:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. There is a new ballet under production about one of
:00:20. > :00:23.the bloodiest conflicts in the 20th century. It is the idea of Tamara
:00:24. > :00:26.Rojo. She grew up in Spain, made her dancing career in Britain and is now
:00:27. > :00:29.Artistic Director and Lead Principal at the English National Ballet. This
:00:30. > :00:32.performance at the Barbican is an attempt to do something different at
:00:33. > :00:38.what is usually a conservative ballet. With some of the stars
:00:39. > :00:40.arguing that ballet should be tough, and a new generation of dancers who
:00:41. > :00:43.have gone through a demanding training in Japan and China
:00:44. > :01:10.beginning to flourish, can Tamara Rojo triumph over tradition?
:01:11. > :01:15.Tamara Rojo, welcome to the programme. Tell me about your
:01:16. > :01:17.journey from a child Spain to becoming the Artistic Director and
:01:18. > :01:26.Lead Principlal at the English Natonal Ballet. It has to do a lot
:01:27. > :01:30.with luck. You have to be at the right place at the right time. In
:01:31. > :01:40.Madrid, I did not know what a ballet performance looked like. They would
:01:41. > :01:48.allow television to show ballet from a youth company and I decided that I
:01:49. > :01:57.wanted to study with them. That was the beginning of my good luck, to
:01:58. > :02:00.stumble into this amazing school. Then, when I was 19, I went to an
:02:01. > :02:04.international ballet competition in Paris and from that I got my first
:02:05. > :02:12.contract in Britain which was in Scotland, in Glasgow. When I was
:02:13. > :02:15.doing Romeo and Juliet there the director of the English Natonal
:02:16. > :02:17.Ballet saw me, and offered me a contract with the English Natonal
:02:18. > :02:24.Ballet because he was about to create his own Romeo and Juliet.
:02:25. > :02:27.Then I came to London and had three wonderful years and then moved to
:02:28. > :02:37.the Ballet, were I was for 20 years and then I decided to go back to the
:02:38. > :02:41.English Natonal Ballet. I took the directorship. This is a different
:02:42. > :02:44.role to take on compared to your previous one. You are still dancing
:02:45. > :02:48.as well. This production, lest we forget, the First World War that
:02:49. > :02:54.scarred Europe is kind of everywhere at the moment. Was it just
:02:55. > :02:57.topicality at the moment alone, or did you think it would be a good
:02:58. > :03:10.subject for ballet for other reasons? It was very much to do with
:03:11. > :03:13.what I have learned in my 17 years in Britain. It is about how
:03:14. > :03:16.important this war is for the British psyche, how it is still
:03:17. > :03:22.moving and disturbing in some ways, how many questions have been
:03:23. > :03:27.unanswered. I was not just trying to do it because everybody else is
:03:28. > :03:39.doing it. The fact that so many people are doing it is not a plus
:03:40. > :03:43.really. I wish it was just us. It is such a big subject. We could look at
:03:44. > :03:46.the politics of war but it is the emotional weight, the emotional
:03:47. > :03:50.value of a war that is more difficult to convey. That is where
:03:51. > :03:53.dance can really be at its best. We are incredible with emotions. We can
:03:54. > :04:09.really convey the loss and be true sense of the personal drama. It is
:04:10. > :04:18.sometimes forgotten, especially by a focus on the politics. What is the
:04:19. > :04:22.cost for each individual? It is a story of a generation of men
:04:23. > :04:25.perishing in the trenches. You have decided to increase the position of
:04:26. > :04:31.women in ballet so people might find the subject matter rather a
:04:32. > :04:35.difficult choice. World War I was very important for women, they took
:04:36. > :04:38.the role of men in factories and they took over the agriculture and
:04:39. > :04:47.all of the responsibilities and the jobs of men. A lot of what you will
:04:48. > :04:53.see on the stage is about the change of the role of women. That was also
:04:54. > :04:57.incredibly important. You have said in one interview that your message
:04:58. > :05:05.to the audience is that I need you to see the choreographers of today.
:05:06. > :05:14.There are four choreographers and they are all men. They are. I did
:05:15. > :05:18.approach a couple of women, especially one for this project, but
:05:19. > :05:22.she was expecting a baby so that was good news for her but bad news for
:05:23. > :05:25.me. In this case, I also wanted to work with the men that I considered
:05:26. > :05:28.to be the most important choreographers in Britain. I wanted
:05:29. > :05:31.them all to be based here because I really wanted this angle of
:05:32. > :05:50.approach. I wanted the British angle about the war. You said last summer
:05:51. > :05:54.that there are some issues that you would like to see approached by
:05:55. > :05:56.women on the stage. Very often we see relationships approach from a
:05:57. > :05:59.male perspective. Like in pornography, it shifts were you look
:06:00. > :06:08.at things and women and men have different sensibilities. Quite often
:06:09. > :06:20.what you see in choreography in women is that the first thing they
:06:21. > :06:23.discuss is the emotional context. What is the situation here? Who are
:06:24. > :06:27.you in relationship to me emotionally? With men we tend to
:06:28. > :06:34.focus on the language, their vocabulary and identity as
:06:35. > :06:39.choreographers tends to come first. It is different. It is not better or
:06:40. > :06:44.worse, but different. It would be good if we could see more often
:06:45. > :06:47.other ways of working. Do you think that the lack of a female vision in
:06:48. > :06:51.ballet and more obviously at the moment might be one of the factors
:06:52. > :06:54.about why ballet schools are reporting plenty of boys wanting to
:06:55. > :07:09.dance but they're struggling to find as many girls as they used to? It is
:07:10. > :07:12.a strange thing. It also has to do with role models. Carlos Acosta had
:07:13. > :07:15.a huge influence and Billy Elliot as well, both the movie and the
:07:16. > :07:18.musical. This is a totally unlikely situation for a ballet star, a
:07:19. > :07:29.mining town, and he becomes a dance star. Those models meant that little
:07:30. > :07:32.boys were not embarrassed to say that they wanted to be a ballet
:07:33. > :07:51.dancer and their perceived it as something that they were allowed to
:07:52. > :07:55.dream about. Somehow, we have not had these kind of role models as
:07:56. > :07:58.strongly in terms of female roles in ballet. I think that there are very
:07:59. > :08:01.strong role models in the pop industry and in the fashion
:08:02. > :08:03.industry, and girls tend to choose those jobs now. They want to be
:08:04. > :08:07.singers and television personalities. Ballet does not have
:08:08. > :08:10.its own Lady Gaga. We do not and it is a profession which is very about
:08:11. > :08:13.much dedication, a profession where you cannot make it just of luck or
:08:14. > :08:23.by saying something witty once in awhile. If what you want to pursue
:08:24. > :08:36.celebrity fame and fortune, you will not find this through ballet. You'll
:08:37. > :08:41.find something a lot more rewarding but it will also demand a lot more
:08:42. > :08:45.from you. I think that maybe today we give a lot of value to celebrity
:08:46. > :08:53.and wealth and that is where ballet cannot compete. If we went back to
:08:54. > :08:56.more important values, about dedication and the amazing award
:08:57. > :09:06.that comes from something you have fought for to gain, then ballet
:09:07. > :09:09.wins. You talk about dedication. There has been a lot of debate about
:09:10. > :09:12.the pressures that are on women dancers. About 6% of women in the
:09:13. > :09:17.general population have eating disorders. According to a doctor who
:09:18. > :09:28.works with dancers, it is three times that rate. Did you have to
:09:29. > :09:33.struggle with it as a young dancer? Very much so. From a very early age,
:09:34. > :09:36.as soon as I hit puberty, I was very much aware that these changes were
:09:37. > :09:50.not welcome and that I had to try and control my body and make it stay
:09:51. > :09:53.in a prepubescent shape. That was an incredible struggle for me. The
:09:54. > :09:57.worst thing that happens ` at least it used to happen and I was young `
:09:58. > :10:09.this was done with no tools or information. I am very hopeful that
:10:10. > :10:15.it is not the case any more. It made me miserable. It took away so much
:10:16. > :10:19.of the joy of dancing that it was not really worth it. I have seen
:10:20. > :10:26.people lose the joy of dancing because of this pressure. This
:10:27. > :10:35.fashion for ultra`thin ballerinas was very much something in the 1980s
:10:36. > :10:38.and 1990s. This is not the case now. The schools are more aware of giving
:10:39. > :10:41.nutritional advice and in the English Natonal Ballet we have
:10:42. > :10:54.professionals to help those who have any problem. I have always made very
:10:55. > :10:57.clear that it is not for me an issue that makes or breaks a ballerina.
:10:58. > :11:04.I'm not interested, I just want people with talent. You talk about
:11:05. > :11:07.professional advice and you're saying that you're trying to bring
:11:08. > :11:12.that approach to the English Natonal Ballet. An expert employed by you
:11:13. > :11:15.and other dance companies has said that in ballet there are problems
:11:16. > :11:18.with eating disorders and people get scared and they say they do not want
:11:19. > :11:26.it has been kept very quiet. Part of it has been kept very quiet. Part of
:11:27. > :11:29.the reason for that fear is that they are afraid if they reveal
:11:30. > :11:32.things in that kind of situation, they will somehow go back to the
:11:33. > :11:39.people in charge and suddenly they will not get good roles any more. Is
:11:40. > :11:44.that a real fear? It is a reasonable fear. I am hoping that it has a lot
:11:45. > :11:54.to do with the culture of an organisation. I'm hoping that in the
:11:55. > :12:02.English Natonal Ballet we have an open culture so that there is no
:12:03. > :12:04.fear about that. They know that they can talk to these professionals
:12:05. > :12:13.completely anonymously and that it will never get back to me or to the
:12:14. > :12:17.sport psychologist. It is something that you need to give time for
:12:18. > :12:19.dancers to realise that there is no consequence about having a problem,
:12:20. > :12:35.whether it is drugs or alcohol, stage fear, food. You talk about
:12:36. > :12:36.culture. It is quite an important point. We had a series of stories
:12:37. > :12:39.such as the attack at the Bolshoi such as the attack at the Bolshoi
:12:40. > :12:42.Ballet, acid being thrown in people's eyes, which exposed a
:12:43. > :12:54.culture of fear, rivalry, and aggression. We had the criticism
:12:55. > :13:07.from a ballerina at La Scala and the pressure she said that people were
:13:08. > :13:10.under and experiencing anorexia. She was sacked but then there was a
:13:11. > :13:18.backlash accusing people of a campaign against the dance world in
:13:19. > :13:21.general. Is this a profession where people feel that they have to keep
:13:22. > :13:24.things within themselves, that it is disloyal somehow to ballet to talk
:13:25. > :13:27.about this? I am not sure. I am aware that very often when
:13:28. > :13:31.ballerinas retire the focus is so much on what they had to sacrifice `
:13:32. > :13:33.the pain and the blisters, the injuries, and it becomes so
:13:34. > :13:49.horrendous that you question about why you did it in the first place.
:13:50. > :13:52.We never spend any time talking about the joy and the huge
:13:53. > :14:01.satisfaction that being a ballet dancer gives you. However, if there
:14:02. > :14:12.are serious issues, then it is only right that the dancers should speak
:14:13. > :14:20.up. Do you think that ballet dancers work too hard? It depends. Some
:14:21. > :14:25.companies never have time to rehearse. The dancers get injured
:14:26. > :14:35.all the time. Others plan it better. It is a question of, where do you
:14:36. > :14:39.choose to work? You work six days a week until after nine o'clock. Maybe
:14:40. > :14:46.that is a good example. That is true. I am a workaholic. I am doing
:14:47. > :14:54.two jobs. I am doing something that I was very aware was going to happen
:14:55. > :15:05.and is for a limited amount of time. That is interesting. As part of your
:15:06. > :15:08.working day break off from the office even when not involved in a
:15:09. > :15:11.production and you go and rehearse an exercise with the dancers. I do
:15:12. > :15:15.class every day with the dancers. I have meetings and even if I have to
:15:16. > :15:24.come back to the theatre, I come back to the theatre. I understand
:15:25. > :15:36.that my work is very broad. But I think it works for us. I am so much
:15:37. > :15:42.in touch with what they are going through. That is important when you
:15:43. > :15:45.are changing an organisation. I am making some changes in terms of the
:15:46. > :15:48.repertoire. I need to understand how they are feeling and how it is
:15:49. > :15:52.translating into their bodies. How they are coping. Can I go up another
:15:53. > :15:59.gear or do they have to stop there? Let them do just what they are doing
:16:00. > :16:03.and wait to push them. You say you know it will only be for a certain
:16:04. > :16:08.amount of time that you will be juggling two jobs. Have you met a
:16:09. > :16:16.decision when you will retire? I have. Can you tell us? No. I do not
:16:17. > :16:23.want to do a big farewell. I just want to allow other ballerinas in my
:16:24. > :16:27.company to have the spotlight. Once I think they are in that place where
:16:28. > :16:37.they do not need my name to sell tickets, I will move into the
:16:38. > :16:43.office. We talked a bit about taking some of the pressure off dancers.
:16:44. > :16:46.But some people think that maybe this generation is getting easier
:16:47. > :16:49.than it should. One newspaper was told, kids are always distracted
:16:50. > :17:03.nowadays and the new generation, the passion and commitment has
:17:04. > :17:06.diminished. Things have to be easy and ballet
:17:07. > :17:24.Should it be? It is not easy. He has a point on concentrating on one
:17:25. > :17:27.thing and only one thing at a time. Today, not only the kids, but
:17:28. > :17:30.because they have borne with technology, they are used to doing
:17:31. > :17:33.so many things. Sometimes the people that joined the company have
:17:34. > :17:36.difficulty concentrating on one task and finishing. That is true. But
:17:37. > :17:43.that is something we will find everywhere. It is going to be more
:17:44. > :17:46.difficult to achieve that level of perfection in one particular skill
:17:47. > :17:57.if you are not able to dedicate the hours and interest. He mentioned the
:17:58. > :18:00.repertoire, choreographers. This approach of bringing in
:18:01. > :18:02.choreographers who have not got a ballet background. You said in one
:18:03. > :18:06.interview that for you performing in this has been a sense of dancing and
:18:07. > :18:25.then suddenly having to push my centre of gravity into my pelvis. Is
:18:26. > :18:34.it that different? It is very different. His language is
:18:35. > :18:38.contemporary. The centre of gravity is so much lower. The placement of
:18:39. > :18:49.your whole body and a skeleton is so different. Everything is about
:18:50. > :18:52.projecting. With them it is more intimate and about the inside. There
:18:53. > :18:58.is a huge shift physically and technically. But it is interesting.
:18:59. > :19:01.The fact that he comes from a classical tradition as well means
:19:02. > :19:13.that in ways that are unexpected we have so much in common. That
:19:14. > :19:17.approach to protectionism. One head is only one way. There is no two
:19:18. > :19:34.ways about it. I was not expecting that level of detail. He certainly
:19:35. > :19:39.has it. Is it ballet? I do not see the limitations. It is dance. And
:19:40. > :19:48.that is what interests me. Ballet has always progressed when it has
:19:49. > :19:51.absorbed other ways of dancing. The only reason why Paris Opera became
:19:52. > :19:56.more interesting is that when they moved to Russia they absorbed the
:19:57. > :20:00.traditional dancers. When they moved to Denmark, the absorbed. The fact
:20:01. > :20:03.that ballet is able to absorb the dancers and refine it to the
:20:04. > :20:15.absolute maximum of what you can do and enriches the art form. I do not
:20:16. > :20:20.see the limitations. You were talking about coming in with new
:20:21. > :20:34.traditions. Some of the contemporaries are frustrated by the
:20:35. > :20:37.old schedules. I would like to retire the classical version of Swan
:20:38. > :20:42.Lake so companies have more room for new work. I would not. I can
:20:43. > :20:45.understand why he feels that we need to maybe balance more the level of
:20:46. > :20:56.classical ballet and other repertoire. The one thing that I
:20:57. > :20:59.keep remembering is that those classical ballet performances are
:21:00. > :21:10.the first step into the art form for most people. 85% of the people who
:21:11. > :21:16.come to see the Nutcracker is the first time they have come to see
:21:17. > :21:20.ballet. That makes me think that what my job is that once they come
:21:21. > :21:23.for the first time, is to be able to get them interested in coming again
:21:24. > :21:29.to something different and then something else different. If I
:21:30. > :21:34.retire those they would not come at all. That is why I am not confident
:21:35. > :21:46.happy with the concept of retiring them. Also because there is still
:21:47. > :21:49.Mozart, still the classic. They are still the main way that ballerinas
:21:50. > :22:00.and ballet dancers can achieve those steps that make you become a dancer.
:22:01. > :22:06.You are not worried that they crowd out the other potential of new work?
:22:07. > :22:14.In a company like yours, it is not wealthy, it relies people on pain to
:22:15. > :22:20.come and see shows. That almost forces you to keep people coming
:22:21. > :22:23.again and again. It forces people, but it also allows me to spend money
:22:24. > :22:35.on something interesting. Nutcracker funds the rest of the season. It is
:22:36. > :22:38.give and take. I have to live with the fact that I would prefer not to
:22:39. > :22:45.do 40 Nutcrackers, but 20. But the extra 20 allow me to do Lest We
:22:46. > :23:00.Forget. One person said classical dancers always spend years with the
:23:01. > :23:03.company. And artistic director imagined that long years of training
:23:04. > :23:11.would allow them to tread their current narrow treadmill. That is
:23:12. > :23:25.not the case anymore. All of the choreographers, that is not a narrow
:23:26. > :23:29.treadmill. It is really wide. Let us not forget that it is the repetitive
:23:30. > :23:34.number of shows is what gives me the opportunity to take chances with
:23:35. > :23:37.younger dancers. In companies where you only have 12 Nutcracker
:23:38. > :23:43.performances, you only see the principal dancers. When you have 40,
:23:44. > :23:51.you will see the principles and be able to give opportunities to young
:23:52. > :23:54.dancers. That means dancers that come from the school are very
:23:55. > :24:04.capable to be a principal dancer rather than within a decade. ``
:24:05. > :24:10.within four years. Believe me, it makes a huge amount of difference.
:24:11. > :24:13.And you know from your own experience. I do. Thank you for
:24:14. > :24:49.joining us on HARDtalk. . This year, we were just coming to
:24:50. > :24:50.the end of the might on record. This time