:00:17. > :00:20.It is now time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen
:00:21. > :00:23.Sackur. For many Americans, firearms are a symbol of freedom. The Right
:00:24. > :00:26.to bear arms is treated with the same reverence as life, liberty, and
:00:27. > :00:32.the pursuit of happiness. Guns kill extraordinary numbers of US
:00:33. > :00:36.citizens. 30000 and more every year. Maybe it is time to better regulate
:00:37. > :00:41.the firearms business. My guess is the recently retired president of
:00:42. > :00:44.the National Rifle Association, David Keene. Does the gun lobby
:00:45. > :01:09.really stand up for American values? David Keene, welcome to London and
:01:10. > :01:20.welcome to tap -- HARDtalk. Thank you for 88 guns owned by every 100
:01:21. > :01:24.citizens of your country? 40% of the world's civilian owned guns are in
:01:25. > :01:32.America? Is that a reason to celebrate? We think it is a reason
:01:33. > :01:37.to celebrate. 44%, 45% of all Americans have a firearm in a home.
:01:38. > :01:41.300 million privately owned firearms, about a third of those are
:01:42. > :01:48.pistols and the rest are a long guns. You think that that is a cause
:01:49. > :01:50.for celebration because...? Their second amendment and their firearms
:01:51. > :01:57.culture represents something in the US which goes to the heart of the
:01:58. > :01:59.way the country was founded. It represents freedom. It represents in
:02:00. > :02:04.the second amendment of the Constitution, the recognition of a
:02:05. > :02:10.much older right, the right of self defence. A lot of the firearms owned
:02:11. > :02:13.are owned for that reason. That is one reason that firearm ownership
:02:14. > :02:19.has been increasing massively in recent years. Let me stop you there.
:02:20. > :02:25.There are some extraordinary ideas behind what you just said. The gun
:02:26. > :02:30.represents freedom. America was founded, as you know, by men and
:02:31. > :02:37.women carving a country out of the wilderness. It was threatened. It
:02:38. > :02:44.was founded by resistance to the British. They came over and of
:02:45. > :02:49.course the shots were fired as British troops came to disarm the
:02:50. > :02:55.colonists. If they had firearms, could they could stand up their own
:02:56. > :02:59.right. In 1776, firearms were important for those fighting
:03:00. > :03:02.colonial rule. I'm thinking about America in 2014. I'm thinking about
:03:03. > :03:08.the way people live their lives. For example, you, David Keene, recently
:03:09. > :03:15.retired president of the NRA, do you feel more free when you carry a gun?
:03:16. > :03:17.I don't carry a gun all the time. I certainly feel freer because I have
:03:18. > :03:22.that right and because I have the right to protect myself and my
:03:23. > :03:25.family and my community. I am a hunter so I had firearms to hunt.
:03:26. > :03:30.They shoot competitively occasionally as do a lot of
:03:31. > :03:34.Americans. I have the freedom to own a firearm, to keep it and use it for
:03:35. > :03:41.legitimate purposes as the millions of other Americans. They do, in
:03:42. > :03:44.fact, feel free as a result of that. One of the fundamentals of feeling
:03:45. > :03:50.free is surely feeling security in your own community and society. The
:03:51. > :03:53.prevalence of guns in the US - more guns arraigned in the US than
:03:54. > :03:58.anywhere else in the world, it certainly hasn't made America safer
:03:59. > :04:03.place, has its? On contrary, it has. It is hard to get completely
:04:04. > :04:09.accurate figures because our lot do not go reported but according to the
:04:10. > :04:15.Justice Department, 1984 is the last set of figures of this kind which we
:04:16. > :04:21.have bite some 495,000 times in that year, firearms were used to thwart
:04:22. > :04:28.break-ins to homes. That doesn't mean that 495,000 people were shot
:04:29. > :04:34.or that the firearms were used but merely showing those firearms are
:04:35. > :04:38.scared off the intruder. Surely, the matter of security is the homicide
:04:39. > :04:43.rate. The homicide rate in the US by firearms is so much higher,
:04:44. > :04:48.proportionally, then in comparator countries such as where you are
:04:49. > :04:53.right now. By firearms but the violent crime rate is not... The US
:04:54. > :04:56.from 1984 until today... The homicide rate in the US compared
:04:57. > :05:00.with Germany is vital six times higher? That is not necessarily
:05:01. > :05:08.because of firearms. The homicide rate in the US all over since 1984
:05:09. > :05:12.has been halved at a time when firearms ownership has increased
:05:13. > :05:17.massively. It is hard to equate in a causal way the ownership of firearms
:05:18. > :05:22.with a number of homicides which take place in society. The National
:05:23. > :05:26.Academy of Sciences and the Journal of quantitative chronology have done
:05:27. > :05:30.studies over the years and they have concluded separately that the US has
:05:31. > :05:35.a rate of gun related deaths that is roughly eight times higher than
:05:36. > :05:39.other comparable developed nations. That might be true although the
:05:40. > :05:44.violent crime rate in the US is not anywhere near the highest in the
:05:45. > :05:46.world... We are talking about comparable developed nations. You
:05:47. > :05:50.could live in homes Uris which has pretty much the highest homicide
:05:51. > :05:54.rate in the world but the US would not expect to be compared with and
:05:55. > :05:59.Uris. It might expect to be compared with France, Germany or the UK or
:06:00. > :06:04.Japan. Especially in the case of Japan, there are so many
:06:05. > :06:09.differences. We can't demonstrate conclusively using empirical
:06:10. > :06:15.evidence that the homicide rate drops because of gun ownership. We
:06:16. > :06:18.can demonstrate with conclusive evidence that increase firearms
:06:19. > :06:23.ownership does not increase at the homicide rate. Then give you
:06:24. > :06:27.example. Today, over the course of the last 20 years, most states have
:06:28. > :06:33.passed what we call concealed carry laws which allow a citizen to own a
:06:34. > :06:39.SideArm and two in fact carry it as long as he has a permit. In every
:06:40. > :06:44.state in which that law has been passed, the homicide rate and the
:06:45. > :06:50.violent crime rate has dropped. Can we prove that that is causal? No.
:06:51. > :06:54.But it has not increased. It has dropped. Guns make you and you would
:06:55. > :06:58.argue they can Americans feel safer. I would suggest to you that a
:06:59. > :07:02.proposition has been sorely tested in the last couple of years. Not
:07:03. > :07:06.least during your tenure as president of the NRA. By one
:07:07. > :07:11.particular event which struck a chord around the world, never mind
:07:12. > :07:15.just America. The mass killing at Sandy Hook elementary school in
:07:16. > :07:19.Newtown, Connecticut, where Adam Lanza, a young man went on a rampage
:07:20. > :07:26.and killed 20 children and six teachers. You were the figurehead
:07:27. > :07:30.boss of the NRA at the time. How did you feel when you heard what had
:07:31. > :07:35.happened there? Tragedies of that sort or any sort where losing one
:07:36. > :07:41.might chew and auto accident or a gun crime or whatever is a tragedy
:07:42. > :07:44.and should be minimised. I happened to be in Israel and that happened
:07:45. > :07:50.and the day that Sandy Hook shooting took place, I was in fact touring a
:07:51. > :07:53.training facility with a school security guards being trained in
:07:54. > :07:56.Israel because they require security guard that all schools. That is
:07:57. > :08:00.police or the military. They have contracted guards at each school has
:08:01. > :08:05.to make arrangements for. When we got back to this country, we have
:08:06. > :08:10.been, at the NRA, warning for years that one of the problems we have,
:08:11. > :08:17.one of the groups in the US which is prohibited from owning firearms are
:08:18. > :08:19.those people who have been declared potentially dangerously mentally
:08:20. > :08:25.ill. There are background checks when you go to a gun store to get a
:08:26. > :08:27.firearm which we supported and we had to lobby for appropriation is to
:08:28. > :08:31.make sure that the system was working correctly. 23 states have
:08:32. > :08:35.never put those people in that category into that system. The
:08:36. > :08:41.president of the US like to talk about gun violence but there are gun
:08:42. > :08:45.crimes like Chicago and there is gun violence like what happened at Sandy
:08:46. > :08:50.Hook. In almost every case of gun violence, gun mass shootings, we
:08:51. > :08:54.aren't talking about criminals or career criminals or transactional
:08:55. > :08:57.criminals. We are talking about people who are severely mentally ill
:08:58. > :09:01.whether it takes place in the US or China or Europe or where ever. Get
:09:02. > :09:07.to background checks in a minute but sticking with Adam Lanza, you know
:09:08. > :09:14.that the weapon he was using was a bushmaster rifle, capable of firing
:09:15. > :09:19.up to 45 rpm. A semiautomatic rifle can fire everytime you pull the
:09:20. > :09:24.trigger. It takes magazines that have 30 bullets. It takes magazines
:09:25. > :09:31.with however many. You can change those in one second. That is my
:09:32. > :09:40.point. You will find that many in a minute and they have tested it.
:09:41. > :09:43.Whether it is 20 or 30 or 40 is not relevant. Adam Lanza had a lethal
:09:44. > :09:49.weapon capable of firing multiple rounds per minute. He kills many
:09:50. > :09:54.young children without weapon. That weapon, under President Clinton's
:09:55. > :09:58.ten year ban, was banned. You fought against that ban and in 20 04 when
:09:59. > :10:04.the ban expired, you made certain that it was not renewed. You feel
:10:05. > :10:08.remorse that? I do not feel remorseful I feel that the system
:10:09. > :10:11.fails when you cannot deal with the kind of mental health issues that
:10:12. > :10:17.resulted in what happened at Sandy Hook. Mental health issues are
:10:18. > :10:22.important. Let's get back to that. Why did any American need a weapon
:10:23. > :10:27.like that? The ARF 15, the semiautomatic version of the
:10:28. > :10:34.military weapon is owned by about 4.5 million Americans. -- AR15. It
:10:35. > :10:39.is the single platform that is useful long arm rifle training, for
:10:40. > :10:46.competition, for fun at the range and is used for hunting. In the
:10:47. > :10:50.Supreme Court decision which dealt with the individual right to keep
:10:51. > :10:53.and bear Arms, there was a paragraph which said that any constitutional
:10:54. > :10:58.right is subject to restriction but one thing you cannot ban is a
:10:59. > :11:04.firearm which is widely used and widely owned for legal purposes.
:11:05. > :11:09.That decision was about the right to have a gun. Defence in a home. You
:11:10. > :11:10.do not need a bushmaster semiautomatic rifle firing multiple
:11:11. > :11:16.rounds per minute to defend your home. That's your opinion but the
:11:17. > :11:20.fact of the matter is that the decision deals with what kind of
:11:21. > :11:25.firearms and one can own. Already as a result of that decision, it
:11:26. > :11:30.doesn't apply... The Supreme Court did not say that you can earn any
:11:31. > :11:36.gun however lethal, you can earn a bazooka... It did say that there are
:11:37. > :11:40.certain kinds of firearms which you cannot ban. Let us also consider
:11:41. > :11:44.background checks. You made a great point of saying that we need better
:11:45. > :11:49.background checks. Why is it that after Sandy Hook when President
:11:50. > :11:54.Obama and indeed senators in the US Congress tried to pass a bill which
:11:55. > :12:02.used up background checks on all commercial gun sales across America
:12:03. > :12:10.- you were posted. We had to fight for a progression to make sure...
:12:11. > :12:15.Stick to the question. (CROSSTALK). That system they have does not work.
:12:16. > :12:19.The system they have created millions of what are called false
:12:20. > :12:23.positives because people with every right to buy a firearm denied that
:12:24. > :12:30.right under the current system. They have not fixed it since the -- since
:12:31. > :12:34.the 1990s. Because of your position -- opposition, it is thought that
:12:35. > :12:39.40% of gun sales can continue in the US without any sort of background
:12:40. > :12:42.check. That is not true. That is from a survey taken before the
:12:43. > :12:48.background check was put into place. It was a telephone survey and
:12:49. > :12:54.the fact is that most firearms are purchased, especially by first-time
:12:55. > :12:58.gun buyers, from retail outlets. The biggest gun dealer in the US is
:12:59. > :13:01.Walmart. Everyone who goes into those facilities undergoes a
:13:02. > :13:07.background check. That background check does not work. You are so
:13:08. > :13:13.proud of your relationship with the American people. You claim that they
:13:14. > :13:16.are on your site. Clearly, when you opposed the bill and it was not back
:13:17. > :13:20.in the Senate and you made it plain that you are not interested in
:13:21. > :13:26.negotiating to get new gun controls, the American people were not with
:13:27. > :13:31.you at all. One poll found that more than 70% of Americans believed that
:13:32. > :13:38.tough background checks, controls on the size of magazines, was important
:13:39. > :13:41.and should happen. That depended on the question you asked and where you
:13:42. > :13:47.asked it. The background check sounds great. You don't believe that
:13:48. > :13:59.the American people want tougher controls? When you are going to sell
:14:00. > :14:02.or give to a member of your family, there should be a background check,
:14:03. > :14:07.to a neighbour you have known all your life, the answer is no. Simply
:14:08. > :14:12.asking a question that the respondent defines in a way he or
:14:13. > :14:18.she wants to does not give real information on how people feel. That
:14:19. > :14:25.debate went on... I will tell you how one particular person feels. The
:14:26. > :14:32.call, whose son was killed at Sandy Hook elementary, she personally
:14:33. > :14:39.campaigned very hard to get a nationwide and on magazines with
:14:40. > :14:43.more than ten rounds. She believes, because what happens to her son and
:14:44. > :14:48.the fact that Adam Lanza kill fewer people because he had to reload, she
:14:49. > :14:55.believed her experience showed this was important. What you say to her?
:14:56. > :14:58.Somebody who is involved in a tragedy, I do not mean to disagree
:14:59. > :15:07.or argue in the sense of her feelings, but the fact... If you
:15:08. > :15:11.think she has misguided opinions then they just say it. You have to
:15:12. > :15:17.say is too a woman who has just lost her child. I can say that based on
:15:18. > :15:21.the evidence, based on the empirical evidence over time in the country,
:15:22. > :15:27.that that will not solve the problem. The question we asked
:15:28. > :15:33.during the Senate debates: if they had been in effect would that have
:15:34. > :15:39.stopped what happened? The 18 each case was no. A liberal blogger asked
:15:40. > :15:42.when it was all over: how is that when these things happen that in the
:15:43. > :15:46.end fewer people want gun-control then wanted it in the beginning? The
:15:47. > :15:53.Ansett is simple, once you get past the as, you have a debate. -- the
:15:54. > :16:02.Ansett is simple. People say does not make sense. It will not solve
:16:03. > :16:07.the problem. You are willing man at the NRA, the executive vice
:16:08. > :16:13.presidents, after Sandy Hook, just days afterwards, he said this: the
:16:14. > :16:19.only way to stop a bad guy with a garden is a good guy with a garden.
:16:20. > :16:24.Congress should do whatever is necessary to put armed police
:16:25. > :16:32.officers in every school in this nation. Were you proud of that? Yes.
:16:33. > :16:39.What we did as we went on, we found a high-level... Ansett to be problem
:16:40. > :16:45.is more guns? The President immediately made fun of that, as did
:16:46. > :16:49.several newspapers. Until they realise that thousands of American
:16:50. > :17:01.schools already have security. Let us talk NRA tactics. This is from a
:17:02. > :17:06.lifelong member of the NRA she took a stand against one of your
:17:07. > :17:10.policies, which was to support the idea that people in Tennessee could
:17:11. > :17:15.conceal weapons in their cars, the cars can be part and it would be
:17:16. > :17:20.perfectly legal to have a gun concealed in the car, she voted
:17:21. > :17:24.against it. An organisation took against her. She said afterwards,
:17:25. > :17:29.after hundreds of thousands of dollars had been spent against to
:17:30. > :17:35.destroy her campaign, "the NRA will lay about you, they will use
:17:36. > :17:40.intimidation tactics, because of that people are afraid. The message
:17:41. > :17:47.is that if you do do do what we want, we will dilate you." She is
:17:48. > :17:57.not minded to be an opponent of yours. -- we will annihilate you.
:17:58. > :18:02.Politicians are scared of you. Politicians are not scared of us.
:18:03. > :18:10.They are aware of the fact that we speak for a lot of their citizens.
:18:11. > :18:15.We have 5 million members. We represent, formerly, about 1/10 of
:18:16. > :18:18.the people in that state who will vote on the second Amendment issues
:18:19. > :18:25.if they know what is at stake. That is a lot of voters. A lot of people.
:18:26. > :18:32.Politicians are correctly sensitive to the feelings, the believes, and
:18:33. > :18:37.the proclivities of their constituents. Politicians respond to
:18:38. > :18:42.that support. Let us get back to the idea of freedom. From the beginning
:18:43. > :18:46.of this interview, you have framed everything in terms of the second
:18:47. > :18:53.Amendment and guns being a crucial part of every American's liberty --
:18:54. > :18:56.Americans' liberty. The second Amendment does not give you the
:18:57. > :19:05.right to hold any weapon whatsoever. It does not. Why do you not try to
:19:06. > :19:09.find a middle ground is? And middle ground where greater control can be
:19:10. > :19:14.brought into your country and people can still have the right to bear and
:19:15. > :19:21.keep arms? We have taken the position, by the way, we do work
:19:22. > :19:30.with people who are looking for reasonable kinds of things to
:19:31. > :19:34.protect... You clearly do not. They describe President Obama as a fake
:19:35. > :19:46.president. Before he ever ran for office, he was an active anti-
:19:47. > :19:53.second Amendment activists. Is not a fake president, as your successor
:19:54. > :20:02.called him at last year. I do not know that. He is the president, he
:20:03. > :20:05.is hostile to the second Amendment. One journalist said we were
:20:06. > :20:11.clinically insane during the elections of 2012 to suggest that
:20:12. > :20:16.Barack Obama would ever do anything to constrict second Amendment
:20:17. > :20:20.rights. He ran ads in rural states particularly, saying I will never
:20:21. > :20:24.take your rifle, I will never take your pistol, I will never take your
:20:25. > :20:32.shotgun, IMA believe in the second Amendment. Those with statements he
:20:33. > :20:43.did not believe at the time. The second Amendment does not mean it
:20:44. > :20:49.now compromise. When Labour peer said there were no shades of grey in
:20:50. > :20:50.American freedom, surely that is doing a disservice. -- where not
:20:51. > :21:00.weigh-in we will not compromise on the second
:21:01. > :21:09.American right of the American people. We keep talking about the
:21:10. > :21:13.second Amendment. It says a well regulated militia, being necessary
:21:14. > :21:19.to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
:21:20. > :21:29.arms shall not be infringed. Clearly in the context of 1791, for a well
:21:30. > :21:35.regulated militia. It has been meekly that does not give a blanket
:21:36. > :21:42.permission for a Americans to carry arms wherever they want -- been made
:21:43. > :21:49.clear up. Where is the compromise? For example, fully automatic weapons
:21:50. > :21:54.are highly regulated. There is no need for those in private hands.
:21:55. > :22:01.They will put under significant controls. URA lifelong Conservative,
:22:02. > :22:08.you began your career in the Nixon Administration. -- you are a eight.
:22:09. > :22:18.America is changing on all sorts of things. America's social attitude
:22:19. > :22:22.changes, its culture changes, there is real evidence that they are
:22:23. > :22:28.changing their minds on guns. I think the real evidence is the
:22:29. > :22:32.opposite. The firearms community, the sales have increased
:22:33. > :22:37.exponentially. Last year 38% were purchased by women... Because of
:22:38. > :22:43.scare tactics. Not because of scare tactics. Much of our membership is
:22:44. > :22:48.law enforcement. We represent a lot of law enforcement. The enforcement
:22:49. > :22:54.is changing its attitude. I do know if you saw the comments from the
:22:55. > :23:00.police chief in Detroit he said that if he wanted to get things under
:23:01. > :23:08.control that they needed citizens with concealed weapons. When the NRA
:23:09. > :23:12.are at approach by police chiefs, they only have one attitude, they
:23:13. > :23:19.want nothing of it. We do not want gun control. One day you will have
:23:20. > :23:26.to change. Acting the country is changing. I think the world is
:23:27. > :23:32.changing. There was a speech in Colombia, this is a man who was the
:23:33. > :23:38.first American head of Interpol, he was Bill Clinton's enforcement chief
:23:39. > :23:42.who oversaw the gun control laws. He said that he believes every Western
:23:43. > :23:45.country has to rethink its gun control laws because the way
:23:46. > :23:53.Terrorism Act changing, the police and the security forces cannot
:23:54. > :23:57.protect the citizens. -- the way terrorism are changing. If your wife
:23:58. > :24:03.and children are in a maul taken over by jihadists, would you prefer
:24:04. > :24:06.to be in a jurisdiction where private ownership is prohibited or
:24:07. > :24:11.would you prefer to be in Texas? That makes the case. We have to end
:24:12. > :24:33.there. Thank you very much for being here.
:24:34. > :24:40.Sunday was a pretty wet day for many parts of the British Isles. Not
:24:41. > :24:44.quite done without rain. Still lurking with intent across the
:24:45. > :24:48.eastern side of Scotland. Elsewhere, a cold start to the day, as
:24:49. > :24:50.specially so across the western side of Scotland. Through because of the
:24:51. > :24:52.night skies will