I said at the beginning, you are a veteran of
:01:29. > :01:36.Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations. How would you care to
:01:37. > :01:41.rise your mood right now? Yes, I am going to Paris tomorrow, accompanied
:01:42. > :01:47.by President Mahmoud Abbas, we are scheduled to meet secretary Kerry on
:01:48. > :01:53.the 19th and 20th. I can characterise my mood as expecting a
:01:54. > :01:57.defining moment and I really hope this time that John Kerry will move
:01:58. > :02:02.in the direction of what is needed and not in the direction of what is
:02:03. > :02:06.possible. What is possible in American foreign policy means what
:02:07. > :02:12.the prime Minister of Homs can do or cannot do and that is why we always
:02:13. > :02:17.reach an end to these it tempts in the past. -- at temps. I hope you
:02:18. > :02:24.will put on the table what is needed break step solution. I am sure you
:02:25. > :02:28.hope that but I am trying to dig down about what you actually believe
:02:29. > :02:33.is going on. You have been talking to Mr Kerry for many months in this
:02:34. > :02:40.current negotiations. Is it your impression that he is, this time,
:02:41. > :02:46.going to come out with a framework, which will be fundamentally a
:02:47. > :02:49.breakthrough? I have known Mr Kerry for the last 26 years and I do not
:02:50. > :02:55.think of any other American official who knows Palestinians and Israelis
:02:56. > :03:01.inside out as much as Mr Kerry. I believe that is the different this
:03:02. > :03:09.time. I believe that no one stands to gain more from his stands from
:03:10. > :03:16.Palestinians nor from his failures. It is our independence, our freedom
:03:17. > :03:20.if he succeeds. It details, it is a continuation of the Israeli
:03:21. > :03:25.occupation. In the past few months, since July 29, we have exerted
:03:26. > :03:32.everything humanly possible stop I met with John Kerry - after the two
:03:33. > :03:37.meetings in Paris that it will be 24 meetings. I met with him and his
:03:38. > :03:45.team. We have presented everything possible in order to ensure that
:03:46. > :03:53.what will be put on the table is a balanced difference between
:03:54. > :03:58.Israeli-Palestinian. Before we get to the substance. One quick point
:03:59. > :04:05.which seems to me a very big problem. As you say, this process
:04:06. > :04:09.was launched by Kerry that there would be bilateral talks which would
:04:10. > :04:13.involve you and the Israelis talking to each other but since late last
:04:14. > :04:17.year, you have refused to meet the Israelis. We have a peace
:04:18. > :04:20.negotiation in which Kerry has to hold the ring and you refuse to talk
:04:21. > :04:28.to the people you are supposed to make peace with. You are wrong on
:04:29. > :04:33.this. You are right in saying that Palestinians and Israelis met last
:04:34. > :04:38.in December in bilateral meetings and ever since that time, Mr Kerry
:04:39. > :04:45.decided to take the negotiations in a different direction. Now, he is
:04:46. > :04:50.meeting with Mahmoud Abbas and with Benjamin Netanyahu on the other side
:04:51. > :04:54.because from day one, he said negotiations would be at two
:04:55. > :05:00.levels. One, the level of negotiators and then at the level of
:05:01. > :05:05.him, Mahmoud Abbas, Benjamin Netanyahu. He then spoke of a later
:05:06. > :05:08.stage when he would bring the leaders to President Obama and
:05:09. > :05:13.himself. It is consistent with the press as he began with. We did not
:05:14. > :05:17.say we are against meeting with the Israelis. We met with them in July,
:05:18. > :05:25.August and December. Then John Kerry decided to do it... Because it is
:05:26. > :05:29.time for decisions not negotiations. That is why he is dealing with
:05:30. > :05:34.Mahmoud Abbas on one side and Benjamin Netanyahu on the other.
:05:35. > :05:38.Deadlines. The point of this process was that Kerry said would not be to
:05:39. > :05:43.talk forever. We are sick of that approach. We are going to set a
:05:44. > :05:47.deadline by the end of April, 2014, there will either be the outline of
:05:48. > :05:52.a final peace deal, a lasting settlement, or they will not. Every
:05:53. > :05:57.indication we have that in the US media over the last few weeks, be
:05:58. > :06:06.Americans are becoming more flexible. There will be a lot of
:06:07. > :06:18.talking that will have to happen. Are you saying it is the end of
:06:19. > :06:23.April or bust ? It's the Israelis element succeeds in filing his
:06:24. > :06:27.efforts, why would you extended negotiations? That is the big
:06:28. > :06:32.question. The deal was that we entered this negotiations the nine
:06:33. > :06:40.months. Cover all issues, long-term agreements, and then the Israeli
:06:41. > :06:47.behaviour since that time, they introduced 10,500 units, demolished
:06:48. > :06:52.homes, escalated attacks on Palestinians, and have not been
:06:53. > :07:00.preparing their people for what it takes for John Kerry to succeed. I
:07:01. > :07:07.have said no official. As a matter of fact, I have not heard any of the
:07:08. > :07:12.government say we need to steps. I have not heard this. If they want to
:07:13. > :07:14.continue this line of dictation and settlement rather than peace and
:07:15. > :07:25.negotiations, why should we extended the one minute? Plan B will be
:07:26. > :07:30.instruments to UN agencies and to join the Geneva convention so the
:07:31. > :07:36.State of Palestine will become a state under occupation. Get into the
:07:37. > :07:40.substance of these talks. A blunt first question is you prepared to do
:07:41. > :07:47.what the Israelis demanded you must do as a first stage of this
:07:48. > :07:51.all-encompassing negotiation and recognise that Homs is the
:07:52. > :07:56.nationstate of the Jewish people as Mac if you are ready to do it, why
:07:57. > :08:04.do not do it now here on HARDtalk? Stephen, the state of Israel is the
:08:05. > :08:12.state of Israel. They have a birth certificate as you do. I will tell
:08:13. > :08:22.you frankly, I will not change my narrative, my history, my religion.
:08:23. > :08:24.But you are going to have to change your narrative because at the moment
:08:25. > :08:27.it is one of diplomatic failure, conflict, hatred and a running sore
:08:28. > :08:31.which leaves the Palestinian people without a state, without economic
:08:32. > :08:37.development. You need to change the narrative and if that requires you
:08:38. > :08:41.to recognise Homs as the state of the Jewish people and therefore, of
:08:42. > :08:45.course, a fundamental compromise on your part in terms of the right of
:08:46. > :08:49.return of those Palestinians and ancestors of those who lost their
:08:50. > :08:56.homes in 1948, so be it. It is time to do it, isn't it? Now you want a
:08:57. > :09:01.Jewish state, he wanted to give up the right of their return, you
:09:02. > :09:07.wanted to give up... He wants me to give up on my independent and
:09:08. > :09:10.sovereign trip to cause Benjamin Netanyahu wants to state the years
:09:11. > :09:15.to come? If that is what he has in mind, he can make peace with himself
:09:16. > :09:19.but it will not happen with me. My narrative here is that as you said,
:09:20. > :09:27.we have been trying to make peace and save lives and change the status
:09:28. > :09:30.quo with a 2-step solution. For the last 20 years. Those who failed me
:09:31. > :09:41.are those that continue with the eight 70 is... -- activities. My
:09:42. > :09:50.narrative is, I am the proud son of Jericho. Are you in their
:09:51. > :09:55.grandchild, it is my narrative. It is my story, my history, my
:09:56. > :10:03.religions. I was here before they came and built my hometown. So why
:10:04. > :10:18.should I say Homs is the homeland of the Jewish people? -- Homs. --
:10:19. > :10:29.Israel. You are sending mixed messages. If... Surely it is not so
:10:30. > :10:34.much of a stretch to give Israelis what they want, at knowledge that
:10:35. > :10:39.the nation of the Jewish people and then move on to the issues that
:10:40. > :10:44.really are at the crux of this, including border security, and
:10:45. > :10:48.settlement in Jerusalem. In your line of logic in what you are
:10:49. > :10:52.repeating from the Israelis, they want me to recognise them as a
:10:53. > :10:58.Jewish state, give up the rights of refugees and give up on the 67
:10:59. > :11:06.Lions. You are repeating exactly what Benjamin Netanyahu is a saying
:11:07. > :11:11.and that is why this negotiations go to a dead end. Let me put the record
:11:12. > :11:21.straight about what Benjamin Netanyahu said about refugees. A
:11:22. > :11:27.British Palestinian living in Britain will make his choice. That
:11:28. > :11:36.is the choice of every single refugee. We have to have
:11:37. > :11:39.international mechanisms and then different countries will give
:11:40. > :11:43.choices of whether they have the right to come to Palestine, to
:11:44. > :11:49.Israel, compensation, remaining where they are. That is how you and
:11:50. > :11:54.conflicts but if the Israelis want me to come into HARDtalk and say, I
:11:55. > :11:59.give this up, I give this up, what is there left to negotiate? I say
:12:00. > :12:04.proudly today that my president says, he recognises the state of
:12:05. > :12:08.Israel to exist can you tell me if there is one single Israeli minister
:12:09. > :12:15.including the Prime Minister, who has said they are willing to
:12:16. > :12:20.recognise the state of Palestine? They should stand tall and apologise
:12:21. > :12:23.to the Palestinian refugees? They made them suffer. They should reach
:12:24. > :12:30.out for them. This international mechanism should be established. If
:12:31. > :12:36.I may say so, your repetition of the 67 line as the fundamental printable
:12:37. > :12:39.is well known but is it not also well known that the Americans have
:12:40. > :12:45.taken the view in the course of these negotiations that they will
:12:46. > :12:49.have to be modifications to the 67 border and, according to leaks in
:12:50. > :12:56.the American press, the Americans believe a line can be drawn, land
:12:57. > :13:04.swaps implemented, which will leave 75% - 80% of settlers to stay in
:13:05. > :13:08.their homes as part of the peace deal. Are you saying that is
:13:09. > :13:15.fundamentally impossible? Look, if you think about nationstate,
:13:16. > :13:24.swapping territories, it happened between many, many countries. US
:13:25. > :13:31.Mexico, US Canada, John and Iraq, in Africa in many cases. Now, can I see
:13:32. > :13:36.the map of the State of Israel? Can someone, John Kerry, come to me and
:13:37. > :13:41.tell me these are the borders of Israel 67 and we want you to have
:13:42. > :13:48.land swaps in accordance with this map? You are talking about swaps
:13:49. > :13:52.without me knowing what is defined as Israel's borders. They are the
:13:53. > :13:57.only nation on earth would not recognise their borders. They do not
:13:58. > :14:02.have borders get. The minute they recognise what their borders are,
:14:03. > :14:07.the minute they are willing to recognise me, I am willing to engage
:14:08. > :14:11.in land swaps but how can I do this before then putting a map on the
:14:12. > :14:23.table of their borders? They have not done this. I tell you what they
:14:24. > :14:29.have done, if I may... They have added 10,000 settlement in what is
:14:30. > :14:33.supposed to be a Palestinian state which is four times the growth of
:14:34. > :14:36.New York in the last four months. You telling me this is the behaviour
:14:37. > :14:53.of a government that wants a two state solution? Everyone who looks
:14:54. > :15:01.at this does not dispute that. I have seen attacks the ground change
:15:02. > :15:05.over those years. East Jerusalem, for example is now the Arab East
:15:06. > :15:17.Jerusalem we talk about is in circled by a vast chain of Jewish
:15:18. > :15:22.housing. From the north in the south. That is the reality. When you
:15:23. > :15:26.talk about East Jerusalem being the future capital of Palestine, you
:15:27. > :15:32.know as well as I do East Jerusalem is now fundamentally it from the
:15:33. > :15:38.West Bank? Is it not time for you to deal with realities? I am not
:15:39. > :15:44.dreaming. I will tell you something very frankly. Without East Jerusalem
:15:45. > :15:49.being the capital of Palestine there is no meaning to have a Palestinian
:15:50. > :15:53.state. Would like Palestinians to look me in the high and walk me
:15:54. > :16:02.through my hometown to the Jordan River in the year 2,000. And 19,
:16:03. > :16:04.what do they see on this land. A juice going to convert to
:16:05. > :16:11.Christianity and become Palestinians? This will not happen.
:16:12. > :16:15.As much as they dismantle the settlements in Sinai and Gaza, these
:16:16. > :16:19.are the main obstacles to peace and they are obstructions to peace. We
:16:20. > :16:25.have been saying, they had to make the choice. Settlements or peace,
:16:26. > :16:28.they cannot have both. That is why we are reaching this difficult
:16:29. > :16:36.situation. That is why Benjamin Netanyahu is undermining Kerry's
:16:37. > :16:43.efforts in the West Bank and everywhere. Here is a simple
:16:44. > :16:49.proposition for you, you tell me one significant, fundamental concession
:16:50. > :16:55.you have made as Palestinian negotiator to the Israelis? Just
:16:56. > :17:01.one? We have recognised the state of Israel right exist on the 1967
:17:02. > :17:06.borders. 78% of land. We have accepted to establish that this --
:17:07. > :17:13.Palestinian state on the 1967 lines, 22% of the land. Another two
:17:14. > :17:18.we have accepted to entertain, once Israel aligns its borders to 67 and
:17:19. > :17:22.accepts the state of Palestine to 67 to entertain the idea of swapping
:17:23. > :17:26.land. We have accepted to be a country of limited arms and invited
:17:27. > :17:31.to -- a third party from Europe, from the UN from all over to make
:17:32. > :17:39.sure we comply with the agreement. We have accepted East Jerusalem
:17:40. > :17:44.capital of Palestine, West Jerusalem a little of this wrong. We must have
:17:45. > :17:49.a capital for peace where Muslims, Christians and Jews can worship
:17:50. > :17:53.without impediment and anyone preventing them like they do to
:17:54. > :17:58.Christians and Muslims today. They can come to Jerusalem and -- they
:17:59. > :18:05.can come to Jerusalem and pray. You have given me an interesting list,
:18:06. > :18:10.are you telling me you accept the demilitarised spell as --
:18:11. > :18:15.Palestinian state in the future and you accept a long-term presence of
:18:16. > :18:19.America or NATO or some sort of international force along the Jordan
:18:20. > :18:22.Valley to ensure Israeli security interests along the border with
:18:23. > :18:32.Jordan are permanently represented? Is that what you are saying? I am
:18:33. > :18:37.saying, that yes, I accept I accept a presence in the state of Palestine
:18:38. > :18:41.and the Jordan River to be at my airports to make sure we, as
:18:42. > :18:47.Palestinians are complying with the agreement and no one threatens us or
:18:48. > :18:53.Israel. I'm adding to that. That this force will not be a combating
:18:54. > :18:56.force. It will not have a single bullet. They are here to make sure
:18:57. > :19:02.Palestine is safe and Palestine borders are taken care of. And we
:19:03. > :19:07.have accepted this. Number two, . Sorry to interrupt, I want to pick
:19:08. > :19:11.up on that. When you make that sort of offer. You know that many
:19:12. > :19:16.Palestinians, I'm thinking of the leadership of Hamas for example,
:19:17. > :19:19.they accuse you of a fundamental betrayal, a sell-out, of replacing
:19:20. > :19:23.one occupation that of the Israelis with another. Perhaps be headed by
:19:24. > :19:29.the Americans. This is another problem you have. Even as you try to
:19:30. > :19:34.sound conciliatory at the American talks, you have others in mass
:19:35. > :19:42.saying we want to unite with fertile but only if they stop selling out
:19:43. > :19:45.the Palestinian cause. Hamas is a Palestinian political party, they
:19:46. > :19:49.know very well that once an agreement is reached it will be
:19:50. > :19:54.introduced in a national public referendum when Palestinians have
:19:55. > :20:00.the right to say yes or no. I will tell Hamas leaders that an
:20:01. > :20:04.international force change on by the security Council is not an occupying
:20:05. > :20:10.power. When Europe will the United States or Latin America or Africa
:20:11. > :20:14.would come to see the peace process as something we should be proud of,
:20:15. > :20:19.peaceful force. Look at the goal and heights, there is a piece falls
:20:20. > :20:26.there. Look like Sinai and Egypt. These are not an occupying power.
:20:27. > :20:30.These are coming at the request of the State of Palestine were the UN
:20:31. > :20:37.security Council resolution. We can not compare those with occupation
:20:38. > :20:42.forces. You make a very strategic stake by comparing this with the
:20:43. > :20:45.Israeli occupation. Before we end, let's quickly run through the
:20:46. > :20:49.constant question when you talk about association, who holds the
:20:50. > :20:56.cards, who has the cards? Is it not true, that although you talk about
:20:57. > :20:59.plan B option, going back to the UN strengthening the Palestinian case
:21:00. > :21:05.there, going to the criminal court, you do not hold the cards, you do
:21:06. > :21:09.not have the power. Because of these talks collapse, the Palestinian
:21:10. > :21:14.economy will collapse and you have said that the Palestinian authority
:21:15. > :21:30.may collapse as well? I said the following. Number one, Netanyahu --
:21:31. > :21:36.F Benjamin Netanyahu foils Kerry's attempts we will sign a statute and
:21:37. > :21:41.those that worry from tribunals should stop committing crimes.
:21:42. > :21:45.Number two, the Palestinian Authority cannot can sustain itself
:21:46. > :21:48.in the current form. The occupying power from the Jordan River to the
:21:49. > :21:53.Mediterranean. When I say failure is not an option I may be exaggerating,
:21:54. > :21:58.failure is an option but it is not an option because of the nightmare
:21:59. > :22:02.scenario is that they are after. I hope and play Benjamin Netanyahu and
:22:03. > :22:05.as government will stand tall and extend immediate recognition for the
:22:06. > :22:11.state of Palestine on the 9067 lines. I hope his government will
:22:12. > :22:18.define their borders of 1967 and work with Kerry in order to fix --
:22:19. > :22:23.achieve a successful end to his efforts. Two states living together,
:22:24. > :22:26.the State of Israel on the 1967 borders and a solution to all the
:22:27. > :22:32.issues we have talked about is doable but it Netanyahu chooses the
:22:33. > :22:35.path of continual debt patience and settlements and siege and closure he
:22:36. > :22:38.is doomed and we are doomed in the region will be doomed. This is why
:22:39. > :22:45.I'm saying Winnie to ensure we do not fail this time. We have been
:22:46. > :22:48.deeply negative about Netanyahu and his negotiating position through
:22:49. > :22:52.this interview, if you are honest with yourself and you look at what
:22:53. > :22:55.you personally have achieved as a peace negotiator over 20 years, do
:22:56. > :23:01.you fear you have been played for a fall? Have been suckered into a
:23:02. > :23:05.process which over 20 years, appears to have delivered nothing according
:23:06. > :23:09.to your own terms. And which during which, the facts on the ground have
:23:10. > :23:14.worked against the Palestinian people? Do you regret the process
:23:15. > :23:20.you have played such a big part in? No, I am proud of what I'm doing. I
:23:21. > :23:23.am doing the job. The greatest favour for myself, the children my
:23:24. > :23:28.grandchildren and the Palestinian people. I'm trying to make peace and
:23:29. > :23:32.change the abnormality of the situation. I was 12 years old when
:23:33. > :23:36.it came to downtown Jericho. I'm sick and tired of someone oppressing
:23:37. > :23:39.me and directing my life and pressing my children. I'm sick of
:23:40. > :23:44.tired would not known whether my children will come home every night.
:23:45. > :23:49.I want my children to be like your children. This is that crime because
:23:50. > :23:55.I am doing is to bring Palestine back to the map. I am trying to
:23:56. > :23:59.bring peace based on a matrix of mutual interest. Negotiating they've
:24:00. > :24:04.peace and frustration for five years, is much cheaper than
:24:05. > :24:08.exchanging bullets for five years and that is the truth. We have to
:24:09. > :24:37.end there. Thanks for joining me from Ramada.
:24:38. > :24:43.This week looks a good deal quieter than last week, certainly far less
:24:44. > :24:46.stormy. At times there will still be rain and some fairly brisk winds.
:24:47. > :24:47.There is an area of low pressure responsible for