:00:00. > :00:11.from Kiev on the front of the Independent. Time now for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:19.Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk which forms part of the
:00:20. > :00:24.BBC's Freedom season. In a host of African countries from sexuality is
:00:25. > :00:28.a crime. From Nigeria to Uganda, politicians seem to believe that
:00:29. > :00:35.persecuting gays is a vote winning strategy. M yesterday, the Kenyan
:00:36. > :00:40.writer Binyavanga Wainaina, knew it would be big news when he publicly
:00:41. > :00:44.revealed his homosexuality earlier this year. He is now the centre of
:00:45. > :00:49.the debate around Freedom, identity, and culture that is raging
:00:50. > :01:18.across the African continent. Is his stand changing minds?
:01:19. > :01:30.Binyavanga Wainaina, welcomed the HARDtalk. Thank you. You recently to
:01:31. > :01:38.the momentous decision to come out as gay. Why? It was my birthday, I
:01:39. > :01:46.was turning 43. It must have been more than your birthday. She knew it
:01:47. > :01:51.would change alone. So? I came back home couple of years ago to settle
:01:52. > :01:58.permanently. I have been fascinated in the rate of change of things on
:01:59. > :02:05.the continent. A caller to retain. A lot of freedoms, threats, violence,
:02:06. > :02:09.economic growth. And for me a lot of creativity. I have worked with
:02:10. > :02:18.writers across the continent in Nigeria, in Kenyan, Zimbabwe, South
:02:19. > :02:24.Africa. I work with talent. As an editor, a publisher, a general noise
:02:25. > :02:31.maker, and rally of things, and I have seen exchange. I feel like the
:02:32. > :02:39.generation of a father, it is time to go for broke for what we want. It
:02:40. > :02:42.is that simple. Going for broke, but you must have known that it would
:02:43. > :02:56.cause a huge stir and it would cause to you personally a degree of
:02:57. > :02:59.trouble. Not yet. My gamble was that the younger generation of Africans,
:03:00. > :03:08.the vast majority, in the digital generation, are different. I have
:03:09. > :03:12.lived and travelled around this continent for the last eight years
:03:13. > :03:18.and I know many of them pretty intimately. I was confident in an
:03:19. > :03:25.embrace of support and a lot of good bracing conversations. Did you feel
:03:26. > :03:28.different because of it? You have just announced the world what you
:03:29. > :03:35.are and what you have pretty much always been. Do you feel different?
:03:36. > :03:41.I was struck by something you said a few weeks ago. My whole queer life I
:03:42. > :03:45.have avoided the present tense, and now the implication is that you are
:03:46. > :03:53.living in the present in a way that you have never able to before. My
:03:54. > :04:05.dad died two years ago. She was the CEO of a public company. She was 26,
:04:06. > :04:10.and he grew it. She retired with money and a good house. All of my
:04:11. > :04:16.life I have been saying that I am waiting to grow up to decide to be
:04:17. > :04:23.what I want to be, country and my continent. That is my present tense.
:04:24. > :04:30.You speak of your father, even in a short burst, with real affection and
:04:31. > :04:36.respect. Why could you not tell your father and, indeed, your mother that
:04:37. > :04:43.you were gay? You kept putting it in the future tense. I did not trust
:04:44. > :04:49.their love in me. Each time they had to die before I had to say I will
:04:50. > :04:52.ask them. I could not even say that they would not accept it because
:04:53. > :04:56.they have never given me the slightest indication. And day may
:04:57. > :05:03.bohemian who has given them trouble in my life. You not think that they
:05:04. > :05:13.probably did no? My mother, for sure. I father, it is hard to guess.
:05:14. > :05:17.You are now very open. You say that you are sure that even as a child of
:05:18. > :05:27.56 years old you knew that you were different. Telegraph yes. I did not
:05:28. > :05:35.do with sex was until I was 14 but he knew that there was this thing,
:05:36. > :05:46.this Paul 2-man that I had to hide from everybody. You have to hide it
:05:47. > :05:49.yourself? I had to hide it separately and have a separate place
:05:50. > :05:56.in my imagination to deal with it and not act on it outside of that.
:05:57. > :06:04.Is it true that you could not really use the word gay in connection with
:06:05. > :06:09.yourself until you in late 30s. You are a prominent Kenyan writer and
:06:10. > :06:16.creative and get it seems as we talk about this you have been unable to
:06:17. > :06:19.be true to yourself. Maybe your writing is missed out something
:06:20. > :06:29.essential about you pretty much all of your life? Yes. Is that bid to
:06:30. > :06:35.look back on your until now and say that there is something missing in
:06:36. > :06:41.all of this? A body of work itself evolves with you. I do not see it as
:06:42. > :06:46.a hindsight thing taking out all of these lost chapters. What was there
:06:47. > :06:53.was true to something, and it will survive on its own in the ecosystem
:06:54. > :07:00.of writing, the book. People get annoyed and say that they are
:07:01. > :07:03.returning the book, you lied. You have written a memoir which now we
:07:04. > :07:10.can all say misses out the most essential thing about who you are.
:07:11. > :07:15.The memoir was also about language, developing language as a child. I
:07:16. > :07:18.like to play with a lot of stuff. I don't know. You do not sign up to
:07:19. > :07:25.this kind of truth telling as a writer. I am a literary writer. You
:07:26. > :07:30.do not sign up for it unless you know that it could be completely
:07:31. > :07:35.inconsequential and you move on. I will not be crying tears because
:07:36. > :07:39.people wonder if they should put the book in the dustbin. I still think
:07:40. > :07:45.it is a great book and I was reading it three days ago and I was
:07:46. > :07:47.thinking, everything that is gay. Without being explicit. Let's move
:07:48. > :07:57.from their personal to the public and political. You have become a
:07:58. > :08:01.very significant public figure in Kenya and across Africa as well
:08:02. > :08:11.because you're one of the most prominent Africans who has come out.
:08:12. > :08:13.Do you embrace that public role? There are going to be some
:08:14. > :08:19.inconveniences clearly, but yes. I did it. I was going to write a book
:08:20. > :08:23.about being gay, even three years ago. The timing of this chapter was
:08:24. > :08:29.a political act. I was sick and tired of what is going on. The new
:08:30. > :08:35.law in Nigeria really got to be in a very personal way. A friend of mine
:08:36. > :08:42.died a year ago AIDS. He was too ashamed to tell doctors to test him.
:08:43. > :08:48.He would have to explain. That stuff is mediaeval and I'm sick of it. I
:08:49. > :08:52.am sick of having 15th century conversations. You say you are sick
:08:53. > :08:57.of it, but it raises questions about your insecurity. You are based in
:08:58. > :09:00.Kenya, where the Constitution is a grey area as to whether
:09:01. > :09:06.homosexuality is legal or not. You could read a Constitution either way
:09:07. > :09:12.but in a jury of the laws have been toughened up again. Very long prison
:09:13. > :09:17.terms await back to see homosexuals. In parts of Nigeria, under Sharia
:09:18. > :09:27.law, you could face lashing or stoning. What about your own
:09:28. > :09:31.personal security? There are many things that could get you stoned in
:09:32. > :09:41.some African countries. Would you go to Nigeria today? I will wait and
:09:42. > :09:45.see. I will deflect this to you, we are experiencing the most exciting
:09:46. > :09:54.and the most dangerous time in recent history of this continent. I
:09:55. > :10:03.want to be here for it. The risks to everybody, growth, huge buildings,
:10:04. > :10:08.in the opening up of the territory, are risks that are going to happen.
:10:09. > :10:16.Willoughby all the flappy about it and say no? I was at the airport in
:10:17. > :10:20.Nairobi and for the first time was a bit nervous. I signed for autographs
:10:21. > :10:24.with airport security staff and had a long chat with one of the
:10:25. > :10:29.policeman they are. It is not to say that there is no homophobia, but he
:10:30. > :10:33.did not do these things unless you know what your environment is ready
:10:34. > :10:39.for. So far the response has been incredible. You talk about the
:10:40. > :10:48.extremes and the pressures that come from groups like book around and
:10:49. > :10:53.others, but the point is that it is not the extremes that are pursuing
:10:54. > :10:57.an anti-gay agenda. Uganda or Nigeria, for example, mainstream
:10:58. > :11:02.politicians are making political hay with an anti-gay agenda. Why do you
:11:03. > :11:11.think that is the case in today's African nations? I have been very
:11:12. > :11:18.vocal in the last few weeks about the Pentecostal church. I am talking
:11:19. > :11:26.about the movement that arrived in the 80s. I call them the Alabama.
:11:27. > :11:35.You mean a bunch of Protestant missionaries from the US? They are
:11:36. > :11:39.responsible, we are responsible for our own continent. But you have had
:11:40. > :11:47.a fever of a very specific brand of Pentecostalism. That one came in the
:11:48. > :11:53.80s and 90s. I was part of it, it was what killed my mother. As the
:11:54. > :11:56.continent 's economy started dropping, people came under the
:11:57. > :12:04.umbrella of the dictators in Africa. The president was sitting
:12:05. > :12:08.there with them telling people to remove the Demon of homosexuality,
:12:09. > :12:13.cancer, everything. Those churches to control of themselves and are now
:12:14. > :12:19.in every street corner, ten of them, 50 of them. As economies have
:12:20. > :12:23.stabilised, as you have got a growing middle class in this
:12:24. > :12:26.continent, it is time to be confident enough to start to speak
:12:27. > :12:30.out about the oxygen that these people take from larger freedoms.
:12:31. > :12:37.There is something odd about that argument. That in essence, the surge
:12:38. > :12:43.of anti-gay legislation and sentiment is somehow the product of
:12:44. > :12:49.an external influence from a US -based church. It does not seem to
:12:50. > :12:55.reflect reality. Look at the president of Uganda. He did not talk
:12:56. > :12:59.to me about the influence on him of American missionaries. He told
:13:00. > :13:04.specifically about African values, African culture and tradition, which
:13:05. > :13:20.in his view told him and his people that homosexuality comedies he --
:13:21. > :13:23.homosexuality is abnormal. American missionaries influence many people
:13:24. > :13:30.in this continent. We do not want to talk about blaming America. Are you
:13:31. > :13:34.really taking responsibility? You are a writer and cultural figure and
:13:35. > :13:40.a proud African. There are elements of Pan African is to your cultural
:13:41. > :13:46.view. Maybe, you are seeking to blame the anti-gay agenda on
:13:47. > :13:57.outsiders because it allows you to go easy on internal African factors.
:13:58. > :14:01.My personal concerns are how as we as a continent have allowed
:14:02. > :14:07.ourselves to import certain kinds of ideas. Not even domesticate them for
:14:08. > :14:13.our own good. My grandparents on both sides were founder members of
:14:14. > :14:19.Catholic and Anglican churches. I am a product of that system of great
:14:20. > :14:23.schools, I am proud of that. We are also a product of an extremely
:14:24. > :14:29.conservative Anglican movement that are still stranded in 1920. You can
:14:30. > :14:32.not blame the coloniser anymore, you have to put the bullet points that
:14:33. > :14:38.the British debut and pound up again, you people have become very
:14:39. > :14:42.hard and brittle centre of establishment at the time this
:14:43. > :14:46.continent needs change. As you speak to me, I cannot help reflect on the
:14:47. > :14:52.words of one evangelical American pastor who has done a lot of work in
:14:53. > :14:55.Uganda, the kind of person you would be blaming for this anti-gay
:14:56. > :15:00.climate. He has responded to words such as your saying, I do not have
:15:01. > :15:06.any special powers to influence, it is racist to suggest that Africans
:15:07. > :15:11.have no will of their own to produce public policies to suit their own
:15:12. > :15:16.values. But put it like this, the Anglicans, the Catholics especially
:15:17. > :15:19.in Uganda and Nigeria more the conservative elements that are
:15:20. > :15:25.dominant are so powerful right now for those churches, they are
:15:26. > :15:29.imposing their will on the Anglican Church in the UK. They have the
:15:30. > :15:32.parishioners and they can pursue conservative agenda. What you have
:15:33. > :15:37.on the continent is a battle between a younger generation and an older
:15:38. > :15:43.generation that wants to keep the establishment power in play. This is
:15:44. > :15:50.the way Jonathan good luck can partner with the crazy Pentecostals
:15:51. > :15:55.and the arms to create fear at a time and he could not deliver
:15:56. > :16:00.electricity to his own people. He is a desperate president. You seem to
:16:01. > :16:09.think you can take the conservatism of a man like arch ship in Nigeria
:16:10. > :16:16.and the Imam 's who claim to speak for poco Rahman, you can also take
:16:17. > :16:20.people like politicians who talk about specifically African
:16:21. > :16:25.values.... We all went to school. These movements have been counting
:16:26. > :16:32.on about homosexuality in Africa for ever. What you people have been
:16:33. > :16:36.doing is pounding out these bullet points. To long time. What we can
:16:37. > :16:44.seize your churches been increasingly anti- diversity, in the
:16:45. > :16:50.most diverse society on the earth. Final thought on this cultural
:16:51. > :16:53.argument, when the catholic cardinal from Ghana when he said African
:16:54. > :16:59.traditional systems protect or have protected the population against the
:17:00. > :17:03.tendency that is homosexuality, any affair between two of the same sex,
:17:04. > :17:06.these are not countenanced in Africa. That cultural taboos has
:17:07. > :17:11.always been there. Are you saying that is wrong? That is why talk
:17:12. > :17:19.about the Anglican Church and Catholic Church are the most
:17:20. > :17:21.conservative in the world. He is talking about traditional African
:17:22. > :17:27.systems, putting a taboos on homosexuality. Is that right or
:17:28. > :17:33.wrong? It is wrong. It is wrong. The church is more interested in damping
:17:34. > :17:39.down on perversity. When homosexually tea comes up abortion
:17:40. > :17:44.they go crazy. When the subject comes up how have you Protestants
:17:45. > :17:49.allowed people from crazy churches to come across as continent, I was
:17:50. > :17:54.there when the Catholic Church was saying, in my hometown, to allow
:17:55. > :17:59.their parishioner to go to this giant rallies where people were told
:18:00. > :18:04.to vote antidemocracy. I was in Kenya win the churches united to
:18:05. > :18:10.have a constitution not passed. Because of these foreign forces.
:18:11. > :18:16.These are rich aggressive forces on this continent. You have certainly
:18:17. > :18:19.said that clearly. Let me flip the argument about outside interventions
:18:20. > :18:26.in this particular issue around. Let me talk now about the words of
:18:27. > :18:30.British Prime Minister David Cameron in 2011 and he looked at the trend
:18:31. > :18:35.towards anti-gay legislation in countries like Nigeria, he said from
:18:36. > :18:38.now on we will tie the aid and assistance we give to Africa to
:18:39. > :18:41.respect for human rights, including respect for the rights of gay
:18:42. > :18:52.Africans. Do you welcome that will not? Let me say, I am very tolerant,
:18:53. > :18:56.I would set -- tend to the no. Even though you've told me about the
:18:57. > :19:00.surge of anti-gay feeling and how it is riding the rights of peoples
:19:01. > :19:05.archers yourself when outsiders, in the West come and say we have a view
:19:06. > :19:11.here and we want to defend human rights. You do not like that? Is
:19:12. > :19:16.Africans we had to start having these conversations in a bold way
:19:17. > :19:20.between ourselves. I do not think the results have been very good over
:19:21. > :19:24.the last five years in the prism of a halfway conversation between
:19:25. > :19:33.England and Africa. People I know at this point. .doc. This question is
:19:34. > :19:37.about human rights. Does the West, or do international outsiders have a
:19:38. > :19:40.right to tell Africans when they think Africans are infringing basic
:19:41. > :19:46.human rights? Traditional Africans should be able to interact, the
:19:47. > :19:49.example me as a gay man interact with any organisations to advance
:19:50. > :19:55.common interest. My problem with this, our experience on the
:19:56. > :19:59.continent as if you open a little window, people who want to control
:20:00. > :20:05.you come back. It is not about control, but respect for universal
:20:06. > :20:08.values. This is a similar issue to you philosophically to your approach
:20:09. > :20:12.to the International Criminal Court. As a king and you have thought about
:20:13. > :20:18.whether the Hague court has the right to try your current president
:20:19. > :20:23.and vice president for alleged crimes. Committed in the OC of an
:20:24. > :20:27.election were terrible ethnic violence. You decided the
:20:28. > :20:32.international court has no right? I said it had a right. I did not want
:20:33. > :20:37.to have a right. I did not want further entry of people over our own
:20:38. > :20:44.sublimity. I'm not the only person. Many people talk about this idea.
:20:45. > :20:47.Something, it is for me, the preference of this being fought in
:20:48. > :20:53.the place that is called the political is more important. People
:20:54. > :20:59.have written about it in the New York Times recently. What is the
:21:00. > :21:04.preference? To some degree, Kenya is a growing concern. It is not the
:21:05. > :21:10.Congo. How far do we allow our own systems to collapse or implode
:21:11. > :21:14.because of the ICC. How far do you say..., you said at the beginning of
:21:15. > :21:18.this interview there was a new Africa, a hurricane ain't passed on
:21:19. > :21:22.to the continent. We are proud of where we are going. If you are proud
:21:23. > :21:26.and confident, why did not welcome these universal values. Whether they
:21:27. > :21:34.be applied by outsiders or insiders. Why do you not recognise these are
:21:35. > :21:41.values that you aspire to? We are talking about universal values,
:21:42. > :21:46.David Blair would be at the ICC as we speak. The questions are
:21:47. > :21:50.tentative, one part of me wants to see the Kenyan President in court. I
:21:51. > :21:56.want to see the facts unfold. There is no doubt about it. But she
:21:57. > :22:00.blinked like this, and the French are back on side like this. They are
:22:01. > :22:06.running everything. Mali and so forth. We have to watch these
:22:07. > :22:09.things. We do have these relationships. Between the Western
:22:10. > :22:15.Africa, that relationship is well documented. And it continues. This
:22:16. > :22:20.gets to the nub of the conversation, it seems to me on one hand you say
:22:21. > :22:24.we are a new Africa not the generation that for the liberation
:22:25. > :22:28.wars anymore. We are post- postcolonial. On another level you
:22:29. > :22:32.are forced into suspicion and mistrust and resentment that filled
:22:33. > :22:39.the generation of McGarvey and others. We are not a new Africa. We
:22:40. > :22:44.are beginning to be a new Africa. We have not arrived. We are setting off
:22:45. > :22:50.on a tentative, dangerous, thrilling journey. Which I want to be part of.
:22:51. > :22:55.The want to make it on your own? The moment the think you know something,
:22:56. > :23:00.you have two shift around. Those are good adventures. The only thing I do
:23:01. > :23:05.not want is to be sitting there and watching the water drop. That is all
:23:06. > :23:09.we did for 20 years. If I may in this way, do you want to make this
:23:10. > :23:14.journey on your own as Africans on your own. Is that what you want? We
:23:15. > :23:21.would like to make it with better partnerships. Put like that. We have
:23:22. > :23:45.to end there. Thank you so much for being on HARDtalk.
:23:46. > :23:50.It's fairly quiet overnight. There will be some frost and some rain to
:23:51. > :23:52.be found as