:00:00. > :00:00.between the plane and eight traffic control shows nothing abnormal. That
:00:00. > :00:13.is it. You are up`to`date with all the stories. Now a BBC News, it had
:00:14. > :00:19.talk. Welcome to HARDtalk. We are broadcasting from the radio Theatre
:00:20. > :00:25.in London. Benjamin Chavis was one of the Wilmington ten who were
:00:26. > :00:30.wrongfully convicted in the 1970s for firebombing a supermarket during
:00:31. > :00:31.racial unrest in North Carolina. Amnesty International called
:00:32. > :00:37.America's first political prisoners. They were only granted a part in
:00:38. > :00:41.just over one year ago. Benjamin Chavis has campaigned his whole life
:00:42. > :00:45.for black people to have the same freedoms as white people. Working
:00:46. > :00:51.for Martin Luther King when he was just 14, many years later he
:00:52. > :00:54.organised the million man March. America is called the land of the
:00:55. > :00:57.free, does that apply if you are black? Ladies and gentlemen please
:00:58. > :01:18.welcome Benjamin Chavis. Does a black child, born in America
:01:19. > :01:23.in 2014 have just as many opportunities as a white child? I
:01:24. > :01:28.believe that a black child born this year in the US has more
:01:29. > :01:34.opportunities than ever before but still not equal opportunities. We
:01:35. > :01:39.still have racial prejudice, bias, racism is still a factor in our
:01:40. > :01:42.society. But I can give you a long`term answer. In the last 50
:01:43. > :01:46.years, I have seen tremendous progress. The fact that we have an
:01:47. > :01:52.African`American as the president of the US is testimony to the dream of
:01:53. > :01:59.Martin Luther King Jr.. Freedom is a constant struggle so you do not take
:02:00. > :02:04.for granted the progress until there is a full integrated society. So
:02:05. > :02:10.there is still a need for the civil rights movement? Absolutely. Let's
:02:11. > :02:14.take it back to the 1970s in Carolina. That was a time when the
:02:15. > :02:21.schools had just ended segregation. But lack the there felt they were
:02:22. > :02:27.getting a raw deal. You were sent there as a young man. You are a
:02:28. > :02:33.minister in the church and you were sent there to do what? I was 24
:02:34. > :02:38.years old. Even though I was 24, I was a veteran of the civil rights
:02:39. > :02:45.movement. The United Church of Christ sent me to Wellington to help
:02:46. > :02:57.with the desegregation progress. We had to go to a Federal Court.
:02:58. > :03:01.Wilmington was under court order to make black student and white
:03:02. > :03:07.students who do school together a riot took place. Even though we were
:03:08. > :03:12.victims of the right, we were the target of white supremacist
:03:13. > :03:25.organisations. One year later, in 1972, we were undyed and were
:03:26. > :03:32.charged. Ten of us were such to `` charged to 282 years in prison.
:03:33. > :03:37.Those few days, perhaps we should explain what it was like for a young
:03:38. > :03:44.black guy growing up in the US at that time. In the early 1970s, it
:03:45. > :03:50.was three years since Martin Luther King Jr. 's assassination. Ronald
:03:51. > :03:53.Reagan was president. There was a law and order campaign to suppress
:03:54. > :03:59.the civil rights movement after the assassination. I was one of the
:04:00. > :04:04.young student militants. I must admit. That was a rousing the black
:04:05. > :04:11.consciousness of our community. My church sent me to Wilmington to help
:04:12. > :04:17.provide an opportunity for young people to express themselves. How?
:04:18. > :04:21.You used the word militant which is just you are prepared to go pretty
:04:22. > :04:26.far to get what you wanted. I was pushing the envelope. Basic freedom
:04:27. > :04:33.is the freedom of expression. The right to say no to racism. The right
:04:34. > :04:38.to say no to in justice. A lot of times in many places, not just the
:04:39. > :04:43.US, People's rights to even say no to injustice has been suppressed.
:04:44. > :04:50.And that was the case in Wilmington in 1971. You had come from, you are
:04:51. > :04:59.the first black child to have a library card. I grew up in Oxford,
:05:00. > :05:03.North Carolina. It was not that simple to get a library card. I wish
:05:04. > :05:10.it was that simple to just ask. We had to organise protests. In case of
:05:11. > :05:14.the segregating the library, my parents were still with me. I was so
:05:15. > :05:19.proud that they stood with me as I demanded the right to simply check a
:05:20. > :05:25.book out of the library. Racism is very devastating to any group, any
:05:26. > :05:32.racial group that denies you basic opportunity, basic assets. Even
:05:33. > :05:36.though I was very young, I understood that something needed to
:05:37. > :05:41.change. So you were angry, justifiably, given what you are not
:05:42. > :05:45.able to do but what does that mean that you did in Wilmington. You say
:05:46. > :05:49.that you are the victims. One thing that I learnt from Martin Luther
:05:50. > :05:54.King was how to channel anger into protest. That is what we did. I
:05:55. > :05:59.believe in standing up, but you have to stand up in the right way. With
:06:00. > :06:05.freedom comes responsibility so we organised nonviolent protest. A Mac
:06:06. > :06:11.there was a white owned grocery store which was firebombed that
:06:12. > :06:18.night. Somebody firebombed, not the Wilmington ten. Nobody really knows
:06:19. > :06:25.what happened. And two people died. Here is the thing. It took 40 years.
:06:26. > :06:33.The first female governor of North Carolina. We were sentenced in 1972
:06:34. > :06:38.will stop it took 40 years for the Governor, not just issue a part in
:06:39. > :06:41.to issue a pardon of innocence. That was very important. They did their
:06:42. > :06:44.research and realised that we should not have been arrested. We should
:06:45. > :06:48.not have been imprisoned or prosecuted in the first place. I am
:06:49. > :06:55.very thankful that the governor of North Carolina had the courage to
:06:56. > :07:00.issue asked a pardon. But why was it courageous because actually, your
:07:01. > :07:03.conviction had been overturned years before back in 1980. There were
:07:04. > :07:07.various things that happened, your sentence was reduced, the testimony
:07:08. > :07:11.was retracted. A court overturned the conviction and yet it was 40
:07:12. > :07:17.years and you say it was courageous, why? Because sometimes it is
:07:18. > :07:23.difficult for people in a dominant role in society to confess to
:07:24. > :07:29.racism. That is difficult. The Governor in issuing the pardon said,
:07:30. > :07:37.this is a case of naked racism. That is difficult for the officials. Even
:07:38. > :07:47.in 2012. Even now. And given the fact of the case. Sometimes it is
:07:48. > :07:50.not about the fact. And it was not because, actually, it wasn't so
:07:51. > :07:55.clear cut that there were some people who think, whatever happens
:07:56. > :08:01.then that you may have had some role in it. I definitely had a role in
:08:02. > :08:09.mobilising. I had a role in standing up and speaking out we were totally
:08:10. > :08:14.innocent of the false charges. Conspiracy to sell emergency
:08:15. > :08:24.personnel. You served for a half years. What was that like? I would
:08:25. > :08:28.not encourage anyone to go to prison to strengthen their faith. Prison
:08:29. > :08:40.was difficult. It was hard and life`threatening. I decided to keep
:08:41. > :08:43.my faith in God. I decided not to serve time but make time served the
:08:44. > :08:47.cause of the liberation movement of our people. What do you mean by it
:08:48. > :08:53.life`threatening? There was one report that you did not dare go to
:08:54. > :08:58.the shower rooms for six months. The first six months, I could not go to
:08:59. > :09:02.the shower because there was a plot to stab me in the showers that I did
:09:03. > :09:08.not want to get stabbed so I stayed in my cell. You say that you used
:09:09. > :09:16.the time to get a masters degree in theology. I was a minister and I
:09:17. > :09:20.wanted to sharpen my skills. Anyone have to decide how you use your
:09:21. > :09:24.time. Whether you are free or in prison, he is how you use your time
:09:25. > :09:29.to make your own self better, to make your community better and to
:09:30. > :09:34.make the world better. And you read in the bathroom at night could you
:09:35. > :09:45.could not use lights out in the cell. That is correct. You
:09:46. > :09:48.eventually, when you come out, you continue, at this stage the
:09:49. > :09:55.conviction has been overturned but you have not been pardoned. When you
:09:56. > :10:00.are in your 40s, you elected to lead what is a hugely important
:10:01. > :10:04.organisation. Important to you because you are given membership for
:10:05. > :10:08.your 12 birthday. It is America's worst, largest civil rights
:10:09. > :10:16.organisation with half a million members. It is the world 's oldest
:10:17. > :10:25.civil rights association. I was so pleased having joined it at 12 years
:10:26. > :10:31.old. To be elected in 1993. One of my proudest moments was inviting
:10:32. > :10:37.Nelson Mandela in 1993 to speak at the convention. But it did not go
:10:38. > :10:42.well because within a short time, someone threatened to bring a case
:10:43. > 1:23:25against you for sexual harassment, discrimination, wrongful dismissal.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25You are ranged a settlement with the groups of funds and you did not tell
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the board. It came out and they sacked you. Let go back to the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25facts. When you are a civil rights movement leader, people will make
1:23:26 > 1:23:25false allegations against you. At the time, there was an employee who
1:23:26 > 1:23:25made false allegations. Why did you agree to pay her? I wanted to reach
1:23:26 > 1:23:25an out of court settlement to protect the organisation. I want to
1:23:26 > 1:23:25correct one thing, some members of the board did know about it. The
1:23:26 > 1:23:25chairman knew about it as well as the general council. Do you regret,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25was it a mistake to use money to try and settle... You say the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25allegations... The mistake was not to inform the full board. Do you
1:23:26 > 1:23:25think the whole board would have agreed? Absolutely. To spend
1:23:26 > 1:23:25?300,000. That amount was not spent. One of the reasons it came to light
1:23:26 > 1:23:25was that you gave her less than and you did not settle the full term. I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25read that personally. I just want to correct the record. You were sacked
1:23:26 > 1:23:25one year later. Was there a sense of betrayal that led you then to go
1:23:26 > 1:23:25from there to accept a senior position in the Nation of Islam? I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25don't think it was a betrayal. I am still a life member of the NAACP, I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25still support the NAACP. You said you felt it was a crucifixion at the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25time. I am a veteran of people making false allegations, so I know
1:23:26 > 1:23:25how to withstand it. Not a victim feeling? It is not about feeling
1:23:26 > 1:23:25like a victim, I think it is important, if you are victimised by
1:23:26 > 1:23:25any kind of injustice, to have the freedom to speak out against it, and
1:23:26 > 1:23:25also to call the facts as they are. The facts as they are, you joined
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the Nation of Islam, took a senior position in a separatist movement, a
1:23:26 > 1:23:25controversial separatist movement, calling for its own... That
1:23:26 > 1:23:25African`Americans should have their own nation. Was that a wise thing to
1:23:26 > 1:23:25do? Absolutely. First of all, let's get the chronology straight. After
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the NAACP, I was the national director of the Million Man March,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25still as a Christian minister. That was in 1995, I did not join the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25Nation of Islam until 1997. I am very proud of the work that I did
1:23:26 > 1:23:25while I was in the Nation, we helped reduce black on black crime in many
1:23:26 > 1:23:25communities, helped to stop some of the self`destruction that was going
1:23:26 > 1:23:25on in many neighbourhoods. That is why I joined, because I wanted to
1:23:26 > 1:23:25get more hands`on on improving the lives of young African`Americans.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25That was the whole purpose of the Million Man March, which was very
1:23:26 > 1:23:25successful, transformative. Sure, but after the Million Man March, you
1:23:26 > 1:23:25changed your name to Benjamin Chavis Mohamed, and there were criticisms
1:23:26 > 1:23:25of the Nation of Islam, that it still existed, but that they were
1:23:26 > 1:23:25anti`Semitic, antiwhite, prejudiced against gays, is that how you came
1:23:26 > 1:23:25to see them? No, absolutely. Even though I work very closely with
1:23:26 > 1:23:25ministers, and I did have a senior position in Nation of Islam, and no
1:23:26 > 1:23:25time did I ever witness or hear any anti`Semitism. On one occasion,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25there was one person, a former collective of the Nation of Islam,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25who made some anti`Semitic remarks, and I denounce that person for doing
1:23:26 > 1:23:25it. There are several comments of one person referring to the Jews as
1:23:26 > 1:23:25satanic. The work that I did with the Nation, I am very proud of. We
1:23:26 > 1:23:25helped save lives and transform lives, the Million Man March... It
1:23:26 > 1:23:25is almost the 20th anniversary of the Million Man March, and I think
1:23:26 > 1:23:25it will be a moment that people celebrate. It is the largest
1:23:26 > 1:23:25gathering on October 16, 1995 in American history. I understand. But
1:23:26 > 1:23:25your association with the Nation of Islam that your former... I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25associate with a lot of people. Thank God for my associations. I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25associated with Martin Luther King, I associate it with Nelson Mandela.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25Why did you fall out with them? I didn't fall out with them, I just
1:23:26 > 1:23:25went back to the church. Why didn't the Nation of Islam get rid of you?
1:23:26 > 1:23:25It is not about getting rid of, it is about evolving. Why life is about
1:23:26 > 1:23:25evolving. We are celebrating freedom in 2014. Love and good times?
1:23:26 > 1:23:25Absolutely. You returned to your church, who decided to terminate
1:23:26 > 1:23:25your ministry. A didn't feel that a Christian minister should try to be
1:23:26 > 1:23:25a Muslim minister, that is their right. Can you see their point? It
1:23:26 > 1:23:25is a little contradictory to say that with God all love is possible,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25and then we try to do all things that are possible, and people
1:23:26 > 1:23:25criticise you. I am very proud of my evolution, and I think that you
1:23:26 > 1:23:25learn as you go in life, and I thank the world in which we live in
1:23:26 > 1:23:25today, is a much better place because people sacrifice, people
1:23:26 > 1:23:25stand up, people speak out. No mistakes their weekly Nation of
1:23:26 > 1:23:25Islam? Not at all. You said at the outset that huge progress has been
1:23:26 > 1:23:25made, but there is still a lot. A black child born today does not have
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the same opportunities as a white child. When you look muddy are
1:23:26 > 1:23:25staggering. In the 70s, in 1967, they basically earned half of what a
1:23:26 > 1:23:25white household debt. That has hardly changed. Black unemployment
1:23:26 > 1:23:25rate, home ownership, black unemployment is still double the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25rate of white people as it was in the 50s. Why have those economic
1:23:26 > 1:23:25possibilities not changed for black people? There is a problem of income
1:23:26 > 1:23:25inequality, institutionalisation of economic injustice, and it takes
1:23:26 > 1:23:25time. You do not solve a problem, a social problem, a racial problem, in
1:23:26 > 1:23:25two or three decades. It takes a long time. We are talking about 50
1:23:26 > 1:23:25or 60 years, and these are hardly shifting, these figures. There is a
1:23:26 > 1:23:25serious contradiction about the disproportionate impact of the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25criminal justice system in the US has had on black people, no question
1:23:26 > 1:23:25about it. I want to make sure you are understanding what I am saying.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25The figures that you have said are accurate. Those figures expose the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25problem of racial injustice, and that it is very deep`seated in in
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the US. Even though we have an African American as president, that
1:23:26 > 1:23:25doesn't mean that we don't still have problems. The fact that we have
1:23:26 > 1:23:25a black President in the White House is itself a very serious step
1:23:26 > 1:23:25forward, to not only shedding light on these contradictions, some people
1:23:26 > 1:23:25say that the glass is half empty. I don't, I say it is half full. All
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the progress we have made is worth continuing to keep pushing.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25have healthcare. We don't have that in the US. It takes time. When
1:23:26 > 1:23:25President Obama was elected, the economy was wrecked. George W Bush
1:23:26 > 1:23:25wrecked the economy. There were two wars that we should never have been
1:23:26 > 1:23:25in, in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has entered those wars. The NAACP says
1:23:26 > 1:23:25of him that since he took office, white people in this country are
1:23:26 > 1:23:25doing better, and black people are doing a full point worse. The
1:23:26 > 1:23:25responsibility of the NAACP is to call it where it is... And that is
1:23:26 > 1:23:25the way it is? That is the way it is. The income gap for blacks and
1:23:26 > 1:23:25whites has widened. Since President Obama came in? No, it was widened
1:23:26 > 1:23:25before he came in. That is what they are saying. That is not accurate. I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25am reading". Since President Obama first took office. I believe the gap
1:23:26 > 1:23:25between blacks and whites in the US is too wide. The question is, how
1:23:26 > 1:23:25can it be bridged? I believe that President Obama is doing a good
1:23:26 > 1:23:25job, I think that they have just had a report that the housing statistics
1:23:26 > 1:23:25and the foreclosure rates, blacks had the highest foreclosure rates,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25which started before Obama became president, but now it is coming down
1:23:26 > 1:23:25a bit. Black unemployment is still one of the highest, but it is coming
1:23:26 > 1:23:25down a little bit. All of these things you have to calibrate, and I
1:23:26 > 1:23:25think that taking a broad stroke analysis of whether or not Obama is
1:23:26 > 1:23:25a good president or not, it is sort of unfair. Perhaps it comes down to,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25your whole life... If you compare Barack Obama to President Bush,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25hands down, he is a better president. Hands down. The American
1:23:26 > 1:23:25philosopher and academic, Cornell west, said that if you keep folks
1:23:26 > 1:23:25intimidated and scared, you give them access, but they are still
1:23:26 > 1:23:25scared, and as long as they are scared you are on the plantation.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25Here is a close friend of mine, we are colleagues. Certainly, he is one
1:23:26 > 1:23:25of the great intellectual giants of our society. His criticisms have
1:23:26 > 1:23:25some validity, but my point is that we tend to be overly critical, we
1:23:26 > 1:23:25tend not to see the progress that is being made, and particularly for the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25young people who are coming up today, my job is to keep them in,
1:23:26 > 1:23:25not to discourage. This is not a hopeless situation, we have made
1:23:26 > 1:23:25progress, is there more progress to be made, yes. Are we headed in the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25right direction, yes. Should it be in the hands of the people? It is
1:23:26 > 1:23:25always in the hands of the people. This militant, do you still feel
1:23:26 > 1:23:25militant? It depends on what you mean by militant. You used the word
1:23:26 > 1:23:25at the outset. I am still a seasoned militant freedom fighter. Today.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25But, I fight for freedom in ways that can really help change the
1:23:26 > 1:23:25quality of life of people. Not just for black people, but for all
1:23:26 > 1:23:25people. I just want to make sure that you understand that I am here
1:23:26 > 1:23:25on this programme not only to fight for the rights of black people, but
1:23:26 > 1:23:25for the rights of all people. What you find out, it you can't stand up
1:23:26 > 1:23:25for freedom for yourself, you have to stand up for freedom for people.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25Lax, whites, Latinos, Asians, people from all over the world. `` blacks.
1:23:26 > 1:23:25That is why I have worked all over the world to make sure that
1:23:26 > 1:23:25people's writes are improved. Martin Luther King said it best, and
1:23:26 > 1:23:25injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. You would still
1:23:26 > 1:23:25be asking for people to rise up at injustice? Absolutely. Keep
1:23:26 > 1:23:25marching, keep standing up, is keep speaking out. We had a bigger
1:23:26 > 1:23:25worldwide freedom movement than we did 50 years ago,
1:23:26 > 1:23:26Good morning. When Nissan came out on Tuesday it was