:00:00. > :00:14.government in trying to find the girls. Now on BBC, it's time for
:00:15. > :00:17.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. What do you
:00:18. > :00:20.really want to watch on TV? I'd like to believe that it is the serious
:00:21. > :00:22.and challenging interviews you get here on HARDtalk. My guest today
:00:23. > :00:25.maybe has a different take. Jerry maybe has a different take. Jerry
:00:26. > :00:29.Springer is the king of tabloid trash talking television in the US.
:00:30. > :00:34.His show specialises in dysfunctional relationships and sex.
:00:35. > :00:38.His guests curse, they throw chairs and sometimes they fight. Critics
:00:39. > :00:42.call it cynical and manipulative TV, but it's made him famous and rich.
:00:43. > :01:06.So does he care? Jerry Springer, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:07. > :01:08.Thank you for having me. It is incredible. Your show from small
:01:09. > :01:11.beginnings has made you famous around the world and it is still
:01:12. > :01:21.going across America and internationally. Probably because it
:01:22. > :01:25.has a niche. When it first came on, we had never, at least in the
:01:26. > :01:28.States, I can only speak about what goes on there, we had never seen
:01:29. > :01:39.people on my show on television before. American television was
:01:40. > :01:42.primarily upper`middle`class white. All of the sitcoms whether it was
:01:43. > :01:50.Friends or Seinfeld were always well`scrubbed people speaking the
:01:51. > :01:53.Queen's English and all of that. All of a sudden, in 1991, you come on
:01:54. > :01:57.with a show with people who don't speak the Queen's English, they
:01:58. > :02:00.might not be as lucky in their gene pool of parents or whatever, didn't
:02:01. > :02:06.get an education or as much of an education. Yet, what they are
:02:07. > :02:08.concerned about are the same things that wealthy people are concerned
:02:09. > :02:14.about except that wealthy people learn to hide it better. I don't
:02:15. > :02:18.find any difference between the people on my show and, I would even
:02:19. > :02:26.say, the people who ultimately come on your show except that the people
:02:27. > :02:30.of this show are better educated. But to think that they are morally
:02:31. > :02:36.superior to the people on my show, I would say: Wrong, wrong, wrong.
:02:37. > :02:39.Aren't you missing out one step in your story? When you first stepped
:02:40. > :02:43.from politics, you were the mayor of Cincinnati for a while, to doing TV,
:02:44. > :02:46.you did straight news and then when you first got the interview show,
:02:47. > :02:56.from what I understand from looking at the records, it was pretty
:02:57. > :03:00.serious. It was more like my show. But then you discovered that the
:03:01. > :03:03.best way to get ratings and make money was to dumb it right down. OK,
:03:04. > :03:06.that is not accurate but I understand why you would think that.
:03:07. > :03:10.The show changed after three years. Two things. First of all, you make a
:03:11. > :03:16.lot more money doing an Oprah`type show than you do during my show. The
:03:17. > :03:22.other discussion about how we got to the show we had, I'll tell you
:03:23. > :03:29.exactly how it happened. At the time we started, there were 20 other talk
:03:30. > :03:32.shows on television. Everyone was trying to be like Oprah. We were all
:03:33. > :03:35.trying to appeal to the demographic which at that time was referred to
:03:36. > :03:39.as middle`aged housewives. Then, along came Ricki Lake. She was the
:03:40. > :03:45.first talk show to go after young people ` high school and college`age
:03:46. > :03:49.kids. We were walking down Michigan Avenue in Chicago with the executive
:03:50. > :03:53.producer and I say to him, "As a business model, why are we trying to
:03:54. > :03:58.be one out of 20 shows like Oprah, why not go after Ricki's show and be
:03:59. > :04:02.the one out of two?" From the next week, we said that only young people
:04:03. > :04:07.in the audience, young people on stage and young subject matter.
:04:08. > :04:10.Young people are much wilder in their lives, much more open about
:04:11. > :04:19.their lives so the show occasionally went crazy. Universal bought us.
:04:20. > :04:22."From that now on," they said, "you are only allowed to do crazy."
:04:23. > :04:30.That's what the show was. You accepted the rules. You needed it
:04:31. > :04:35.crazy. I wanted to be employed. Of course I did. Why would I quit? I am
:04:36. > :04:40.interested in this: Why did you decide to go as far down the track
:04:41. > :04:43.as you did? Typically on your show, the people you have on it, the
:04:44. > :04:53.titles that you churned out, Pregnant by A Transsexual, Honey,
:04:54. > :04:57.I'm A Call Girl. These are just from the 1990s. As your ratings got
:04:58. > :05:00.higher and the audience got more and more crazy, you went for shows like
:05:01. > :05:09.I Married My Horse, about a guy who had a five`year sexual, romantic
:05:10. > :05:13.relationship with a horse. The implication of the show was that it
:05:14. > :05:18.was sexual. If they were married, you would think so. Even a lot of
:05:19. > :05:22.the affiliates across the US who took your show could not take that
:05:23. > :05:29.one. They said that it was too extreme. It was! Why did you decide
:05:30. > :05:33.that that was the kind of TV which you wanted to make? Why are you
:05:34. > :05:38.proud of it? I'm proud of my show. Why wouldn't I be? Because it's
:05:39. > :05:41.stupid. Yes, it's a stupid show. I always said it was stupid. But for
:05:42. > :05:48.my audience, it's an escape from regular life. Here's what the show
:05:49. > :05:51.is. I'm hired to host a show. I don't choose the guests or am
:05:52. > :05:56.allowed to know what the show is about. I never know what it's about
:05:57. > :06:00.until I walk in and they hand me the card and the card that you see me
:06:01. > :06:04.carrying only has the name of the guests. I'm supposed to ask the
:06:05. > :06:08.questions and then make jokes. That's my job. I don't watch my
:06:09. > :06:17.show. It's not my interest. I would do one on basketball or on politics.
:06:18. > :06:21.That's my interest. If I chose to do one on my interests. You take it of
:06:22. > :06:27.your own volition. You chose to do this show. I'm not saying I
:06:28. > :06:30.shouldn't do it. I love doing it. You tell me it's stupid and you
:06:31. > :06:34.would never watch it yourself and it does turn the people on the show
:06:35. > :06:39.into freaks and losers. You say it gives them a voice but... You have
:06:40. > :06:43.made an elitist judgement that you are superior to the people on the
:06:44. > :06:48.show. You are better educated. You have had better luck with parents.
:06:49. > :06:53.You have a better life but we are all alike. Do not think that the
:06:54. > :07:05.well`educated people are morally superior in any way to people of
:07:06. > :07:08.lower income. For one hour per day, our show is about people that act
:07:09. > :07:12.outrageously. That's what the show is! When you do the news, you don't
:07:13. > :07:16.say, "I'm not going to report a murder because I find murder
:07:17. > :07:20.dysfunctional. I find murder a horrible thing and don't want to be
:07:21. > :07:23.associated with it. I will not do a show that talks about murder and
:07:24. > :07:27.rape". You don't say that. That's your job to report it. It doesn't
:07:28. > :07:30.mean you endorse it. If my job is to show dysfunctional behaviour, I
:07:31. > :07:34.don't say that a man marrying his horse is not dysfunctional. Of
:07:35. > :07:38.course it's dysfunctional! The murders are real. Tragic but real.
:07:39. > :07:46.Yours is a circus show. Yours isn't real. It's real! They are living
:07:47. > :07:51.with a horse! You don't think that's real? That's real. Trust me. If your
:07:52. > :07:56.kid came home one day and said, "I'm marrying a horse", you would say
:07:57. > :07:59.that that's real. You may have found the one human being in the whole of
:08:00. > :08:05.America who thought he had married his horse. Let's not get stuck on
:08:06. > :08:09.the horse. For people who don't know Jerry Springer, it may be worthwhile
:08:10. > :08:11.to look at the style of the show. This particular edition was about a
:08:12. > :08:16.transsexual. It was called Transsexuals Attack. It was about a
:08:17. > :08:25.transsexual woman who was furious with her boyfriend because he has
:08:26. > :08:31.run off with another gay guy. Let's look at the clip. Women don't
:08:32. > :08:44.conduct their selves like this. He wants to be a woman! He can't fill
:08:45. > :08:47.my shoes! INAUDIBLE. If I wanted a woman... I put time in this
:08:48. > :08:59.relationship... You're going to flush this down the toilet with
:09:00. > :09:02.that? CROSSTALK. Now you are telling me that that's not real? Those
:09:03. > :09:08.people aren't really angry about that? Of course they are. That's the
:09:09. > :09:12.great question about honesty and reality. Let me explain to the
:09:13. > :09:15.watchers that the sound was out because you edit out swearing. The
:09:16. > :09:21.show runs through the daytime so we edit out the swear words. You do see
:09:22. > :09:26.plenty of fighting. The talk about being real and honest. You know that
:09:27. > :09:30.back in the late '90s, 1998, 16 people who had been on your show
:09:31. > :09:36.went to the media and said that the fights aren't real. They said, "We
:09:37. > :09:39.are told when and how to fight. It's staged." They were proven wrong. It
:09:40. > :09:43.is not staged. The lawyers were all over it. They made the accusation
:09:44. > :09:51.and we got duped by them because they had made up their stories. That
:09:52. > :09:55.sometimes happens. If you come and watch us, before the show starts,
:09:56. > :09:58.they meet in a room with the lawyers and there is a camera on them while
:09:59. > :10:03.they swear that everything that happens... There are documents to
:10:04. > :10:11.show that it is true. Picking out that in 1998, someone said that they
:10:12. > :10:14.faked it, well none of it is staged. That is wrong. It's not staged. An
:10:15. > :10:17.individual guest may be dishonest from time to time but I'm telling
:10:18. > :10:20.you that with 44,000 guests ` someone was probably on the show
:10:21. > :10:25.once and didn't tell the truth and duped you. That doesn't mean, don't
:10:26. > :10:30.watch HARDtalk anymore because people lie on the show. You speak to
:10:31. > :10:33.politicians so it's a given that they aren't telling the truth!
:10:34. > :10:38.Politicians may be a different category. Let's stick with what you
:10:39. > :10:41.do. Vulnerability. You've had thousands and thousands of guests on
:10:42. > :10:48.the show which you can't even remember, so many. There are many
:10:49. > :10:53.people who had been on your show who probably were on your show against
:10:54. > :10:56.their own better interests. How often do your staff, your team of
:10:57. > :10:58.researchers, come across a great, unbelievable story of emotional
:10:59. > :11:02.turmoil and say, "You know what, we couldn't put you on TV because that
:11:03. > :11:10.would be counter to your own interests"? Quite a few times. I'll
:11:11. > :11:13.tell you the process. We get thousands of calls a week from
:11:14. > :11:17.people who want to be on the show and then give us the story and the
:11:18. > :11:23.producers and researchers check to make sure that it is a true story.
:11:24. > :11:26.Every once in a while, during that interview process it becomes clear,
:11:27. > :11:32.for example, that a person may not be mentally stable or, as you say,
:11:33. > :11:38.really vulnerable. They don't get on the show. Sometimes they do get on
:11:39. > :11:41.the show. I'm thinking about the stories you knew I would bring up.
:11:42. > :11:53.Asking that question assumes that because person is of lower income...
:11:54. > :11:56.You in the news would never, ever ask a question... This isn't about
:11:57. > :12:10.income. This is about what happened after the show. Nancy Panitz came on
:12:11. > :12:14.the show with her ex`husband Ralph. He was in a new relationship. The
:12:15. > :12:17.new woman came on the show as well and the new woman and the husband
:12:18. > :12:21.attacked Nancy, calling her old and fat. Nancy Panitz went off that
:12:22. > :12:24.show, distraught apparently but not so long after, when the show was
:12:25. > :12:34.actually on TV, within hours, there had been a murder. Ralph was
:12:35. > :12:38.convicted of murdering Nancy Panitz. Having exactly nothing to do with
:12:39. > :12:44.the show, which is the part you didn't bother to mention. How do you
:12:45. > :12:48.know? The court said... You asked me how we know. You just made the
:12:49. > :12:52.inference that because someone was on a show, four months later they
:12:53. > :12:57.committed murder, that that has to do with the show? You don't know
:12:58. > :13:00.what happened that day. That day they got into a big fight about
:13:01. > :13:05.being evicted from house which had nothing to do with the television
:13:06. > :13:08.show. If you are asking me if of the 44,000 people on the show, whether
:13:09. > :13:15.any one of those 44,000 people subsequently ever committed a crime,
:13:16. > :13:18.of course. You give me any population of 44,000 people and I'll
:13:19. > :13:24.tell you that a certain percentage of them will have committed crimes.
:13:25. > :13:27.Don't connect it to the show. The warring couple who ended up in this
:13:28. > :13:31.tragedy after the show was aired, hours after it aired, I just wonder
:13:32. > :13:34.whether you sat yourself down and for a moment had a think about
:13:35. > :13:50.whether it was time to move on, to do something else? They were fine
:13:51. > :13:52.when the show ended. Go back to the assumption which I'm saying,
:13:53. > :13:55.respectfully, is totally incorrect. You didn't mention to the audience
:13:56. > :14:00.what caused the murder. It was four months later. The murder was born
:14:01. > :14:03.out of the dysfunctional relationship which you aired on
:14:04. > :14:12.national television. I'm asking whether that, having done that, and
:14:13. > :14:15.seen what happened to that couple... It had nothing to do with the show!
:14:16. > :14:20.Excuse me. I'm not responsible for the behaviour of 44,000 people who
:14:21. > :14:24.at some point were on the show. If later in life, they commit a crime,
:14:25. > :14:31.you will say that the reason is because for one hour, 20 minutes,
:14:32. > :14:34.they were on the show? Which, by the way, the murder had nothing to do
:14:35. > :14:38.with what they were arguing about on the show? You just told everybody
:14:39. > :14:51.that our show had something to do with that. I do ask questions. Let
:14:52. > :15:02.me talk about the course of American culture over 20 years of your
:15:03. > :15:07.programme. When it started, it caused a huge stir. It was doing
:15:08. > :15:11.something different. Now, every nation in the world has reality TV.
:15:12. > :15:15.It gives voices to people that you have said, were voiceless. It
:15:16. > :15:19.probably is not so much the case anymore. Do you think that the role
:15:20. > :15:23.your show played has served its purpose? That it does not have the
:15:24. > :15:28.shock value it used to have? It is not meant to have shock value. We in
:15:29. > :15:34.television get too impressed with ourselves like we are really shaping
:15:35. > :15:38.society. Let me tell you, human behaviour has not deteriorated
:15:39. > :15:45.because of television. I would argue that human behaviour has not
:15:46. > :15:48.deteriorated, period. There is nothing you see on any television
:15:49. > :15:51.show in England or America or anywhere in the world that is
:15:52. > :15:56.something that has not existed for thousands of years. The difference
:15:57. > :15:59.is, 3000 years ago, people would gather in the marketplace or the
:16:00. > :16:06.town square and they would chat with each other about who was doing what
:16:07. > :16:08.in the neighbourhood. The difference is, we now have technology.
:16:09. > :16:13.Technology has made the neighbourhood global. All of a
:16:14. > :16:16.sudden, with kids on Facebook, the Internet, their cellphones.
:16:17. > :16:21.Everybody is talking about what they do in their lives to the whole
:16:22. > :16:30.world. Do they need Jerry Springer any more? Do we need HARDtalk any
:16:31. > :16:36.more? I am just asking. Yes. We are social beings. We are fascinated by
:16:37. > :16:57.what other human beings are doing. It is not needed. It is television.
:16:58. > :17:00.It is television! I love the honesty with which you tell me that you
:17:01. > :17:04.would not watch this show and you think it is stupid. If I may, I will
:17:05. > :17:07.get a little bit personal and reflect on how you feel about a long
:17:08. > :17:10.and successful career doing this show when in so many ways, your
:17:11. > :17:14.early years pointed to something else. You were hired to work for
:17:15. > :17:17.Bobby Kennedy in 1968. You were a very committed, political lawyer who
:17:18. > :17:21.then turned to politics. You were a progressive mayor in Cincinnati. You
:17:22. > :17:29.believed in things. You are a passionate progressive. I still am.
:17:30. > :17:35.How do you feel about spending so long in this particular niche in the
:17:36. > :17:40.TV business? You are a great interviewer. The way you ask the
:17:41. > :17:44.questions, you make it seem like this is something I should feel bad
:17:45. > :17:47.about. I am still passionate about politics as I ever have. People in
:17:48. > :17:53.Ohio know that I do political speeches, organising campaigns. I am
:17:54. > :18:03.politically active, I am not running for office. I still do want to run
:18:04. > :18:06.the world but it is not how I make my living. I believe in politics
:18:07. > :18:17.like I believe in religion. I take it very seriously. I do not want it
:18:18. > :18:22.tainted by the need to make a living. I believe that when
:18:23. > :18:25.politicians have to make a living, being re`elected, that you build
:18:26. > :18:29.into an incentive for intellectual dishonesty. If I know that the only
:18:30. > :18:32.way I can put food on the table is by winning the election, there is a
:18:33. > :18:36.real incentive for me to say whatever the public wants to hear,
:18:37. > :18:39.whether it is what I believe or not. I decided early on that my politics
:18:40. > :18:46.would always be pure. But I would never stop being a liberal. Never
:18:47. > :18:49.stop being progressive. I always decided I would not make a living at
:18:50. > :18:53.politics, my job is being an entertainer, my passion is political
:18:54. > :18:56.and I am just as active. I worked tirelessly for Barack Obama,
:18:57. > :19:04.campaigning all around the country for him. Contributing a ton money
:19:05. > :19:07.for him and I will do the same for Hillary Clinton, bless her. What I
:19:08. > :19:14.find fascinating, it is a cliche, but the journey of your life,
:19:15. > :19:17.because it is incredible. People will not know that your parents
:19:18. > :19:24.escaped from Nazi Europe and your grandparents did not and were killed
:19:25. > :19:27.in the camps. I know that you were very close to your parents, in a
:19:28. > :19:37.sense, a lot of your life has been reflecting on what they went
:19:38. > :19:40.through. Again, I come back to this point, you have been a huge success.
:19:41. > :19:44.But were there not other things that you really wanted to do in your
:19:45. > :19:53.public life that meant at some point, you might want to leave the
:19:54. > :19:56.TV business? No. I will tell you why. I will say it again. I am very
:19:57. > :20:02.active politically. Understood. I have not given up on that at all, I
:20:03. > :20:06.just do not run for office. I am 70 now, what's the point? I do not run
:20:07. > :20:15.for office, because that is not how I want to make a living. Politics is
:20:16. > :20:19.my religion. I mean, I'm Jewish. It is like a religion to me. I really
:20:20. > :20:22.believe in liberal causes. That is really important to me. I do not
:20:23. > :20:30.compromise on that. I make my living... How I make money? I am an
:20:31. > :20:35.entertainer. Why, in a free enterprise system, should I
:20:36. > :20:43.apologise for being an entertainer? My views, someone should challenge
:20:44. > :20:49.me on my political views. Yes, let's talk politics. You have always been
:20:50. > :20:55.very open about... Maybe you are more left than most democratic
:20:56. > :21:03.views. You are very progressive. You have just seen Barack Obama in power
:21:04. > :21:05.for a term and a half. There are many liberals in America who are
:21:06. > :21:12.disappointed with what Obama has actually delivered. Are you one of
:21:13. > :21:16.them? No. Would I like him to be successful in every single thing he
:21:17. > :21:20.is in favour of that I am in favour of? Of course. When you are
:21:21. > :21:25.President, you are not a dictator and you do not get everything you
:21:26. > :21:31.want, or everything I want. What I am happy about are the big issues,
:21:32. > :21:34.he has been a great president. He saved the financial system, he saved
:21:35. > :21:39.the auto industry, he saved the economy. He got us almost out of
:21:40. > :21:42.Iraq, out of Afghanistan and now, for the first time, embarrassingly,
:21:43. > :21:56.the Americans, we were the last to come to the table on health
:21:57. > :21:59.insurance. We got off to a sloppy start but a couple of years from
:22:00. > :22:02.now, all Americans will have health insurance. God bless him for that!
:22:03. > :22:05.History will look back on these achievements and say, wow, great!
:22:06. > :22:12.The President is 100%, so I am happy. Coming back to this point of
:22:13. > :22:21.changing social attitudes, do you think that Americans are still
:22:22. > :22:24.deeply conservative? No. We all give conservative speeches but if you
:22:25. > :22:29.look and how people live, liberals always win in the end. I will say it
:22:30. > :22:35.again: Liberals always win in the end! In the beginning, conservatives
:22:36. > :22:38.will fight. They fought against Social Security, now no American
:22:39. > :22:43.would even think of going without Social Security. They fought against
:22:44. > :22:47.civil rights, now we have an African`American president. They
:22:48. > :22:53.fought against women's rights and now, we may have a woman president.
:22:54. > :23:01.Women have much more equality in America, compared with 30 years ago.
:23:02. > :23:05.Conservatives fought against gay marriage and now, as you said, over
:23:06. > :23:07.50% of the country is accepting gay marriage. Liberalism ultimately will
:23:08. > :23:14.win but there will be battles along the way. If you had your time over
:23:15. > :23:17.again, would you choose to have the political career that you tried to
:23:18. > :23:27.have that, in the end, did not go national? Would you still take the
:23:28. > :23:30.deal that you actually have? If God comes to me and says, Gerald, my
:23:31. > :23:34.full name, I will give you?you can have another life and you can sign
:23:35. > :23:43.for the exact life you've had or take your chances on another one.
:23:44. > :23:49.Where do I sign? I am the luckiest person in the world. I have no right
:23:50. > :23:56.to complain about everything. I have a privileged, lucky life. I say
:23:57. > :24:01.luck, I did not choose to be born. I did not choose to whom I be born
:24:02. > :24:12.with what health, brain, country. I was born in England, by the way. All
:24:13. > :24:16.of this is a gift. Life is a gift. Lots of people work hard, I do not
:24:17. > :24:18.know why I got lucky. Would I sign on, hell yeah! A great way to end.
:24:19. > :24:45.Thank you very much. Unfortunately, northern areas were
:24:46. > :24:56.rather cloudy again on Sunday with outbreaks of rain. To the south, a
:24:57. > :24:57.good deal of sunshine around. Through the course of