:00:00. > :00:14.both inside and outside Afghanistan. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome
:00:15. > :00:16.to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Whether the lifetimes of our
:00:17. > :00:21.children, the African elephant may be extinct. It could be hunted to
:00:22. > :00:26.death. Such is the continued lower of ivory. Despite international
:00:27. > :00:32.efforts to ban the trade. In Tanzania, poachers have been killing
:00:33. > :00:36.an average of 30 elephants per day. The government there says it will
:00:37. > :00:41.end the slaughter. But how? My guest is Lazaro Nyalandu. The Minister for
:00:42. > :00:45.Natural Resources and Tourism in Tanzania. Is human greed destined to
:00:46. > :01:19.kill off African elephants? Lazaro Nyalandu, welcome to
:01:20. > :01:24.HARDtalk. Thank you. Let us begin by talking about one of Tanzania's
:01:25. > :01:27.greatest natural assets, the elephant. Your elephant population.
:01:28. > :01:32.Would you accept that Tanzania has an appalling record over the last
:01:33. > :01:42.decade of failing to protect the elephant? The country of Tanzania
:01:43. > :01:47.has gone the distance in protecting the wildlife. Historically, in 1961,
:01:48. > :01:50.when we gained independence, Tanzania had 350,000 elephants.
:01:51. > :01:58.Because of the enormous poaching at River Dee that took lace in the 80s,
:01:59. > :02:05.the number of elephants dropped to a little over 50,000. -- activity. The
:02:06. > :02:16.military were ordered into rain in the trade. The number of 110
:02:17. > :02:20.thousand elephants came up. It shows the effort that we have employed to
:02:21. > :02:24.be able to protect the elephant. There is a careful use of statistics
:02:25. > :02:29.there. I am more interested in the last few years. Since 2007, the
:02:30. > :02:33.conservationist in your country so the elephant population has almost
:02:34. > :02:38.halved. You only have between 60 and 70,000 elephants left. Numbers are
:02:39. > :02:43.declining, and have declined dramatically. The elephant poaching
:02:44. > :02:52.has reached unprecedented situation. As you know, the
:02:53. > :02:55.statistics. Because of the enormous appetite for ivory in China, in
:02:56. > :03:00.countries like Vietnam, Japan, you name it, the number of elephants
:03:01. > :03:06.being killed every day have completely increased. That is the
:03:07. > :03:11.reason why it the government of the President of Tanzania took the
:03:12. > :03:15.position as early as last October to send in the military. We were the
:03:16. > :03:18.first African country to order in military operations within our own
:03:19. > :03:23.borders. So that we would be able to secure the elephants. And other wild
:03:24. > :03:28.species from poachers. We will get to the future in a moment. I want
:03:29. > :03:33.you to consider how it is that your government failed so badly in the
:03:34. > :03:38.very recent past. In 2010, 2012, we know your own records show that more
:03:39. > :03:43.than 10,000 elephants were killed in a year. That is more than 30 per
:03:44. > :03:51.day. How could your government let that happen Osemwegie Semi Eboigbe
:03:52. > :03:55.two things have happened. One, the poaching level had become completely
:03:56. > :04:02.unprecedented. It is your job to stop that. Secondly we have gone the
:04:03. > :04:06.distance as a government. We took extraordinary measures. Including
:04:07. > :04:11.the use in 2011 and 2010, the president ordered the use of the
:04:12. > :04:18.military through an intelligence led operation. Very very successful. We
:04:19. > :04:27.intercepted, and I want to tell you this, we impounded in our country,
:04:28. > :04:37.in our own borders, 12.2 tonnes of illegal ivory. We caught 300 people
:04:38. > :04:43.who were arrested last year in the judicial system. What I am saying is
:04:44. > :04:46.that we have gone the distance. You keep telling me that you have gone
:04:47. > :04:50.the distance, but the elephants in your country are not being
:04:51. > :04:55.adequately protected. You talk about the few times of ivory that you have
:04:56. > :05:01.managed to impound, we know from the catchments of ivory in Asia, Hong
:05:02. > :05:07.Kong in particular, that tonnes and tonnes of ivory from Tanzania is
:05:08. > :05:13.getting through. It is going to those dealers and traffickers in
:05:14. > :05:19.Asia. Stephen, what I would like to say is the battle for elephants is
:05:20. > :05:28.waging on every minute we speak. Every single day. The Tanzanian
:05:29. > :05:33.military and intelligence agencies are working. Either way, we have
:05:34. > :05:38.lost 25 rave men and women in the line of duty. These suffered loss of
:05:39. > :05:43.life, and because of this, the government is putting unprecedented
:05:44. > :05:46.effort. And without this effort, there would be absolutely not a
:05:47. > :05:51.single elephant left. What I would like the world to understand is that
:05:52. > :05:55.we would like the world to come together. We would like the entire
:05:56. > :06:00.world community to ask these market countries to please stop the ivory.
:06:01. > :06:05.Every time somebody somewhere in China is wearing an ivory products,
:06:06. > :06:11.they need to understand a aided poachers to put a bullet on the head
:06:12. > :06:17.of an elephant. Maybe, rather than focusing on something that you in
:06:18. > :06:22.Tanzania can't directly influence , the demand side in Asia, maybe you
:06:23. > :06:31.should focus on the supply side. That is the fact that the ivory
:06:32. > :06:35.poaching business in your country involves senior police, and security
:06:36. > :06:40.officials. It involves senior politicians, it involves big
:06:41. > :06:47.businessmen. Why did you tackle that? It is particularly interesting
:06:48. > :06:56.to note that the government of Tanzania have taken extreme
:06:57. > :07:05.measures. We have put behind us very senior politicians. -- behind bars.
:07:06. > :07:11.Who? We have people in custody, let me finish. Our law makes no
:07:12. > :07:16.difference between an individual and a young guy. If you are involved in
:07:17. > :07:23.poaching, we will come after you. Last year, these statistics, when we
:07:24. > :07:31.spoke to Prince Charles, 320 persons. From China, from Tanzania,
:07:32. > :07:36.have been arrested. A full measure of our law. These are the efforts
:07:37. > :07:40.that the world needs to understand. We are taking these battles very
:07:41. > :07:44.seriously. You keep telling you that. I would love you to tell me
:07:45. > :07:49.who are these very senior politicians who have paid the price.
:07:50. > :07:55.Who have been convicted of involvement in the poaching network?
:07:56. > :08:02.Who are they? The names of 320 people, I wouldn't remember them. I
:08:03. > :08:06.don't need 320 names, I would just like to pin down, in your phrase,
:08:07. > :08:10.the senior politicians who have been nailed for involvement in this
:08:11. > :08:17.crime. I will tell you two for example. We fired, from my
:08:18. > :08:23.department, I took the initiative to fire 27 senior officials who were
:08:24. > :08:36.involved in these activities. One of them, for example, was responsible
:08:37. > :08:39.for the entire party. These are not small people these are responsible
:08:40. > :08:46.for wildlife protection. These are people with a mandate to protect the
:08:47. > :08:48.wildlife. They are being taken to court. With respect, that isn't the
:08:49. > :08:50.level are thought you were addressing. We cannot forget that
:08:51. > :08:57.your predecessor as minister responsible for antipoaching
:08:58. > :09:02.activities has said that he was determined to take on a business
:09:03. > :09:07.that he said involved rich people and politicians who form a very
:09:08. > :09:13.sophisticated network. I want to know what you are going to do about
:09:14. > :09:18.the elite businessmen and the politicians who your own predecessor
:09:19. > :09:26.says are absolutely in the thick of this poaching network? I again want
:09:27. > :09:30.to say we have the names, of the politicians, and when I say
:09:31. > :09:33.politicians, I mean very senior people with whom we are
:09:34. > :09:40.investigating. As soon as the investigations... The network in
:09:41. > :09:45.Tanzania says there are people going to the very top. We know what he
:09:46. > :09:51.means. He means people close to the ruler of your country, the
:09:52. > :09:54.president. You telling me that you believe that there are people going
:09:55. > :10:00.all the way to the very top who are involved in this business? The
:10:01. > :10:06.president of Tanzania is the man whose heart is for conservation. He
:10:07. > :10:08.is the master, Chief protector of the wildlife. He is personally
:10:09. > :10:14.involved in everyday activity in terms of conservation. He has been
:10:15. > :10:21.at the forefront of assisting the conservation effort. We have just
:10:22. > :10:25.established on the figures, the last five years have been a disaster. He
:10:26. > :10:29.has been the president supervising a disaster for the elephant deletion
:10:30. > :10:33.of your country. What can one conclude about that? You need to
:10:34. > :10:37.understand that the past five years have been a disastrous year for
:10:38. > :10:42.elephants globally. Tanzania included. Because of enormous demand
:10:43. > :10:49.from everywhere in the world, we have taken measures as a country, we
:10:50. > :10:56.have protected elephants, and from 2011 and 2012, 2013, we have
:10:57. > :10:59.arrested so many senior people. Every time people would say who are
:11:00. > :11:06.the senior people? Last week, before I came, we announced the names of
:11:07. > :11:13.320 people. Some of them are members of the European Union. The poaching
:11:14. > :11:17.have no race, no religion, no greed. These are greedy people from
:11:18. > :11:22.all over the world. They are pursuing that demise of the
:11:23. > :11:28.elephants. The president of Tanzania has pledged to take this battle to
:11:29. > :11:33.the enemy. We are taking this battle to the corners of Tanzania. Wherever
:11:34. > :11:37.the poaching is happening, we are going to be there. You have made a
:11:38. > :11:44.lot of points, hang on. I want to ask a very simple question. Why did
:11:45. > :11:48.the President at the Prime Minister fire the man who used to have your
:11:49. > :11:54.job, responsible for antipoaching measures? He had made it plain that
:11:55. > :12:04.he threw his operation was going to take on the poachers in a new way?
:12:05. > :12:11.Why was he then fired? Let me make this clear. He, together with three
:12:12. > :12:17.other ministers, defence, Home Affairs and livestock Minister took
:12:18. > :12:28.political responsibility following the botched operation which was
:12:29. > :12:33.alleged to have breached human rights restrictions. We have a
:12:34. > :12:36.responsibility to ensure that those concerns are absolutely addressed.
:12:37. > :12:42.As part of that, the president of Tanzania in December 2013 made an
:12:43. > :12:48.announcement to establish the judicial commission of enquiry to
:12:49. > :12:55.look at these allegations. By the way we have to go back and send in
:12:56. > :12:59.the military to our vast territories to defeat these poachers. Because of
:13:00. > :13:05.that, because of the operation, and allegations of human rights that
:13:06. > :13:08.were raised, the Minister and three other ministers took political
:13:09. > :13:14.responsibility. I wanted to mention, and to make this point very clear.
:13:15. > :13:22.To many people globally have no idea how big this country is. 55,000
:13:23. > :13:33.square kilometres. How many game Rangers do we have? 320. The point
:13:34. > :13:38.is... You have hundreds of game Rangers, trying to control this last
:13:39. > :13:40.territory, and you can't convince anyone around the world that you
:13:41. > :13:53.have anything like sufficient resources. We do, we will put every
:13:54. > :13:56.resource we have at use. We are scaling up in terms of boots on the
:13:57. > :14:03.ground. More men and women on the ground. We are making sure we
:14:04. > :14:07.improve the training. We want to get additional training. We are likely
:14:08. > :14:12.to use drone technology in the future. If you think of Serengeti
:14:13. > :14:20.National Park, the National Parks and Tanzania, they are over 57,000
:14:21. > :14:22.square kilometres. They are like a couple of European countries. They
:14:23. > :14:25.are vast territories. I have some knowledge myself of how vast the
:14:26. > :14:28.territory is. The problem is not easy. But it would suggest it is.
:14:29. > :14:44.But it is a question of priorities. Unless you pay your Game ranger? The
:14:45. > :14:48.man on the ground who has to first report what you might see as
:14:49. > :14:54.suspicious activity, who is actually the point man, trying to protect the
:14:55. > :14:59.offence. How much are they paid? With the system, 51,000 square
:15:00. > :15:07.kilometres is covered by some of the best paid game rangers in Africa.
:15:08. > :15:10.The third level is game rangers and the director of wildlife in
:15:11. > :15:19.Tanzania. These are quite poorly paid. How much are they paid? I'm
:15:20. > :15:27.getting that. By the end of November this year, I have proposed new
:15:28. > :15:32.legislation. We are restructuring the entire game rangers. Game
:15:33. > :15:41.rangers in Tanzania will have the same type of pay and remuneration.
:15:42. > :15:48.This will be scaled up. We are going to do everything we can to make sure
:15:49. > :15:52.the scale up their pay. It seems extraordinary. In one of the best
:15:53. > :15:58.paying countries in Africa is not the world, your salary is more than
:15:59. > :16:04.80,000 US dollars plus allowances. Over 100,000 US dollars per annum.
:16:05. > :16:07.You pay your park rangers, who are the focus, the frontline of this
:16:08. > :16:17.particular problem, the peasants assistance wages. -- you pay them
:16:18. > :16:22.subsistence wages. Tanzania is taking teaching seriously. The
:16:23. > :16:27.President of Tanzania himself has invested his own pride and
:16:28. > :16:35.leadership to make sure he leads us into this battle in the world
:16:36. > :16:39.community. They are appreciative of what we are doing. If I may say, we
:16:40. > :16:46.are the largest single African country, not only with the best in
:16:47. > :16:49.terms of the World Heritage sites, with the Serengeti, Mount
:16:50. > :16:57.Kilimanjaro, the reserves, the conservation area, this is the
:16:58. > :17:01.point. This is a place with Zanzibar. Who else has Zanzibar in
:17:02. > :17:06.the world? We are inviting people to come to see these resting places.
:17:07. > :17:11.Importantly, we want the world to join hands with us. Conservation is
:17:12. > :17:17.about the world. We are the custodians. No doubt about that.
:17:18. > :17:22.What needs to believe is that you are credible. You say you will do
:17:23. > :17:28.everything to protect this endangered species. Let me quote
:17:29. > :17:33.you. A final point on the politics of this. An opposition spokesman on
:17:34. > :17:37.your portfolio said the government is doing nothing because some of the
:17:38. > :17:42.people who are supposed to be salting this problem are in fact a
:17:43. > :17:47.part of the problem. It is important to say that everything said by the
:17:48. > :17:52.opposition in the UK against a Conservative government were true,
:17:53. > :18:00.this country would be in a me. The point is, we are doing everything we
:18:01. > :18:07.can. -- mayhem. And a politician like that understands what is
:18:08. > :18:16.happening. It is important to scale up everything. We have assets,
:18:17. > :18:22.including improving the way we use the communities. In Tanzania, the
:18:23. > :18:29.community policing wildlife is very best results. They are
:18:30. > :18:34.participating. We have the best intelligence to arrest the bad guys.
:18:35. > :18:41.They are members of the community with the intelligence network. All
:18:42. > :18:51.of the government machinery is and assets and teams working together
:18:52. > :18:55.are winning the battle. -- efforts. One of the key discussion areas in
:18:56. > :19:01.the ivory trade is what happens to the ivory which is impounded,
:19:02. > :19:04.captured the antipoaching operation? For many years, it has been
:19:05. > :19:09.stockpiled by governments who have kept it and then actually asked the
:19:10. > :19:14.right to sell it on a cold conditions to boost the public
:19:15. > :19:22.revenue. Yes. How much I've read that your government business in its
:19:23. > :19:30.stockpile? 118,000 tonnes. That is a lot. That is worth billions of
:19:31. > :19:36.dollars. Between 50 and 60 million US dollars. That is the estimated
:19:37. > :19:43.price. But this is the point. We kept the ivory stockpile in two
:19:44. > :19:49.forms. One is illegal ivory. When the elephant eyes of old age or
:19:50. > :19:57.natural causes, we keep the ivory. -- legal. The most important thing
:19:58. > :20:04.is that... Has outlined how much you have got. The director of
:20:05. > :20:08.environment investigation agency says the best thing to do with the
:20:09. > :20:14.global stockpile of ivory is to destroy it all. That is the only way
:20:15. > :20:21.you can entirely delegitimise the ivory trade. You prepare to do that?
:20:22. > :20:26.During a conference, the President of Tanzania led African leaders to
:20:27. > :20:32.demand a complete total ban of ivory. He said, legal ivory must be
:20:33. > :20:43.banned. Illegal ivory must be bad. Did he destroyed you will destroy
:20:44. > :20:49.his stockpile? -- did he say? Go back to the first point. The
:20:50. > :20:55.President of Chad and Ethiopia... A moratorium. A suspension of sales of
:20:56. > :21:00.your stockpile. He did say that he would in public destroy it or burn
:21:01. > :21:08.it and get rid of the ivory forever. This is to his credit. One president
:21:09. > :21:14.said Tanzania is now putting it stockpile beyond economic use. This
:21:15. > :21:18.is the first time ever in terms of the policy would have changed. We
:21:19. > :21:24.pledged to the world we are not going to put our stockpile as part
:21:25. > :21:37.of economic benefit whatsoever. We are fighting teaching. I am turning
:21:38. > :21:42.a corner. Tanzania's reputation. He accept what has happened in
:21:43. > :21:46.Tanzania, you are Ground Zero, the worst cases elephant poaching in the
:21:47. > :21:52.whole of Africa, it been terrible for your country's image. The world
:21:53. > :21:55.must understand this is important. At the centre of the fight against
:21:56. > :22:01.elephant poaching has been in Tanzania. The government has taken
:22:02. > :22:11.extra measures. The only time a country in Africa when the regime
:22:12. > :22:16.change for democracy. The point is, that the military to change what was
:22:17. > :22:21.happening in the bush. The President ordered the whole military to fight
:22:22. > :22:29.the purchase. This is the only country in Africa to have taken it a
:22:30. > :22:37.military to go fight a battle within their own country. Winning this
:22:38. > :22:42.battle. We got over 2000 weapons. Military grade weapons used by
:22:43. > :22:48.poachers. We are saving lives, not only elephants' people's lives. A
:22:49. > :22:53.positive spin. Your predecessor lost his job. He believed it was because
:22:54. > :22:57.he challenged vested interests who are in the thick of the poaching
:22:58. > :23:05.business. When you were his deputy, you said that big names inside the
:23:06. > :23:08.Cabinet, the army, the authority and police are implicated in the
:23:09. > :23:14.poaching network. These were your words. Which matters more to you?
:23:15. > :23:20.Keeping your job or being true to taking on the poaching? The first
:23:21. > :23:23.point is my predecessor took political responsibility together
:23:24. > :23:28.with three other ministers. We discussed that. The point that your
:23:29. > :23:35.predecessor was he was serious about tackling the purchase. You serious
:23:36. > :23:38.as well? Are you prepared to make a stand that might involve taking on
:23:39. > :23:44.the most powerful interests in your country? We make the distinctions
:23:45. > :23:51.between those who poach and those who support poaching, those involved
:23:52. > :23:55.in the laundering and those might be of big premise and political clout.
:23:56. > :24:02.We are taking everybody to the full measure of law. We will win this
:24:03. > :24:06.battle. This is an issue we will revisit the future. But for now,
:24:07. > :24:33.thank you, Lazaro Nyalandu for joining me on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:34. > :24:41.The mild winter will turn warmer on Monday. Temperatures close to 15
:24:42. > :24:44.degrees in some spots. Typically, wet and windy weather eastwards
:24:45. > :24:50.through the night. Today, a mixture of just about everything. Sunshine,
:24:51. > :24:52.almost spring-like warmth, a few lively showers. Showers the most