:00:09. > :00:20.concentrating on the features of these two people. Welcome to
:00:21. > :00:23.HARDtalk. I'm Zainab Badawi. At the zenith of his career, he was
:00:24. > :00:26.described as the third most powerful figure in Cuba after the Castro
:00:27. > :00:34.brothers. Ricardo Alarcon is a veteran on the political and
:00:35. > :00:37.diplomatic scene. He's a former Foreign Minister and long-time
:00:38. > :00:40.ambassador for Cuba to the United Nations. He still wields a great
:00:41. > :00:43.deal of influence and now spends most of his time campaigning for the
:00:44. > :00:50.release of three Cubans jailed in the US for spying. Isn't it time the
:00:51. > :01:17.US and Cuba buried the hatchet and normalised relations? What is Cuba
:01:18. > :01:21.prepared to do to end a long stalemate with the US, which imposed
:01:22. > :01:27.an economic embargo and broke off diplomatic relations in the 1960s?
:01:28. > :01:32.We are prepared to sit down with them on an equal footing and talk
:01:33. > :01:38.about our differences. I think that it is the West that has to listen to
:01:39. > :01:45.the rest of the world, to the countries in the Western Hemisphere,
:01:46. > :01:50.and to its own public opinion. The last survey in Washington showed
:01:51. > :02:00.that the vast majority of Americans, especially and curiously
:02:01. > :02:07.enough, those living in Florida and those living in southern Florida...
:02:08. > :02:16.In other words, a big number of Cubans, 64% of the population in
:02:17. > :02:19.Dade County, Miami, are against the embargo against Cuba and are in
:02:20. > :02:25.favour of normalisation of relations. Barack Obama in 2009
:02:26. > :02:29.after he became president said that he wanted to turn the page with Cuba
:02:30. > :02:35.and wanted warmer ties with them. Do you see that happening?
:02:36. > :02:41.Unfortunately, that is one of his promises that have not been
:02:42. > :02:44.fulfilled. He shook hands with President Raul Castro at Nelson
:02:45. > :02:50.Mandela's funeral. Everybody saw that. They are polite, well educated
:02:51. > :02:57.human beings and they say hello to each other. That is the way it
:02:58. > :02:59.should be. Isn't it more than that? Would George Bush have ever done
:03:00. > :03:07.anything like that with Fidel Castro? It was an important symbol,
:03:08. > :03:13.wasn't it? President Obama has changed the style of authority. He
:03:14. > :03:22.is completely different from his predecessor. But if he had listened
:03:23. > :03:26.to the people of Miami by facilitating travel for
:03:27. > :03:32.Cuban-Americans to Cuba, still he continues to forbid that two
:03:33. > :03:37.American Americans. President Raul Castro has been quoted in December
:03:38. > :03:40.of last year that if we really want to move our bilateral relations
:03:41. > :03:44.forward, we will have to learn to respect our differences, talking
:03:45. > :03:49.about the US, if not, we are ready to take another 55 years in the same
:03:50. > :04:00.situation. Really? Isn't that just bluster? Well, it's a metaphor to
:04:01. > :04:06.reflect the feelings and strength of belief of the population. The fact
:04:07. > :04:17.is that the Cuban people have resisted for 54 years. Not just the
:04:18. > :04:26.first generation of the revolution but their children and their
:04:27. > :04:30.grandchildren. The main point is that that policy has long been
:04:31. > :04:36.defeated. It's a failed policy. That's the worst part of it. But you
:04:37. > :04:41.just said the Cuban population was behind that sentiment, but President
:04:42. > :04:44.Raul Castro said. Of course, it's difficult to gain public opinion in
:04:45. > :04:50.Cuba, but I can give you one example. I won't name him, but one
:04:51. > :04:56.retired state worker said that when he heard this, he is not ready for
:04:57. > :05:00.more of the same situation. He is 72 and would like to see light at the
:05:01. > :05:03.end of the tunnel before he dies. There must be many more like him who
:05:04. > :05:10.want to see normalised relations and the end to the embargo. My dear
:05:11. > :05:19.lady, I would love to live another 50 years even if it was under the
:05:20. > :05:23.American embargo, but I don't think such a long time will be necessary.
:05:24. > :05:29.It will be very difficult for the US to continue this social policy in
:05:30. > :05:31.complete isolation. They are the ones who are completely isolated in
:05:32. > :05:41.the Western Hemisphere regarding Cuba. Havana was the venue last
:05:42. > :05:48.January of a head of state conference attended by everybody in
:05:49. > :05:53.the Western Hemisphere. The community of Latin American and
:05:54. > :05:58.Caribbean states does not include the US or Canada. It is a Latin
:05:59. > :06:04.American and Caribbean group and it is presided over by Cuba. What
:06:05. > :06:08.isolation are they talking about? Why'd you think the US takes this
:06:09. > :06:15.position on Cuba? You have been to the US. I think that the main
:06:16. > :06:20.problem is that for the US, Cuba is not a big problem. It's a minor
:06:21. > :06:30.thing. It's a very little island close to their shores and the US can
:06:31. > :06:38.resist being condemned every year at the UN. So what? Do you think that
:06:39. > :06:43.there will be a normalisation in diplomatic relations between Cuba
:06:44. > :06:47.and the US? I do believe that. I don't think that a policy that is
:06:48. > :06:55.not rational and is not to the benefit of the world can last
:06:56. > :07:00.forever. How soon until we might see real change, do you think? May
:07:01. > :07:07.be... I cannot be sure because I don't know what will happen in the
:07:08. > :07:11.US in the next few years. Let's look at one big change that has happened
:07:12. > :07:18.in Cuba. Raul Castro succeeded his brother Fidel Castro as president in
:07:19. > :07:22.2008 and in 2010, said, I want to introduce economic reforms. I want
:07:23. > :07:30.to introduce some market principles to the command economy, state-run
:07:31. > :07:34.enterprises in Cuba. Does that mean that the Cuban government is now
:07:35. > :07:43.less antagonistic towards private business? Of course it's not
:07:44. > :07:51.antagonistic at all. As a matter of fact, the Cuban revolution created
:07:52. > :07:57.more private, small private entrepreneurs than any other regime
:07:58. > :08:03.in the history of Cuba. We created the agrarian reform law that created
:08:04. > :08:09.thousands of small farmers and gave them the titles to the property of
:08:10. > :08:14.their land. That is going back to the revolution after a two step in
:08:15. > :08:21.the late 1950s. We are not so antagonistic. But most people in
:08:22. > :08:23.Cuba before these reforms were employed by the state. You could be
:08:24. > :08:30.a hairdresser and be employed by the state. That's true. But now you have
:08:31. > :08:35.these changes that Raul Castro has brought in. For instance, you can
:08:36. > :08:40.now buy and sell property. You can lease land from the government and
:08:41. > :08:43.you can farm that. There have been these reforms. Is the Cuban
:08:44. > :08:52.socialist revolution going capitalist? No, but we are really
:08:53. > :09:00.finding out our socialism. We do not believe... What was perhaps one of
:09:01. > :09:09.the worst effects of the Cold War years... In those days, people on
:09:10. > :09:17.the left assumed that there was one socialism, a so-called real
:09:18. > :09:22.socialism, and that failed completely in Eastern Europe. The
:09:23. > :09:29.fact is that the real socialist society should come from within,
:09:30. > :09:35.from inside, from its own culture and traditions. In other words,
:09:36. > :09:40.there is no such thing as a socialist model to be followed by
:09:41. > :09:45.all. You have changed your model. That is the point. A report by the
:09:46. > :09:48.Centre for democracy says that the reforms that have taken place in
:09:49. > :09:55.Cuba highlight and acceptance that market forces can play a role in
:09:56. > :10:00.economic policy, so these reforms are broader and more permanent than
:10:01. > :10:07.the kind of changes you might have seen in the past. Do you accept
:10:08. > :10:11.that? Entirely. Therefore, I ask you again, is the Cuban socialist
:10:12. > :10:17.revolution adopting some capitalist principles? And if so, isn't that an
:10:18. > :10:24.admission that the system as it has been practised in Cuba is partly
:10:25. > :10:29.failed? It is recognition of certain realities. The world has changed.
:10:30. > :10:39.You have to adjust to a changing world on the one hand. It is a
:10:40. > :10:48.recognition also of some mistake, of some exaggeration of the hairdresser
:10:49. > :10:55.example that you put. As an example of an exaggeration of the role of
:10:56. > :11:01.the state. What mistakes? What mistakes did the revolution it
:11:02. > :11:04.really does make? Having a lot of activities that could be performed
:11:05. > :11:11.by individuals, by families, and that are not necessarily to be in
:11:12. > :11:21.the hands of the state. We believe that what socialism means is the
:11:22. > :11:27.state ownership or control over the main means of production. That's not
:11:28. > :11:32.a hairdresser. That's not a small plot of land. That's not a small
:11:33. > :11:39.trade business. The state will still be the key economic player in the
:11:40. > :11:49.human economy. But when you CB Communist Party member of... Said in
:11:50. > :11:52.2012, by 2017, 40 5% of Cuba's GDP will be from different forms of
:11:53. > :11:58.non-state production, that is, in private hands, that sounds like a
:11:59. > :12:02.big chunk. Nearly half of Cuba's GDP not controlled by the state? That's
:12:03. > :12:12.an erosion of state power in the economy. Control does not
:12:13. > :12:24.necessarily mean direct ownership and management. Control also
:12:25. > :12:29.prefers... We believe that society should be organised in such a way to
:12:30. > :12:37.guarantee so that everybody has free education, free healthcare. By the
:12:38. > :12:45.way, our system is not far at all from the British system in
:12:46. > :12:52.healthcare. What is that? Capitalist smack a socialist system? A
:12:53. > :12:56.republican system? But you cannot guarantee jobs for life in the
:12:57. > :13:01.public sector. You have issues. You say you want to give people what
:13:02. > :13:06.they want. Let me give you one example. Look at consumer goods. The
:13:07. > :13:09.authorities say that they will relax some of their restrictions on people
:13:10. > :13:15.buying things. You can buy a basic, simple car in Cuba if you have
:13:16. > :13:22.$260,000. And the average salary is $20 per month. You are not giving
:13:23. > :13:28.the people what they want. Maria Rosas, a 42-year-old office worker
:13:29. > :13:32.in Cuba, makes $12 per month. She says she sees things like a
:13:33. > :13:37.blender, a sandwich maker or a steam iron that she would like to have,
:13:38. > :13:41.but I cannot afford to. How does that make you feel? Cubans say they
:13:42. > :13:55.want to buy basic household goods but they cannot afford them. People
:13:56. > :14:00.in our country... All people in all countries have difficulties finding
:14:01. > :14:05.a job. But not to that extent. Even in developing nations in Africa,
:14:06. > :14:10.they own cellphone. I hope you don't go pursue that woman, now... But she
:14:11. > :14:16.can go to the best hospital, she can have the best education. And she can
:14:17. > :14:27.get that for her children as well without paying a cent. You said, in
:14:28. > :14:32.the UK you have a health system, comedy have a similar thing in Cuba.
:14:33. > :14:37.In the UK, you can go and buy something like a steam iron, as well
:14:38. > :14:41.as having a healthcare. Some people are more equal than others. We have
:14:42. > :14:47.more access to those goods than others. Who has access to those
:14:48. > :14:53.goods, who is buying them? Obviously there is inequality. That is a
:14:54. > :15:03.consequence of the market. Who is buying those goods, a sandwich maker
:15:04. > :15:09.that may cost $20 in other countries, may cost three times
:15:10. > :15:16.elsewhere. Basic consumer goods are released three times as much as they
:15:17. > :15:23.are online in most countries. Who can afford to buy these things if
:15:24. > :15:36.the basic salary is $20 a month? There are balances in our economy
:15:37. > :15:44.that are precisely... The reforms are aimed, among other things, to
:15:45. > :15:51.eliminate them, to make those imbalances disappear. 2012, 40 7000
:15:52. > :16:08.Cubans left Cuba permanently, we think. A lot of people. Remember
:16:09. > :16:13.that those are people who get an American Visa and the basis for
:16:14. > :16:19.getting a US Visa is to have a relative in the US. But they are
:16:20. > :16:23.leaving, in their thousands. More than they did since 1994. More
:16:24. > :16:32.people are leaving Cuba than ever before. I am not prepared to
:16:33. > :16:38.disclose publicly, the number of those who are doing the reverse
:16:39. > :16:43.travel. Those Cubans who are going back to Cuba from the US. As it
:16:44. > :16:50.happened with some Latin American countries. If that really so? A
:16:51. > :16:57.Republican senator of Cuban parent said, how come I never hear about
:16:58. > :17:04.boatloads of refugees going to Cuba? He does not want to hear. Why can't
:17:05. > :17:14.you disclose these numbers? He is lying. We should be talking about
:17:15. > :17:19.that person. You said there are a lot going back. Why can't you
:17:20. > :17:27.disclose the number? You only need to go to the airport in Miami, which
:17:28. > :17:37.is the airport that has more flights to Cuba. Daily flights. Only for
:17:38. > :17:45.Cubans, and some of them, after their land in the country, basically
:17:46. > :17:57.want to remain. We are not going to see the names and their figures,
:17:58. > :18:01.because they have measures against those people to punish them. They
:18:02. > :18:06.have families in Miami. You said, we have high literacy rate in Cuba, I
:18:07. > :18:10.will not quit again, but he makes the point, what is the point of the
:18:11. > :18:16.literacy rate when you do not have access to the Internet? Access to
:18:17. > :18:22.the Internet in Cuba is the worst in the world. Gino any other country
:18:23. > :18:29.that US companies are not permitted to operate in? Do you know any other
:18:30. > :18:32.country... What does that have to do with your media within the country?
:18:33. > :18:37.Newspapers, the state has a monopoly. You mentioned the
:18:38. > :18:42.Internet. Every country in Latin America gets access to the Internet
:18:43. > :18:49.through a cable that moves around the island of Cuba, except Cuba.
:18:50. > :18:56.Cuba cannot use it because it is under US control. Then what do they
:18:57. > :19:02.save? What about freedom of expression, you have human rights
:19:03. > :19:06.organisations, a UN body on human rights saying that freedom of
:19:07. > :19:13.expression is lacking. There are other trees the tensions still. --
:19:14. > :19:19.arbitrary. Some journalists are in jail for months at a time without
:19:20. > :19:33.trial. Is their freedom in the media in Cuba? There is not. It is not the
:19:34. > :19:36.best media. Cubans have certain possibilities of expression that
:19:37. > :19:44.they would not have around the world. Nations were they took about
:19:45. > :19:53.reforms, every one of them, all of them, have been discussed with the
:19:54. > :20:01.people. The people have the opportunity to express themselves
:20:02. > :20:06.and to modify proposals. For 20 years I was president of the
:20:07. > :20:15.National Assembly. I never voted on a law without having it discussed
:20:16. > :20:21.with everybody. That does not exist in other societies. I want to ask
:20:22. > :20:29.you about your campaign for Cubans who are held in US prisons.
:20:30. > :20:34.Americans say they have been spying. Two of been released. That is a big
:20:35. > :20:44.obstacle to better relations between Cuba and the US. E.g. That you have
:20:45. > :20:46.-- incubate you have a US contractor who was trying to bring Internet
:20:47. > :20:55.communications to the Jewish committee in Cuba. The US committee
:20:56. > :21:02.had the right to say it, they deny that allegation. Would you swap the
:21:03. > :21:12.remaining three Cubans being held in US prisons for spying for him? Happy
:21:13. > :21:20.that they should be free. He should also have the opportunity to see his
:21:21. > :21:31.family. We have said, time and again, the Foreign Ministry, our
:21:32. > :21:41.representatives, have said time and again that Cuba is prepared to sit
:21:42. > :21:47.down with the US to solve the issue, to find a humanitarian
:21:48. > :21:58.solution to that. But, at the same time, we also have two address
:21:59. > :22:03.legitimate Unitarian concerns related to the fibres are now three,
:22:04. > :22:08.and their families. They have been separated for a long time. Just
:22:09. > :22:16.quickly on that, will you see movement on that? I hope so. They
:22:17. > :22:24.think that the US is getting the message. President Raul Castro says
:22:25. > :22:30.he will not be running again in 2018 as president. His older brother has
:22:31. > :22:36.already gone off the scene. You, in your mid- 70s, you were removed from
:22:37. > :22:41.the commerce party's powerful Central committee. Do you think that
:22:42. > :22:47.it is time to make way for a new generation of leaders, sooner,
:22:48. > :23:00.rather than later? Of course. I agree. They behave following that
:23:01. > :23:09.principle. I am retired. Imagine my success or. He is not a young boy,
:23:10. > :23:14.but he is much younger than me. I think that that is the way it should
:23:15. > :23:23.be. Should the president stepped down? At think that if it were up to
:23:24. > :23:31.him, he would have done that. I think he will continue performing
:23:32. > :23:36.his duties as president until the term of his mandate. Ricardo
:23:37. > :23:39.Alarcon, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. It was a pleasure, it was
:23:40. > :24:01.not that hard. It was a fairly glorious, springlike
:24:02. > :24:04.weekend for some parts of the UK.