:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk. It is the biggest crisis confronting western
:00:19. > :00:23.Europe in 20 years. Ukraine could be days away from losing a key part of
:00:24. > :00:26.its territory. Russia stands on one side and the United States and the
:00:27. > :00:33.European Union on the other. A key player on that side, Poland. Back
:00:34. > :00:41.Radoslaw Sikorski warns the Russian President that if Russia does not
:00:42. > :00:47.de-escalate, the EU will impose sanctions. Moscow needs our money,
:00:48. > :00:48.he says. Why does Radoslaw Sikorski believed things would be different
:00:49. > :01:12.this time? Radoslaw Sikorski, welcome to
:01:13. > :01:16.HARDtalk. If Crimea vote next Sunday to secede from Ukraine, and become
:01:17. > :01:20.part of Russia, should the wheel of the people there be recognised by
:01:21. > :01:26.the outside world? I do not believe the conditions exist for an honest
:01:27. > :01:34.and fair vote. From what I know, the electoral registers are in Kiev, .
:01:35. > :01:41.The security situation is so bad in the Crimea right now that Poland has
:01:42. > :01:46.had to evacuate its Gillette. The law and order situation is very bad.
:01:47. > :01:52.And also, there's proposed referendum is patiently illegal
:01:53. > :01:55.under the Ukrainian constitution. They are being offered a choice. It
:01:56. > :02:03.is not the case of being told, you either vote for succession or we
:02:04. > :02:07.abandon you. We are being told by the Russians supporters, the ethnic
:02:08. > :02:15.Russians in Crimea, you can vote for that all you can vote for greater
:02:16. > :02:19.autonomy inside Ukraine. If Crimea and the majority of the people there
:02:20. > :02:25.want greater autonomy within Ukraine, I am convinced that is
:02:26. > :02:29.achievable without this intervention by Russian troops. On the basis of
:02:30. > :02:35.what you know about the situation, why do you say it is not legitimate?
:02:36. > :02:41.You could argue that what has happened is that the Crimean
:02:42. > :02:44.parliament, already autonomous inside Ukraine, has voted to hold
:02:45. > :02:49.this referendum, having already said it wants to join the Russian
:02:50. > :02:56.Federation. We had a situation in Kiev with its parliament voting to
:02:57. > :03:00.get rid of President Yanukovych. Parliament Parliament making votes,
:03:01. > :03:04.making decisions. The parliament having been elected by their people.
:03:05. > :03:12.You are having a referendum on Scotland. It is done by agreement,
:03:13. > :03:17.not by unilateral action. So it is the lack of agreement with Kiev is
:03:18. > :03:20.the only issue he? The lack of the respect of the Ukrainian
:03:21. > :03:27.constitution and under duress of foreign troops. Be believed then
:03:28. > :03:34.that this situation can be resolved before the referendum takes place?
:03:35. > :03:40.Hopefully. If Russia were to engage in dialogue with Ukraine and the
:03:41. > :03:48.international community, I believe that the rights of all the Ukrainian
:03:49. > :03:50.citizens can be respected. Remember, not a single Russia and all Russian
:03:51. > :03:57.speaker has so far been harmed. There is no pretext even for this
:03:58. > :04:03.military intervention. You see it as an military intervention,
:04:04. > :04:11.military intervention. You see it as say they are not Russian troops on
:04:12. > :04:16.the ground. We know which units they come from. So you know who these
:04:17. > :04:22.people are? Near a baying orders from the Russian government. Yes I
:04:23. > :04:27.do. On this question of legitimacy, you reached a deal last month with
:04:28. > :04:30.an Yanukovych. You clearly thought then, he was a legitimate president
:04:31. > :04:36.and you are prepared to support the deal. You said that whatever his
:04:37. > :04:40.flaws, this was an improvement that could involve going back to the
:04:41. > :04:45.previous constitution, restricting the powers of the President. And
:04:46. > :04:49.having a schedule for election, I'm kind of inclusive government. Russia
:04:50. > :04:58.says, actually, let's go back to that deal. Why not? Well, Russia did
:04:59. > :04:59.not sign the agreement. The agreement remember was between
:05:00. > :05:07.President Yanukovych and the opposition. We, the foreign
:05:08. > :05:11.ministers of Poland, Germany and France were merely witnesses. A bit
:05:12. > :05:18.more than that. You are quoted saying, if you do not support this,
:05:19. > :05:21.you will have martial law. That was my conversation with part of the
:05:22. > :05:29.opposition to persuade them of the seriousness. It sounded like a bit
:05:30. > :05:32.more than persuasion. A voted in favour of the agreement. IM not
:05:33. > :05:39.surprise if they thought they would be dead. Use this was a good deal.
:05:40. > :05:47.You thought it was a good deal. In that moment, yes. The Russian
:05:48. > :05:55.representative initial attacks. -- initialled the text. Let's remember
:05:56. > :06:06.what is in the agreement. One point of the agreement was that within 48
:06:07. > :06:09.hours, the world, more democratic constitution would be voted through
:06:10. > :06:16.in Parliament and signed by President Yanukovych. He skipped
:06:17. > :06:22.town and then surreptitiously, left the country. He did not sign the
:06:23. > :06:26.Constitution. There is nothing to stop the new powers would miss.
:06:27. > :06:33.President Yanukovych broke the agreement. Everything else stemmed
:06:34. > :06:39.from that. I believe that we should honour the spirit of the agreement.
:06:40. > :06:47.Inclusive government, new constitution, removing weapons from
:06:48. > :06:53.the streets. That can be achieved. But that does not mean that might
:06:54. > :06:57.need an military invasion of Crimea. Another thing that was
:06:58. > :07:02.openly discussed between President Yanukovych, the opposition and the
:07:03. > :07:09.foreign ministers, including the representative of President Putin.
:07:10. > :07:16.That the Prime Minister of this inclusive of and would be Arseniy
:07:17. > :07:20.Yatsenyuk who is the Prime Minister. We are astonished now that Russia is
:07:21. > :07:27.refusing to talk to a Prime Minister that was envisaged any agreement.
:07:28. > :07:34.And is denouncing the Ukrainian government. So just to be clear, as
:07:35. > :07:37.far as you are concerned, if Russia is prepared to speak to the Prime
:07:38. > :07:46.Minister, you would be prepared to throw your weight behind this deal
:07:47. > :07:50.and say to the opposition... I am not being flippant about it but to
:07:51. > :07:56.make the point, you would be prepared to use your influence to
:07:57. > :08:00.say, let's restore this deal. Let's restore legality. That have to
:08:01. > :08:03.include the removal of foreign troops from sovereign territory. You
:08:04. > :08:11.mention this accusation against fascist in the government. This is
:08:12. > :08:15.what Vladimir Putin said. They are on a rampage in part of Ukraine
:08:16. > :08:20.including care. He talked of an acting Governor being tortured. He
:08:21. > :08:27.talked in the offices of Viktor Yanukovych's party. Another person
:08:28. > :08:38.was earned alive, is it democracy, he asked himself. Are you at all
:08:39. > :08:42.worried. Maidan was a popular movement. It started with students
:08:43. > :08:49.protesting the non- signing of the association agreement. It then grew
:08:50. > :08:53.to include demonstrations of up to a million people. Of course, when you
:08:54. > :09:04.have a million people, some of them are people who probably do not watch
:09:05. > :09:07.the BBC or don't agree with it. The main goal of the Maidan is about
:09:08. > :09:18.wanting their country to be rid of corruption, to be better run and to
:09:19. > :09:28.be more pro- European. The iMac some are quite into string. The new chair
:09:29. > :09:38.of the National Security Council, one of his deputies... He is a
:09:39. > :09:46.member of Parliament. I met him. He did not strike me as an extremist.
:09:47. > :09:49.What about one of his deputies? That right sector has been accused of
:09:50. > :09:55.having links to security services of two countries. And was seen meeting
:09:56. > :10:01.President Yanukovych on the day of the massacre. So, yes, he has a lot
:10:02. > :10:08.to explain. On that basis then, what did you make of the accusation of
:10:09. > :10:11.President Putin? Some of these people involved in the overthrow of
:10:12. > :10:17.President Yanukovych had been as he put it, trained in foreign bases in
:10:18. > :10:30.Poland and Lithuania. That is not true. Have you investigate it is Mac
:10:31. > :10:34.it is not true. We do not do that. It could not have happened in Poland
:10:35. > :10:38.and that is the disturbing part of what President Putin says. He also
:10:39. > :10:43.says that these are not his troops in the Crimea when we know they are.
:10:44. > :10:47.The director of the Polish Institute of International affairs told the
:10:48. > :10:50.BBC last week that the relationship with Ukrainian activist was
:10:51. > :10:56.developed over years and paid. It is true that there are NGOs that talk
:10:57. > :11:11.to one another but that is legitimate authority. Media in
:11:12. > :11:15.Ukraine have been under pressure for some time, journalists have been
:11:16. > :11:21.under pressure. We believe in media freedom. Are you worried for
:11:22. > :11:24.Ukraine's future, leaving aside some of the people we have been talking
:11:25. > :11:30.about, if some familiar faces just returned to power. The pre- Viktor
:11:31. > :11:34.Yanukovych politicians. I agree with you that the people of Ukraine
:11:35. > :11:38.deserve to have politicians who can prove the sources of their worth.
:11:39. > :11:46.Because part of the Maidan is a protest against such a blatant
:11:47. > :11:52.stealing of assets. And politicians declaring on the one hand to be poor
:11:53. > :11:57.as a church mouse and on the other hand, getting into their private
:11:58. > :12:02.jets and flying to countries of the EU to draw on the assets. Is
:12:03. > :12:08.interesting you talk about the EU and money because that is a critical
:12:09. > :12:11.point as well. You have talked, last month about part of the movement in
:12:12. > :12:16.Maidan being about laptop Christie and your concern about the Orange
:12:17. > :12:23.Revolution and the politicians missing the opportunity to get
:12:24. > :12:29.Ukraine where it should be now. Just after Julia Tymoshenko was released,
:12:30. > :12:32.and journalists tweeted that she was happy for her family and worried for
:12:33. > :12:41.her country that she will return to politics. She helped cause the
:12:42. > :12:45.crisis. Do you agree? I try not to interfere in the personal politics
:12:46. > :12:57.of another country. There is a presidential race on and Tymoshenko
:12:58. > :13:08.may be a candidate. You did retweet that comment. You do agree with Anne
:13:09. > :13:16.Applebaum, that she helped cause the crisis? I hope an honest person wins
:13:17. > :13:27.the election. Why did you read Twitter the message? -- retweet. I
:13:28. > :13:32.retweet things that I think people will find informative. Yulia
:13:33. > :13:41.Tymoshenko Mr many chances to perform the Ukraine. -- missed. She
:13:42. > :13:50.missed opportunities. That's important. The issue now on Ukraine
:13:51. > :13:54.is political instability. The line behind that is the state of the
:13:55. > :13:58.economy. The finance minister says for example that the country needs
:13:59. > :14:05.something like $35 billion worth of loans and credits to avoid default.
:14:06. > :14:08.We know that Russia has provided significant discounts on gas imports
:14:09. > :14:16.as part of a deal over the Black Sea. Discounts from an artificial --
:14:17. > :14:18.artificially inflated price. But many Ukrainians believe what they
:14:19. > :14:22.have been offered from the outside, led by the European Union, the IMF
:14:23. > :14:29.and so on, is not that attractive, is it? Not as much money as the
:14:30. > :14:33.government says its needs, not $35 billion worth of loans and aid, and
:14:34. > :14:40.with strings attached. Merret in Poland we have experienced of this
:14:41. > :14:46.sort of situation. -- in Poland. In 1989 when we took over power, Poland
:14:47. > :14:50.was literally bankrupt. It had not been servicing its debt and we had
:14:51. > :14:56.inflation of 800%. Economically speaking, we were in worse shape
:14:57. > :15:03.than Ukraine today. We didn't get anything. We got $1 billion standby
:15:04. > :15:09.agreement to stabilise our currency, on which we didn't draw. Because if
:15:10. > :15:19.you compared the internal savings of your public sector, your corporate
:15:20. > :15:22.and private is, -- private sectors, it is bigger than any conceivable
:15:23. > :15:27.help from the outside. Help from the outside can be helped. The main
:15:28. > :15:36.thing you do is to start sensibly using your own country's resources.
:15:37. > :15:44.That the corruption, the amount of money being taken out? And the
:15:45. > :15:50.finances. 7% of Ukraine's budget is a subsidy. Ukrainian households only
:15:51. > :15:56.cover 20% of the cost of gas and the cost of gas that Ukraine imports is
:15:57. > :16:04.higher for Ukraine than four Poland or Germany. Which is unfair. The
:16:05. > :16:07.trouble is, what the boss of the European bank for Reconstruction and
:16:08. > :16:12.development told me on Sunday is that one of the conditions would be
:16:13. > :16:16.that people will have to end the gas subsidies. He says it is difficult
:16:17. > :16:22.politics but there isn't much of an option. That it is on the brink of
:16:23. > :16:26.bankruptcy. Ukraine has already divided its currency, which was one
:16:27. > :16:30.of the conditions, and they will have to pay more for gas because no
:16:31. > :16:40.country can sustain that. A painful message to Ukrainians. Ukrainians I
:16:41. > :16:44.spoke to in Maidan knew this. They say they want a better country and
:16:45. > :16:48.they know things will get worse before they get better, just as they
:16:49. > :16:52.were for us. It's an almost generational contract. This
:16:53. > :16:58.generation has to take a little bit of short-term pain, so that 5-10
:16:59. > :17:03.years down the road Ukraine can be a normal and successful European
:17:04. > :17:07.country. Your Prime Minister said the only way to stop Russia is from
:17:08. > :17:10.per -- firm pressure and obstinacy on the part of Europe. You think the
:17:11. > :17:17.response of EU leaders has demonstrated that? Both the EU and
:17:18. > :17:22.the United States, and your Prime Minister just spoke about this in
:17:23. > :17:28.the House of Commons, yes... David Cameron? We need time to co-ordinate
:17:29. > :17:31.opposition. We are not a nation state with the union of command that
:17:32. > :17:37.you have in the US, that alone Russia. But we are the largest
:17:38. > :17:41.economy on earth and we have forced countries like South Africa and Iran
:17:42. > :17:46.to change course and we should communicate very clearly that there
:17:47. > :17:54.will be costs for occupying Crimea and even bigger costs for invading
:17:55. > :17:59.mainland Ukraine. The difficulty is that at is the message of the
:18:00. > :18:02.rhetoric of what people saw after the emergency summit of EU leaders,
:18:03. > :18:10.that went the yonder the schedule time, -- went beyond the scheduled
:18:11. > :18:19.time, the only concrete thing was a halt to negotiations on visa free
:18:20. > :18:23.travel. And asset freezes. Some limited asset freezes. Tomorrow, the
:18:24. > :18:28.group in London needs to specify what the sanctions will be. The
:18:29. > :18:35.European Council said that they will kick in if there isn't any
:18:36. > :18:39.de-escalation in a matter of days. We will have this fake referendum on
:18:40. > :18:45.Sunday. On Monday, the Foreign Affairs Council is meeting, which is
:18:46. > :18:52.in part to pass sanctions. You used the phrase ten days. Argue
:18:53. > :18:56.saying... That is Poland's position but do you think the EU will agree
:18:57. > :19:00.with that? If Russia doesn't pull back, will we see concrete measures?
:19:01. > :19:06.On Sunday, you said Moscow needs our money. The evidence is there. If
:19:07. > :19:13.Europe wanted to, it could make Moscow squeal economically. It is an
:19:14. > :19:20.hour of truth. Are we going to allow borders in Europe to be changed by
:19:21. > :19:27.force? Are we again going to allow one leader of Europe to send his
:19:28. > :19:34.troops to a neighbouring country on the pretext of ethnic grievances? We
:19:35. > :19:39.know the precedence and we know how dangerous they are. Nobody wants
:19:40. > :19:44.sanctions. Poland has a lot of trade with Russia. We should not do this
:19:45. > :19:51.enthusiastically. So does Britain. We had this document of an official
:19:52. > :19:55.saying, we don't want sanctions. But the risk of allowing Russia to go
:19:56. > :20:02.further and invade Ukraine properly is even bigger. The cost would be
:20:03. > :20:06.bigger as well. You met your British opposite. Have you told him that is
:20:07. > :20:11.not an acceptable approach? Britain and Poland are collaborating
:20:12. > :20:13.closely. You agree you won't put the interest of Britain's financial
:20:14. > :20:19.centre at offputting sanctions on Russia? All EU countries should make
:20:20. > :20:24.sure that the laws on money-laundering, on provenance of
:20:25. > :20:28.capital -- are applied and that we don't do, to the people of Russia,
:20:29. > :20:32.what was done to the people of Ukraine. But a small group of people
:20:33. > :20:39.was able to steal the assets of the country. Do you think Russia will
:20:40. > :20:43.send troops to the mainland of Ukraine, beyond the borders with
:20:44. > :20:46.Crimea? I hope not and I strongly urge Russia authorities not to do
:20:47. > :20:50.that but I know the troops are there, just across the border,
:20:51. > :20:58.available to do it. You called the NATO meeting under Article four.
:20:59. > :21:04.Ukraine is not a member of NATO. But we are and we are -- and when the
:21:05. > :21:08.territory of a neighbouring country is invaded, it is an important
:21:09. > :21:15.province under threat of being annexed, we feel very keenly that it
:21:16. > :21:18.affects our security. Do you share the view of the president of Luke
:21:19. > :21:26.Delaney, who warned that it will be, as she put it, first Ukraine,
:21:27. > :21:32.Moldova would be next and finally it could reach Poland. -- Lithuania. We
:21:33. > :21:40.should do everything for that logic to be pre-empted. Georgia, in 2008,
:21:41. > :21:45.she was somewhat similar. We could have said, that is a 1-off. The
:21:46. > :21:51.Georgian government allowed itself to be provoked. He won't let Ukraine
:21:52. > :22:01.down in the same way? Ukraine has been unbelievably restrained. And on
:22:02. > :22:05.provocative. -- on provocative. Georgia should not become a pattern.
:22:06. > :22:09.You said the people of Poland and the people of EU paid a price in the
:22:10. > :22:13.20th century for a war that started on the pretext of protecting
:22:14. > :22:16.national minorities. I hope we have learned lessons. Is it your
:22:17. > :22:24.contention that Vladimir Putin was Matt Russia is acting like Hitler's
:22:25. > :22:32.Germany? Russia gave a security guarantees in April, 1939, that were
:22:33. > :22:38.not acted upon. -- Germany gave security guarantees. Those are very
:22:39. > :22:44.dangerous precedence is. You say Europe needs to take it that
:22:45. > :22:49.seriously? I think we have agreed, after World War II and after the
:22:50. > :22:52.Cold War, that issues to do with minorities, with ethnic rights, are
:22:53. > :23:00.to be resolved through the Council of Europe, and, just like you did,
:23:01. > :23:05.through overcoming borders rather than brutally changing them. Is
:23:06. > :23:10.there a peaceful way out of this conflict? Kennett and without a shot
:23:11. > :23:17.fired? It can but only one man can decide to do that. -- can it end.
:23:18. > :23:25.Are you setting that too high, because you are asking him to be the
:23:26. > :23:27.eight -- to humiliate himself? We are all asking President Putin to
:23:28. > :23:31.revert to respecting international law. Radoslaw Sikorski, thank you
:23:32. > :23:51.very much for joining us on HARDtalk.
:23:52. > :24:01.It had to happen eventually, after the wettest winter on record. One at
:24:02. > :24:02.Atlantic low after the other. Finally, an