:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:07. > :00:22.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am here in the Zambian capital, Lusaka. Today
:00:23. > :00:25.I'll speak to Kenneth Kaunda. Leader of the struggle for independence, he
:00:26. > :00:28.was sentenced to hard labour in prison by the British before he went
:00:29. > :00:31.on to become Zambia's first president of the post`colonial era.
:00:32. > :00:34.It is a landmark year for Zambia, the 50th anniversary of its
:00:35. > :00:41.independence, and Kenneth Kaunda himself turns 90. What has 50 years
:00:42. > :00:42.of freedom brought the people of Zambia and elsewhere on the
:00:43. > :01:14.continent? Kenneth Kaunda, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:15. > :01:18.Thank you for having me. For those of us who don't remember, just give
:01:19. > :01:21.us an idea of what it was really like to live under colonial rule in
:01:22. > :01:35.Africa. It was a terrible experience. Because we are living
:01:36. > :01:52.under apartheid. Separate schools, separate hospitals, separate
:01:53. > :02:03.everything. In these schools, only a handful of whites and browns. They
:02:04. > :02:14.had everything, many hospitals, while the black majority had little.
:02:15. > :02:21.How did it make you feel? Did you feel humiliated? When you went to
:02:22. > :02:23.the shop to buy something, and it was given to you through a
:02:24. > :02:27.pigeonhole, and you've got it knowing that you are angry about
:02:28. > :02:57.this, you don't like what's taking place. And yet you are quiet about
:02:58. > :02:59.it. It was a really hard time. One day I remember I went to buy a
:03:00. > :03:21.bicycle. I paid some money through a
:03:22. > :03:25.pigeonhole and then this man said, come round now and get your bicycle.
:03:26. > :03:36.I said, young man, I paid for this bicycle through this pigeonhole.
:03:37. > :03:52.Please get me this bicycle out of that place through this pigeonhole.
:03:53. > :03:58.LAUGHTER. And he said, what do you mean? I said, I mean what I am
:03:59. > :04:01.saying. I paid through the pigeonhole. Get me the bicycle
:04:02. > :04:04.outside the shop through this pigeonhole. We quarrelled for some
:04:05. > :04:11.time. So, we quarrelled and quarrelled and in the end I got back
:04:12. > :04:13.my money. You became very active in politics, eventually there was the
:04:14. > :04:16.United National Independence Party created, you became one of the
:04:17. > :04:26.foremost fighters for independence in what was to become Zambia. You
:04:27. > :04:31.paid a price for your agitation against the British colonial
:04:32. > :04:40.presence. You were sentenced at one time to hard labour in prison. Yes.
:04:41. > :04:53.Did that stiffen your resolve? Several times I went to prison. I
:04:54. > :04:56.went in, came out, continued fighting racism in every corner. You
:04:57. > :04:59.say fighting racism. You think the British colonial system was based on
:05:00. > :05:01.racism? Of course. What is the meaning of buying things through
:05:02. > :05:05.pigeonholes? You think the British at the time were racist? Not all of
:05:06. > :05:10.them were. Everything they were doing was racist. What was it like,
:05:11. > :05:12.then, that moment, the official ceremony, when your country became
:05:13. > :05:57.Zambia, independent, and you became the first president? It was a time
:05:58. > :06:00.worth noting. When the British flag came down and ours went up, it was
:06:01. > :06:03.quite a time. The Queen paid attention to the ceremony when it
:06:04. > :06:06.became Zambia. You have spoken about your great love and respect for the
:06:07. > :06:09.Queen. How do you reconcile that sentiment with the fact that she
:06:10. > :06:13.presided over the government which was presiding over your people in
:06:14. > :06:16.the manner in which you say you had to fight them? How do you reconcile
:06:17. > :06:26.those two sentiments? Admiring the Queen on one hand and opposing the
:06:27. > :06:30.government that acted in her name? She has been a great person from the
:06:31. > :06:33.beginning of my time. I have no bad feelings about her. Even when
:06:34. > :06:42.Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister and we quarrelled and quarrelled. I
:06:43. > :06:47.still have a lot of respect for her. You see the Queen as being above
:06:48. > :07:11.politics? No doubt about it. That's exactly how we saw her. When
:07:12. > :07:25.Margaret Thatcher said, don't go to Lusaka, that man is hopeless. How do
:07:26. > :07:29.you know she said that? The Queen said, look, I am head of the
:07:30. > :07:35.Commonwealth. I am going to Lusaka. How do you know about this? I was
:07:36. > :07:39.told about it. By who? But me tell you. I said I was going and I am
:07:40. > :07:42.going to head the Commonwealth summit there. The Queen came. But I
:07:43. > :08:23.was told about what Margaret Thatcher had done. My colleagues and
:08:24. > :08:26.I organised a dancing evening. Because she tried to stop that
:08:27. > :08:29.conference being held in Lusaka. I wanted to show her that we were not
:08:30. > :08:41.against her, by not avoiding the Queen. So, when the music was
:08:42. > :08:47.played, I got up, my then wife got up, I went to pick her up and
:08:48. > :08:56.dancing nicely. Others followed us. So, a good beginning. So you were
:08:57. > :08:59.dancing with Margaret Thatcher and your late wife was dancing with
:09:00. > :09:05.Denis Thatcher? That must have been quite a sight. We mentioned your
:09:06. > :09:35.role supporting the freedom movement in southern Africa. But you are the
:09:36. > :09:38.last of that generation which was caught up in what was described as
:09:39. > :09:41.the winds of change, where Africa was decolonised in that very intense
:09:42. > :09:45.period in the 1950s and the 1960s. You knew all the characters then.
:09:46. > :09:47.What was it like to be part of that period in history? The founding
:09:48. > :09:56.fathers of independent African states? It was a wonderful time. We
:09:57. > :10:10.were planning the future of Africa. We helped each other. Do you think
:10:11. > :10:12.that those Africans, who led their countries into independence, that
:10:13. > :10:20.somehow that great hope was lost? That the people did not enjoy the
:10:21. > :10:29.benefits of decolonisation? Where is Ghana today? Where is Angola today?
:10:30. > :10:32.Where is Mozambique today? There are some difficulties in South Africa.
:10:33. > :10:56.But how far have some of them gone with that struggle? Why did you make
:10:57. > :10:59.Zambia a one`party state in 1972? Why did you decide that party
:11:00. > :11:14.democracy wasn't right? Look at this thing in the right way. When we go
:11:15. > :11:31.towards the elections, I went to see my leader of the African Congress. I
:11:32. > :11:34.said, look, let's come together and form a government of the people of
:11:35. > :11:37.Zambia together. In the end, he agreed. So, we went for the
:11:38. > :11:55.elections, we won, I made him minister of education, I made him
:11:56. > :11:58.minister of lands. We came together. We knew that if we didn't do that,
:11:59. > :12:13.some in South Africa would destroy us. The Boers would destroy us. I
:12:14. > :12:28.knew South Africans were very keen to destroy Zambia. So, they were
:12:29. > :12:34.keen to isolate me from other leaders in Zambia. Because of that,
:12:35. > :12:47.I went ahead and spoke to personal leaders in Zambia. Don't do that,
:12:48. > :12:52.don't listen to that, if you do that, this is a destroyed country.
:12:53. > :12:56.You didn't want them to exploit different parties in Zambia and use
:12:57. > :12:58.them to undermine you? That was your justification? Exactly. Why were you
:12:59. > :13:21.then always the only candidate on the list to become president? Why
:13:22. > :13:25.didn't you have a choice? I was elected by the people of Zambia. But
:13:26. > :13:29.you were the only one on the list. Many other leaders were there. They
:13:30. > :13:37.will all play a role in the running of Zambia. When you look at
:13:38. > :14:00.independent Africa, do you feel that the people of Africa have enjoyed
:14:01. > :14:03.freedom from poverty? Arguably, they haven't when we look at the
:14:04. > :14:06.statistics over the past few decades. Sub Saharan Africa is still
:14:07. > :14:10.the least developed part of the world and people, to this day, still
:14:11. > :14:17.don't get their basic needs met in terms of shelter and healthcare,
:14:18. > :14:22.even food. Are people in Zambia starving today? Not starving, but
:14:23. > :14:26.there are huge poverty levels. People do not have access to basic
:14:27. > :14:43.needs. You have a short life expectancy in Zambia. Around 50. It
:14:44. > :14:52.is different from what you are saying. If you look at what the
:14:53. > :15:03.government is doing in terms of agriculture today, it's a real
:15:04. > :15:06.development. Real development. Looking at Zambia, you also see a
:15:07. > :15:16.situation which has been discussed across the continent, ties with
:15:17. > :15:19.China. You were probably the first African leader to bring the Chinese
:15:20. > :15:26.into your country in a major project at the time, the railway linking
:15:27. > :15:27.Zambia with a port in Tanzania. Fast forward, and what do you think of
:15:28. > :15:47.the Chinese presence in Africa? It is fantastic. Today, Zambia is
:15:48. > :16:02.building schools, hospitals, clinics. Zambia is building roads.
:16:03. > :16:12.In many different parts of the country. Zambia is developing very
:16:13. > :16:15.fast, because of China's assistance. But even the governor of the Central
:16:16. > :16:21.Bank of Nigeria has talked about the trade links with China and Africa.
:16:22. > :16:28.He says, they take our resources and sell us back cheap manufactured
:16:29. > :16:37.goods. He says that is the essence of colonialism. He is implying that
:16:38. > :16:40.the Chinese are practising a kind of neo`colonialism. Does he have a
:16:41. > :16:49.point? No. China is not a colonial power. It isn't. They are good
:16:50. > :16:52.friends of ours. When you, as the key member of the freedom fighters
:16:53. > :16:55.who brought Africa to independence in the 1950s and 60s, look at the
:16:56. > :16:58.continent today, you must be dismayed when you see some of the
:16:59. > :17:05.ethnic tensions that we are seeing even today. The Central African
:17:06. > :17:08.Republic, tensions between Christians, South Sudan, Nigeria and
:17:09. > :17:31.the activities of Boko Haram against their own people. That must fill you
:17:32. > :17:44.with dismay, when you see that conflict? Don't forget that in
:17:45. > :17:57.Berlin, 1884... Yes, the conference. What happened there? You shared up
:17:58. > :18:08.Africa. It has taken a long time to gain our independence. It took a
:18:09. > :18:11.long time to get our independence. Are you saying that the ethnic
:18:12. > :18:21.tensions we see now in several countries in Africa is because of
:18:22. > :18:31.the colonial legacy? Of course. All those years later? How can you dodge
:18:32. > :18:46.that? You can't. The impact of that conference in 1884. The carving up
:18:47. > :18:50.of Africa. But you are a committed Christian. Your father was a man of
:18:51. > :18:52.the church. Why do you think today we see African Muslims fighting
:18:53. > :19:02.African Christians in the Central African Republic? We see the
:19:03. > :19:20.activities of Boko Haram in Nigeria. This is a new phenomenon. It is
:19:21. > :19:28.terrible, I agree. That we should be fighting, Islam and Christianity
:19:29. > :19:44.should fight for the good of Africa. It is terrible. What the good lord
:19:45. > :19:53.Almighty is telling us, do unto others as you would have done unto
:19:54. > :19:56.you. But you see you preached that message of unity and fraternity as
:19:57. > :19:59.Nelson Mandela, your close friends did, why is it that the message you
:20:00. > :20:07.preached of unity, fraternity, the message of Nelson Mandela, is not
:20:08. > :20:10.being received? It pains me to see Christians and Islam in Egypt, in
:20:11. > :20:32.Syria, all these places, fighting each other. In the Central African
:20:33. > :20:38.Republic. Why are we doing that? Why is it happening? Christianity and
:20:39. > :20:51.the Islamic faith should find a way of working together. When you were
:20:52. > :21:07.President Kenneth Kaunda of Zambia, who struck an unusual note. One of
:21:08. > :21:14.your ten children died of HIV/Aids. You were still president then. You
:21:15. > :21:18.brought him in his dying days, to state house. A lot of people
:21:19. > :21:22.criticised you, asking why you are washing your dirty linen in public.
:21:23. > :21:33.There was a stigma attached to HIV/Aids. `` AIDS. This disease, HIV
:21:34. > :21:52.and AIDS, is a disease like any other. My wife and I... So, our son
:21:53. > :21:55.suffered from a disease and because of the stigma that is put against
:21:56. > :22:10.that disease, any child dying of it, the parents say it's malaria. We
:22:11. > :22:32.thought it was right that we should fight this stigma. My child, his
:22:33. > :22:35.wife was staying with him. We brought his family to come to state
:22:36. > :22:44.house, to demonstrate to the people of Zambia that the stigma on this
:22:45. > :22:52.disease is not right. That is how we began to fight stigma of AIDS. As a
:22:53. > :23:02.family, as leaders of the nation. We did that. When my boy died, we
:23:03. > :23:07.announced that he died of AIDS. You said at the time, my child has died,
:23:08. > :23:10.he was a brilliant boy. He was only 30 but he had four children. You
:23:11. > :23:18.will soon be celebrating your 90th birthday. When you look back on your
:23:19. > :23:28.long life, how do you think you can describe your legacy? I thank God
:23:29. > :23:39.that he guided me to help fight apartheid. To bring about a
:23:40. > :23:50.situation where race was not a problem. Where we agreed to work
:23:51. > :24:06.together as human beings and as God's children. I responded to God's
:24:07. > :24:09.teaching. I would like to be remembered, in that I contributed to
:24:10. > :24:11.that situation. Kenneth Kaunda, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:12. > :24:47.Thank you for coming. If you have been watching the
:24:48. > :24:50.weather forecast, you will know we have been talking about the
:24:51. > :24:52.south`easterly breeze. It's been responsible for the warmer feel for
:24:53. > :24:54.most of us.