0:00:02 > 0:00:05Now it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:22Welcome to this special HARDtalk
0:00:23 > 0:00:25with me, Zeinab Badawi, recorded in front of an audience
0:00:25 > 0:00:28coming to you
0:00:28 > 0:00:31from the BBC Radio Theatre as part of our Freedom Season.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33The acclaimed South Sudanese singer and political activist
0:00:34 > 0:00:36Emmanuel Jal was just a boy during the Sudanese civil war
0:00:37 > 0:00:40when he was captured and forced to work as a child soldier
0:00:40 > 0:00:41in the 1980s.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43He escaped and went on to see his people gain independence
0:00:43 > 0:00:45in a referendum three years ago.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48But now, South Sudan is once again in conflict
0:00:48 > 0:00:51as rival tribes descend into ethnic violence that has killed
0:00:51 > 0:00:53thousands since December and left nearly a million displaced
0:00:53 > 0:00:55and at risk of starvation.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58When will the people of South Sudan enjoy peace and freedom at last
0:00:58 > 0:01:00and is Emmanuel Jal himself free from the traumas
0:01:01 > 0:01:02of being a child soldier?
0:01:02 > 0:01:07Audience, please welcome Emmanuel Jal t oHARDtalk.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Emmanuel Jal, Sudan as it was then at war for five decades,
0:01:25 > 0:01:35nearly 2 million people died from starvation or disease.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37You yourself in your young life really only knew conflict.
0:01:37 > 0:01:42I was born in violence so peace was robbed from my childhood.
0:01:42 > 0:01:43In the beginning.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45You were not only robbed from peace, you were robbed
0:01:45 > 0:01:48of your mother, who died in the conflict.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53All my aunties died during the war, my mum too.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57Also all my uncles as well, except for two.
0:01:57 > 0:02:02And that is what I saw what war did, it robs people's souls.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05You are interesting because your father is from the Nuer
0:02:05 > 0:02:06tribe and your mother was a Dinka.
0:02:06 > 0:02:18Tell us the circumstances of the death of your mother.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22I know it was a very sad occasion, you were about six or seven.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24What actually happened, there were several village raids
0:02:24 > 0:02:27so we were running from one place to another.
0:02:27 > 0:02:36Because my mother was pregnant, I thought maybe she got shot.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38Recently my grandmother told me she died of exhaustion,
0:02:38 > 0:02:41giving birth because she ran and that is how she died.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44And your father joined what was then the Sudan People's
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Liberation Army, fighting for independence from Sudan.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49You really didn't see him because he was just off fighting
0:02:49 > 0:02:49the whole time.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53He was off fighting and he was in charge of the whole
0:02:53 > 0:02:56area at the time when we left the town.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59He was the one who collected hundreds of kids that
0:03:00 > 0:03:07were sent to school.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10He gave me up because the villagers were going to war.
0:03:10 > 0:03:18That is how I was taken to Ethiopia.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21So your father allowed you to be recruited as a child soldier
0:03:21 > 0:03:23when you are only about seven or eight?
0:03:23 > 0:03:27So I do not know if he knew if we were going to be soldiers
0:03:28 > 0:03:31because it was made attractive that we were going to go to school
0:03:31 > 0:03:33and learn how fly planes and make guns.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36All the things that people go to school for.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39So you thought you were going to get an education.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44You followed thousands of other South Sudanese children.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47You went in the border of South Sudan and Ethiopia then.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50What happened to you at this school that you thought
0:03:50 > 0:03:52you were going to get an education, what happened?
0:03:52 > 0:03:53A lot of things.
0:03:53 > 0:04:01First, when we took off, we were put on a boat and the boat
0:04:02 > 0:04:05capsized and 250 young people were put in a small boat.
0:04:05 > 0:04:06Only 50 people survived.
0:04:06 > 0:04:12My dad did not allow me to stay so they collected hundreds of young
0:04:12 > 0:04:14people and we had to walk to Ethiopia.
0:04:14 > 0:04:19Arriving there, we actually went to school for a while.
0:04:19 > 0:04:26What was really disturbing is seeing six,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28seven years old burying their own dead.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30We were not strong people, we were starving.
0:04:30 > 0:04:31Diseases are attacking us.
0:04:31 > 0:04:32Then we got trained.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35And you said the commander at the school said, from now on,
0:04:35 > 0:04:38the gun was going to be your mother and father.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40Yes.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43That is what everyone is told, the gun is your father
0:04:43 > 0:04:52and your mother.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56Even your dad, if he come along, you can put a bullet in their head.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58We are taught about the importance of because that.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01And you felt in a way, that you had a family again?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05It is like a big family because, the thing is, I did not know
0:05:05 > 0:05:07what the war was all about.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09I had my reasons why I wanted to be trained.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13My desire was to kill as many Muslims and Arabs as possible
0:05:13 > 0:05:15because that is what I thought the war was.
0:05:15 > 0:05:24I did not know what the war was about.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27In your book, you talk about one raid on a village
0:05:27 > 0:05:30where there was an old woman and you just raised your stick
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and you said, I started hitting the old woman again and again
0:05:33 > 0:05:34until my arm ached.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38This was in a place in Ethiopia, we had just finished training.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41What happened was we used to go to the rivers and steal
0:05:41 > 0:05:50their goats, their chickens.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54We were trained and then what happens, these people don't
0:05:54 > 0:05:57know where their animals disappeared to.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00We would raid their places where they make their maize
0:06:00 > 0:06:04and steal their mangoes and bananas.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Their way to fight back is they would put spears
0:06:07 > 0:06:10on the riverbanks and so what happens is when the kids come
0:06:10 > 0:06:13and jump in the river, just to swim and have
0:06:13 > 0:06:15fun, they would stick down there.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18We used to think it was crocodiles but when somebody, one of the kids
0:06:19 > 0:06:22survived came out and they found the spears down there,
0:06:22 > 0:06:25it created anger and that is when we invaded their village
0:06:25 > 0:06:28and burned it down.
0:06:28 > 0:06:33And you told that old woman to lie down or you would cut off her head?
0:06:33 > 0:06:35Then you started hitting her.
0:06:35 > 0:06:40When you look back at that period, how does that make you feel?
0:06:40 > 0:06:43The fact that you actually, not only fought but killed?
0:06:43 > 0:06:45But what happens, I was not alone.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47There were many of us.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50When you are in a group, anything can happen.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52You can scream.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57Things like this, it is hard sometimes to digest.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00It is sometimes disturbing for me.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05But do you feel that you became dehumanised by these actions?
0:07:05 > 0:07:08You talk about how you just wanted to kill as many Arabs
0:07:08 > 0:07:11and Northern Sudanese as you could and there was a man
0:07:11 > 0:07:14wearing the jalabiya, the white kaftan, and you just
0:07:14 > 0:07:19raised your machete and smashed into him.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22And you said with one of your fellow child soldiers,
0:07:22 > 0:07:24you just were laughing.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28Well, the guys were not wearing the jalabiya.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31This was on the battlefield.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34In a situation where the soldiers were still killing us.
0:07:34 > 0:07:39This was in Juba.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Sometimes when you capture people like that, you feel...
0:07:41 > 0:07:43You want them to feel the pain.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46So you don't want to shoot them easily.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49You called what they wear traditionally, the jalabiya,
0:07:49 > 0:07:58a reference to the Northern Sudanese.
0:07:58 > 0:08:05It is not the dress.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07Jalaba is the name of the Arab.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10To explain to us, why do you not see them as human beings
0:08:10 > 0:08:12when you are on the battlefield, fighting?
0:08:12 > 0:08:15You see them as being just the enemy, the oppressor.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17Because of experience.
0:08:17 > 0:08:26One time I saw my mother beaten in front of me and got humiliated
0:08:26 > 0:08:31and then my uncle tried to stop and then he was beaten as well.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36That time as a kid, I jumped to bite one of the soldier's foot.
0:08:36 > 0:08:41And then, he pressed my neck and then I blacked out.
0:08:41 > 0:08:50And so then, remembering that and seeing my mother beaten in front
0:08:50 > 0:08:54of me and our food got taken by force and one of the soldiers
0:08:54 > 0:08:58saying, it is God's will.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02That these people are going to be slaves and they have started a rebel
0:09:02 > 0:09:03movement, they will never win.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06These were seeds that were planted in my head.
0:09:06 > 0:09:12That these were terrible people.
0:09:12 > 0:09:17I did not have a word to put in now, but now I could say I was bitter
0:09:17 > 0:09:19and had a hatred for that time.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22So that is what went on in your head when you
0:09:22 > 0:09:23were killing the enemy?
0:09:23 > 0:09:25All these thoughts would come cascading back?
0:09:25 > 0:09:27You use these thoughts to justify situations.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29You use them to make yourself brave.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31For example, when you are scared, you remember how your village
0:09:31 > 0:09:34was burning and your mum was screaming.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37And you also remember how my auntie was raped as a kid.
0:09:37 > 0:09:41You use that anger to hold you to stand so that
0:09:41 > 0:09:47you do not get afraid.
0:09:47 > 0:09:48Did you feel better?
0:09:48 > 0:09:52Did the pain subside once you felt you had carried out these vengeance
0:09:52 > 0:09:54attacks, for what had happened to your family?
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Only for five minutes and then after that,
0:09:56 > 0:10:04the ghosts follow you for a long time.
0:10:04 > 0:10:15Human life is not easy.
0:10:15 > 0:10:16Maybe those who are used to it.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20If it is your first time, it is different when you have got
0:10:20 > 0:10:21somebody in cold blood.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24You are then one of the estimates, today there are still something
0:10:24 > 0:10:26like 250,000 to 300,000 child soldiers,
0:10:26 > 0:10:27somewhere in the world.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29You are now in your mid-30s.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Do you still feel haunted by what happened to you when you
0:10:32 > 0:10:36were a child soldier?
0:10:36 > 0:10:44At the moment, I was very bitter so I managed to forgive myself
0:10:44 > 0:10:48and also forgive those who have harmed me and opened my mind.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52I came to the world and realised what was killing us was not Muslims
0:10:52 > 0:10:57and Arabs, it was a bigger than what I thought.
0:10:57 > 0:11:03I realised it is economical.
0:11:03 > 0:11:04And mostly activated by political situations.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07In that process, I had to let go.
0:11:07 > 0:11:08That is when my healing began.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11You managed to escape and you were 11 when you managed
0:11:11 > 0:11:15to fall into the hands of Emma McCune who was a young
0:11:15 > 0:11:18British woman, married to Riek Machar, from the same tribe
0:11:18 > 0:11:22as you, the Nuer, the vice president who has gone on the run
0:11:22 > 0:11:23in this recent conflict.
0:11:23 > 0:11:30Being with Emma McCune, she tragically died in a car
0:11:30 > 0:11:33accident in Nairobi soon after, how far was that as part
0:11:33 > 0:11:40of the healing process?
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Emma rescued over 150 child soldiers.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45I happen to be one of those.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49She smuggled me into Kenya and put me in school.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53I did not know if she even knew that I was related to Riek.
0:11:53 > 0:11:58That was her passion, helping a child.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01My thoughts, even when I was getting rescued, my reaction was different.
0:12:01 > 0:12:11I did not want to leave my gun, I wanted to come back to war.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15I am going to this white woman's country, I thought I will learn how
0:12:15 > 0:12:20to steal a plane and then come back to war.
0:12:20 > 0:12:21I became a different soldier.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25So, now we come to what is going on now.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28You say that you are related to Riek Machar, but you're not
0:12:28 > 0:12:29related,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32you are from the same part of South Sudan as he is.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34So three years ago, South Sudan votes for independence,
0:12:34 > 0:12:37it gets it and now look at it.
0:12:37 > 0:12:38In the midst of another conflict.
0:12:38 > 0:12:4210,000 killed since December, maybe more.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Do you think everybody knows what is going on now
0:12:45 > 0:12:50in your country?
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Not everybody knows because it depends on who is putting
0:12:53 > 0:12:54the message out.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56The government has their own propaganda, speaking out.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59The people in the oppositions have their way of putting out
0:12:59 > 0:13:02but as I can put a perspective on what actually happened
0:13:02 > 0:13:09was a political situation.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12One party, party members asking the President
0:13:12 > 0:13:19to democratise our party.
0:13:19 > 0:13:20We have to make it accountable.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23We have to make things transparent and transform our country
0:13:23 > 0:13:24to be democratic.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26That is how the battle began.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29As you say, President Salva Kiir won the election and we are talking
0:13:29 > 0:13:32about President Salva Kiir from the Dinka tribe and Riek Machar
0:13:32 > 0:13:35broke away from the government and is now fighting his former allies.
0:13:35 > 0:13:42You have very clearly blamed Salva Kiir for this.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44You said on your Facebook in December last year,
0:13:44 > 0:13:46President Salva Kiir wants to pocket our freedom.
0:13:46 > 0:13:53I am not going to keep quiet.
0:13:54 > 0:13:55Yes, I actually said that.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57Because what is peace?
0:13:57 > 0:14:02Peace is when there is food on the table for children.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05When they have school, shelter, medical.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07It is when conflicts are managed in a mature manner
0:14:07 > 0:14:13and violence is prevented.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15The situation that happened, the political situation,
0:14:16 > 0:14:18it should not come and kill people.
0:14:18 > 0:14:26It should have been sorted in a political way.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28Now what is happening is that the people in jail
0:14:29 > 0:14:30are the founding fathers.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35You are talking about those who are put in jail early last year
0:14:35 > 0:14:38because Salva Kirr thought they were plotting against him.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41It is not tribal.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45It is used to cover up and get support.
0:14:45 > 0:14:55This is not a tribal war.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58It is a battle between one party not wanting to be democratic.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00The President wanting to stay in power.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03You say it is not tribal, but many say it is.
0:15:03 > 0:15:09A governor in the north-east part of South Sudan says that we see this
0:15:09 > 0:15:13as a tribal fight.
0:15:13 > 0:15:18If you look at it, you have the whole government,
0:15:18 > 0:15:21all the resources used to fight one tribe, bringing the Ugandans
0:15:21 > 0:15:27and the Congolese.
0:15:27 > 0:15:28But it is political.
0:15:28 > 0:15:36Who are the people in jail?
0:15:36 > 0:15:39The reason why they are fighting is because when the incident
0:15:39 > 0:15:42happened they killed civilians.
0:15:43 > 0:15:49The family members from the villages were angry at the government.
0:15:49 > 0:15:56But you are very much pointing the finger of blame at Salva Kirr.
0:15:56 > 0:16:02The UN Assistant Secretary General for human rights has said in January
0:16:02 > 0:16:05that we have received reports of mass killings,
0:16:05 > 0:16:15sexual violence, recruiting of child soldiers from both sides.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19The reason I point at the President, because when you are at the head
0:16:19 > 0:16:26you enjoy everything.
0:16:26 > 0:16:31Riek Machar was the vice president.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36He was running for his life.
0:16:36 > 0:16:44None of them picked up arms until they were forced.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47Civilians should not be targeted.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51Two of my brothers got killed.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55Some of my family members, I do not know where they are.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57They are civilians.
0:16:57 > 0:17:03What happens now could have been solved easily.
0:17:03 > 0:17:04You are influential.
0:17:04 > 0:17:05You have a high international profile.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08When you put the message on Facebook in December,
0:17:08 > 0:17:16it gets a negative response from this South Sudanese man.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20He says that you send out mixed messages.
0:17:20 > 0:17:32Please stay out of politics.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Another one said, you are very disappointing, you should be a man
0:17:35 > 0:17:37of all people and not taking sides.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39My side is justice, equality and freedom for all.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42My side is justice, equality and freedom for all.
0:17:42 > 0:17:47That is the side I take.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51When I take that and say the truth, people who feel that the way
0:17:51 > 0:17:55of getting their bread is threatened, they fight back.
0:17:55 > 0:18:08I only fight for justice and equality.
0:18:08 > 0:18:10Riek Machar's fight is different.
0:18:10 > 0:18:19I cannot say, I am on your side, he is a politician.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22What if he gets power and starts doing it the same?
0:18:22 > 0:18:25I am against what Salva Kirr is doing, not him.
0:18:25 > 0:18:26I was beaten by police.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28You are talking about 2012.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30You are beaten by police because they knew that
0:18:30 > 0:18:31you were Nuer.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33Why do they have to target my family?
0:18:33 > 0:18:36What does my family have to do with this?
0:18:36 > 0:18:385 million people do not have food.
0:18:38 > 0:18:391 million people are displaced.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42Thousands of people have died.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46They need assistance.
0:18:46 > 0:18:52We have refugees in the camps who do not have proper assistance.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55The head of the United Nations Mission in South Africa has been
0:18:55 > 0:18:57sounding the alarm bells.
0:18:57 > 0:19:05He says that the clock is ticking.
0:19:05 > 0:19:13Do you think that the international community should be doing more?
0:19:13 > 0:19:17An appeal has been put out for $1.3 billion in help for South Sudan.
0:19:17 > 0:19:25Only 25% has been achieved.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27The international community can do a lot by pressuring both sides
0:19:28 > 0:19:34and making them accountable.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37We do not need to allow leaders to get away with murder.
0:19:37 > 0:19:42It should be referred to the ICC.
0:19:42 > 0:19:47They should be held accountable.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Every person that has died does not have to die.
0:19:50 > 0:19:56I feel ashamed by being party to this.
0:19:56 > 0:20:01It is one party bringing the entire country to suffering.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04What about African solutions for African problems?
0:20:04 > 0:20:10As you mention, we have Ugandan forces supporting Salva Kirr.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12The East African community group is brokering the peace talks.
0:20:12 > 0:20:25Shouldn't it be better than going off to the ICC?
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Uganda saw two brothers fighting and picked one brother.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32That is not the way forward.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35That is not an African solution.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39That is an economical solution.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Everybody is after their interests.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46The only thing I see that is better is the United Nations peacekeeping
0:20:46 > 0:20:47force.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50It should be strengthened and allowed to move freely
0:20:50 > 0:20:56so that the civilians can be protected.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59What about America?
0:20:59 > 0:21:04Very close to South Sudan, helped it to independence,
0:21:04 > 0:21:08provides it with $300 million of aid every year.
0:21:09 > 0:21:10There are people like Congressman Chris Smith
0:21:10 > 0:21:14of New Jersey who is urging Barack Obama to pick up the phone
0:21:14 > 0:21:17to Salva Kirr and say, look, this has got to stop.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22Could Obama be doing more?
0:21:22 > 0:21:26He could.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30When there is peace, a lot of people want to make money.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35People are making millions.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37Civilians are dying.
0:21:37 > 0:21:38Land is getting sold cheap.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42Deals are being signed.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47It is really difficult.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51We need a higher conscious awakening.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53We need to give people the peace they are looking for.
0:21:54 > 0:21:55It is tragic.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00Only 10 million people, and yet the country is still underdeveloped.
0:22:00 > 0:22:08Only 30% of the population can read or write.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10People do not have jobs.
0:22:10 > 0:22:20And suffering continues.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24I am very optimistic that things are going to change.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28South Sudan is going to pick it up.
0:22:28 > 0:22:32At the moment, things are changing slowly.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34The war is not tribal.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38People in South Sudan are saving each other.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42If you go now to any village, if there is no army,
0:22:42 > 0:22:49nobody would be touched.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53There is a lot of evidence of killing at communal levels
0:22:53 > 0:22:59on the basis of ethnicity.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03You have a charity that means "strength" in Arabic,
0:23:03 > 0:23:05scholarships for children and trying to make sure
0:23:05 > 0:23:12that they have an education that you feel that you never had.
0:23:12 > 0:23:19Why are you doing that?
0:23:19 > 0:23:25I was given a chance to go to school, education opens your mind
0:23:25 > 0:23:30and makes you understand things differently.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33When I was educated I was able to equip myself and see the world
0:23:33 > 0:23:35in a different way.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Otherwise I would have been locked in my own world.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Because of education I am able to open my ears.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45My ears are open.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49I read and I get to learn.
0:23:49 > 0:23:57Thank you for coming on HARDtalk.