:00:00. > :00:00.reached the house code of conduct, but not fiddled expenses. You are
:00:00. > :00:14.up`to`date, now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to a
:00:15. > :00:27.special edition of HARDtalk from the Ukrainian capital, Kiev. With me,
:00:28. > :00:34.Stephen Sacker. `` Stephen Sackur. The centre of the city has become a
:00:35. > :00:39.shrine for those who lost loved ones in violence. Even here, among the
:00:40. > :00:43.passion and protest there is a nagging feeling that Ukraine is
:00:44. > :00:55.sliding deeper into political and economic crisis. I think there
:00:56. > :01:04.should be... Everyone came now are the same people, in the regime,
:01:05. > :01:08.maybe not the regime of younger people, but their predecessors. The
:01:09. > :01:16.people change, but the leaders didn't. I'm afraid that
:01:17. > :01:23.south`eastern parts of Ukraine will be joined through Russian Federation
:01:24. > :01:30.in future, . To you fear Russia today? Yes. Putin is a very
:01:31. > :01:37.difficult person. He is very dangerous. Because of what we don't
:01:38. > :01:42.know, we are very worried. I have walked to the very edge of Kiev's
:01:43. > :01:47.revolutionary centre. As he passed through the last barricade you feel
:01:48. > :01:53.that the city wants to restore a sense of business as usual. It is
:01:54. > :01:57.not easy. Because the economy here is in a terrible mess. Of course,
:01:58. > :02:01.Russian troops are still massed on the eastern border. In an
:02:02. > :02:05.exclusivity to view today, I will be talking to Ukraine's interim Prime
:02:06. > :02:11.Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk. He has called his government aid kamikaze
:02:12. > :02:33.Cabinet. How does Ukraine avoid destruction? `` are a kamikaze
:02:34. > :02:39.Cabinet. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, welcome to HARDtalk. Do you consider your
:02:40. > :02:48.country to be in a state of war with Russia? We usually call our Cabinet
:02:49. > :02:56.eight wartime Cabinet. Starting with the military, and today this is
:02:57. > :03:02.economic and energy aggression. This is the most competent time for our
:03:03. > :03:07.country in our history. Let's focus first, if we are going to use the
:03:08. > :03:11.word war come up on the military situation. Starting with Crimea. Do
:03:12. > :03:20.you accept that you have lost Crimea? What I do accept, I accept
:03:21. > :03:28.that Russia violated and international law. And acted like an
:03:29. > :03:33.armed robber, grabbing the land of independent country. We do
:03:34. > :03:42.understand that to fix the Crimean issue will take quite extensive
:03:43. > :03:48.period of time. But despite this, we will never recognise annexation. And
:03:49. > :03:55.we will do everything we can in order to take over the control in
:03:56. > :03:59.Crimea. If I may, I want to move this forward from Crimea. Because as
:04:00. > :04:04.we speak, there are tens of thousands of Russian soldiers massed
:04:05. > :04:12.very close to your eastern border. What are the orders given to your
:04:13. > :04:18.forces today, in that very tense situation? The order is very clear.
:04:19. > :04:25.If Russia crosses the border, and starts military aggression, Ukraine
:04:26. > :04:31.will resist and retaliate. They will protect our country will with all
:04:32. > :04:36.means and tools we have in our hands. There will be war. If Russia
:04:37. > :04:46.wagers the war, we will defend our country. The NATO top commander in
:04:47. > :04:52.Europe said just a very short time ago that in his opinion, all the
:04:53. > :04:57.elements were in place on the Russian side. He said Russia can
:04:58. > :05:05.achieve its objectives if it so chooses in Ukraine within three or
:05:06. > :05:13.five days. This timetable is over estimated. It's not just about the
:05:14. > :05:19.military strength. That is true. That Russia is strong. This is a
:05:20. > :05:24.nuclear state with a modernised military, it has a huge army. But it
:05:25. > :05:31.is not just about the strength. It is more about the spirit. Again, we
:05:32. > :05:38.are ready to protect. We are ready to defend the country. We are ready
:05:39. > :05:42.to fight. What is your reading today of Vladimir Putin's intentions
:05:43. > :05:46.Nizhny Novgorod I know you are not speaking to him directly, but you
:05:47. > :05:52.have to make an assessment of the situation you face today. And what
:05:53. > :05:56.do you believe are Putin's intentions? As far as I understand,
:05:57. > :06:09.the President wants to be a historic person. Resurrected USSR. A new
:06:10. > :06:13.version of the USSR, 2.0. In the first step on this way he has
:06:14. > :06:18.already committed when he grabbed the territory of an independent
:06:19. > :06:23.country. But Russia and Russian President did not expect this kind
:06:24. > :06:27.of solid, strong response of the international community. As today,
:06:28. > :06:35.Russia is isolated in the UN Security Council, even in the UN
:06:36. > :06:44.G8. What is the final goal? The final goal is to be the president of
:06:45. > :06:53.the new type of soviet union. Is it doable? No. Let's talk about the
:06:54. > :07:00.international response you have just referred to. Are you satisfied with
:07:01. > :07:12.what NATO, the West, has offered you in terms of support? The US and UK
:07:13. > :07:17.and G`7 members and B5, must urgently do something in order to
:07:18. > :07:23.build`up a new system of global security. This is the first point.
:07:24. > :07:30.The second one... But have they let you down? Second one. They had just
:07:31. > :07:35.two options. Two options on the table. One of these options is to
:07:36. > :07:40.start the military operation and to have US or UK boots on the ground on
:07:41. > :07:49.the Ukrainian ground. Is it acceptable, no. No one wants to have
:07:50. > :07:53.world War three. The second option is to use a number of new tools in
:07:54. > :08:01.this new world, which would substantially press on Russia. The
:08:02. > :08:06.key tool today is financial and economic sanctions. I will talk
:08:07. > :08:12.about those in just a second. But before we leave the issue of NATO,
:08:13. > :08:17.let me ask you what you want in terms of a relationship with NATO
:08:18. > :08:24.right now. Do you want joint military exercises? NATO presence on
:08:25. > :08:33.your territory today? We want to do our best to modernise and overhaul
:08:34. > :08:37.Ukrainian defence systems. Ready to call operate with NATO on this
:08:38. > :08:41.particular issue. We already have a number of joint exercises together
:08:42. > :08:46.with our NATO partners. You must know that will just look like
:08:47. > :08:51.escalation. That may be the tipping point that sends Putin to put his
:08:52. > :08:58.forces into your country. Into the east of your country. The next
:08:59. > :09:06.message is very clear. Membership perspective is not on our... This is
:09:07. > :09:10.the corporation, how to support Ukraine to modernise the military.
:09:11. > :09:17.But going back to the membership perspective, we are very clearly
:09:18. > :09:25.saying that it is not yet on our agenda. Not yet. But Toutant's
:09:26. > :09:37.message is clear. Ukraine cannot be, should not be, ever, a member of the
:09:38. > :09:44.western, NATO military. `` Putin's. Do you now accept that? We accept
:09:45. > :09:50.that it is unacceptable for Russia to interfere in our domestic
:09:51. > :09:55.policies. That's not what I asked you. I asked you whether you would
:09:56. > :09:59.be willing to say as Prime Minister of Ukraine that Ukraine will not
:10:00. > :10:05.seek, and indeed should not seek, membership of the NATO alliance. I
:10:06. > :10:14.can say what I just said. Membership perspective is not on our radar. You
:10:15. > :10:18.mentioned what you believe to be the more important pressure point on
:10:19. > :10:24.Russia today, which is economic and financial sanctions. One of the
:10:25. > :10:47.influential figures in your country today, the governor of Donetsk, said
:10:48. > :10:52.that Ukraine is more interested in western democracy. He said that the
:10:53. > :10:58.West isn't prepared to take the sort of punitive economic measures
:10:59. > :11:09.against Putin which might harm their own interest as well. The West is
:11:10. > :11:15.doing what they can. The US stands by the Ukrainian people and proposed
:11:16. > :11:21.tough economic sanctions. Well, quite tough, but not as tough as
:11:22. > :11:30.they could be. We expect to go further. When? If you have a chance,
:11:31. > :11:37.you can ask the EU heads of state. They are doing what they can. We
:11:38. > :11:42.believe they can do more. That's not happening. Look at London. Look at
:11:43. > :11:49.the amount of Russian money and assets which flow freely in and at
:11:50. > :11:56.out of London. You know EU member states are not doing all they could.
:11:57. > :11:59.It's not just about Ukraine. It's about them. Look at the
:12:00. > :12:05.retrospective. Let's take the lessons from the history. It
:12:06. > :12:13.happened 70 or 80 years ago in Europe. And it could happen again.
:12:14. > :12:28.Who knows the final destination? Is it Donetsk, is it Kiev? Let me ask
:12:29. > :12:33.you about former president Viktor Yanukovych. He has just given an
:12:34. > :12:41.interview calling the annexation a tragedy. He said it only happened
:12:42. > :12:49.because of what he still calls a coup d'etat in Kiev. He says you and
:12:50. > :12:53.your government have been incompetent in the aftermath of his
:12:54. > :13:03.departure. What is your reaction to that? My reaction is that former
:13:04. > :13:08.president Viktor Yanukovych will be prosecuted. The Ukrainian
:13:09. > :13:15.authorities started an investigation. He is accused of mass
:13:16. > :13:23.murder. And we will bring him to justice. Viktor Yanukovych says
:13:24. > :13:30.explicitly that he gave no orders to security personnel to open fire on
:13:31. > :13:38.protesters in Independent Square. We want to get him in the courtroom,
:13:39. > :13:47.and he can easily say it during the court possession. He has the right
:13:48. > :13:50.to defend himself under the Ukrainian penalty code. Your
:13:51. > :13:56.government has supervised an investigation. The report has just
:13:57. > :14:02.come out. You believe that there is persuasive, convincing evidence that
:14:03. > :14:07.responsibility for the terrible bloodshed here in Kiev goes to the
:14:08. > :14:18.very top of the Viktor Yanukovych regime? I cannot dig into details at
:14:19. > :14:22.what we know the shore, the law enforcement officers have strong
:14:23. > :14:26.evidence that the highest Ukrainian officials were responsible for the
:14:27. > :14:32.massacre that happened in Ukraine last month. Including the President?
:14:33. > :14:37.Dilemma I am not the general prosecutor, it is up to them to
:14:38. > :14:49.bring to justice everyone responsible. It is crystal clear
:14:50. > :14:58.that Viktor Yanukovych and his close allies are personally responsible
:14:59. > :15:02.for this killing. Your determination to see a Viktor Yanukovych appear in
:15:03. > :15:10.a court of law inside this country is going to further divide and
:15:11. > :15:17.polarise this country, is it not? It is going to ring the real justice in
:15:18. > :15:23.this country. That is what people ask for, for justice. And you think
:15:24. > :15:29.that your perspective will be shared by people in Donetsk and across the
:15:30. > :15:40.east of the country? I am absolutely sure. What if you are wrong? Not
:15:41. > :15:46.this time, sir. Let us talk about the situation in Ukraine today.
:15:47. > :15:52.There are armed men loyal to movements like the right sector who
:15:53. > :15:58.are not answerable to your security forces are out on the streets and
:15:59. > :16:05.are wielding their own authority. What are you going to do about it?
:16:06. > :16:15.Let me put it bluntly. That is true, there are small groups of
:16:16. > :16:19.armed protesters. Just a short distance from here, just 80 days
:16:20. > :16:26.ago, we had activist from the right sector opened fire just of
:16:27. > :16:32.Independence Square wounding three people including the Deputy Mayor of
:16:33. > :16:35.the city. And many of his cohort still have guns and still say they
:16:36. > :16:44.are going to do whatever it takes to deliver their agenda in Ukraine. He
:16:45. > :16:51.was arrested. Everyone who possessed an illegal arm is arrested and will
:16:52. > :16:58.be arrested. We are very tough on this issue. That is your promise on
:16:59. > :17:04.those who have arms. What about those who just use divisive words?
:17:05. > :17:11.In your own cabinet, you have, I believe, three members of the far
:17:12. > :17:19.right party. In the past, leadership of that party has talked about a
:17:20. > :17:26.Jewish conspiracy, world jury taking over Ukraine. This is the mentality
:17:27. > :17:33.of a movement which you have now invited into your cabinet. You
:17:34. > :17:40.mentioned that far right party. In the past, they made a number of
:17:41. > :17:47.wrong statements but during the last year and a half, due to their
:17:48. > :17:54.participation in the Coalition, they were not allowed to state anything
:17:55. > :18:03.like this. It was a precondition to join the Coalition, no more.
:18:04. > :18:06.Russians always misuse this issue. I and the first one who is
:18:07. > :18:12.interested, not to give them any kind of excuse, I mean to Russians.
:18:13. > :18:19.Saying, look, this is the Coalition member with the far right interests
:18:20. > :18:22.and ideology. We are almost out of time and there are two more issues I
:18:23. > :18:28.want to get through. The current state of your economy. You said, not
:18:29. > :18:31.so long ago, that Ukraine is on the edge of bankruptcy. There is no
:18:32. > :18:38.question the public finances are in a terrible mess, growth has
:18:39. > :18:45.disappeared. There is going to be a serious contraction of your economy
:18:46. > :18:51.this year. How can you persuade the Ukrainian people that your
:18:52. > :18:58.government has the ability to turn the economy around 's we offer is in
:18:59. > :19:06.a tremendous economic challenge. Last year, we passed an austerity
:19:07. > :19:13.package. Is it a reform agenda? No. We need to take in order to stop the
:19:14. > :19:17.deterioration of the situation in Ukraine. The second step is to get
:19:18. > :19:22.the IMF loan and the support of the international community. The third
:19:23. > :19:32.step is to launch a, hence if reform. The initial tax reforms,
:19:33. > :19:39.good governance, to create jobs, to improve a investment climate. What
:19:40. > :19:44.we need in the short term, to survive. That is what we are doing
:19:45. > :19:51.today. If you are to make those changes, they will be desperately
:19:52. > :19:53.painful. This is the price for not having reforms in the last two
:19:54. > :20:00.decades. And we are ready to pay this price. You may be, other
:20:01. > :20:05.people, are they ready to pay? If they are already struggling with a
:20:06. > :20:10.pay freeze or no job at all, rising energy prices. Are they ready to pay
:20:11. > :20:13.yet more of a price? For the sake of their children and for the future of
:20:14. > :20:22.our country, they are ready to pay this rice. But they want to see,
:20:23. > :20:28.where is the lights in the tunnel? And I have already indicated, we
:20:29. > :20:33.need to pass this very difficult transition period in order to have a
:20:34. > :20:37.better future. There is no other solution. I have spoken to people
:20:38. > :20:44.quite a number of people in Independence Square and Kiev in the
:20:45. > :20:49.last day also and I sense a cynicism that the political leaders that
:20:50. > :20:54.Ukraine has today are not so very different from the leaders Ukraine
:20:55. > :20:59.had one year ago. And that the entire generation of leadership has
:21:00. > :21:04.failed this country and that new people, a new generation is needed.
:21:05. > :21:13.That is normal. At what is important, even when people hate
:21:14. > :21:15.their politicians, if they let their country `` love their country, if
:21:16. > :21:23.they want change in their country, they are ready. They are ready for
:21:24. > :21:29.painful reforms. You believe it is time for a clean sweep? New leaders
:21:30. > :21:42.to come to the fore. It will definitely have been. `` happen. Far
:21:43. > :21:46.from being a clean sweep, you are Tymoshenko represent the old
:21:47. > :21:53.government. Is up to the people of Ukraine to decide who is to be the
:21:54. > :22:01.next president of Ukraine. Is up to go
:22:02. > :22:16.why have you lend your support to Yulia Tymoshenko? When she decided
:22:17. > :22:21.to run for the presidency, I need to be honest, looking to my own eyes in
:22:22. > :22:24.the mirror. But four years ago, before you joined an alliance with
:22:25. > :22:29.her party, you said the following. He said the choice between
:22:30. > :22:35.Tymoshenko and Yanukovych is a choice between two evils. I see no
:22:36. > :22:40.difference. Is politics, sir. That is true. It was three years ago but
:22:41. > :22:43.the situation has changed dramatically and we have new
:22:44. > :22:50.circumstances. And you wonder why people outside of this office are
:22:51. > :22:53.cynical? Is it all just down to politics and positioning and you are
:22:54. > :22:56.willing to back someone who used the as part of the problem, not the
:22:57. > :23:03.solution? Billing back to the question you raised, I said publicly
:23:04. > :23:08.that I support Tymoshenko as a human being. And the Prime Minister, I
:23:09. > :23:16.will do everything, what is in my responsibility to have free and fair
:23:17. > :23:23.elections in Ukraine. Why are people cynical, politics is cynical. Not
:23:24. > :23:27.just in Ukraine. In the entire globe. We need to do something with
:23:28. > :23:30.a new type of politics to build up this new type of politics. Which is
:23:31. > :23:37.to be more honest, more transparent, more responsible. And I
:23:38. > :23:50.am ready to respond to every challenge. Last question. You feel
:23:51. > :24:02.for Ukrainians future? I believe in a Ukrainian future. I am expecting
:24:03. > :24:07.something else. I strongly believe in Ukraine in the future. We will
:24:08. > :24:09.leave it there. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, thank you very much for being on
:24:10. > :24:41.HARDtalk. Thank you. We have had high levels of pollution
:24:42. > :24:45.once again, affecting central and eastern parts of England but change
:24:46. > :24:50.is a foot over the next 24 hours. Clean out will be moving in across
:24:51. > :24:54.the Atlantic bringing cleanup, fresh air but they will also be some rain
:24:55. > :25:00.on the way. The change in the weather is behind this flabby area
:25:01. > :25:01.of low pressure. It is behind this low that we will start to draw in