:00:00. > :00:13.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Zainab Badawi. At the zenith of his career,
:00:14. > :00:20.he was described as the third most powerful figure in Cuba after the
:00:21. > :00:22.Castro brothers. Until 2013, Ricardo Alarcon was president of Cuba's
:00:23. > :00:26.parliament, the National Assembly, and is a veteran on the political
:00:27. > :00:28.and diplomatic scene. He's a former Foreign Minister and long-time
:00:29. > :00:34.ambassador for Cuba to the United Nations. He still wields a great
:00:35. > :00:37.deal of influence and now spends most of his time campaigning for the
:00:38. > :00:45.release of three Cubans jailed in the US for spying. Isn't it time the
:00:46. > :01:04.US and Cuba buried the hatchet and normalised relations?
:01:05. > :01:15.Ricardo Alarcon, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What is Cuba
:01:16. > :01:18.prepared to do to end a long stalemate with the US, which imposed
:01:19. > :01:21.an economic embargo and broke off diplomatic relations in the 1960s?
:01:22. > :01:27.We are prepared to sit down with them on an equal footing and talk
:01:28. > :01:31.about our differences. I think that it is the West that has to listen to
:01:32. > :01:42.the rest of the world, to the countries in the Western Hemisphere,
:01:43. > :01:44.and to its own public opinion. The last survey from Washington showed
:01:45. > :01:47.that the vast majority of Americans, especially and curiously enough,
:01:48. > :01:50.those living in southern Florida, in other words, a big number of Cubans,
:01:51. > :01:53.64% of the population in Dade County, Miami, are against the
:01:54. > :01:54.embargo against Cuba and are in favour of normalisation of
:01:55. > :02:19.relations. Barack Obama in 2009 after he became
:02:20. > :02:24.president said, I want to turn the page with Cuba and I want warmer
:02:25. > :02:28.ties with them. Do you see that happening? Unfortunately, that is
:02:29. > :02:34.one of his promises that has not been fulfilled. He shook hands with
:02:35. > :02:39.President Raul Castro at Nelson Mandela's funeral. Everybody saw
:02:40. > :02:45.that. They are polite, well-educated human beings and they say hello to
:02:46. > :02:51.each other. That is the way it should be. Isn't it more than that?
:02:52. > :02:54.Would George Bush have ever done anything like that with Fidel
:02:55. > :03:07.Castro? It was an important symbol, wasn't it? President Obama has
:03:08. > :03:12.changed the style of authority. He is completely different from his
:03:13. > :03:15.predecessor. He has listened to the people of Miami by facilitating
:03:16. > :03:27.travel for Cuban-Americans to Cuba, but still he continues to forbid
:03:28. > :03:30.that to American-Americans. President Raul Castro has been
:03:31. > :03:33.quoted in December of last year that if we really want to move our
:03:34. > :03:37.bilateral relations forward, we will have to learn to respect our
:03:38. > :03:40.differences, talking about the US. If not, he says, we are ready to
:03:41. > :03:51.wait another 55 years in the same situation. Really? Isn't that just
:03:52. > :04:01.bluster? Well, it's a metaphor to reflect the feelings and strength of
:04:02. > :04:04.belief of the population. The fact is that the Cuban people have
:04:05. > :04:08.resisted for 54 years, which means it is not just the first generation
:04:09. > :04:19.of the revolution but their children and their grandchildren. The main
:04:20. > :04:33.point is that that policy has long been defeated. It's a failed policy.
:04:34. > :04:36.That's the worst part of it. But you just said the Cuban population was
:04:37. > :04:39.behind that sentiment that President Raul Castro said. Of course, it's
:04:40. > :04:42.difficult to gauge public opinion in Cuba, but I can give you one
:04:43. > :04:46.example. I won't name him, but one retired state worker said that when
:04:47. > :04:52.he heard this, he is not ready for more of the same situation. He is 72
:04:53. > :04:56.and would like to see light at the end of the tunnel before he dies.
:04:57. > :05:04.There must be many more like him who want to see normalised relations and
:05:05. > :05:08.the end to the embargo. My dear lady, I would love to live another
:05:09. > :05:14.50 years even if it was under the American embargo, but I don't think
:05:15. > :05:17.such a long time will be necessary. It will be very difficult for the US
:05:18. > :05:25.to continue this social policy in complete isolation. They are the
:05:26. > :05:31.ones who are completely isolated in the Western Hemisphere regarding
:05:32. > :05:34.Cuba. Havana was the venue last January of a head of state
:05:35. > :05:45.conference attended by everybody in the Western Hemisphere. The
:05:46. > :05:51.community of Latin American and Caribbean States does not include
:05:52. > :05:55.the US or Canada. It is a Latin American and Caribbean group and it
:05:56. > :06:00.is presided over by Cuba. What isolation are they talking about?
:06:01. > :06:08.Why do you think the US takes this position on Cuba? You have been to
:06:09. > :06:13.the US. I think that the main problem is that for the US, Cuba is
:06:14. > :06:22.not a big problem. It's a minor thing. It's a very little island
:06:23. > :06:30.close to their shores and the US can resist being condemned every year at
:06:31. > :06:33.the UN. So what? Do you think that there will be a normalisation in
:06:34. > :06:40.diplomatic relations between Cuba and the US? I do believe that. I
:06:41. > :06:43.don't think that a policy that is not rational and is not to the
:06:44. > :07:00.benefit of the world can last forever. -- benefit to the one who
:07:01. > :07:03.imposed it. How soon until we might see real change, do you think?
:07:04. > :07:07.Maybe... I cannot be sure because I don't know what will happen in the
:07:08. > :07:10.US in the next few years. Let's look at one big change that has happened
:07:11. > :07:13.in Cuba. Raul Castro succeeded his brother, Fidel Castro, as president
:07:14. > :07:16.in 2008 and in 2010, he said he wanted to introduce economic
:07:17. > :07:24.reforms, to introduce some market principles to the command economy of
:07:25. > :07:27.state-run enterprises in Cuba. Does that mean that the Cuban government
:07:28. > :07:41.is now less antagonistic towards private business? Of course it's not
:07:42. > :07:43.antagonistic at all. As a matter of fact, the Cuban revolution created
:07:44. > :07:52.more private, small private entrepreneurs than any other regime
:07:53. > :07:55.in the history of Cuba. We created the agrarian reform law that created
:07:56. > :08:05.thousands of small farmers and gave them the titles to the property of
:08:06. > :08:08.their land. That is going back to the revolution after Batista in the
:08:09. > :08:12.late 1950s. We are not so antagonistic. But most people in
:08:13. > :08:20.Cuba were employed by the state before these reforms. You could be a
:08:21. > :08:24.hairdresser and be employed by the state. That's true. But now you have
:08:25. > :08:30.these changes that Raul Castro has brought in. For instance, you can
:08:31. > :08:35.now buy and sell property. You can lease land from the government and
:08:36. > :08:37.you can farm that. There have been these reforms. Is the Cuban
:08:38. > :08:51.socialist revolution going capitalist? No, but we are really
:08:52. > :08:55.finding our socialism. We do not believe... What was perhaps one of
:08:56. > :09:00.the worst effects of the Cold War years... In those days, people on
:09:01. > :09:02.the left assumed that there was one socialism, a so-called real
:09:03. > :09:20.socialism, and that failed completely in Eastern Europe. The
:09:21. > :09:22.fact is that the real socialist society should come from within,
:09:23. > :09:30.from inside, from its own culture and traditions. In other words,
:09:31. > :09:35.there is no such thing as a socialist model to be followed by
:09:36. > :09:44.all. You have changed your model. That is the point. A report by the
:09:45. > :09:46.Centre for Democracy says that the reforms that have taken place in
:09:47. > :09:49.Cuba highlight an acceptance that market forces can play a role in
:09:50. > :09:53.economic policy, so these reforms are broader and more permanent than
:09:54. > :10:00.the kind of changes you might have seen in the past. Do you accept
:10:01. > :10:02.that? Entirely. Therefore, I ask you again - is the Cuban socialist
:10:03. > :10:09.revolution adopting some capitalist principles? And if so, isn't that an
:10:10. > :10:19.admission that the system as it has been practised in Cuba has partly
:10:20. > :10:23.failed? It is recognition of certain realities. The world has changed.
:10:24. > :10:33.You have to adjust to a changing world. On the one hand, it is a
:10:34. > :10:36.recognition of some mistakes, of some exaggeration in, for instance,
:10:37. > :10:49.the hairdresser example that you put as an example of an exaggeration of
:10:50. > :10:55.the role of the state. What mistakes? What mistakes did the
:10:56. > :10:57.revolution make? Having a lot of activities that could be performed
:10:58. > :11:11.by individuals, by families, and that are not necessarily to be in
:11:12. > :11:14.the hands of the state. We believe that what socialism means is state
:11:15. > :11:23.ownership or control over the main means of production. That's not a
:11:24. > :11:28.hairdresser. That's not a small plot of land. That's not a small-trade
:11:29. > :11:33.business. The state will still be the key economic player in the Cuban
:11:34. > :11:37.economy. But when one Communist Party member said in 2012 that by
:11:38. > :11:39.2017, 45% of Cuba's GDP will be from different forms of non-state
:11:40. > :11:52.production, that is, in private hands, that sounds like a big chunk.
:11:53. > :11:57.Nearly half of Cuba's GDP not controlled by the state? That's an
:11:58. > :12:00.erosion of state power in the economy. Control does not
:12:01. > :12:25.necessarily mean direct ownership and management. Control also
:12:26. > :12:28.refers... To the role of the state. We believe that society should be
:12:29. > :12:30.organised in such a way as to guarantee that everybody has free
:12:31. > :12:34.education and free healthcare. By the way, our system is not far at
:12:35. > :12:40.all from the British system in healthcare. What is that?
:12:41. > :12:45.Capitalist? A socialist system? A republican system? But you cannot
:12:46. > :12:54.guarantee jobs for life in the public sector. You have issues. You
:12:55. > :13:01.say you want to give people what they want. Let me give you one
:13:02. > :13:04.example. Look at consumer goods. The authorities say that they will relax
:13:05. > :13:10.some of their restrictions on people buying things. You can buy a basic,
:13:11. > :13:15.simple car in Cuba if you have $260,000. And the average salary is
:13:16. > :13:21.$20 per month. You are not giving the people what they want. Maria
:13:22. > :13:28.Rosas, a 42-year-old office worker in Cuba, makes $12 per month. She
:13:29. > :13:32.says she sees things like a blender, a sandwich-maker or a steam iron
:13:33. > :13:36.that she would like to have, but she cannot afford to. How does that make
:13:37. > :13:37.you feel? Cubans say they want to buy basic household goods but they
:13:38. > :13:54.cannot afford them. People in all countries have
:13:55. > :13:58.difficulties finding a job. But not to that extent. Even in developing
:13:59. > :14:02.nations in Africa, they own a cellphone. I hope you don't go
:14:03. > :14:09.pursue that woman, now... But she can go to the best hospital, she can
:14:10. > :14:13.have the best education. And she can get that for her children as well
:14:14. > :14:21.without paying a cent. You said, in the UK you have a health system, we
:14:22. > :14:25.have a similar thing in Cuba. In the UK, you can go and buy something as
:14:26. > :14:30.basic as a steam iron, as well as having the healthcare.
:14:31. > :14:38.Some people are more equal than others. We have more access to those
:14:39. > :14:41.goods than others. Who has access to those goods, who
:14:42. > :14:48.is buying them? Obviously there is inequality. That
:14:49. > :14:51.is a consequence of the market. Who is buying those goods, a
:14:52. > :14:58.sandwich maker that may cost $20 in other countries, may cost three
:14:59. > :15:02.times in Cuba. Basic consumer goods are at least three times as much as
:15:03. > :15:15.they are online in most countries. Who can afford to buy these things
:15:16. > :15:26.if the basic salary is $20 a month? There are imbalances in our economy
:15:27. > :15:29.that are precisely... The reforms are aimed, among other things, to
:15:30. > :15:48.eliminate them, to make those imbalances disappear.
:15:49. > :15:56.2012, 47,000 Cubans left Cuba permanently, we think. A lot of
:15:57. > :15:59.people. Remember that those are people who
:16:00. > :16:12.get an American visa, and the basis for getting a US visa is to have a
:16:13. > :16:15.relative in the US. But they are leaving, in their
:16:16. > :16:23.thousands. More than they did since 1994.
:16:24. > :16:27.More people are returning Cuba than ever before. I am not prepared to
:16:28. > :16:33.disclose publicly, the number of those who are doing the reverse
:16:34. > :16:36.travel. Those Cubans who are going back to Cuba from the US. As it
:16:37. > :16:40.happened with some Latin American countries.
:16:41. > :16:44.Is that really so? A Republican senator of Cuban parents said, how
:16:45. > :16:54.come I never hear about boatloads of refugees going to Cuba?
:16:55. > :16:56.He does not want to hear. Why can't you disclose these
:16:57. > :17:09.numbers? He is lying. You should be talking
:17:10. > :17:14.about that person. You said there are a lot going back.
:17:15. > :17:18.Why can't you disclose the number? You only need to go to the airport
:17:19. > :17:24.in Miami, which is the airport that has more flights to Cuba than
:17:25. > :17:28.anywhere else. Daily flights. Only for Cubans, and some of them, after
:17:29. > :17:32.they land in the country, basically want to remain. We are not going to
:17:33. > :17:41.say the names and their figures, because they have measures against
:17:42. > :17:56.those people to punish them. They have families in Miami.
:17:57. > :18:00.You said, we have high literacy rate in Cuba, I will not quote again, but
:18:01. > :18:08.he makes the point, what is the point of the literacy rate when you
:18:09. > :18:13.don't have access to the internet? Access to the internet in Cuba is
:18:14. > :18:16.the worst in the world. Do you know any other country that
:18:17. > :18:22.US companies are not permitted to operate in? Do you know any other
:18:23. > :18:25.country... What does that have to do with your
:18:26. > :18:28.media within the country? Newspapers, the state has a
:18:29. > :18:33.monopoly. You mentioned the internet. Every
:18:34. > :18:36.country in Latin America gets access to the internet through a cable that
:18:37. > :18:45.moves around the island of Cuba, except Cuba. Cuba cannot use it
:18:46. > :18:50.because it is under US control. Then what do they save?
:18:51. > :18:53.What about freedom of expression, you have human rights organisations,
:18:54. > :19:01.a UN body on human rights, saying that freedom of expression is
:19:02. > :19:05.lacking. There are arbitrary detentions still. Some journalists
:19:06. > :19:15.are in jail for months at a time without trial. Is there freedom in
:19:16. > :19:25.the media in Cuba? There is not. It is not the best
:19:26. > :19:27.media. Cubans have certain possibilities of expression that
:19:28. > :19:35.they would not have around the world. When I talk about reforms,
:19:36. > :19:48.every one of them, all of them, have been discussed with the people. The
:19:49. > :19:55.people have the opportunity to express themselves and to modify
:19:56. > :20:01.proposals. For 20 years I was president of the National Assembly.
:20:02. > :20:10.I never voted on a law without having it discussed with everybody.
:20:11. > :20:14.That does not exist in other societies.
:20:15. > :20:18.I want to ask you about your campaign for Cubans who are held in
:20:19. > :20:23.US prisons. Americans say they have been spying. Two have been released.
:20:24. > :20:33.That is a big obstacle to better relations between Cuba and the US.
:20:34. > :20:35.That you have a US contractor who was trying to bring Internet
:20:36. > :20:47.communications to the Jewish community in Cuba. --internet.
:20:48. > :20:58.The US community had the right to say it, they deny that allegation.
:20:59. > :21:12.Would you swap the remaining three Cubans being held in US prisons for
:21:13. > :21:16.spying for him? I think that they should be free. He
:21:17. > :21:19.should also have the opportunity to see his family. We have said, time
:21:20. > :21:22.and again, the Foreign Ministry, our representatives, have said time and
:21:23. > :21:26.again that Cuba is prepared to sit down with the US to solve the issue,
:21:27. > :21:29.to find a humanitarian solution to that. But, at the same time, we also
:21:30. > :21:32.have to address legitimate humanitarian concerns related to the
:21:33. > :21:44.five who are now three, and their families.
:21:45. > :21:57.They have been separated for a long time.
:21:58. > :22:07.Just quickly on that, will you see movement on that?
:22:08. > :22:14.I hope so. I think that the US is getting the message.
:22:15. > :22:20.President Raul Castro says he will not be running again in 2018 as
:22:21. > :22:23.president. His older brother has already gone off the scene. You, in
:22:24. > :22:25.your mid-70s, you were removed from the Communist Party's powerful
:22:26. > :22:29.Central Committee. Do you think that it is time to make way for a new
:22:30. > :22:49.generation of leaders, sooner, rather than later?
:22:50. > :22:51.Of course. I agree. I behave following that principle. I am
:22:52. > :22:56.retired. They named my successor. He is not a young boy, but he is much
:22:57. > :23:13.younger than me. I think that is the way it should be.
:23:14. > :23:18.Should the president stepped down? I think that if it were up to him,
:23:19. > :23:21.he would have done that. I think he will continue performing his duties
:23:22. > :23:25.as president until the term of his mandate.
:23:26. > :23:33.Ricardo Alarcon, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
:23:34. > :24:04.It was a pleasure, it was not that hard.
:24:05. > :24:10.It has been a much dryer week and that looks to continue through the
:24:11. > :24:13.weekend. Some of us have had some ring like sunshine and for some of
:24:14. > :24:16.us again it will be warm in the sunshine.