:00:00. > :00:09.Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:10. > :00:24.Welcome to HARDtalk. Today I am in suburban Beijing. Behind this while
:00:25. > :00:30.is the home of the studio of my gas. He is China's most famous artist.
:00:31. > :00:33.His art and his life had become a challenge to China's authoritarian
:00:34. > :00:54.rules. Ai Weiwei's compound is monitored by
:00:55. > :00:57.a host of surveillance cameras. In 2011, he was accused of financial
:00:58. > :01:08.crimes, imprisoned for 81 days and fined over $2 million. His passport
:01:09. > :01:14.has still not been returned. It seems the state still sees him as a
:01:15. > :01:17.threat. Every morning at 9am, Ai Weiwei emerges from his house to
:01:18. > :01:25.place flowers in the basket of a bicycle left of the street.
:01:26. > :01:34.It is a ritual he will continue until his passport is returned. He
:01:35. > :01:40.films the daily scene and posts it on the web, part protest, part
:01:41. > :01:45.performance art. Inside his studio he is still free to work. His
:01:46. > :01:53.trademark is installation art, sound and made objects, photography,
:01:54. > :01:56.design. All used to challenge and subvert. Right now, he is preparing
:01:57. > :02:04.for major exhibitions in Berlin and California. Of course he won't be
:02:05. > :02:12.there to see them. Are you, by asking questions and constantly
:02:13. > :02:15.asking why, are you a problem? Yes. Because you are touching the base of
:02:16. > :02:22.their existence, so you become dangerous.
:02:23. > :02:33.Questions are not recommended, not in the system. Ai Weiwei's every
:02:34. > :02:38.move is watched. He knows the state has many ways to squeeze him.
:02:39. > :02:42.Before, it was quite intense. If I walk in the park, anything, you can
:02:43. > :02:50.see people following you or hiding behind the bush.
:02:51. > :02:55.In the coffee shops, you can see them sitting next to you, pretending
:02:56. > :03:03.they are drinking or ordering ice cream.
:03:04. > :03:13.Quite relentless? Yes. We drove across Beijing to see one of Ai
:03:14. > :03:18.Weiwei's most famous designs. The Olympic Stadium. When you spoke
:03:19. > :03:24.immediately after the Olympics, you were disappointed. You said you felt
:03:25. > :03:34.it was a fake event, an empty smile to the world. Do you feel that in a
:03:35. > :03:37.way you got sucked into that? Yes. I recognised that too late, before the
:03:38. > :03:52.celebration, I realised it was a piece of propaganda. Nothing to do
:03:53. > :03:57.with the joy of the citizens here. There it sits ` a surreal symbol of
:03:58. > :04:04.today's China. A virtually unused stadium, designed by one of the
:04:05. > :04:07.Communist Party's biggest critics. How easy is it to be an artist, to
:04:08. > :04:14.be creative, in the circumstances that you find yourself in today?
:04:15. > :04:18.I think artists in these sorts of circumstances have some
:04:19. > :04:36.difficulties, some obstacles, but also have a very special platform.
:04:37. > :04:39.Sometimes it is necessary to deal with matters which are not very
:04:40. > :04:51.normal for an artist. But in Chinese tradition, you do
:04:52. > :05:02.have artists who are under some kind of strange conditions. Such as
:05:03. > :05:08.foreign invasion. Many different dynasties have foreign invasions.
:05:09. > :05:15.Their whole life is making art about it. In a sense you see yourself in
:05:16. > :05:27.that tradition of finding ways to be creative in adversity? Yes, you have
:05:28. > :05:39.to be honest to face the conditions. And to try to find some kind of
:05:40. > :05:43.solution or to live with it. So, your expression has to deal with it.
:05:44. > :05:49.In learning how to deal with it, how important has it been for you to
:05:50. > :05:52.think of your own father? Because you have this history in your
:05:53. > :05:55.family. Your father was a very famous poet in China. During the
:05:56. > :05:59.cultural revolution, Mao's cultural revolution, he was banished to the
:06:00. > :06:06.countryside. Forced into hard Labour. You were a child and you saw
:06:07. > :06:14.all of that. Do you think that experience in a way has helped you
:06:15. > :06:16.to deal with this situation? In the beginning, I never consciously
:06:17. > :06:24.thought I was trying to relate myself to my family back home. But
:06:25. > :06:32.after I was arrested, the first thing that came to my mind was, now
:06:33. > :06:35.I have become the same as my father. Because 80 years earlier, he was
:06:36. > :06:47.arrested by a different party but almost similar accusation.
:06:48. > :06:58.I even told the interrogator, I said, now again we are the same.
:06:59. > :07:01.They told me, no, this time it's different. You talk about thinking
:07:02. > :07:08.of your father when you are put in prison. You spent 81 days locked up.
:07:09. > :07:16.You have talked frankly about how difficult it was. You said you
:07:17. > :07:28.became mad. It's very hard for anyone to bear. I wonder, was that a
:07:29. > :07:32.turning point for you? Seeing the inside of a prison? Yes, to be in
:07:33. > :07:34.that kind of condition, even if you have heard stories about different
:07:35. > :07:38.kinds of treatment from the prisoners, it is very different to
:07:39. > :07:41.really being there. You start to realise your life has been
:07:42. > :07:49.completely cut off from the past, from anything you are familiar with.
:07:50. > :08:07.And every move, every object, it is all foreign to you.
:08:08. > :08:10.All the discipline, the treatment, you cannot use any previous
:08:11. > :08:17.knowledge or wisdom, or even emotions, you can't make any kind of
:08:18. > :08:31.argument. You can't communicate in the same way as you used to do.
:08:32. > :08:54.So, it is very difficult. Were you frightened? It is hard to say you
:08:55. > :09:02.are frightened. I think everybody would be frightened, because such
:09:03. > :09:06.uncertainty... You never know what kind of treatment you will receive
:09:07. > :09:09.and nothing protects you. You have no knowledge. You can't tell
:09:10. > :09:19.anybody, you can't see lawyers, you can't call your family. Everything
:09:20. > :09:22.is so restricted. So, I guess you are threatened. I believe the most
:09:23. > :09:25.terrible thing about that experience is that you know at any moment the
:09:26. > :09:27.authorities could do it to you again. That is the threat that hangs
:09:28. > :09:37.over you. First, you recognise you have
:09:38. > :09:51.absolute no authority, which clearly tells you they don't have to follow
:09:52. > :10:05.the law. They can do what they like. They are outlaws. Then you feel very
:10:06. > :10:08.sad about that, because you are really basically dealing with people
:10:09. > :10:11.who are not rational. Who will never really... Their argument has no
:10:12. > :10:19.logic and you can't really defend yourself. After the release, they
:10:20. > :10:31.clearly tell you they can do it again any time, if they need to do
:10:32. > :10:34.it. They tell you that? I asked them two questions. First, I said, you
:10:35. > :10:39.never explained to me why you arrested me. Second, you never told
:10:40. > :10:43.me why you are releasing me. They hesitated and then said two things.
:10:44. > :10:52.They said, we can arrest you any time we want. We don't ever have to
:10:53. > :10:58.release you again. Let me ask you this. In the middle of the prison
:10:59. > :11:01.experience, or maybe every day of your life, even today, do you think,
:11:02. > :11:09.maybe I should have stayed in America? You were a young artist in
:11:10. > :11:14.New York City. You are making a success of your artistic life. You
:11:15. > :11:23.had freedom. You chose to come back to China and I wonder if there is a
:11:24. > :11:29.part of you that regrets that? Only once in my life I had a moment of
:11:30. > :11:38.regret. That's when they put a hood on my face and secretly took me to
:11:39. > :11:44.this secret location in 2011. To the prison? Yes. I was sitting in a
:11:45. > :11:51.chair. The black hood was still on my head. For hours, nobody came to
:11:52. > :12:02.take it off. I could not see anything. I knew I was in a room but
:12:03. > :12:10.without any noise. So, I thought, how stupid I was not to get an
:12:11. > :12:17.American passport. Sticking with the theme of America. There are those
:12:18. > :12:27.maybe in China particularly who say, Ai Weiwei is an artist who is not
:12:28. > :12:30.really Chinese. He has been so influenced by the United States and
:12:31. > :12:33.the West, he makes art for them. He doesn't make art for Chinese people,
:12:34. > :12:37.that they can relate to or means anything to them. How do you respond
:12:38. > :12:45.to that? I think that kind of assumption is very wrong.
:12:46. > :12:53.My work can't be shown here, so you can tell how my work is related
:12:54. > :13:03.here. That is the strongest argument. I am the only artist in
:13:04. > :13:06.China who can't show my works here. Not only in art galleries, you can't
:13:07. > :13:18.type my works into the Chinese internet. Nobody can share the
:13:19. > :13:23.photos they are taking with me. They would be immediately deleted. So,
:13:24. > :13:25.that is really a strong argument, that my work is designed for this
:13:26. > :14:18.society. Or I'm thinking of the installation
:14:19. > :14:21.you created out of backpacks of children to mark all of those
:14:22. > :14:24.children who were killed in the Sichuan earthquake, when so many
:14:25. > :15:05.schools collapsed. It seems you have a desire to poke the powers that be
:15:06. > :15:09.in China. I would not disagree. As an artist, I do have the intention
:15:10. > :15:12.to question the existence of things and to use my actions to question or
:15:13. > :15:15.give new definitions to make things clear. Does that make you political?
:15:16. > :15:18.Are you political? I think as a result, I would accept people
:15:19. > :15:21.thinking that I'm very political, but that was not my intention. I
:15:22. > :15:38.think if somebody is questioning reality, truths, facts, it always
:15:39. > :15:41.becomes a political act. In the family, between friends, relatives
:15:42. > :15:44.or even the nation, this is clear. So, in a way, it's impossible to
:15:45. > :15:47.separate art and politics, particularly in China today. Yes, I
:15:48. > :15:51.would say that it's impossible for an intellectual or an artist to not
:15:52. > :15:54.ask for the truth or to not associate their creativity with
:15:55. > :16:16.reality or to make some kind of argument which protects freedom of
:16:17. > :16:22.speech, protects human dignity. I think ` how can you avoid it? I
:16:23. > :16:28.really don't think that I have that kind of skill. Do you think there is
:16:29. > :16:30.an irony here, that in a way, you have become more internationally
:16:31. > :16:33.known and famous because of the Chinese government's efforts to
:16:34. > :16:53.control you, to stop you travelling, to monitor you, to have surveillance
:16:54. > :16:56.on you? That this, in a way, has worked against their interests
:16:57. > :17:03.because it has made you more of a symbol throughout the entire world?
:17:04. > :17:11.I think you are right. And in a graphic sense, I also have to try to
:17:12. > :17:19.make them understand. I'm clearly telling them that they are the ones
:17:20. > :17:22.who make me so obvious, famous. You are famous. You have exhibitions all
:17:23. > :17:32.around the world from New York to London and Venice. Everybody wants
:17:33. > :17:43.to see your work. Yeah, I told them this would be a possibility. And
:17:44. > :17:52.they never listened to me. In a sense, they have helped create what
:17:53. > :17:56.you are today. That's true. They have built this large stage for me
:17:57. > :18:02.on which to play and I'm quite shy on this stage but still, this is
:18:03. > :18:05.what they have done. You say that you are quite shy but in a sense,
:18:06. > :18:08.you have embraced the global communications potential that comes
:18:09. > :18:17.with the internet in a way that suggests you are not shy at all.
:18:18. > :18:20.Everything you do now, pretty much your whole life, has become an
:18:21. > :18:30.electronic performance which anybody can see if they have access to the
:18:31. > :18:34.internet. Thanks to the internet, you just have to do very little.
:18:35. > :18:47.Just move your fingertips and everything is communicated. I could
:18:48. > :18:52.never have imagined things would become like they are today because
:18:53. > :18:59.of the internet. How important is the internet to your art and the way
:19:00. > :19:06.you live your life today? Art is my life and without the internet there
:19:07. > :19:09.is no life. I really think the internet is the most precious thing
:19:10. > :19:12.for any individual who wants to express himself or who wants to
:19:13. > :19:27.share his feelings or meanings or concepts with other people. We have
:19:28. > :19:34.talked a lot about freedom and the idea of freedom. In a sense, you are
:19:35. > :19:36.saying that the internet has allowed you an indelible freedom and
:19:37. > :19:41.connection, even though your passport remains in the hands of the
:19:42. > :19:44.police. But how difficult is it for you that you cannot actually now go
:19:45. > :19:59.to places around the world which are putting on exhibitions of your work?
:20:00. > :20:02.If I have freedom, it's freedom. Yes, I can produce some work and
:20:03. > :20:13.bring it to museums or galleries, but I cannot really communicate with
:20:14. > :20:16.people there. I cannot give people explanation in depth about my work,
:20:17. > :20:50.to really answer their questions or even hear their criticism. I see art
:20:51. > :20:53.as a continuous activity. It is not the work that is just finished but
:20:54. > :20:56.the process of communication and how other people become involved in that
:20:57. > :21:00.and continue the discussion. But that has been completely cut off by
:21:01. > :21:03.not allowing me to be there. So, I'm always doing my work halfway. I want
:21:04. > :21:06.to end this interview I having a few thoughts with you about China today.
:21:07. > :21:10.You cannot travel abroad, so maybe you are looking more closely at your
:21:11. > :21:13.own society. You live in Beijing and you can travel around Beijing and
:21:14. > :21:21.you have said some interesting things about it. You say that it
:21:22. > :21:24.makes you unhappy, looking at the people in Beijing, because you can
:21:25. > :21:27.see deadness in the eyes of so many people and you see a complete
:21:28. > :21:30.disconnection between the people, the elite with money and power, and
:21:31. > :21:40.the ordinary people, who live completely disconnected from those
:21:41. > :21:46.in power. It sounds like you are very depressed about your own
:21:47. > :21:49.country. You never enjoy your life if you see young people who never
:21:50. > :22:01.received the full information, who never knew the total truth, who
:22:02. > :22:13.cannot make arguments. There is no passion, no courage or imagination.
:22:14. > :22:19.You will never be satisfied. Your life is ruined if you see... I mean,
:22:20. > :22:23.I have my private car and I have my driver, but if you see a person at a
:22:24. > :22:27.traffic light sitting on a bus and their eyes have no hope in them,
:22:28. > :22:35.they don't want to go to the place where they have to work, this is
:22:36. > :22:45.terrible. I cannot look at it. I think this is not a city you can
:22:46. > :22:49.really enjoy. You can see that there are so many people who have never
:22:50. > :22:52.seen this kind of money they have in the US or in the West, throwing
:22:53. > :23:05.money around so luxuriously and so shamelessly, actually. You see more
:23:06. > :23:09.beautiful cars in Beijing than anywhere else in the world. You know
:23:10. > :23:16.what the party leaders would say to you. They would say that it's easy
:23:17. > :23:21.for you to criticise but we have lifted half a billion people out of
:23:22. > :23:24.poverty. We have over the last 30 years raised this country up and
:23:25. > :23:30.given it a prosperity that the Chinese people could never have
:23:31. > :23:33.dreamt of before. Well, they will never know what people think about
:23:34. > :23:54.them unless they let them have a voice. `` voting ticket. I could be
:23:55. > :23:58.wrong, but just let people for once have a vote. I would shoot off my
:23:59. > :24:01.mouth and I would just paint pretty pictures and, you know, why not? We
:24:02. > :24:04.all have good intentions towards other people. Thank you for being on
:24:05. > :24:45.HARDtalk. The need. If you can think back to
:24:46. > :24:48.last weekend, we enjoyed nice conditions with 20 degrees and
:24:49. > :24:54.sunshine. This weekend will be cooler and breezy with showers. That
:24:55. > :24:57.is what we saw earlier today, and this line of organised rain is
:24:58. > :25:01.moving in from the west overnight. Some gusty winds and rain, sleet,
:25:02. > :25:03.and snow in