:00:00. > :00:20.since she died. It's time for HARDtalk.
:00:21. > :00:31.Welcome to HARDtalk. In a couple of months time, the World Cup will kick
:00:32. > :00:34.off in Brazil. It will be the culmination of years of preparation
:00:35. > :00:42.and millions of dollars of investment. In arenas like this one,
:00:43. > :00:48.the brand`new national stadium in Brasilia. In this country, they love
:00:49. > :00:51.their football and they love to party, so there is a huge sense of
:00:52. > :00:57.anticipation. But there's another feeling in the air dash trepidation.
:00:58. > :01:02.Because some of the World Cup steadier are not yet ready.
:01:03. > :01:08.Allegations of corruption are swirling around and there is a fear
:01:09. > :01:10.that this World Cup might not be remembered for the goals scored on
:01:11. > :01:17.the pitch but for the protests off it.
:01:18. > :01:25.My guest today is one of Brazil's in during football heroes. Known
:01:26. > :01:27.universally as Romario. This is probably the most beautiful spot in
:01:28. > :01:50.all of Brazil. He was a World Cup winner in 1994,
:01:51. > :01:55.scorer of 1000 rolls, a football in rebel with a millionaire lifestyle,
:01:56. > :02:02.who is now an outspoken socialist MP. It's funny because it's a very
:02:03. > :02:12.calm, very clean city, a very dirty politics.
:02:13. > :02:20.You might think he would be one of the World Cup's most enthusiastic
:02:21. > :02:27.actors. In fact, he is one of its harshest critics. Why? Romario,
:02:28. > :02:33.welcome to HARDtalk. The World Cup is little more than two months away
:02:34. > :02:37.and is one of Brazil's greatest footballing stars we might expect
:02:38. > :02:59.you to be feeling excited. `` as one of. Are you feeling excited?
:03:00. > :03:06.And yet you have been one of the leading voices, very critical of the
:03:07. > :03:14.way the organisation of the World Cup has gone. How are you feeling
:03:15. > :03:39.about that organisation write`down? `` right now?
:03:40. > :03:50.Kit looks as though the World Cup will cost billions of dollars. `` it
:03:51. > :03:57.looks. Many of the stadiums that have been built have cost hundreds
:03:58. > :04:04.of millions of dollars and some of it will get barely used after the
:04:05. > :04:06.World Cup has finished. If you have been in charge of organising this
:04:07. > :05:14.tournament, how would you do it? You said not so long ago that when
:05:15. > :05:18.you see in this country schools where kids get no lunch, classrooms
:05:19. > :05:24.don't have air`conditioning and where hospitals are short of beds,
:05:25. > :05:28.if we had spent 30% less on the World Cup we would have money for
:05:29. > :05:31.things that really matter. It sounds like you are very angry with the
:05:32. > :05:32.decisions made by the football authorities and the central
:05:33. > :06:14.government? Who is getting rich off this World
:06:15. > :07:03.Cup? You seem to have declared war on a
:07:04. > :07:09.number of different targets. You called the Brazilian football bosses
:07:10. > :07:20.cancer, you accused the president of fever Sepp Blatter of being a thief,
:07:21. > :07:23.the director`general of FIFA you called a blackmailer. Is that the
:07:24. > :07:24.right kind of language to be using when Brazil is under the spotlight
:07:25. > :08:32.across the world? But in saying the things you have
:08:33. > :08:34.said in such an outspoken way, you have fallen out with quite a few of
:08:35. > :08:39.Brazil's registered footballers. For example, Pele says Brazil's own
:08:40. > :08:42.people are in danger of spoiling this World Cup party. The bull
:08:43. > :08:45.should understand that football brings in money and benefits to the
:08:46. > :08:52.people of our country. `` people. Ronaldo, a great striker like
:08:53. > :09:03.yourself, says new stadiums have to be built as part of the World Cup
:09:04. > :09:10.aberration. `` preparation. You say only two voices but after all Pele
:09:11. > :09:15.is Brazil's greatest footballer. When you called him an imbecile, it
:09:16. > :10:20.seemed to show a certain lack of respect.
:10:21. > :10:25.Let's talk about the protests. In the last year we've seen serious
:10:26. > :10:30.street protest in Brazil and there is much talk of more protests being
:10:31. > :10:35.targeted at the World Cup itself. Let me be clear with you. Do you
:10:36. > :10:38.believe people should be out on the streets, protesting and
:10:39. > :11:25.demonstrating at the World Cup? Is there not a danger that you are
:11:26. > :11:31.staring things up, by saying people have the right and should protest,
:11:32. > :11:34.using the World Cup as a focus for their anger? You at creating a
:11:35. > :11:39.situation which could lead to violence, could lead to real danger.
:11:40. > :12:34.`` you are creating. You have been very critical during
:12:35. > :12:41.this interview of the football authorities in Brazil and FIFA. Do
:12:42. > :13:52.you see anything positive coming out of the World Cup for Brazil?
:13:53. > :13:57.In Rio, the legendary and now completely revamped Marek Khanna
:13:58. > :14:07.Stadium, where the World Cup final will be held, is already staging
:14:08. > :14:14.Brazilian clubfoot all. The organisers have been stunned by
:14:15. > :14:17.Romario's criticism. I've come to meet the deputy sports minister who
:14:18. > :14:21.is responsible for the World Cup, Luis Fernandes. Does he see Brazil
:14:22. > :14:33.hosting the tournament as a blessing or a curse?
:14:34. > :14:37.Luis Fernandez, welcome to a HARDtalk. Thank you very much. Do
:14:38. > :14:43.you feel you have the most high`pressure job in the zeal? It is
:14:44. > :14:48.a lot of pressure but I am very proud of the job that I have because
:14:49. > :14:53.I think we will deliver a great World Cup. That is very positive, at
:14:54. > :14:59.your boss said, it is true, everything could have been done
:15:00. > :15:06.better. In life, everything can be done better. We have to see that it
:15:07. > :15:11.will be a fantastic cup. Brazil is the nation of football. We are going
:15:12. > :15:17.to have a huge party here. We hope that will culminate with our winning
:15:18. > :15:20.the World Cup. Let's be honest, what could have been done better? Now
:15:21. > :15:24.that you look at the use of preparation with just a couple of
:15:25. > :15:31.months let, what did you get wrong? I think we should have been part of
:15:32. > :15:34.the organising committee earlier. We were brought into the local
:15:35. > :15:42.organising committee only to use ago. You as the government?
:15:43. > :15:46.Exactly. Initially, it was private and I don't think that is the best
:15:47. > :15:49.arrangement for a World Cup because you have to have public authorities
:15:50. > :15:54.involved because of what of the work depends on involvement of the
:15:55. > :15:58.authorities. When you talk about a lot of work, the truth is that some
:15:59. > :16:02.important work still needs doing. There are three stadiums which are
:16:03. > :16:06.not yet completed. There are questions about whether at least one
:16:07. > :16:12.of them will be completed on time. We are pretty sure that all will be
:16:13. > :16:17.completed on time. And with the quality needed to host World Cup
:16:18. > :16:20.games. One of the stadiums is practically ready, we are just
:16:21. > :16:27.waiting for the President agenda to ignore credit. It and then we will
:16:28. > :16:32.have till the end of April. We have got to talk money because it is
:16:33. > :16:37.clear this is a very expensive projects for Brazil. The total of
:16:38. > :16:45.expenditure is expected to be maybe $13 billion. On the stadia
:16:46. > :16:51.themselves, 3 billion or more. Is that value for money? Yarmouk first
:16:52. > :16:54.of all, thank you for your question because you have to separate
:16:55. > :16:59.investment that R4 locations of the World Cup. The other investments
:17:00. > :17:07.associated which are not World Cup investments, we have invested in
:17:08. > :17:11.airports, public transport, Port modernisation, Telecom indications
:17:12. > :17:13.infrastructure which is all infrastructure that the country
:17:14. > :17:18.needed to promote its development and which would have to be done
:17:19. > :17:23.independent of the World Cup. I understand your point but I
:17:24. > :17:26.carefully said at least 3 billion order the stadia themselves. Some of
:17:27. > :17:32.them built in cities where the local teams attract just a couple of,000
:17:33. > :17:37.supporters for their average games. Romario, one of the most influential
:17:38. > :17:43.players in Brazil says it is a criminal waste of money. Romario is
:17:44. > :17:52.my idol but I do not agree with him on that respect. First of all,
:17:53. > :17:58.besides the fact, if we break that down Pirtek Stadium, it is on the
:17:59. > :18:01.average a cost of stadiums for example, what you spent in Wembley
:18:02. > :18:09.or what is being spent for the Euro cup. The point about Wembley is it
:18:10. > :18:13.is well used throughout the year, filled with 80,000 spectators. Some
:18:14. > :18:19.of the stadiums will be white elephant which will local football
:18:20. > :18:23.teams will not be able to fill, even close. I do not agree with that
:18:24. > :18:31.assessment. It is completely wrong. The stadium in Brasilia had in the
:18:32. > :18:36.second semester of 2013, after the Confederation cup, twice as much
:18:37. > :18:41.public in its various events than the entire public United in the
:18:42. > :18:47.years before the cup. All of the stadiums are designed as
:18:48. > :18:51.multipurpose arenas. They host not only football games but they host
:18:52. > :18:57.shows, conference centres, convention centres and have been
:18:58. > :19:00.effective. It is a concrete example. When Romario says there is something
:19:01. > :19:06.rotten, something corrupt at the heart of this World Cup operation in
:19:07. > :19:13.Brazil, he says, frankly, people have been taking a cut, construction
:19:14. > :19:17.companies have done well. The people of Rosell who need hospitals and
:19:18. > :19:22.schools are bitterly disappointed. What do you say? Ella TRANSLATION:
:19:23. > :19:28.That is a false contradiction because there is no contradiction
:19:29. > :19:32.between investing in stadiums, in airport modernisation and health and
:19:33. > :19:45.education. Over the preparation period, I will give you a figure. We
:19:46. > :19:52.have invested 400 and 50 billion in education and 320 billion in health.
:19:53. > :19:59.The total amount of the stadiums is a pillion. There is no conflict
:20:00. > :20:03.between investing in the stadiums, growing investment in health and
:20:04. > :20:11.education. You are full of figures. How much money has been lost to kick
:20:12. > :20:16.back deals and corruption? We have a rigourous control system in place in
:20:17. > :20:24.Brazil. We have it systems at the federal, state and city level. They
:20:25. > :20:30.ordered very closely every single Euro that is invested in these
:20:31. > :20:35.stadiums. How much? How much has been lost to corruption and
:20:36. > :20:39.kickbacks? I do not think anything has been lost to corruption. And if
:20:40. > :20:44.it is, if something is discovered it will be effectively punished and
:20:45. > :20:47.reversed. Why do you think, according to the opinion polls I
:20:48. > :20:54.have read in the resilient press, that the support for the World Cup
:20:55. > :21:02.has dipped from 80% just a year or so ago to 50% now. Why is that
:21:03. > :21:06.happening? Ella TRANSLATION: In any major sporting event, you face that
:21:07. > :21:12.in the Olympics in London. You have a curve with very initial strong
:21:13. > :21:17.support that it is down and it starts to recover when the event
:21:18. > :21:20.starts to happen. That happened in London in 2012. We are sure that
:21:21. > :21:25.will happen and is starting to happen now in Brazil. We are a
:21:26. > :21:30.country passionate for football in interest football will motivate and
:21:31. > :21:34.engage our population in support of the World Cup. You are being very
:21:35. > :21:38.positive. What many people in Rozelle, maybe it yourself
:21:39. > :21:43.privately, are concerned about is the real possibility of protests,
:21:44. > :21:49.mass demonstrations targeting the World Cup. Romario says he is
:21:50. > :21:57.absolutely supportive of people who want to use the World Cup to make
:21:58. > :22:00.social protest. Argue? We are a democratic country and recognise the
:22:01. > :22:08.right to freedom of expression. You are happy to see Brazilians marching
:22:09. > :22:15.on some of the stadia, making a big noise, of political protest at the
:22:16. > :22:20.time of the World Cup? I will repeat. We are a democratic country
:22:21. > :22:24.and recognise everyone's rights to freedom of expression including
:22:25. > :22:27.demonstrations. We lived under a dictatorship and the generation in
:22:28. > :22:32.government today was brought up in resistant to the dictatorship,
:22:33. > :22:36.fighting for freedom. We recognise that freedom. What we cannot accept
:22:37. > :22:42.as a state are acts of violence, riots, vandalism because protesters
:22:43. > :22:47.themselves do not support that type of action. We started out by talking
:22:48. > :22:52.about pressure. We have discussed the feelings of the Brazilian
:22:53. > :22:57.public, may be somewhat mixed at the tournament approaches. You ever
:22:58. > :23:02.think to yourself that maybe, boosting the World Cup here has
:23:03. > :23:06.become more of a curse than a blessing? Ella TRANSLATION: I think
:23:07. > :23:12.it is a historic opportunity for Brazil. We are in a different Jewish
:23:13. > :23:19.and the England with the Olympic Games. England is a rich country. It
:23:20. > :23:23.set up infrastructure which sustained its development. And that
:23:24. > :23:29.were used during the Olympic Games at the YouTube transport systems. I
:23:30. > :23:35.take your point. Maybe we are discovering that Brazil is not
:23:36. > :23:38.ready. We will prove the world we are ready and proved that developing
:23:39. > :23:43.countries should host major event because they have a growing voice in
:23:44. > :23:49.the world. If you see what is happening in the world, who is
:23:50. > :23:51.growing more, what are the new political polls saying. Developing
:23:52. > :23:57.countries have to be brought into the picture. So making major will
:23:58. > :24:04.global sporting events rich man's parties is not a good alternative.
:24:05. > :24:06.Luis Fernandez I thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:07. > :24:46.Thank you. It was a wet start to the week for
:24:47. > :24:48.many parts of the UK but things are