:00:00. > :00:12.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk. Europe's Roma have been discriminated against for
:00:17. > :00:20.centuries. They live in poor communities on the margins of
:00:21. > :00:23.society. Richer nations fear an influx of poorer migrants from
:00:24. > :00:30.eastern Europe in search of jobs and benefits and the Roma have borne the
:00:31. > :00:33.brunt of such suspicion. Now, Switzerland's vote to curb
:00:34. > :00:35.immigration from the EU has touched a nerve, with some predicting a
:00:36. > :00:41.hardening of attitudes right across Europe towards migrants. We speak to
:00:42. > :00:44.Hungarian MEP Livia Jaroka. The only Roma in the European parliament. Is
:00:45. > :01:14.she worried that the mood against the Roma is getting worse?
:01:15. > :01:27.Livia Jaroka, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. How worried are you that
:01:28. > :01:30.the mood against the Roma in particular is hardening? We have
:01:31. > :01:37.noticed it already 20 years ago when the system changed in Eastern
:01:38. > :01:40.Europe. We felt the anti- Roma sentiment was going around Europe.
:01:41. > :01:51.Cost of the economic situation worsening, today we see a rise in
:01:52. > :01:55.anti- Roma. But the European Parliament started at ten years ago.
:01:56. > :02:00.When you look at the referendum in Switzerland, not a member of the EU
:02:01. > :02:04.but has a close association and has access to the single market, the
:02:05. > :02:08.referendum vote there to curb immigration from the EU is a sign
:02:09. > :02:14.that richer countries in Europe, like Switzerland, are becoming even
:02:15. > :02:23.more less tolerant of migrants? But at the same time since 2004, the
:02:24. > :02:28.second big wave of the EU widening, there has been a lot of people who
:02:29. > :02:31.left their country is already and as immigrants have contributed to the
:02:32. > :02:35.economies of different western European countries. Evidently those
:02:36. > :02:40.countries weren't aware of the post- Communist tendencies that might
:02:41. > :02:45.occur and have occurred. So they take it as a surprise that people
:02:46. > :02:49.started to move, although it was predictable. As an anthropologist we
:02:50. > :02:54.saw it much earlier, that people from poorer regions would leave.
:02:55. > :02:58.Also, any Western European countries weren't aware that if they started
:02:59. > :03:03.to privatise Eastern Europe many of the jobs would it gone and this is
:03:04. > :03:07.what happened. We will talk about the reasons and what happened after
:03:08. > :03:14.1989, when we saw the dismantling of the Soviet bloc and so on, and the
:03:15. > :03:19.first wave of enlargement in 2004 and again in 2007. Saying that the
:03:20. > :03:23.Swiss referendum, it was said the vote was a total gift to the
:03:24. > :03:25.eurosceptics. They can point to Switzerland as a sturdy nation that
:03:26. > :03:30.is turning its back on EU immigration. This is a major
:03:31. > :03:33.headache for the European Union commission. And you are a member of
:03:34. > :03:37.the European Parliament, he want to seek re-election perhaps in May? It
:03:38. > :03:41.might be a major issue for those who are looking at it from the
:03:42. > :03:44.immigration point of view. For those who are looking at it from the
:03:45. > :03:48.national and economic point of view, and looking at the whole European
:03:49. > :03:53.union point of view, you will see that this sort of migration was
:03:54. > :03:58.first of all predictable, second of all these countries need these
:03:59. > :04:02.migrants... But the argument is getting through. When you see a
:04:03. > :04:05.spokesperson for David Cameron who said the vote in Switzerland
:04:06. > :04:08.reflected growing concern about the impact of the free movement of
:04:09. > :04:13.people. This is what of the main pillars of the EU. The point I make
:04:14. > :04:19.is this, how can the EU commission, its leaders, insist on this basic
:04:20. > :04:23.pillar remaining, but at the same time acknowledging that people are
:04:24. > :04:29.wary of migration within the EU? We do have to keep the free movement as
:04:30. > :04:34.one of the main values. Therefore, ten years ago we started to create
:04:35. > :04:39.the European Roma strategy, to make sure the poorest people of the EU
:04:40. > :04:43.are going to find their place. So, this sort of tension that is
:04:44. > :04:49.happening now is not going to come out. But, already, ten years back,
:04:50. > :04:52.we felt these tensions. We knew this sort of poverty in Europe that
:04:53. > :04:54.creates this tension and create the feeling, the fear, but others are
:04:55. > :05:01.going to take their jobs, feeling, the fear, but others are
:05:02. > :05:05.that strategy isn't working. Take the words of one Hungarian
:05:06. > :05:10.billionaire, who has done a great deal of research on the Roma. He
:05:11. > :05:14.says since they became EU citizens, the living conditions of the Roma
:05:15. > :05:19.people across Europe deteriorated. I wouldn't say so but it has been
:05:20. > :05:25.better, that's the shore. He says the shocking thing is, those are his
:05:26. > :05:27.words, the shocking thing is that their living conditions have
:05:28. > :05:33.deteriorated. If you look at the statistics, 90% of Roma people live
:05:34. > :05:40.in poverty. They are twice as likely to be unemployed, 24% is the average
:05:41. > :05:47.across the EU. I came to the parliament in 2004 to create a Roma
:05:48. > :05:52.strategy in Europe. When the new government came into presidency, we
:05:53. > :06:00.have spoken to Prime Minister is on this. But it was only the Hungarian
:06:01. > :06:03.president in 2011 who was ready to look at the question. If you
:06:04. > :06:08.remember, it was after the first expulsions from France. There was an
:06:09. > :06:12.openness for this in the Council. Situation is not what it was ten
:06:13. > :06:16.years ago. And it comes to political commitment from the countries. Ten
:06:17. > :06:18.years ago, Europe didn't know about the Roma to the extent they know
:06:19. > :06:24.now. It wasn't on the political agenda. He pushed it through 27
:06:25. > :06:28.countries. Seven different huge parties in the European Parliament,
:06:29. > :06:33.to find a compromise. There is a need for a European move on this
:06:34. > :06:37.sort of poverty. It's on the agenda it is on the agenda in a negative
:06:38. > :06:41.way, in many ways. One example, many people have the possession in Europe
:06:42. > :06:45.that the Roma people, the cause of this marginalisation, twice as
:06:46. > :06:50.likely to be unemployed for instance, that they will go to
:06:51. > :06:54.Western European countries where there is a better welfare and
:06:55. > :07:00.benefits system. -- perception in Europe. These people are escaping
:07:01. > :07:02.economic turbulence. Since the 90s, they haven't had jobs. Three
:07:03. > :07:07.generations without seeing their parents go to work. Before that,
:07:08. > :07:11.there was full unemployment in Europe because of comment is on. You
:07:12. > :07:16.are accepting that they do go to richer countries? -- because of
:07:17. > :07:19.comment is on. The radiant prime minister said to HARDtalk last year
:07:20. > :07:24.that in answer to benefit tourism it's a specific problem of the Roma
:07:25. > :07:28.community. -- Romanian prime minister. He admitted it was a
:07:29. > :07:34.concern for countries like France, the UK and Germany. We don't know to
:07:35. > :07:39.what extent Roma are in this game. What we learned from the recent
:07:40. > :07:43.research is that actually this immigration is a totally positive
:07:44. > :07:48.outcome to all of these countries. What we see it, this sort of
:07:49. > :07:51.turbulence and anti-immigration, it usually comes before the election.
:07:52. > :07:57.You know that. All around Eastern and Western Europe we ask why
:07:58. > :08:01.governments aren't doing enough, why they aren't using EU money, why they
:08:02. > :08:06.aren't doing anything. Many of them don't dare to because of the
:08:07. > :08:09.elections. You are rejecting that comment that he made, that it's a
:08:10. > :08:14.specific problem with benefit tourism as regards to the Roma
:08:15. > :08:22.community, the Romanian committee in this situation? Merret I have two.
:08:23. > :08:26.-- community in this situation. I have two. People only thing their
:08:27. > :08:31.homes to find jobs in other places. People would leave their homes do
:08:32. > :08:36.not work in other places. You can imagine what a huge step it is when
:08:37. > :08:42.these people do this. Not mentioning that why we are addressing this
:08:43. > :08:45.issue, as well as trafficking and other rights, issues that came up
:08:46. > :08:50.with this sort of poverty. The reason why we are also addressing
:08:51. > :08:54.this from inside the community and also as a parliamentarian in the
:08:55. > :08:58.European Parliament in the name of the European Roma, I am addressing
:08:59. > :09:03.this question, saying many of the people are coming here because
:09:04. > :09:09.of... They are being trafficked. Any children are victims of this sort of
:09:10. > :09:14.new system of migrating possibilities. -- many children. But
:09:15. > :09:21.these countries don't realise that they cannot export their poverty, so
:09:22. > :09:26.they have to use the EU money, the huge funds available, the programmes
:09:27. > :09:30.we have organised and opened up in the last years. Because this will
:09:31. > :09:37.solve the problem. Looking at another example, another reason why
:09:38. > :09:41.people say the Roma are marginalised, is one senior Greek
:09:42. > :09:46.diplomat, of course Greece is holding the current presidency of
:09:47. > :09:50.the EU, says that people see them as living a kind of separate existence.
:09:51. > :09:57.They isolate themselves from the mainstream community. And therefore
:09:58. > :10:00.they are seeing as being rather... The other, representing the other,
:10:01. > :10:07.something they don't understand. He has a point? Hello I do so. There is
:10:08. > :10:11.little knowledge, which is why I accepted your invitation today. The
:10:12. > :10:17.media has a huge role in making sure that people get real knowledge about
:10:18. > :10:21.Roma. For example, the poor. Europe doesn't know anything and the
:10:22. > :10:26.prejudice is based.... That under anything about the history of the
:10:27. > :10:29.Roma. The prejudice is based on false information. If you look at
:10:30. > :10:33.the history, they came or that 800 is ago and have been integrated into
:10:34. > :10:39.all societies. My family for example in Hungary has been working as...
:10:40. > :10:45.And has been contributing to the Hungarian economy heavily. All the
:10:46. > :10:49.families were ideal 1980. You think it's a wrong perception when
:10:50. > :10:53.somebody like the Labour MP for Sheffield, a former British Home
:10:54. > :10:57.Secretary, said in November last year, we have got to change the
:10:58. > :11:00.behaviour and culture of the Roma community. The incoming community
:11:01. > :11:05.have to adhere to our standards and our way of behaving, because
:11:06. > :11:09.otherwise there will be an explosion. His words are echoed by
:11:10. > :11:12.the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, who has a constituency in the
:11:13. > :11:18.neighbouring region. Are they misinformed? It clearly shows a lack
:11:19. > :11:22.of knowledge. It is extremely important that you go and get to
:11:23. > :11:26.know these people, you go and get to know our people's history and the
:11:27. > :11:30.condition be made to Europe. If you look at Eastern Europe, all the
:11:31. > :11:36.factories, the roads, were built up by the poorest. Factory workers.
:11:37. > :11:41.Today, if you look at how many Roma are in that economy, working black,
:11:42. > :11:46.they don't get jobs because of their skin colour, you will see work has
:11:47. > :11:49.never been a problem to the Roma. The European and feeling European
:11:50. > :12:07.and having their national identity first and only after that as a Roma
:12:08. > :12:11.identity has always been the case. You have your own traditions, what
:12:12. > :12:18.looks like a child bride is in fact a remote dowry. There is an
:12:19. > :12:26.encouragement to go to work. The Roma were the first addressing
:12:27. > :12:30.these. So they are addressing them? Yes. If you read the EU reports on
:12:31. > :12:37.Roma, we are talking about trafficking, victimisation of poor
:12:38. > :12:41.people, we are talking about the importance of not making this an
:12:42. > :12:47.ethnic question. You may say that these are Roma but you will see that
:12:48. > :12:53.there are many more people looking around the settlements who are not
:12:54. > :12:57.Roma. Do you accept that your Roma community has a responsibility to
:12:58. > :13:02.try to fit in more with the rest of society and not remain separate? Of
:13:03. > :13:07.course. This is the reason why he came to represent them in the
:13:08. > :13:12.European Parliament, our main goal is partnership. We were the first to
:13:13. > :13:20.propose this strategy. We want to change at. If you see my speeches, I
:13:21. > :13:24.say that the Roma have a huge responsibility in making sure that
:13:25. > :13:29.these programmes that are out there, the huge new system which is
:13:30. > :13:33.politically very much supported by all of the member states
:13:34. > :13:41.economically, it shows a huge possibilities. All of the funds have
:13:42. > :13:47.been opened up. But not at the national level. This money is going
:13:48. > :13:51.to the national level. You are the product of a mixed marriage. Your
:13:52. > :14:00.mother is not a Roma but your father is. And yet you identify with the
:14:01. > :14:06.Roma. You see yourself as a bridge between the two communities? I know
:14:07. > :14:09.what I'm talking about. There is no difference between these groups in
:14:10. > :14:15.the marriage of my parents and the mixed communities where we are all
:14:16. > :14:20.living. There is a need and there is space for peaceful successful living
:14:21. > :14:25.together. This country needs newcomers, young new generation of
:14:26. > :14:30.Roma. If you are talking about the demography of Europe, this is needed
:14:31. > :14:39.and this workforce cannot be educated in segregated education. We
:14:40. > :14:46.need these young people to be good workers by 2015. Many countries have
:14:47. > :14:53.such a huge amount of problems within the working strata. That is
:14:54. > :14:59.going to cause an economic problem, not only a social one. You think
:15:00. > :15:04.that the solution to the marginalisation and lack of
:15:05. > :15:15.opportunities is to make sure that they have proper education and that
:15:16. > :15:22.they are given the skills. We need a Roma working class and he private
:15:23. > :15:26.sector has a role to play? The Roma strategy means jobs, factories,
:15:27. > :15:30.making sure that the segregated living conditions do not exist,
:15:31. > :15:36.making sure that United schools exist. If segregated schools exist
:15:37. > :15:40.they must be as good as the rest. We need to make sure that these
:15:41. > :15:48.children can comply with the pledges that the European strategy and the
:15:49. > :15:51.requires of them. You need to break the negative stereotypes according
:15:52. > :15:57.to George Soros. They need to take pride in their Roma heritage. If you
:15:58. > :16:05.look at your own country, Hungary, you represent Fidesz Party. It is
:16:06. > :16:12.not great to be a Roma in Hungary? You are not doing while their. It
:16:13. > :16:24.used to be much worse. But it is not good? It is just as bad it has grown
:16:25. > :16:27.in the past three years into a much better atmosphere. There are more
:16:28. > :16:35.Roma working and going to university. Two years ago we had,
:16:36. > :16:37.marching on the street, and Thai Roma marchers. The Hungarian
:16:38. > :16:44.government made sure that the laws forbid it. We have the best and most
:16:45. > :16:52.progressive European Roma strategy in place. We are the only country
:16:53. > :17:03.with laws against beating Roma. But is not working. You have much as
:17:04. > :17:07.against the Roma. The major charity says that Roma children in Hungary
:17:08. > :17:11.are still segregated and receive substandard education and that the
:17:12. > :17:19.government merely pays lip service to integration. Not at all. I know
:17:20. > :17:25.the organisation and they know what sort of work they do. I know what
:17:26. > :17:34.social organisations have been doing in the past 20 years. Finally now,
:17:35. > :17:48.after 20 years of lip service, from non- Roma organisations, finally now
:17:49. > :17:58.the money is arriving. But what about the comment? But you still
:17:59. > :18:02.have a long way to go in Hungary. The co-founder of the Fidesz Party,
:18:03. > :18:16.you know what he wrote? I will give you an example. She said that these
:18:17. > :18:20.gypsies are animals and they behave like animals. They should not exist.
:18:21. > :18:25.One has to solve that using all means available. How can you be a
:18:26. > :18:32.member of a party and that is the co-founder and that is what he
:18:33. > :18:34.wrote? This is very sad and for 20 years I have been working to make
:18:35. > :18:40.sure that these things do not happen. Much more disturbing for the
:18:41. > :18:47.EU and for us is when a prime minister talks like this, like the
:18:48. > :18:50.Slovakian Prime Minister. Policymakers, if they are not aware
:18:51. > :18:56.of the situation and if they are not aware of the tools that they
:18:57. > :19:00.have... You content being a member of a party where that is one of the
:19:01. > :19:09.cofounders and he writes that kind of thing? The reason I had to be
:19:10. > :19:14.much more progressive in this and why a do not stop working with those
:19:15. > :19:18.groups and NGOs and so-called advocacy groups who are not really
:19:19. > :19:27.advocating for Roma but are trying to make sure that the anti- Roma
:19:28. > :19:33.card is played against people. For me it was extremely important that
:19:34. > :19:39.it was only Fidesz Party in the history of the EU that gave place to
:19:40. > :19:50.a Roma in the Parliament. They gave me a free hand. But that is because
:19:51. > :19:54.they wanted to bring you in. You are the only Roma in the European
:19:55. > :20:01.Parliament and you are from Hungary so when the Prime Minister said that
:20:02. > :20:09.the party wants to be sent, you are happy to be a token like that? I am
:20:10. > :20:15.not a token. If you see how much I am much more a Roma advocate that a
:20:16. > :20:26.politician, and if you see what history I have in NGOs in Europe
:20:27. > :20:33.then you will see that I am everything but not a token of the
:20:34. > :20:36.Fidesz Party. I was looked for by other Liberal and socialist groups
:20:37. > :20:41.as well which I used to work with for 20 years until I was studying.
:20:42. > :20:51.They were very much windowdressing. I knew it. My experience as a
:20:52. > :20:55.parliamentarian... So use bind the left. People would feel that it was
:20:56. > :21:03.the left that are more favourable to minority groups. It was important to
:21:04. > :21:08.me and for the Roma to move those parties, the Conservatives, they
:21:09. > :21:18.were the only ones that were ready to push it. A prominent Romanian
:21:19. > :21:23.Roma said in December that a plan to open up a Roma political party with
:21:24. > :21:29.candidates for the EU elections. Is that a good idea? Why not have
:21:30. > :21:34.strength in numbers and say that we Roma will join hands? It could be a
:21:35. > :21:39.good solution and it is happening elsewhere. But what you have to know
:21:40. > :21:46.and what very few people know is that there is not a homogeneous Roma
:21:47. > :21:54.identity across Europe. In Hungary there are 33 different dialects of
:21:55. > :21:59.our language but only 4% of the Hungarian Roma are speaking the main
:22:00. > :22:03.language. All around Europe you will see Muslim groups, you will see
:22:04. > :22:10.other minorities in Spain and France, they are completely
:22:11. > :22:17.different groups. Sometimes they can only speak in English. But you also
:22:18. > :22:21.have a common experience of discrimination, persecution. Is that
:22:22. > :22:26.not enough? This could be what unites us and I think that it is
:22:27. > :22:30.important that would build on our history together. It is important to
:22:31. > :22:38.introduce a Remembrance Day about the Roma Holocaust victims. Under
:22:39. > :22:45.the Nazis many Roma were killed. Huge numbers were killed and very
:22:46. > :22:47.few words are said about this. The Economist magazine wrote in August
:22:48. > :22:52.that the discrimination and hatred that the Roma suffer is the result
:22:53. > :22:56.of complex reasons that will take decades to ameliorate. Can the Roma
:22:57. > :23:02.ever be properly integrated and when will that happen? When I wrote this
:23:03. > :23:07.strategy I thought that I was planning for 30 or 40 years. We
:23:08. > :23:12.introduced to the member states the programmes and we asked them to do
:23:13. > :23:16.good projects. From the first year we have looked at these projects and
:23:17. > :23:20.what the Parliament found was that these projects are weak,
:23:21. > :23:25.windowdressing, following the history of the past 20 years, with
:23:26. > :23:32.only lip service as you said but no real projects. The complexity of the
:23:33. > :23:36.projects are missing. Health, education, living conditions, and
:23:37. > :23:43.job issues have to be there altogether. The whole thing has to
:23:44. > :23:48.go down to the regional level. What about integration? Because
:23:49. > :23:53.implementation is not so good I will give it 30 or 40 years. It is a huge
:23:54. > :23:57.time to wait for the Roma community who want to give everything they can
:23:58. > :24:02.to make sure that the integration happens finally. Livia Jaroka, thank
:24:03. > :24:34.you so much. That is how it will look for Friday.
:24:35. > :24:40.Sunshine and showers will be frequent across western areas. Some
:24:41. > :24:41.snow falling across