:00:00. > :00:08.European security in a generation. Time for HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa hold elections in May, and
:00:19. > :00:22.complaints from workers are getting louder. Unofficial figures show that
:00:23. > :00:27.nearly half of the working population doesn't have a proper
:00:28. > :00:32.job, so what happened to the post` apartheid dream of work and
:00:33. > :00:35.education for all? My guest today it is Zwelinzima Vavi, the now
:00:36. > :00:39.suspended head of the site to, the powerful trade unions Alliance. Is
:00:40. > :00:56.it holding back South Africa's progress? `` COSATU.
:00:57. > :01:03.Zwelinzima Vavi, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me.
:01:04. > :01:07.Is it not the case that it is the trade unions in South Africa that is
:01:08. > :01:14.stopping the country's progress? I don't think so. I don't think you
:01:15. > :01:21.can say that the poverty and growing inequalities in South Africa are as
:01:22. > :01:26.a result of the unions. That would be a very incorrect answer to give.
:01:27. > :01:33.Let these plain what they mean unemployment, terrible in South
:01:34. > :01:37.Africa. Unofficially it is 35%. For young people in South Africa, as
:01:38. > :01:43.high as 50%. Your policies are not helping to get people working. We
:01:44. > :01:48.are not in government. The ANC is in government, we have been shouting
:01:49. > :01:56.from the rooftops, arguing that the current bonuses do not help us to
:01:57. > :02:00.resolve the crises. A knee`jerk reaction based on emotions and
:02:01. > :02:06.blackmail by the big business in South Africa, we haven't been
:02:07. > :02:13.listening to that. We think that the main source of the challenges, the
:02:14. > :02:17.triple crisis of inequalities in poverty, are as a result of
:02:18. > :02:21.structural deficiencies we inherited from the apartheid past, and we
:02:22. > :02:27.believe that those structural deficiencies had not been properly
:02:28. > :02:32.addressed so far. Let me put this to you, you are making a bad situation
:02:33. > :02:34.worse. One example, teachers in South Africa. A recent report by a
:02:35. > :02:42.think tank in the country, said that think tank in the country, said that
:02:43. > :02:50.maths teachers in primary schools in South Africa are amongst the worst
:02:51. > :02:56.in Africa. Worse than Uganda or Tanzania. It has been said,
:02:57. > :02:58.unionised teachers are not being held accountable for their
:02:59. > :03:04.underperformance. That is one example. The unions are getting in
:03:05. > :03:08.the way of basically allowing bad teachers to be sacked. If I had my
:03:09. > :03:13.way, do you know what I would propose for South Africa today? A
:03:14. > :03:16.deal on accountability. Accountability, not only of the
:03:17. > :03:20.teachers in the public sector workers, and the hospitals and
:03:21. > :03:25.municipalities, but also that we need a broader debate on
:03:26. > :03:36.accountability of leadership. The day in the public or the private
:03:37. > :03:41.institutions. Be a responsible for... You are talking about the
:03:42. > :03:46.scandal over the Homestead for President Jacob Zuma that has cost
:03:47. > :03:53.the public purse something like $20 million. I will raise your links
:03:54. > :03:57.with the ANC in a moment. But to continue this issue that the unions
:03:58. > :04:04.are not allowing for teachers to be sacked. What do you say to that?
:04:05. > :04:08.That is wrong. The Labour relations act in South Africa allows any
:04:09. > :04:15.employer to sack any underperforming employees, including teachers. That
:04:16. > :04:19.is not the case, though. Official statistics show that half of South
:04:20. > :04:23.Africa's children from the working poor leave school after 12 years
:04:24. > :04:27.with few skills and no hope of jobs, because they are basically not
:04:28. > :04:30.getting the right skills and training in schools to do their jobs
:04:31. > :04:37.that the country needs. You can't blame that on trade unions. It is,
:04:38. > :04:40.by the way, the very trade unions that have insisted that over the
:04:41. > :04:46.past five years, one of the priorities ought to be addressing
:04:47. > :04:53.the issue of education. You have mentioned already, we are
:04:54. > :04:56.cooperating with the countries in our region who have far less
:04:57. > :05:05.resources than South Africa has. If you don't address that functioning
:05:06. > :05:12.of the system, you may give up on ever finding a solution to the
:05:13. > :05:16.crisis is of unemployment. This is one where the unions can exacerbate
:05:17. > :05:22.the situation. You demand a decent living wage for all the workers who
:05:23. > :05:25.come under the COSATU umbrella. COSATU is the national Federation
:05:26. > :05:31.and Alliance of many unions, who represent workers in many unions. On
:05:32. > :05:36.this insistence on a minimum wage, even for unskilled workers, it means
:05:37. > :05:40.that there is a huge pool of unskilled labour can't get jobs
:05:41. > :05:45.because they have been priced out of the market. If you were to speak to
:05:46. > :05:59.any South African employer, the least you the most important... I
:06:00. > :06:04.bet it would not mention the wages. It would not say, we can't employ
:06:05. > :06:06.more people, we can't expand our companies because labour is priced
:06:07. > :06:12.out of the market. Nobody would say so. They would raise important
:06:13. > :06:16.issues. They will raise the electricity prices, they will raise
:06:17. > :06:22.the availability of water resources, they will raise the... Economics
:06:23. > :06:26.tells you that you need lower wage jobs to keep people employed
:06:27. > :06:31.formally. I put to you what the minister for national economic
:06:32. > :06:37.planning has said. He said, there are too many forces who want to
:06:38. > :06:41.thump their chests, and what this country needs is a labour market
:06:42. > :06:47.that operates efficiently. I agree with that. That means that we must
:06:48. > :06:51.fix the education system, they shall be workers have the skills that are
:06:52. > :06:56.demanded by firms, particularly in the manufacturing sector. Make sure
:06:57. > :06:59.that our manufacturing system is functioning, our schools are
:07:00. > :07:03.functioning, and it means that every school must have a laboratory, it
:07:04. > :07:12.must have all the instruments that you need to ensure that they are
:07:13. > :07:20.empowered to give the skills that are into demand. Mining accounts for
:07:21. > :07:24.50% of South Africa's exports. The strikes that we have seen in recent
:07:25. > :07:30.years are costing the South African economy $36 million per day. That is
:07:31. > :07:42.just one figure. What are you doing as a recognised trade union leader,
:07:43. > :07:46.to try to get control of this. Do you accept that there is a problem
:07:47. > :07:51.with strikes just running amok in some parts of the mining sector? Of
:07:52. > :07:58.course, that has been a problem. Of course, I have participated
:07:59. > :08:03.personally in processors to try to stabilise the mining industry.
:08:04. > :08:08.Including signing an argument with all of the government and business
:08:09. > :08:14.to ensure that there are greater levels of stability. I think that we
:08:15. > :08:23.have done well in stabilising the issue of strikes. What we see now is
:08:24. > :08:30.a legal strike, a protector strike, putting the demand through the
:08:31. > :08:33.union... For a higher minimum wage? For a higher minimum wage. That is
:08:34. > :08:39.naturally in any democracy. There are times when employers are unable
:08:40. > :08:43.to find a solution in negotiations, but what is more important in the
:08:44. > :08:48.context of the South African labour legislation is that most of the
:08:49. > :08:53.disputes between workers and their employers are concluded without the
:08:54. > :09:00.need to exercise power through strikes or lockouts. You do accept
:09:01. > :09:06.that some of the strikes have scared off investors. Gill Marcus, the
:09:07. > :09:13.governor of the South African central bank, said last year that an
:09:14. > :09:15.increasingly fraught labour relations environment and high wage
:09:16. > :09:20.reforms in the mining sector is likely to affect South Africa's
:09:21. > :09:24.credit ratings. Investors are being put off coming to South Africa. I
:09:25. > :09:31.don't think it is a crisis of people not wanting to invest in the mining
:09:32. > :09:35.industry as a result of the strike in the platinum sector, but I do
:09:36. > :09:39.accept that the strikes could have been resolved. I don't think any
:09:40. > :09:43.strike should last more than three weeks, because if you exercise
:09:44. > :09:48.power, it should be at a time when you know that the gap between what
:09:49. > :09:53.is on the table is such that you need power in the form of a strike
:09:54. > :10:00.to shift parties around. It is unfortunate that the strike has gone
:10:01. > :10:03.two months. This has been going offer a while, and it has cost South
:10:04. > :10:08.Africa hundreds of millions of dollars, and it is not that easy to
:10:09. > :10:14.just turn up the production again. A long time ago, if the parties
:10:15. > :10:18.involved in the negotiations were having a relationship, you must
:10:19. > :10:23.remember this is the new union that is organising the strike. This is
:10:24. > :10:29.its first national strike ever. That is in its ten years of existence.
:10:30. > :10:31.You are talking about the National Association of Mineworkers and
:10:32. > :10:38.construction union, which is not affiliated to COSATU. I am raising
:10:39. > :10:44.that issue in the context that before the strike happened this
:10:45. > :10:46.year, there had been many other worker strikes that would have
:10:47. > :10:54.damaged the relationship between the parties. I feel that at a broader
:10:55. > :10:58.political level, they should have been interventions `` there should
:10:59. > :11:02.have been interventions from eight broader level of government and a
:11:03. > :11:06.broader private sector, to force a settlement between those two
:11:07. > :11:09.parties. One of the biggest regret about the COSATU divisions, for
:11:10. > :11:16.example, is that COSATU was unable to jump into that opportunity and
:11:17. > :11:20.play a strategic role to ensure that the strike doesn't go on for so
:11:21. > :11:24.long. There have been grovelling is of discontent between members of
:11:25. > :11:30.COSATU and the ruling ANC. Take the metal workers union. That says it
:11:31. > :11:37.wants to sever the connections with the ANC. Is the ANC becoming a
:11:38. > :11:42.liability for? COSATUFrom their perspective, they have come to that
:11:43. > :11:51.conclusion, that the ANC is no longer a reliable friend. They can
:11:52. > :11:59.no longer be biased towards the interests of them. The society has
:12:00. > :12:04.been hijacked by the elites, and so the union has come to that
:12:05. > :12:10.conclusion. That is that particular metalworkers union we are talking
:12:11. > :12:13.about. What do you think? The only force that has the interests of our
:12:14. > :12:18.people at heart, a disciplined force of the left, with a bias towards the
:12:19. > :12:24.working class and the poor, it is the ANC. That is what Jacob Zuma
:12:25. > :12:32.said. I agreed with him fully when he said that. The ANC was pursuing
:12:33. > :12:38.restructuring education, healthcare, fighting rural poverty, ensuring
:12:39. > :12:46.that there is rural development, and fighting corruption. With the
:12:47. > :12:52.adoption of the new development plan by the ANC conference in September,
:12:53. > :12:56.which is now a mainstay policy of the ANC for the next five years, I
:12:57. > :13:01.will question that statement wholeheartedly. I will say, the
:13:02. > :13:06.economic policies that the government have chosen now,
:13:07. > :13:19.unfortunately it doesn't put them in the camp of a Labour friendly pro`
:13:20. > :13:24.worker proposition. You are posted at national development. The idea of
:13:25. > :13:35.that is to create new jobs. What is wrong with that? Do you disagree
:13:36. > :13:43.with the national development plan? The people will accept it. The issue
:13:44. > :13:48.is whether it is feasible using the instruments that have been chosen by
:13:49. > :13:55.the government, that that 11 million jobs will be created in 2013. This
:13:56. > :14:00.is where I come from. You disagreed with the national development plan.
:14:01. > :14:03.It says, let's have a private and public partnership to get South
:14:04. > :14:10.Africa working again. The key architect is Trevor Manuel, he was a
:14:11. > :14:16.highly acclaimed Finance Minister in South Africa from 1996 until 2009.
:14:17. > :14:26.This is a man with huge experience. Are you saying he has got it wrong?
:14:27. > :14:30.The diagnosis and the identification of the programme, the objectives,
:14:31. > :14:36.they are things that we will share, we will say they are spot`on in
:14:37. > :14:39.identifying the programmes. The enjoyment is chosen to address those
:14:40. > :14:47.programmes, we will disagree with them. `` instrument. Give me one
:14:48. > :14:53.brief example. The policies that they have chosen. I do not agree
:14:54. > :15:00.that this unemployment rate should preoccupy itself with an inflation
:15:01. > :15:06.targeting policy, setting that inflation between three and 6%. You
:15:07. > :15:09.can only achieve that if you lose the planned instrument, with high
:15:10. > :15:14.interest rates, to drive the inflation down. I think the
:15:15. > :15:19.preoccupation must be to set targets for employment, for poverty
:15:20. > :15:26.reduction, for inequality reductions. I do not agree that in
:15:27. > :15:29.the case of the public, which would be privatising everything, I think
:15:30. > :15:37.we should be building a developmental state which will use
:15:38. > :15:43.the instruments. Use the instruments by the apartheid government. You
:15:44. > :15:47.disagree with the president 's comment that the ANC best represents
:15:48. > :15:52.the interests of the working class. Let me put a point to you by a
:15:53. > :16:00.member of south Africa's workers and socialist party. He says our
:16:01. > :16:03.impression from COSATU workers, is disillusionment. Their
:16:04. > :16:07.disgruntlement is shifting to an active search for all eternity. Is
:16:08. > :16:13.this going to render COSATU irrelevant? They are going to look
:16:14. > :16:20.for the more radical answers. Those, who say, nationalise our
:16:21. > :16:27.resources. I have warned that. The leadership sadly finds comfort with
:16:28. > :16:36.the status. I am not part of a movement to challenge the
:16:37. > :16:40.fundamental foundations. Then, workers will start looking forward
:16:41. > :16:46.to relatives. If COSATU leaders defend what is happening, which is
:16:47. > :16:52.clearly wrong in the highs of the overwhelming members of its own
:16:53. > :17:00.unions, then it will find itself completely in no man's land. The
:17:01. > :17:04.founding secretary general of COSATU said in an article on the south
:17:05. > :17:12.Africa Sunday Times, on March the 23rd, that" like ghosts, they hang
:17:13. > :17:16.lifeless in COSATU bedrooms, for the first time in the history of
:17:17. > :17:22.COSATU, we have no one to turn to in our leadership". They have come to
:17:23. > :17:32.recognise in its last Congress that unless we address worrying
:17:33. > :17:38.organisational trends internally, unless we begin to address the
:17:39. > :17:42.social gap, that is developing between them and the leaders, and
:17:43. > :17:49.the members on the ground, you are going to have to content with things
:17:50. > :17:56.coming all over. Your days could be numbered? It depends on what we do
:17:57. > :18:02.about this. What are you doing? We are in a terrible situation. I come
:18:03. > :18:09.from the school of thought that says we have two be putting programmes
:18:10. > :18:15.together to address it. How can you? There is nothing wrong with that.
:18:16. > :18:20.But how can you do that? When you have been suspended since August
:18:21. > :18:24.2013 as Secretary general of COSATU? Because of an affair you had with a
:18:25. > :18:29.COSATU employee which violates rules. And there have also been
:18:30. > :18:33.questions about financial impropriety. You deny the
:18:34. > :18:36.allegations completely, and you are taking COSATU... You are selling
:18:37. > :18:40.them in the courts, and the cases going through. I do not want to go
:18:41. > :18:48.into the nitty`gritty, but there are two points: Would you be vindicated,
:18:49. > :18:54.and are due to busy involved in this infighting in COSATU to lead the
:18:55. > :18:57.workers? One of the main issues of discussions in south Africa today
:18:58. > :19:09.among trade unions is whether there should be a Congress. A federation
:19:10. > :19:13.that is a reliable friend of all the marginalised and oppressed people
:19:14. > :19:17.all over the world. A federation that is regarded to be holding the
:19:18. > :19:26.moral composts of south Africa today. A friend that speaks truth to
:19:27. > :19:31.power `` compass. How can you do that with infighting? And you are
:19:32. > :19:34.suspended? I think people were uncomfortable with the trade union
:19:35. > :19:45.movement that is truly independent, that is mobile. Around sound values
:19:46. > :19:49.of our people, we put people first. They said that the organisation is
:19:50. > :19:55.divided. It is weakened. You believe that you have been set up in a trap?
:19:56. > :20:00.And that has led to your suspension? The mistake I committed in having an
:20:01. > :20:08.affair was blown out of proportion. For political reasons. If that was
:20:09. > :20:15.people acting on the basis of a sound moral basis, people will have
:20:16. > :20:19.no issues whatsoever with the same things happening everywhere else.
:20:20. > :20:23.You think it was a trap? The fact that COSATU headquarters was sold
:20:24. > :20:29.for less than half market value, is this a trap for you again? Again,
:20:30. > :20:37.that is absolutely nonsense. It trap by who? It is wrong that one person
:20:38. > :20:41.alone is acting outside of the collective is the leadership, and
:20:42. > :20:45.can determine the price of anything. Who is setting the trap? Is it
:20:46. > :20:51.because you are seen as a critic of ANC, and the President? Is that what
:20:52. > :20:56.the reason is? When you speak to power, you make many friends but
:20:57. > :21:04.also a few enemies. When a political analyst at the electoral bill for
:21:05. > :21:08.democracy said last year that your suspension strengthens the
:21:09. > :21:15.President's faction in ANC, was he right? I would not put it that way,
:21:16. > :21:18.but surely those who find comfort in the leadership would say about the
:21:19. > :21:24.current status call of where the country is drifting too would be
:21:25. > :21:28.very happy with the applied federation, and they will not raise
:21:29. > :21:32.a single finger about the bigger standards that are unfolding in
:21:33. > :21:39.south Africa today. A respected political labour analyst, Terry
:21:40. > :21:43.Bell, says that the supposedly controlled shields of the workers
:21:44. > :21:48.were merely stepping stones for world and privilege for the few.
:21:49. > :21:58.These talks of the expense accounts of union bureaucrats. I have raise
:21:59. > :22:05.that issue. We raised it before, and we have said that we should be
:22:06. > :22:14.setting ourselves up to ensure that we are transparent. When you said at
:22:15. > :22:18.that last COSATU congress, you said that" I have access to luxuries that
:22:19. > :22:22.many in our constituency do not, workers feel that the unions and the
:22:23. > :22:26.leaders fail them by not prioritising their bread and butter
:22:27. > :22:32.issues" . Absolutely, if the union does not do anything, they had to
:22:33. > :22:37.speak about them and not us, they will not be hitting the problem. The
:22:38. > :22:43.problem in south Africa, partly, is that there is social distance. The
:22:44. > :22:48.reason why we ended up with these unions is that the workers could not
:22:49. > :22:51.identify with leaders, any more, because they seem preoccupied with
:22:52. > :22:58.some of the issues leading to political office, being a member of
:22:59. > :23:03.legislation, while they were feeling that the issues of their bread, and
:23:04. > :23:07.butter, were completely being sidelines. Briefly and finally, what
:23:08. > :23:12.is the future for you? Will you set up a new party? There have been
:23:13. > :23:19.rumours. No, I have two say this, I am committed to saying this, I am a
:23:20. > :23:29.loyal member of the ANC, but I know they have values of traditions,
:23:30. > :23:34.which are not compared to trade for anything for the position of General
:23:35. > :23:40.Secretary. That is the ANC that I know that liberated South Africa on
:23:41. > :23:46.the basis of its principal of our people first, selflessness, and our
:23:47. > :23:50.people first, and not asked first. That is the ANC that I am committed
:23:51. > :23:52.to serve as a member. Zwelinzima Vavi, thank you very much for coming
:23:53. > :24:25.on HARDtalk. Good morning, we may be in the early
:24:26. > :24:28.throes of spring, but temperatures have not dropped away too much in
:24:29. > :24:29.the night, and today starts in