:00:00. > :00:00.they will their children are too heavy. `` they or their children.
:00:07. > :00:12.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. We live in the internet age
:00:13. > :00:19.but perhaps most of us haven't realised just how radically it will
:00:20. > :00:22.change our lives. Today's guest is part of the crypto`anarchist
:00:23. > :00:24.movement which, wants to use the so`called dark web ` anonymous,
:00:25. > :00:32.borderless, and lawless` to empower individuals and undermine big
:00:33. > :00:35.government. Cody Wilson's symbolic first move was to make a gun using
:00:36. > :00:39.open source software and a 3D printer. Is this really where we
:00:40. > :01:12.want the internet to take us? Cody Wilson, welcome to HARDtalk. I
:01:13. > :01:16.have seen you described as a crypto`anarchist. Is that a
:01:17. > :01:22.description you would place on yourself? Enthusiastically. Yet what
:01:23. > :01:28.does it mean? We invoke an essay by Timothy May. We read the
:01:29. > :01:32.crypto`anarchist manifesto. It comes from a cyberpunk tradition. The idea
:01:33. > :01:33.was that public encryption, these new network technologies and
:01:34. > :01:39.peer`to`peer technologies, specifically, would shut out
:01:40. > :01:44.government intervention. Why the gun? Why did you make such a point
:01:45. > :01:47.of garnering publicity by showing how to download a design for a gun
:01:48. > :02:00.and make it home`made with the use of a 3D printer? In the beginning,
:02:01. > :02:03.we had the ambition for garnering this kind of worldwide attention.
:02:04. > :02:08.But we didn't know... It was a process... It is difficult to
:02:09. > :02:16.describe. There was a kind of logic that we started accessing once we
:02:17. > :02:19.got involved. We realised... I don't know. There was a strategy we could
:02:20. > :02:27.execute where to get the government to step into the situation would be
:02:28. > :02:32.the way that we could succeed. It is difficult to understand. So it is a
:02:33. > :02:35.provocation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was intended as a provocation but it
:02:36. > :02:40.had grander elements that are hard to succinctly describe. It is not so
:02:41. > :02:44.difficult for me to look back and wonder how irresponsible you could
:02:45. > :02:48.be. Everyone, you proclaimed, should have access to a gun. I want the
:02:49. > :02:53.widest distribution possible of implements of violence. Yeah, yeah.
:02:54. > :03:00.I intentionally use language like that. Let's stick with that. What is
:03:01. > :03:04.the public good of wanting the widest distribution possible
:03:05. > :03:09.implements of violence? I do not define it in terms of the public
:03:10. > :03:13.good. Our project is questioning this idea of a consensual claim of a
:03:14. > :03:15.universal public good, that there is a certain kind of moralistic
:03:16. > :03:27.hegemony of human`rights pacifism, which is used to reinforce a certain
:03:28. > :03:30.structure of domination. Right? But also, because this is an American
:03:31. > :03:37.project, we began appealing to American liberal nostalgia. I was
:03:38. > :03:40.using some of these great insurrectionists in American
:03:41. > :03:47.history, harking back to some of the statements they made. It is all very
:03:48. > :03:51.philosophical but let's think practical. You put up on the web a
:03:52. > :03:56.design for a gun, just for a few days before it was taken down by
:03:57. > :04:01.federal authorities. It was available to anyone and at least
:04:02. > :04:05.100,000 people downloaded it. There are now many people, not just in the
:04:06. > :04:11.US but across the world, who can follow your guide and build a
:04:12. > :04:16.home`made gun using a 3D printer. Yeah, that's right. And of course,
:04:17. > :04:20.we did not put it up for a few days. To put up for a few days is to put
:04:21. > :04:26.up forever. Everyone understands the dimension of that. What we did was a
:04:27. > :04:33.permanent situational transfer. The direct contradiction of an entire...
:04:34. > :04:36.The whole situation was trying to say that this is something that
:04:37. > :04:40.should not happen. We were saying no, it is going to happen. You said
:04:41. > :04:43.there is a philosophy behind it but sticking with the practical, you
:04:44. > :04:46.live in a country where there are 300 million guns in civilian hands,
:04:47. > :04:56.a country where anybody who wants a gun can get a gun. Yes, there are
:04:57. > :04:58.certain restrictions, but we know through online purchases and
:04:59. > :05:06.Craigslist and everything else, if you want a gun you can get one. What
:05:07. > :05:12.on earth was the point? It was less discernible to an American audience.
:05:13. > :05:15.There was a kind of ennui about it. I said, hey, we are going to put
:05:16. > :05:23.this online, and the typical American response was, so what? I
:05:24. > :05:28.can just go buy one. So it was a challenge. You pushed it to the most
:05:29. > :05:31.perverse limit because you decided with your company, as I understand
:05:32. > :05:34.it, to produce a particular part for a semi`automatic rifle that is
:05:35. > :05:43.normally stamped with a serial number. You are offering people the
:05:44. > :05:47.chance to buy that part, produced by a 3D printer, with no serial number
:05:48. > :05:54.on it. It is an invitation to criminals. Not to buy. There was no
:05:55. > :05:57.economic element. It is an invitation to criminals to make a
:05:58. > :06:00.weapon with your particular part that you are offering, open source
:06:01. > :06:07.to anybody, making that gun untraceable. Yes. You are familiar
:06:08. > :06:12.with the Liberator pistol? I am not talking about the Liberator. I'm
:06:13. > :06:19.talking about the AR`15. I do not consider that as radical as the
:06:20. > :06:22.pistol. But it is a lethal weapon, the sort of weapon that Adam Lanza
:06:23. > :06:28.used at Sandy Hook Elementary. Oh, it has had its moment of infamy. Why
:06:29. > :06:31.do you want to help people develop a gun like that, which is untraceable
:06:32. > :06:37.because the key part that has the serial number is off a 3D printer? I
:06:38. > :06:43.love where you are coming from but we have not contributed to that
:06:44. > :06:48.space at that point. Making rifle receivers was commonplace. The files
:06:49. > :06:51.are already on the Internet. We did not really... We brought people
:06:52. > :06:55.people's attention to the fact it could be done but we did not
:06:56. > :06:59.contribute to it. I think we made receivers in polymer, which was
:07:00. > :07:07.again kind of new. That was the opening act to gain attention. I
:07:08. > :07:11.have not tried to avoid the question. As you're saying, that was
:07:12. > :07:17.already achievable. The only thing that we did was tell people that
:07:18. > :07:21.this is pretty easy. There is a subjective element to your own
:07:22. > :07:26.genesis. Allow me to address a moral reflection on your activities. You
:07:27. > :07:32.are suggesting this has nothing to do with morality. I am just pointing
:07:33. > :07:37.out to people what they can do. This is why I do BBC and UK television.
:07:38. > :07:43.It always comes down to, what is the level of responsibility? I really
:07:44. > :07:49.think I want to try to go beyond good and evil here. I think that the
:07:50. > :07:51.greater question is ` is this morality to set up a permanent
:07:52. > :08:01.surveillance warfare state programme that only gives us a kind of appeal
:08:02. > :08:04.to universalism that reinforces it? Whether it be guns or drugs or a
:08:05. > :08:07.host of other things, medicine, whatever, the government sees fit to
:08:08. > :08:14.regulate in the interest, they say, of the public. It seems that your
:08:15. > :08:22.message generally is that you don't believe in any form of government
:08:23. > :08:25.regulation. If you can use the Internet to subvert regulation,
:08:26. > :08:31.rules and control coming from the state, you will. Yeah, I think so.
:08:32. > :08:35.There are certain projects I will not step into because they are less
:08:36. > :08:38.technically achievable. With the 3D printer we noticed that these
:08:39. > :08:44.plastics which are already being distributed, these printers can
:08:45. > :08:51.already print a gun. It was a moment just waiting to be executed. It is
:08:52. > :08:53.not about... It's about being extremely suspicious of a kind of
:08:54. > :08:59.self`justifications of the present order. It is not just, like, I
:09:00. > :09:07.oppose regulations as a fetishistic reaction. I do want to be
:09:08. > :09:11.controlled, that is in all of us. I think it is something else that we
:09:12. > :09:13.can teach and project a kind of suspicion and demonstrate with these
:09:14. > :09:19.objective strategies and projects we have. This is yields a certain...
:09:20. > :09:23.What was the provocation that the government responded to in my case
:09:24. > :09:27.was a direct message. If you just press a button and get a gun, that
:09:28. > :09:33.was something that had to be contested. I want to put to you this
:09:34. > :09:36.thing about the Silk Road. It became a marketplace for the sort of
:09:37. > :09:46.Internet trades which were, in the real word or the legitimate world,
:09:47. > :09:49.illegal. Gun`running, buying drugs. All these things happened on the
:09:50. > :09:58.Silk Road. You are a great advocate of the Silk Road. Explain to me why.
:09:59. > :10:02.I wish I was a better one. I want to come from a different ethical
:10:03. > :10:05.discourse. I want us to be able to think evil and engage in extreme
:10:06. > :10:11.phenomena. This is kind of human destiny. Right? In that there is a
:10:12. > :10:14.massive cultural, social force which has been ingrained and is something
:10:15. > :10:21.of a legacy, which is built on to prevent us from reaching these
:10:22. > :10:25.conclusions and operations. I wonder if you got a buzz, from being named
:10:26. > :10:33.in Wired Magazine as one of the 15 Most Dangerous People in the World.
:10:34. > :10:38.Is that something that appeals to your character? That's the thing.
:10:39. > :10:42.The guy who named me that thought it would be some kind of injury. It was
:10:43. > :10:49.a feather in my cap. You got a kick out of that? Anarchy is such an
:10:50. > :10:51.interesting concept because it seems to build into itself so much
:10:52. > :11:01.destructive power ` to tear things down, to destroy, to be nihilistic.
:11:02. > :11:08.Is it your aim to tear down the capitalist system? Oh, wow.
:11:09. > :11:14.Capitalism is such... Like anarchy is, they're packed with historical
:11:15. > :11:16.associations. I often use the word anarchy and crypto`anarchy as a way
:11:17. > :11:25.of challenging that historical position. Mostly, I want people to
:11:26. > :11:28.think anti`state, to be suspicious. So far we have talked about state
:11:29. > :11:36.regulation and how it is unacceptable to regulate guns. I
:11:37. > :11:39.want to turn to capitalism. It seems to me there is an interesting debate
:11:40. > :11:42.about 3D printing in particular which, because it changes the mode
:11:43. > :11:44.of production, it challenges our traditional economies which in the
:11:45. > :11:50.developed world, have been built for centuries on production.
:11:51. > :11:53.Manufacturing. If you take a product, you can load it onto your
:11:54. > :11:58.computer and turn it into a design that you can then download and make
:11:59. > :12:00.at home on your printer. That just kills off intellectual property
:12:01. > :12:11.rights in the manufacturing industry. It does make them less
:12:12. > :12:14.operable. A number of people are extremely unhappy about digital
:12:15. > :12:22.manufacturing. These network devices, industrial structures. That
:12:23. > :12:22.model is antithetical to the current top`down,
:12:23. > :12:32.progressively`administrative operation. This model can be easily
:12:33. > :12:35.imported to the gun control debate. That is one of the first things we
:12:36. > :12:38.did. Gun control, background checks, what does that depend upon? On a
:12:39. > :12:41.large corporation stamping a model with a sear, these big players
:12:42. > :12:47.getting involved so it's something you can buy from a company. Now, I
:12:48. > :12:53.have something you can download from the Internet relatively anonymously
:12:54. > :12:56.and print out at your own home. And it is undetectable to modern imaging
:12:57. > :13:01.techniques. It was an explosion of the whole paradigm. And it's more
:13:02. > :13:04.than what was even thought achievable. The media has focused
:13:05. > :13:08.mostly on your anti`state message but I am suggesting you have an
:13:09. > :13:12.anti`capitalist message. Is it your idea that you can, via the Internet
:13:13. > :13:19.and the use of the Internet, tear down capitalism? Yes. The only thing
:13:20. > :13:22.that has stopped me so far, only stopped me from publishing the files
:13:23. > :13:24.to the Internet, was an intellectual property claim by the political,
:13:25. > :13:30.diplomatic Bureau of the State Department. It is these regimes that
:13:31. > :13:33.prevent biotech, electronics, armament and medicine from getting
:13:34. > :13:42.out of certain structures and into the people in a more diffuse way.
:13:43. > :13:47.Let's use the 3D printer as a concrete example. This thing was
:13:48. > :13:51.sold and used by these strategists, these legacy players, people who had
:13:52. > :13:54.been in the space for 30 years. Once they saw there was a retail space,
:13:55. > :14:01.they said it was the next industrial revolution. Look at all the trinkets
:14:02. > :14:06.you can make! But there was an intense effort at preventing
:14:07. > :14:11.unintended uses. The actual interesting uses which, when the 3`D
:14:12. > :14:30.printer... How can we contain each component of this machine? You
:14:31. > :14:34.cannot hack the firmware on an Apple machine. Everything is segmented and
:14:35. > :14:37.it's an illusion of an Industrial Revolution that we say is just
:14:38. > :14:40.advertising. If you say it's a revolution and you want to go
:14:41. > :14:41.further, my question is why anyone will invest in innovation in R
:14:42. > :14:49.LAUGHTER. If as soon as they produce something
:14:50. > :14:53.new, it goes to open source immediately and people can just make
:14:54. > :15:01.it themselves? This is a common refrain of the critics. The large
:15:02. > :15:09.firm is valuable because it can invest in development. Well, give me
:15:10. > :15:12.some answers, then. People who say that only these people can innovate.
:15:13. > :15:14.Anybody can innovate. It's mostly portfolio patents and patents in
:15:15. > :15:17.portfolios, these large projects, allow these large players to sue you
:15:18. > :15:22.once you enter the space and bring someone down. I would say, to the
:15:23. > :15:26.contrary, that if the laws of IP crumble a bit more, there would be
:15:27. > :15:33.more rapid innovation in different spaces. This seems like I'm some
:15:34. > :15:36.kind of liberal romantic. Like, let innovation run free. I just believe
:15:37. > :15:41.that it's structurally more true. You have a great trust, it seems, in
:15:42. > :15:44.where the internet can take us. You are basically a very optimistic guy
:15:45. > :15:48.about how individuals can be empowered through the internet. Are
:15:49. > :15:57.there not some very recent reasons that give you pause? I'm thinking of
:15:58. > :16:00.Bitcoin, for example. It has been trumpeted over the last two years as
:16:01. > :16:03.the future of currency, pure electronic currency not controlled
:16:04. > :16:06.by a nation state or a reserve bank, based on algorithms, computerised
:16:07. > :16:13.and devised by some brilliant genius in Japan. And yet it turns out that
:16:14. > :16:16.over the last few weeks, the greatest exchange for Bitcoin has
:16:17. > :16:19.been hacked into and they lost millions of millions of dollars
:16:20. > :16:28.worth and faith and credibility in this currency has gone through the
:16:29. > :16:36.floor. One, I don't believe that's true. There still strong price
:16:37. > :16:40.support. It has more than halved in value. If you bought at the top, you
:16:41. > :16:44.would say that you wished you'd never heard of... Well, never buy at
:16:45. > :16:48.the top. If you have a dollar in your pocket, you can be pretty sure
:16:49. > :16:54.the US government is not going to go bust. Bitcoin does not have that
:16:55. > :16:58.fundamental guarantee. This comes to a critical discussion about what is
:16:59. > :17:02.money. Is it a thing that is backed by a large player? The dollar will
:17:03. > :17:08.have value because of guns and oil and that's true in an immediate
:17:09. > :17:16.sense. Everyone knows that the dollar is in a perpetual freefall.
:17:17. > :17:18.We have quantitative easing and open market operations and it's just an
:17:19. > :17:21.instrument to achieve a wealth effect in domestic policy and keep
:17:22. > :17:24.the people happy about the stock market and their jobs and
:17:25. > :17:33.everything. It's an instrument to beat us over the head. Bitcoin as a
:17:34. > :17:37.store of value is still valuable. It did 56 times in appreciation in the
:17:38. > :17:40.last year alone. I don't want to sell Bitcoin as a way that people
:17:41. > :17:43.can get rich or speculate. Digital libertarians are still into Bitcoin.
:17:44. > :17:50.My company is working on an anonymity protocol, a tool in the
:17:51. > :17:54.browser called a Dark Wallet. We have been working on it since
:17:55. > :17:57.November. To make exchanges even more secretive than before? And you
:17:58. > :18:02.know darn well who is going to want to use that new technology. Yes, the
:18:03. > :18:06.free man. The free man will use it. A criminal is the ultimate free man.
:18:07. > :18:09.That says something. Most human activity, and this is an OECD
:18:10. > :18:17.assertion, most human activity occurs outside of regulation, the
:18:18. > :18:23.all`seeing eye of the state. Two`thirds of activity by 2020 will
:18:24. > :18:26.be, like, the black market activity. That's, like, what just has to get
:18:27. > :18:30.done, what has to happen in this world. I want these people to use
:18:31. > :18:34.digital cash. I want them to use it as anonymously as possible. And
:18:35. > :18:37.everything else is just an illusion. Everyone else is just trying to tell
:18:38. > :18:43.a competing story in the history of technology. Everyone is trying to
:18:44. > :18:47.brush up Bitcoin and put a suit and tie on it and say that it's part of
:18:48. > :18:51.the story of money and nations. We say it's part of the fundamental
:18:52. > :19:00.question. Criminals use it. Yes, they use cash as well. Bitcoin will
:19:01. > :19:03.never be regulated. When there was a crisis, as there was in the MtGox
:19:04. > :19:06.exchange when it became clear it had been hacked into, there was no way
:19:07. > :19:12.to restore confidence, credibility, among users because there is no real
:19:13. > :19:16.authority behind that currency. I have two things to say about it.
:19:17. > :19:21.First, thank God the banks did not step into this. It was bad
:19:22. > :19:26.technology and it was a bad company. It should have been destroyed and
:19:27. > :19:29.liquidated. None of the people I know were in MtGox. Many people I
:19:30. > :19:33.know were laughing at the people who got owned in MtGox. I know that's
:19:34. > :19:39.not perfectly fair but we use other exchanges. Don't trust someone with
:19:40. > :19:41.your private keys. That happens. Everything you say and point to
:19:42. > :19:52.suggests a fundamentally different world within ten or 20 years. You
:19:53. > :19:55.say that what we call the black market, this shadow economy, is
:19:56. > :19:58.going to explode. It's already, like, the largest... If you took the
:19:59. > :20:01.entire global shadow economy, it's the largest economy in the world.
:20:02. > :20:05.It's bigger than the US and necessarily so. Especially as the
:20:06. > :20:08.regulatory state becomes so byzantine. It's impossible to get
:20:09. > :20:14.anything done. People have to eat. Things have to happen in the world.
:20:15. > :20:17.When I listen to your stuff, I cannot help but think on what Evgeny
:20:18. > :20:22.Morozov, one of the leading analysts in the world on the internet, has
:20:23. > :20:25.said. He talks about two clear phenomena among people like
:20:26. > :20:32.yourself, who spend all of your time thinking about an internet future.
:20:33. > :20:34.He talks about cyber`utopianism and internet`centricism, the idea that
:20:35. > :20:41.the identified logic of the internet will reshape every environment it
:20:42. > :20:46.penetrates. So often, it will be the other way around. I'm more
:20:47. > :20:53.suspicious of the future that everyone is talking about. I reverse
:20:54. > :20:59.this. No, the real utopia is right now. It's thinking that there could
:21:00. > :21:07.be some kind of, you know, these secular assertions about the state
:21:08. > :21:09.of technology. After I did the 3D printing thing, New York congressmen
:21:10. > :21:12.said that they would freeze the state of the technology so that
:21:13. > :21:16.critical pieces of guns will always be made of metal. Or we will return
:21:17. > :21:19.to 1994 and do background checks and everyone will have a serial number
:21:20. > :21:22.on their gun. The entire organisation in the framing of the
:21:23. > :21:25.situation suggests the opposite. The utopia is now. Do you not see what
:21:26. > :21:27.they're pointing to? You maybe overestimate the ability of
:21:28. > :21:36.individuals to harness the power of the internet. It may be traditional
:21:37. > :21:39.power structures of the state and big corporate capitalist enterprises
:21:40. > :21:47.that are best able to harness the power. No question. What did Edward
:21:48. > :21:51.Snowden teach all of us? That the deep state is real and there is no
:21:52. > :21:53.way to separate the eminence of the mechanisms of control from what
:21:54. > :21:56.would ostensibly be the techniques of liberation. You suggest that we
:21:57. > :21:59.are going to be freer than ever thanks to the internet. I might
:22:00. > :22:08.suggest that we remain more exposed, more vulnerable and more party to
:22:09. > :22:10.the powers that be than ever before. I believe that the current
:22:11. > :22:13.technologies, Facebook, Bitcoin, GoogleGlass, these are more used as
:22:14. > :22:16.technologies of the self, ways that we can bind ourselves to these
:22:17. > :22:19.existing powers than anything else. I'm not optimistic about a grand
:22:20. > :22:23.liberative moment. I think that emancipatory participation is
:22:24. > :22:35.possible. Look at what I did with the gun. This followed a fatal
:22:36. > :22:38.object of strategy. I don't know, we put the gun where it needed to go.
:22:39. > :22:41.It's in the internet forever. That does not mean there will be some
:22:42. > :22:51.kind of grand enlightenment because of it. These techniques and these
:22:52. > :22:53.strategies are still available against the adversary in Family
:22:54. > :22:56.America, the UK, the West itself. It can be tricked into helping us
:22:57. > :23:00.execute our plans. I never think that there will be some kind of mass
:23:01. > :23:03.awakening. You seem to believe the internet is the great way to
:23:04. > :23:07.diminish, maybe even destroy, big government. Barack Obama addressed
:23:08. > :23:10.this point not so long ago and said, hang on a minute, remember what big
:23:11. > :23:13.government is. We are big government. Government is ours. And
:23:14. > :23:21.you simply do not buy that for one second? Barack Obama is a grocery
:23:22. > :23:25.clerk, a fraud and salesman just to sell you something. Democracy as it
:23:26. > :23:30.is practised in the US... Democracy has been liquidated. Everything is a
:23:31. > :23:32.pretence to sell you the larger mechanisms of control. Liberalism
:23:33. > :23:36.is, like, selling you the larger mechanisms of control. Liberalism is
:23:37. > :23:40.what we whistle while we, like, assert our domination over people.
:23:41. > :23:45.No, that's all for TV. Just like this interview. Thank you very much
:23:46. > :24:21.for being on HARDtalk. There is some warmer weather on the
:24:22. > :24:26.way for most of us, not just yet though. Still quite chilly out there
:24:27. > :24:29.with computers close to freezing. Too many areas of rain continuing as
:24:30. > :24:32.we head into the morning. The first is in northern areas being ready to
:24:33. > :24:33.Northern