:00:00. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. Here at the Bulgarian Embassy in London. My
:00:21. > :00:26.guest today is Bulgaria's President, Rosen Plevneliev. His is one of the
:00:27. > :00:30.EU member states that is most dependent on Russia for energy
:00:31. > :00:34.needs. What did he make of EU moves to toughen sanctions against Moscow
:00:35. > :00:50.over the Crimea crisis? Can the EU afford to get tough with Russia?
:00:51. > :00:58.President Rosen Plevneliev, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Can the
:00:59. > :01:08.European Union really afford to get tough with Russia over Crimea? We
:01:09. > :01:12.have seen a major breach of international law that leads to
:01:13. > :01:24.losing trust. When you lose trust with someone, you need to act. Act
:01:25. > :01:29.in what way? Tougher sanctions? Is that something you would like to see
:01:30. > :01:33.the EU do? Widen the circle of travel bans, asset freezes? I do not
:01:34. > :01:37.think we should be fighting a war, I do not think we should be going back
:01:38. > :01:40.to the Cold War. In the 21st century, such things are impossible.
:01:41. > :01:43.You cannot send your troops, you cannot occupy the territory of an
:01:44. > :01:45.independent state and you cannot organise illegal referendums in
:01:46. > :01:48.order to annex territory in front of the global community, that is
:01:49. > :02:00.impossible. We need to stand to our values and act with a strong voice
:02:01. > :02:05.and clear actions. That is the difficulty though, isn't it? To act
:02:06. > :02:17.with one clear, strong voice. The EU is not getting tough with Russia, is
:02:18. > :02:19.it? The sanctions against Moscow have been described as "pathetic" by
:02:20. > :02:23.the former British Foreign Secretary, Malcolm Rifkind. We are
:02:24. > :02:29.at the beginning of a long process. The game has changed. It has changed
:02:30. > :02:32.for a long time. We have seen an aggressive and nationalistic Russia.
:02:33. > :02:39.The answer is asymmetric but it is steady and clear. We need to have a
:02:40. > :02:43.new policy towards Russia. The head of the Socialist party in Bulgaria
:02:44. > :02:46.says, do not expect Bulgaria to be among the Hawks in the EU, our
:02:47. > :02:49.country has no interest in sanctions against Russia which would be
:02:50. > :03:02.harmful to several Eastern European countries including Bulgaria. Is he
:03:03. > :03:08.right? What we have heard, that is the shape of the European Socialist
:03:09. > :03:12.and the Bulgarian Socialist party. What we have heard is, basically, we
:03:13. > :03:21.do not want to fight the European Union or Russia. I know it is not
:03:22. > :03:26.your party, you are not from the Socialist Party. But just on that
:03:27. > :03:28.point made by the head of the Bulgarian Socialist party, is he
:03:29. > :03:36.right that Bulgaria cannot afford to have tough sanctions against Russia?
:03:37. > :03:39.Your gas supply is 85% from Russia. Economics is one, the other is who
:03:40. > :03:50.you are, what do you represent and what are your values? I represent a
:03:51. > :03:58.nation which is the most pro`European nation in the world. A
:03:59. > :04:04.nation with a vibrant society that wants democracy. This is telling me
:04:05. > :04:07.that we should work and support and we should be fighting for a strong
:04:08. > :04:09.European Union that stands against anyone who is blocking the
:04:10. > :04:24.international rule of law. You want tougher sanctions then? Wider trade
:04:25. > :04:27.economic sanctions, bring in Putin's inner circle on individuals who have
:04:28. > :04:35.been identified for travel bans, you want to see more robust sanctions?
:04:36. > :04:38.Yes or no? I want to see a strong Bulgaria committed to its values of
:04:39. > :04:41.democratic and European development and I want to see a strong European
:04:42. > :04:50.Union that is standing to support the society of Ukraine. To support
:04:51. > :04:58.the peaceful democratic development and I have to tell you very clearly,
:04:59. > :05:05.Crimea is, and will be, Ukrainian. Ukraine will be European. Bulgaria
:05:06. > :05:09.during the Soviet area was one of the countries that was closest to
:05:10. > :05:12.the Soviet Union. You say you want to be good EU citizens, how to you
:05:13. > :05:17.do that as well as managing your relationship with Russia, which of
:05:18. > :05:26.course is very important to you. That is clear but you have moments
:05:27. > :05:30.of history and sometimes you don't. We do face today a moment of history
:05:31. > :05:45.today for us, for our choice and our society, for Europe and the world.
:05:46. > :05:48.What would you think if tomorrow we do have Russian minorities in other
:05:49. > :05:52.countries? We do have them in Estonia. It could be possible that
:05:53. > :05:56.they can call Moscow and Moscow will send troops into other countries? Is
:05:57. > :06:01.that possible? We need to act and it is not just about numbers... You
:06:02. > :06:10.have this condemnation by the fact of the matter it is difficult to act
:06:11. > :06:14.against Russia. Isn't it? Particularly for the EU. Just look
:06:15. > :06:18.at the difference between the EU and the United States in the economic,
:06:19. > :06:21.trade and financial ties. Russian, American trade is about $30 billion
:06:22. > :06:27.a year and the United States only exported about $9 billion worth of
:06:28. > :06:30.goods to Russia. Russia and the European Union, not just energy, the
:06:31. > :06:37.deep ties account for about $400 billion a year. So, the United
:06:38. > :06:44.States can afford to get tough with Russia on sanctions but not be EU.
:06:45. > :06:50.look at the numbers between the EU look at the numbers between the EU
:06:51. > :07:01.and Russia, they are huge. But what we see, what we need is a new
:07:02. > :07:05.policy. What we need to do is to work devotedly to diversify and to
:07:06. > :07:10.make sure that they are dependencies will be used. That will not happen
:07:11. > :07:15.overnight, will it? You get your gas through a pipe from Russia. You have
:07:16. > :07:21.suffered in the past over disputes between Ukraine and Russia. Let me
:07:22. > :07:24.put this to you, the acting Prime Minister in Ukraine, Arseniy
:07:25. > :07:34.Yatsenyuk, has said Crimea is moving from a political government to a
:07:35. > :07:41.military one. Do you see it that way as well? I do not want to see it
:07:42. > :07:45.that way. I hope there will be no war there. The European Union,
:07:46. > :07:48.because of that also, is sentenced to have a strong voice and clear
:07:49. > :07:53.policy that is consistent and that is going to affect and that is going
:07:54. > :08:00.to work. If there is no trust, then investors cannot trust anyone. They
:08:01. > :08:04.will pull their money out. If there is no trust, if the markets are not
:08:05. > :08:15.trusting any more, that might be a problem. If there is no trust, then
:08:16. > :08:20.banks, it is difficult to be refinanced because we do not know
:08:21. > :08:24.and we do not trust. The EU is adapting. Let me give you an example
:08:25. > :08:28.for Bulgaria, what are we going to do. In my country, that will be a
:08:29. > :08:43.process that will move across the whole region. We depend on the gas
:08:44. > :08:46.supply at we want to change that. We will be building gas connectors very
:08:47. > :08:50.quickly. That will take the few years, won't it? Just staying with
:08:51. > :08:53.this military issue that Arseniy Yatsenyuk has raised, Bulgaria is a
:08:54. > :08:59.member of NATO and has taken part in military exercises on the Black Sea.
:09:00. > :09:02.Do you envisage any possibility of NATO asserting itself in these
:09:03. > :09:06.waters to try and warn Russia from future escalation in this conflict?
:09:07. > :09:15.What we need today in south`east Europe, definitely is more NATO. We
:09:16. > :09:26.will be very active by working with our allies to secure our part. That
:09:27. > :09:29.will upset the Russians. They are saying, Ukraine have fallen out with
:09:30. > :09:41.the Soviet Union and become a member of the EU. And also become a member
:09:42. > :09:45.of NATO. President Putin has said in a speech this week, he does not feel
:09:46. > :09:54.that the west in particular understands Russia's mentality.
:09:55. > :09:57.Their national interest. He likened the situation in Crimea to German
:09:58. > :09:59.reunification. Does he have a point that perhaps, the Russians are
:10:00. > :10:10.misunderstood by the Americans, by the EU? Let me give you and other
:10:11. > :10:29.point which is very complimentary to what you just asked. You remember in
:10:30. > :10:32.1993 when Ukraine was a nuclear armed force? And then the treaty
:10:33. > :10:34.powers secured and took their signatures in a special agreement in
:10:35. > :10:40.the press.(CROSSTALK). I am asking you a question. What do you think
:10:41. > :10:45.about India? What you think about Pakistan? How do you feel about
:10:46. > :10:48.other nuclear armed countries? Are they going to work in the future for
:10:49. > :10:51.reducing the nuclear treaty on this planet if we have the example of
:10:52. > :10:54.Ukraine where actually, an agreement was signed and then completely
:10:55. > :10:59.breached? OK. You have made that clear. I want to look at Bulgaria.
:11:00. > :11:04.You are the President of Bulgaria. You do have some limited powers.
:11:05. > :11:18.Frankly, you have been a politician, and a Cabinet minister under the
:11:19. > :11:21.government until 2011. Politicians are very unpopular in Bulgaria,
:11:22. > :11:29.aren't they? Your ratings are very low. Absolutely! Why such a bad
:11:30. > :11:37.reputation? The numbers for me are better than...(CROSSTALK). You are
:11:38. > :11:43.absolutely right. Society today, it demands much more from politicians.
:11:44. > :11:49.Civil society does not trust their political leaders and that is
:11:50. > :11:53.unfortunate, but that is the truth. There were protests in my own
:11:54. > :11:56.country which I have seen as a statement of positivity. Bulgarian
:11:57. > :12:01.civil society sent a very clear message. We would like to see
:12:02. > :12:04.effective institutions that turn to people, we would like to see our
:12:05. > :12:12.state moving into more transparency and predictability. And actually,
:12:13. > :12:17.politicians delayed some of the major reforms. That leads to
:12:18. > :12:28.reducing the trust of people. You can restore that in a very simple
:12:29. > :12:37.way. Do not promise everything. But what you promised, please deliver.
:12:38. > :12:39.Part of the protests that you mentioned that were taking place,
:12:40. > :12:43.Bulgaria is the poorest country in the EU. According to the World Bank,
:12:44. > :12:46.the GDP is 55% below the average EU GDP. Politicians in Bulgaria have
:12:47. > :12:57.failed the people. Successive politicians. We need to work hard. I
:12:58. > :13:02.am sure that Bulgaria is on the right track. We have seen some
:13:03. > :13:06.results. You cannot change today or tomorrow but we are on the right
:13:07. > :13:09.track. The problem is every new government that comes in and says, I
:13:10. > :13:18.am shifting priorities and changing everything because I am smart and I
:13:19. > :13:23.want to do many things. You also have corruption which is a big
:13:24. > :13:27.issue. 82% of Bulgarians believe there is corruption in public
:13:28. > :13:39.institutions. And that corruption cases are not pursued vigorously
:13:40. > :13:43.enough. Mark Gray in Brussels said in
:13:44. > :13:50.January: What we have seen in Bulgaria in the last eight years are
:13:51. > :13:53.steps in place, but we see the lack of people being brought to justice.
:13:54. > :13:56.Failing to put people behind bars. That is what the EU is saying now.
:13:57. > :14:02.Corruption is a live issue you have failed to tackle properly. We are
:14:03. > :14:05.addressing it clearly. If you look at the numbers, what the EU Court
:14:06. > :14:18.issued, with its statistics in 2013, you will see Bulgeria is more
:14:19. > :14:30.effective. We see them coming to the country. We see that the mechanism
:14:31. > :14:38.in the European communion is an effective tool to improve and
:14:39. > :14:44.reform. It won't happen today or tomorrow, but we do have an
:14:45. > :14:46.improvement. If you look at the worst statistics, published two
:14:47. > :14:53.weeks ago, you will see corruption is a major problem all over the
:14:54. > :15:00.world. You score at the bottom of the rankings in the EU. Why are you
:15:01. > :15:02.so corrupt? Is that linked to the poverty in Bulgeria? High
:15:03. > :15:05.unemployment, people who leave Bulgeria because they want to find
:15:06. > :15:12.better opportunities elsewhere ` what is it about your country that
:15:13. > :15:21.has put it in this plight? The way you fight corruption is simple. I am
:15:22. > :15:36.pushing it from day one of becoming President. That is, open government
:15:37. > :15:40.policies. Nothing to hide in regards to public money. We should stick to
:15:41. > :15:42.this plan and in 2015 you will see a difference. You have countries in
:15:43. > :15:45.the EU, France, the Netherlands, Germany, saying we don't want
:15:46. > :15:48.Bulgeria to become part of the Schengen visa`free travel agreement.
:15:49. > :15:52.They say they are not sure you can manage your borders and they are
:15:53. > :16:10.worried about corruption. That is a big problem. We will see Bulgeria, I
:16:11. > :16:13.hope soon. In a two`phase plan. We are working, based on restrictions
:16:14. > :16:25.and rules in the area, and all requirements have been met. I'm sure
:16:26. > :16:28.about that. Are you sure? The Foreign Minister of France said
:16:29. > :16:31.Bulgeria is not able to secure its borders with non` EU members, for
:16:32. > :16:37.instance with Turkey, and should be barred from entering the zone. They
:16:38. > :16:42.are not favourable to this and there is a lot of work to be done. He's
:16:43. > :16:47.not as optimistic. The numbers show a different situation. They show we
:16:48. > :16:51.are keeping the borders with non` EU members, e.g. Turkey, in a much
:16:52. > :17:05.better shape than other European countries. We would like this to be
:17:06. > :17:09.acknowledged. You say that, but let me give you an example. You have a
:17:10. > :17:12.border with Turkey and they have a border with Syria and the influx of
:17:13. > :17:15.refugees from Syria entering Bulgeria via Turkey has gone up by
:17:16. > :17:18.1000 and you now have something like 9000. We do have 10,000 in Bulgeria.
:17:19. > :17:21.The numbers have gone up dramatically. We have hundreds of
:17:22. > :17:26.thousands through other EU state borders. If you look at the numbers
:17:27. > :17:37.again, we are performing much better than many other European states. The
:17:38. > :17:41.issue of Syrian refugees in Bulgeria is related to the issue with the way
:17:42. > :17:44.they have been treated in Bulgeria and you know the EU High Commission
:17:45. > :17:50.for refugees had said you are not treating them very well. It is
:17:51. > :17:52.saying that they are kept in deplorable conditions. Asylum
:17:53. > :17:55.seekers, not just Syrians, lack access to basic services such as
:17:56. > :17:57.food, healthcare, lengthy delays in registration, are deprived of basic
:17:58. > :18:16.rights and are at risk of arbitrary detention. One I read that report
:18:17. > :18:19.carefully. After the first days and weeks of this wave of Syrian
:18:20. > :18:25.refugees entering, those were the facts and that was the truth. But,
:18:26. > :18:28.it has improved. We were surprised in the beginning, by having 20`30
:18:29. > :18:40.refugees per month, and then we had 1,000`2,000 per month. That was a
:18:41. > :18:43.wave we weren't prepared for. If you look at the latest report, issued a
:18:44. > :18:50.week ago, the same institution with their signature, is writing about
:18:51. > :18:53.improvement. Your message is that we are improving. And, we should enter
:18:54. > :18:56.the visa`free travel agreement. But, the way foreigners are treated in
:18:57. > :18:58.Bulgeria raises an issue for you, particularly when the Bulgarian
:18:59. > :19:01.government criticises the way Bulgarian citizens are treated in
:19:02. > :19:14.the EU, where, in popular media, reports of them are that they are
:19:15. > :19:21.coming to enjoy welfare benefits. You complain about that. And yet,
:19:22. > :19:34.you do see the rather ugly side to anti`foreigner actions in your own
:19:35. > :19:36.country. We saw a mosque being attacked, which you have condemned.
:19:37. > :19:45.Attacks on Asians and Africans in this past winter. That should really
:19:46. > :19:47.worry you. What is worrying me is that those things happened before
:19:48. > :19:59.elections. There will be political views in order to make someone
:20:00. > :20:01.important. Someone who is playing with people's fears. Someone who is
:20:02. > :20:05.showing a nationalistic approach. That, to me, is not patriotic. I am
:20:06. > :20:07.coming to the point, the President of France said something very
:20:08. > :20:10.important, for Europe and for Russia, he said, patriots are those
:20:11. > :20:17.who love their country, nationalists are those who hate the different.
:20:18. > :20:19.That is what is happening. A member of the Equal Opportunities
:20:20. > :20:21.Initiative in the capital of Bulgeria, Sofia, says that
:20:22. > :20:27.nationalism is on the rise in Bulgeria. Absolutely I agree with
:20:28. > :20:30.this. I am truly surprised how quickly that happens, because, a
:20:31. > :20:43.year or two ago, we did not face such a situation. Bulgarians are
:20:44. > :20:46.very tolerant people. We are so proud that we represent a tolerant
:20:47. > :20:51.nation, which was the only one that saved, in 1943, its entire Jewish
:20:52. > :20:54.population. Now we have, in the latest month and year, a negative
:20:55. > :21:01.development by having nationalism on the rise. It is not just Bulgeria,
:21:02. > :21:08.many other European countries. We see them on the march in the EU. How
:21:09. > :21:13.do you fight them? It is through patriotism, not nationalism. That
:21:14. > :21:16.means the devotion of all of us to stick with our views, work day and
:21:17. > :21:25.night, remain tolerant and not play with people's fears. We see the same
:21:26. > :21:28.scenario all over Europe. But, until you sort this problem out, it will
:21:29. > :21:31.undermine your comments and those of the government when they say, we
:21:32. > :21:34.think that Bulgarian citizens in the EU union are being unfairly
:21:35. > :21:37.targeted. What we see in Europe is a campaign that was based on the same
:21:38. > :21:51.way we see nationalism in Bulgeria working. They target Syrian refugees
:21:52. > :21:53.in the same way as we have seen organised campaigns against
:21:54. > :22:15.Bulgarians, Romanians, Slovakians, in different countries. The numbers
:22:16. > :22:30.tell for themselves. In Germany, they have a problem with Bulgarians
:22:31. > :22:43.Romas. Bulgarian citizens in Germany are unemployed at 7.4%. The Germans
:22:44. > :22:46.are unemployed 7.7%. That tells me that Bulgarians in Germany run
:22:47. > :22:48.better and perform better than the Germans in Germany, based on
:22:49. > :22:52.education and employment. The OECD has said there is a rapid decline in
:22:53. > :22:54.Bulgeria's population and a third of that is because of international
:22:55. > :22:58.emigration, from looking at the figures of the last two years. When
:22:59. > :23:01.are you going to see a future for your own people to stay in their own
:23:02. > :23:12.country and enjoy peace and prosperity? In the next years, I'm
:23:13. > :23:16.sure the wave of Bulgarians moving back to my country will be coming. I
:23:17. > :23:21.talk to them wherever they are going in the world. As president, the
:23:22. > :23:26.first thing I do is speak to them. I was in Qatar a week ago. Do you
:23:27. > :23:31.think people from Britain will go back to have a better life that? We
:23:32. > :23:36.saw already, I was in Germany, and we had 400 engineers moving back. An
:23:37. > :23:40.objective process that has happened in all the other EU countries, and
:23:41. > :23:43.we are now right in the middle of this process, we are moving in the
:23:44. > :23:46.right direction, improving on the ground in terms of democracy,
:23:47. > :23:57.infrastructure, rule of law, and they will come back. Rosen
:23:58. > :24:27.Plevneliev, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:28. > :24:36.It is turning much colder. Still fairly mild and wet. The mild air is
:24:37. > :24:43.being pushed away. The blue colour is taking hold of the map and the
:24:44. > :24:44.cold air will be in place through the weekend. Temperatures start the