:00:00. > :00:22.Welcome to HARDtalk. More than 500 supporters of Mohammed Morsi were
:00:23. > :00:25.sentenced to death this week. It is the latest crackdown on the Muslim
:00:26. > :00:30.Brotherhood, banned under the country 's new constitution. My
:00:31. > :00:35.guest today is the newly elected leader of a party founded to save
:00:36. > :00:40.the revolution of three years ago. Hala Shukrallah is the first female
:00:41. > :00:45.leader of a political party in Egypt and the first question. But in a
:00:46. > :00:49.party polarised between the military and Islamist, the liberal secular
:00:50. > :00:50.opposition has struggled to get support. Does Egypt deserve a better
:00:51. > :01:18.position? Hala Shukrallah, President of the
:01:19. > :01:27.Constitution Party of Egypt, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much
:01:28. > :01:30.hundreds of people sentenced to death after a trial that lasted just
:01:31. > :01:42.two days. What are your thoughts on that judgement? It is pretty
:01:43. > :01:48.shocking. Regardless of whether it is being passed on a violent group
:01:49. > :02:03.that we know have been involved in the burning of churches and shops of
:02:04. > :02:09.Christians and so on. The whole death scene has been incredibly
:02:10. > :02:17.draining and pretty horrendous and daunting for any kind of democratic
:02:18. > :02:23.force or alternative. Who do you blame for the fact that we are in
:02:24. > :02:39.this situation where that many get the death penalty? Who do you blame
:02:40. > :02:44.for that? It is not one person. You cannot blame one institutional party
:02:45. > :02:51.or a group of people. It is a whole environment that feeds on each
:02:52. > :02:57.other. It is a violent, and that breeds more violence, and the way
:02:58. > :03:03.that the political scene is being led, continues to create that cycle.
:03:04. > :03:13.We know that the Muslim Brotherhood are a violent group, that they use
:03:14. > :03:17.violence as a force of change. They use it as a way of reaching their
:03:18. > :03:25.own objectives and their own projects of the country. But the way
:03:26. > :03:34.that they are also being addressed and is targeted, in a very sweeping
:03:35. > :03:42.way, I think broadens that kind of environment and continues to lead us
:03:43. > :03:48.into a cycle that is not look like it will end very soon. I will be
:03:49. > :03:52.blaming a lot of people. I will be blaming the institutions that
:03:53. > :03:57.exist, the security institutions that exist, the state institutions,
:03:58. > :04:03.and I would also blame the Muslim Brotherhood, regardless of the fact
:04:04. > :04:09.that they are incarcerated, many of them are incarcerated. They have put
:04:10. > :04:14.an extremely dangerous strategy forward and they have not been able
:04:15. > :04:26.to back down from it at all. They continue to wield the threat that
:04:27. > :04:31.they are going to lead Egypt into an inferno. This inflames people 's
:04:32. > :04:38.feelings more and more and pushes us, as democratic forces, into a
:04:39. > :04:41.corner. You told us this month that you would not sit at the same table
:04:42. > :04:44.to talk with the Muslim Brotherhood. You said that it would
:04:45. > :04:50.not happen until they are punished for their actions and that those
:04:51. > :04:56.implicated in the acts of violence are seriously punished. We are
:04:57. > :05:02.talking about this kind of thing? Definitely not. What we are talking
:05:03. > :05:10.about? I believe that everyone should be punished to the degree of
:05:11. > :05:15.the crime. Definitely 500 would not have been involved in the murder of
:05:16. > :05:21.one or two people. Punishment for the burning of shops of Christians,
:05:22. > :05:27.that has a specific sentence. I am sure that is the same in your
:05:28. > :05:33.country. The discourse of hate has its own punishment. Incitement to
:05:34. > :05:40.violence has its own punishment. There has to be some kind of
:05:41. > :05:48.graduation or progression of the kind of punishment that you meet out
:05:49. > :05:56.for different crimes. It is not a blanket sentence. I do think that
:05:57. > :06:11.they should be held accountable. Should they be banned? Any kind of
:06:12. > :06:17.organisation that uses religion and hate discourse as a way of behaving
:06:18. > :06:27.should definitely have a lot of regulations that they should be
:06:28. > :06:33.subject to. The new constitution, I support many things in it but others
:06:34. > :06:36.I do not. The fact that it treats the Muslim Brotherhood is a
:06:37. > :06:41.terrorist organisation, that is the right way to deal with them is its?
:06:42. > :06:49.I believe they are a terrorist organisation. Whether it is the
:06:50. > :06:52.right way to deal with them solely in a security fashion, that is
:06:53. > :07:04.something else. I think they should be dealt with in a specifically...
:07:05. > :07:13.Through discourse. That is what uncovered them. That was during
:07:14. > :07:19.their year of rule, they were totally uncovered, their whole
:07:20. > :07:25.discourse was very clear and very flagrant and that is what brought
:07:26. > :07:32.them down. That is the way any kind of political solution should be
:07:33. > :07:36.done. When you look at what has happened since the overthrow of
:07:37. > :07:43.Mohammed Morsi, who was in a critical elected, but that overthrow
:07:44. > :07:46.of which your party was part, and the founder of your party then took
:07:47. > :07:53.part in the government that took over from President Mohammed Morsi,
:07:54. > :07:57.when you have seen what has happened since have you not thought that it
:07:58. > :08:04.was a mistake? Should you not have gone about it in a different way?
:08:05. > :08:08.The 30th of June was not a mistake. What I would have hoped to have
:08:09. > :08:14.happened was that Mohammed Morsi would have stepped down. He should
:08:15. > :08:19.have conceded to the people 's will. It would have created a completely
:08:20. > :08:30.different path. Even if months before that he would have sat down,
:08:31. > :08:35.as the democratic forces asked him to do, and talk through the policies
:08:36. > :08:43.that he was acting and enforcing them that would have completely
:08:44. > :08:48.directed us in a different way. We would not have been where we are
:08:49. > :08:54.now. The head of the army is widely expected to stand in these
:08:55. > :09:00.elections. You are Coptic and your own Pope says that he has a national
:09:01. > :09:04.duty to stand because Egyptians see him as a saviour and a hero. It is
:09:05. > :09:09.expected he will stand and win. What you think about that, that your
:09:10. > :09:17.future president is likely to be the current head of the army? I do not
:09:18. > :09:25.follow my Pope, I do not follow anyone. My opinions are my own. What
:09:26. > :09:32.I feelings towards him winning the election? I have stated that opinion
:09:33. > :09:40.over and over again on Egyptian television and in newspapers. I am
:09:41. > :09:45.not supportive of military persons entering the political arena will
:09:46. > :09:50.stop I am for somebody from the democratic camp, definitely this
:09:51. > :09:57.would be my choice and it would be whom I party would support `` whom I
:09:58. > :10:05.party would support. We are fighting for democratic rule in Egypt. Can I
:10:06. > :10:11.be clear here. You are saying if he is elected, that is not the
:10:12. > :10:15.democratic process? I think it would endanger the democratic process and
:10:16. > :10:20.that is what I have been saying. Anyone who comes from a state
:10:21. > :10:28.institution with the weight of the army, with the level of power, there
:10:29. > :10:41.is a danger that he comes in supported by that institution and
:10:42. > :10:50.backed by its support. It does not mean that there is an equal chance
:10:51. > :10:55.for another nominee. You are speaking about a compromise of the
:10:56. > :11:00.democratic process. You talk about if the military when is it infringes
:11:01. > :11:06.the democratic process and then the Muslim Brotherhood, who you
:11:07. > :11:12.described as terrorists, but there is an opposition and people are not
:11:13. > :11:19.choosing to go with parties like yours. And that is why some analysts
:11:20. > :11:26.say that Egypt deserves a better position the new and you do not
:11:27. > :11:36.mobilise the people. There needs to be spine from parties like yours. I
:11:37. > :11:40.am sure that is correct in one way. It is a correct way of analysing the
:11:41. > :11:44.situation but you have to understand that we are a new party. We are one
:11:45. > :11:54.and a half years old and we have already been dealt with these
:11:55. > :11:58.incredible changes. From the minute that I have been in this position,
:11:59. > :12:02.these are the challenges that we are facing. You facing the challenge of
:12:03. > :12:10.becoming a party that is connected to the people, that engages with the
:12:11. > :12:12.issues that most concern the people, that mobilises them, that becomes
:12:13. > :12:23.part of these battles, the daily battles of people. You accept that.
:12:24. > :12:29.A charge levelled against you is that you do not represent the
:12:30. > :12:37.people, you lack a connection with Egypt's streets. Do you accept that?
:12:38. > :12:44.No. Our party is made up of thousands of the youth who were part
:12:45. > :12:52.of the 25th of January and 30th of June revolution. You do not have an
:12:53. > :12:56.elitist party that has made up of intellectuals and pseudo`
:12:57. > :13:02.intellectuals who sit and discuss nothing. You do not have the reach
:13:03. > :13:12.of the Muslim Brotherhood in how it can run schools and hospitals and
:13:13. > :13:15.shops. You do not `` we do not have 40 years under our belts or the
:13:16. > :13:22.support of the state that the Muslim Brotherhood has had. It is not a
:13:23. > :13:27.competition. What am saying is that what we do have is a clear vision of
:13:28. > :13:35.where we want to get, a determination that we will get
:13:36. > :13:38.there, and a base of young people who are part of a three`year
:13:39. > :13:43.revolution that have under their belts quite an incredible experience
:13:44. > :13:50.that they have seen and been through and they are determined to get to
:13:51. > :13:56.where their dreams have led them. Your vision of the future of your
:13:57. > :14:07.party, what is its? How would you define it? I would define it as a
:14:08. > :14:13.party that could become the party of the people. A majority party and the
:14:14. > :14:21.party that can actually mobilise around other democratic groups and
:14:22. > :14:25.parties and lead that process. This is what I hoped for and what am
:14:26. > :14:39.working for and I think this is what we can get to. As difficult as it is
:14:40. > :14:45.and is foggy as the picture is, the deepest hope that people are
:14:46. > :14:51.carrying in their hearts is that. Can I ask you about the difficulty?
:14:52. > :14:59.This is a tiny party. At its peak it had 25,000 members. 35% of Egyptians
:15:00. > :15:04.had not heard of the National salvation front. How do you reach
:15:05. > :15:22.people? How do you realise this vision? We have branches in 37 `` 28
:15:23. > :15:34.areas. We have something like 312 branches. We have a party that has
:15:35. > :15:39.an outreach to every major city and government in Egypt. That is not a
:15:40. > :15:45.tiny party in comparison to other parties. What you do have is
:15:46. > :15:54.potential. You have 20`25,000 members. You have a potential for
:15:55. > :16:08.growth that is enormous. What you have also decided those 25,000 is a
:16:09. > :16:14.very broad movement of people, organised in trade unions, groups,
:16:15. > :16:23.coalitions, different ways. And this coalition would have you at its head
:16:24. > :16:27.as Prime Minister or President? Why would it have me as Prime Minister
:16:28. > :16:36.or President? This is not what I am saying. I am asking what your
:16:37. > :16:43.personal ambitions. I have my basic ambition. To get this party on the
:16:44. > :16:52.ground and make it to become an alternative as a democratic force. A
:16:53. > :16:55.democratic alternative. We always have people who would want to get
:16:56. > :17:02.into the presidential elections, but that is not me. So you do not want
:17:03. > :17:12.to be president. It is not my personal choice. I have led this
:17:13. > :17:21.party and pushed and have been pressured by the use. You are a
:17:22. > :17:27.reluctant leader. I am a very reluctant leader. Can I ask you
:17:28. > :17:30.about that? You are the first woman to lead a political party in
:17:31. > :17:39.Egypt's history. I have not reluctant because I and a woman.
:17:40. > :17:46.Apparently Egypt is the worst Arab state to live in if you are a woman.
:17:47. > :17:51.That was out of 22 countries. This was a result of research into
:17:52. > :17:57.violence and harassment. It had become harder for women. Have you
:17:58. > :18:07.found that you have been attacked for being a woman faced more abuse
:18:08. > :18:12.than male colleagues? No. Definitely, I am not saying that
:18:13. > :18:21.because I am trying to paint the picture as Rosie, I have not had any
:18:22. > :18:31.attack from my party. Comments? Or vitriol? I have not had any kind of
:18:32. > :18:39.hate mail or negative media comments. And from other parties. It
:18:40. > :18:45.has been extremely positive, which is strange. I expected some kind of
:18:46. > :18:50.negative comments. And the women around you? Is that something you
:18:51. > :18:59.recognise as a picture of Egypt for women in Egypt? I think I do. What I
:19:00. > :19:09.said at one point is that I smell change. Definitely, that is what we
:19:10. > :19:15.are seeing. There are three years, three years of incredible momentum
:19:16. > :19:27.and changes and that has left its mark on the psyche of people, on
:19:28. > :19:34.consciousness and emotions. What we have seen over the changes that are
:19:35. > :19:39.sometimes big, sometimes minor, but change is happening. So when you
:19:40. > :19:47.look at the mouth genital mutilation, which is huge in Egypt.
:19:48. > :19:54.`` female. In theory, it is against the law. Will that be something that
:19:55. > :19:59.changes? Is that something that belongs to the past? These are
:20:00. > :20:07.probably the hardest to change. These are ingrained cultural
:20:08. > :20:13.traditions that happen in the deepest of the countryside. I would
:20:14. > :20:20.say that changes can happen in the cities. But these are the slowest to
:20:21. > :20:28.change. What you have are the faster changes, probably the political
:20:29. > :20:33.changes that can occur. Definitely the visibility of women in the
:20:34. > :20:39.political scene has had on the consciousness of people. ``
:20:40. > :20:44.reflected. Women have been in the front ranks of the revolution. They
:20:45. > :20:53.have been vocal. They have led movements. They are leading trade
:20:54. > :20:57.unions. This is translating into the demand for rights and realising
:20:58. > :21:00.those rights. We are definitely going to be seeing that more. But
:21:01. > :21:07.also a backlash over and over again. One thing the party said that
:21:08. > :21:12.the to re`evaluate the value of American assistance to make sure the
:21:13. > :21:17.costs do not outweigh the benefits. America is about to decide whether
:21:18. > :21:29.to resume its paid $1.5 billion. `` its aid of. Is your belief that
:21:30. > :21:34.Egypt can do without it? We need to re`evaluate our own economic
:21:35. > :21:44.situation. But not the relationship with America? You do not evaluate a
:21:45. > :21:49.nation `` relationship with a whole people without evaluating your own
:21:50. > :21:54.objectives. Is that objective counter to that relationship? And
:21:55. > :22:04.America should resume its $1.5 billion of aid? I am not to tell the
:22:05. > :22:09.US government what to do. But Egyptian society, as a country,
:22:10. > :22:14.should have its own strategy for economic development. It has not had
:22:15. > :22:20.that for a very long time. It has been dealing with hand to mouth,
:22:21. > :22:31.relying mostly on debt, which is ridiculous. This has to change. We
:22:32. > :22:38.have to have our own policies that reflect our own interest is and the
:22:39. > :22:44.interests of our people. The party was founded to save the revolution
:22:45. > :22:48.of the Arab uprising. The Coptic Pope described the uprising, it was
:22:49. > :22:52.neither a spring or an Autumn. It was an Arab winter brought by
:22:53. > :23:02.malicious forces in our region to break up countries into smaller
:23:03. > :23:08.states. Does he have something? Or was it something beneficial to your
:23:09. > :23:16.country? Definitely the latter. The Arab spring reflected a dream and
:23:17. > :23:23.they hope that this region can break through autocratic rule and actually
:23:24. > :23:28.achieve freedom and social justice and human dignity. Those are the
:23:29. > :23:35.slogans that people were charging and have been charging for three
:23:36. > :23:42.years. `` chanting. It is not something that you can discount in
:23:43. > :23:50.that way and it is very sad that someone say that. It is going to be
:23:51. > :23:56.realised. It will realise its calls if not now, definitely some years
:23:57. > :24:00.down the road. Hala Shukralla, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank
:24:01. > :24:33.you. All to the prospects over the next
:24:34. > :24:40.few days. There will be some showers around as well. Some brightness
:24:41. > :24:44.around first thing in the morning, but the showers will be feeding in
:24:45. > :24:53.from the east. It is a deteriorating picture. Go west. Joan. It will be a
:24:54. > :24:54.reasonable start. `` for