:00:00. > :00:23.he fired through the bathroom door believing she was an intruder.
:00:24. > :00:29.Welcome to a special edition of hard talks from Brazil with me, Stephen
:00:30. > :00:38.Sackur. Today I have come to the very edge of Rio `` HARDtalk. If you
:00:39. > :00:43.look beyond the vast buildings here you see a remnant of what was once
:00:44. > :00:49.one of Brazil's greatest natural assets, the Atlantic Forest, which
:00:50. > :00:56.once covered 15% of this country's landmass, but most of it has now
:00:57. > :01:00.disappeared as a result of human settlement, industrialisation and
:01:01. > :01:08.commercial agriculture, all of which has transformed Brazil. These small
:01:09. > :01:13.pockets of woodland are all that's left of the Atlantic Forest. UNESCO
:01:14. > :01:20.designated it a world biosphere reserve to be protected and
:01:21. > :01:26.carefully managed. Campaigners for the protection of Brazil's Forest
:01:27. > :01:31.and the indigenous life within them have been fighting a losing battle
:01:32. > :01:37.for decades. Of the odds are stacked against them because economic and
:01:38. > :01:42.political power in this country lies firmly in the hands of people whose
:01:43. > :01:49.focus is on exploitation, not conservation. I was joined on my
:01:50. > :01:55.hike by Professor Fernando Fernandez, a biologist at the
:01:56. > :01:59.federal university of Rio and he has been studying the long`term effects
:02:00. > :02:04.of deforestation. What has happened to the Atlantic Forest? The Atlantic
:02:05. > :02:10.Forest was among the resident post where most of the European people
:02:11. > :02:14.settled. If had the best agricultural land, the most fertile
:02:15. > :02:25.land, so most of the population settled here. Then there was a lot
:02:26. > :02:30.of deforestation and so on. It was destroyed massively. Now the part
:02:31. > :02:37.that is most destroyed is not in the east where the settlement was before
:02:38. > :02:43.in the beginning of the settlement, the north`east which produced a lot.
:02:44. > :02:51.And the Forest has completely gone? The estate is nearly completely
:02:52. > :02:57.gone. The south of Baihia is completely gone. Here, a short walk
:02:58. > :03:01.literally from the city of Rio, it is a beautiful place, it is a
:03:02. > :03:07.forest, but it isn't the forest that it used to be. We can hear a bird
:03:08. > :03:14.but there's very little wildlife here. Yes. Many animals that were
:03:15. > :03:22.here are not here any more. Like Jaguars and others. They are found
:03:23. > :03:28.in the forest in very few places nowadays. The ecosystem has changed?
:03:29. > :03:35.It has changed completely. And this is for two reasons. One is the
:03:36. > :03:42.fragmentation of the forest, what is left the remnants get more isolated
:03:43. > :03:46.from each other as the landscapes develop through agriculture and so
:03:47. > :03:51.on. And the other is hunting. Hunting has been very common in the
:03:52. > :03:56.past, it is still very common, it is illegal, of course, but there is
:03:57. > :04:03.still lots of hunting. You have in the fragments this synergy between
:04:04. > :04:07.two factors, small populations, small isolated populations, and
:04:08. > :04:14.hunting pressure. And what you get is a very impoverished forest, an
:04:15. > :04:21.empty Forest. Since European colonisation there's been constant
:04:22. > :04:27.battle in Brazil between the desire to settle, develop, industrialise,
:04:28. > :04:35.urbanised, and on the other hand the desire to protect this amazing,
:04:36. > :04:40.unique natural environment. Do you think Brazil now has the balance
:04:41. > :04:45.right between those two forces? No, I don't think so. In Brazil the
:04:46. > :04:52.pressure to develop is still very big. Of course this is quite
:04:53. > :04:57.understandable because we have pressing social and economic needs
:04:58. > :05:04.in Brazil. So Brazil wants very much to develop, it looks to develop. But
:05:05. > :05:14.we also want a good standard of living. And many social problems to
:05:15. > :05:18.solve. In the future it is important to preserve natural resources for
:05:19. > :05:24.everything, industry, agriculture, enjoyment, science and technology,
:05:25. > :05:27.for many things, quality of life. The country that preserves natural
:05:28. > :05:32.resources will be in a much better situation. If we don't take good
:05:33. > :05:38.care of our resources now I think we will have very little to offer in
:05:39. > :05:42.the future. The question is, do you see the political will in Brasilia,
:05:43. > :05:48.in the Brazilian government, to prevent that happening? I don't
:05:49. > :05:53.think there is the necessary amount of political will. I think of course
:05:54. > :06:00.Brazil is a very big country with a very complicated political situation
:06:01. > :06:03.and there are some very fierce people in private organisations
:06:04. > :06:10.fighting for the environment. I think the dominant way of seeing
:06:11. > :06:13.things is that the environment is a small priority compared to the
:06:14. > :06:21.economic needs and the social needs. I think people don't realise that,
:06:22. > :06:29.there is a large pressure to develop quickly. So the environment is
:06:30. > :06:37.always a lower priority, it is always the thing that lags behind.
:06:38. > :06:41.Brasilia... Brazil's extraordinary Modernist capital is the place to
:06:42. > :06:47.come to test the will of the government here to protect this
:06:48. > :06:52.country's unique biodiversity. Are the Brazilian leaders prepared to do
:06:53. > :06:57.whatever it takes to ensure the Amazon rainforest does not go the
:06:58. > :07:10.same way as the Atlantic forest. My guest today is Brazil's Environment
:07:11. > :07:14.Minister, Izabella Teixeira. Is the rainforest safe in her hands?
:07:15. > :07:19.Izabella Teixeira, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much.
:07:20. > :07:24.Brazil has this unique global role, it is the custodian of the world's
:07:25. > :07:29.greatest natural defence against climate change, the rainforest, the
:07:30. > :07:36.Amazon rainforest, do you resent the pressure that comes with that role?
:07:37. > :07:40.Lets see. I think first we have pressure from Brazilian society, not
:07:41. > :07:43.only from the world. What we have today in Brazilian society,
:07:44. > :07:47.everybody understands that we need to protect the Amazon forest. We
:07:48. > :07:52.need to know what the Amazon forest means. You have the Amazon Bion,
:07:53. > :07:58.that is not only in Brazil, it goes through five countries as well. But
:07:59. > :08:08.the bulk of it is in Brazil. About 60% is in Brazil, OK? And the Amazon
:08:09. > :08:12.represents around 49% of the total of the Territorian of Brazil. It's
:08:13. > :08:18.interesting to note about this, about the challenges. It's huge,
:08:19. > :08:22.absolutely huge `` territory of. Therefore it is a burden, and
:08:23. > :08:29.frankly it seems your government finds it impossible to control, to
:08:30. > :08:37.thoroughly controlled development within. That is the opposite today.
:08:38. > :08:43.What we are doing in Brazil, we have changed... In 2004, it's important
:08:44. > :08:50.to understand the historical data, in 2004 you had the deforestation
:08:51. > :08:55.rate in the Amazon in Brazil at around 27,000 square kilometres. Per
:08:56. > :09:01.year? Was being lost from the rainforest? In 2004. I understand
:09:02. > :09:03.that and I know you're going to tell me you've improved the figures
:09:04. > :09:08.dramatically and in recent years it's gone down to 4000 or 5000
:09:09. > :09:13.square kilometres. But this is the big but. In the last year the
:09:14. > :09:20.results have not been so good at all. What we saw between 2012 and
:09:21. > :09:28.2013 was a very alarming rise in deforestation. I don't agree there
:09:29. > :09:35.is a very alarming data. Excuse me, for a minister who said, " My goal
:09:36. > :09:42.is to eliminate the pro` station... " the fact is you have failed. I
:09:43. > :09:47.have not failed `` eliminate deforestation. You have the
:09:48. > :09:50.Brazilian national plan to eliminate illegal deforestation, our goal is
:09:51. > :10:01.to achieve it in 2020. OK, we have a process that we are aiming to reduce
:10:02. > :10:05.illegal deforestation. By 2020? Yes. If that is your desire and that is
:10:06. > :10:10.your commitment, why is it that just two years ago you relaxed the
:10:11. > :10:18.so`called forest code which actually gave a new freedom to loggers to cut
:10:19. > :10:23.down trees, and actually offered an amnesty to illegal loggers,
:10:24. > :10:26.something which actually most Brazilians regarded as completely
:10:27. > :10:32.unreasonable. Lets see. First of all, I didn't relax. Second it's not
:10:33. > :10:37.true that the new forest code allows illegal logging, it is the opposite.
:10:38. > :10:42.What message does it send when you offer an amnesty to illegal
:10:43. > :10:46.loggers... Let's see, we have a law in Brazil, you have private land,
:10:47. > :10:52.it's probably the same in your country, if your private land is in
:10:53. > :10:56.the Amazon region you need to preserve 80% of this property
:10:57. > :11:04.without managers. What do you think about this? You call this a legal
:11:05. > :11:09.reserve. It was maintained. You have permanent areas to protect along the
:11:10. > :11:15.rivers. You maintain this. All the requirements that the former forest
:11:16. > :11:18.code established in the past to protect biodiversity and protect the
:11:19. > :11:22.areas that are so important for the conservation. You said at the
:11:23. > :11:25.beginning of the interview that you are watched very closely within
:11:26. > :11:31.Brazil by the people, the NGOs, but Greenpeace, Paolo, one of the
:11:32. > :11:36.leaders of Greenpeace in Brazil, said the government should not be
:11:37. > :11:42.surprised by the scandalous increase in deforestation last year. Hay said
:11:43. > :11:47.they shouldn't be surprised because their own actions caused it `` he.
:11:48. > :11:56.Let's see, first of all the government didn't cause it. He was
:11:57. > :12:01.very disappointed in you. He's not. It shows you have... It is the same
:12:02. > :12:06.increase and the same rate you have in 2007/2008. If you compare the
:12:07. > :12:16.data, 2000 and 72 2008, you have the same percentage increasing ``
:12:17. > :12:20.2007/. What are the costs? At the rate today you are considering the
:12:21. > :12:26.legal activities and the need to separate this. I invited the states
:12:27. > :12:32.to identify the cause in a meeting. The states are responsible to
:12:33. > :12:37.analyse the illegal deforestation in the Amazon reason. I need to
:12:38. > :12:41.mobilise and co`ordinate all of them to understand what are the costs but
:12:42. > :12:47.it is important to separate the economic divisions versus forest
:12:48. > :12:51.code. You talk about the economic dynamics in the region, you mean the
:12:52. > :12:54.fact new highways are being built into the Amazon region, which
:12:55. > :12:58.encourages more economic development, the government is still
:12:59. > :13:06.pushing Brazil and an agricultural superpower, all of these are
:13:07. > :13:13.pressures `` as an. Let's make it clear. You have legal authorisation
:13:14. > :13:19.to remove natural vegetation, not only forest. The Amazon is not only
:13:20. > :13:27.tropical forest, you have all vegetarian pipes. You can remove
:13:28. > :13:32.this legally. `` types. This is different when you have
:13:33. > :13:35.environmental crime and illegal deforestation. Do you not accept,
:13:36. > :13:39.and this is a fundamental question for the Brazilian government, do you
:13:40. > :13:46.not accept the perception inside Brazil and outside Brazil that the
:13:47. > :13:51.political leadership, particularly in Congress in this country, is
:13:52. > :13:56.heavily influenced by the logging interest, by the commercial farming
:13:57. > :14:01.industry, and by the extractive industries. And all of those groups
:14:02. > :14:06.are very keen to get their hands on more territory inside the Amazon.
:14:07. > :14:13.Let's see, first of all it is important to understand your
:14:14. > :14:16.country's a democracy. You have a little force that want to spread
:14:17. > :14:23.their interests and this is a natural part of democracy. ``
:14:24. > :14:28.political forces. This is democracy. We need to face the problems, we are
:14:29. > :14:32.a developing country, we need to face the problems and put
:14:33. > :14:36.environmental agenda in the middle of the interests of developing
:14:37. > :14:43.Brazil and to show that it is really important to protect the
:14:44. > :14:48.environment. Those are very powerful words. What about actions? What
:14:49. > :14:52.about defending environmentalists when they face real threats of
:14:53. > :14:55.intimidation and violence? They are making a stand. You have lost in
:14:56. > :15:05.Brazil hundreds of environmentalists who have been killed. We have social
:15:06. > :15:11.and environmental complex. Why is the government allowing still in the
:15:12. > :15:15.last two years some of your most prominent defenders of the
:15:16. > :15:23.rainforest and indeed the Atlantic Forest to be murdered? What did the
:15:24. > :15:31.government do about it? The government is working to try to
:15:32. > :15:36.protect them. We are trying to avoid the conflict. I have been checking
:15:37. > :15:40.the record. Most of these murders, and more than 360 Brazilian
:15:41. > :15:45.environmentalists have been murdered in the last decade, most of these
:15:46. > :15:51.crimes never produce a conviction. It is important to understand that
:15:52. > :15:58.they have been many Brazilian governments to protect the people
:15:59. > :16:06.that surfactant the forests. They're not being protected, there being
:16:07. > :16:21.murdered. Surely you should be going after the people who are issuing
:16:22. > :16:37.these things. Are you sure about this? Were the arrests? During the
:16:38. > :16:42.deforestation, to Brazil we have around 4000 lawsuits against these
:16:43. > :16:51.people. You have a lot of operations with Federal police in Brazil to put
:16:52. > :16:54.and arrest these people. Can you sit here and say that environment of
:16:55. > :17:02.activists fighting to preserve the rainforest in Brazil can feel truly
:17:03. > :17:09.safe? If you consider all of the public thoughts, they can be safe.
:17:10. > :17:12.What the minister of environment can do, we are doing. Would you can do
:17:13. > :17:20.is a Federal government, we are doing. We are working hard to
:17:21. > :17:26.protect not only the environment but Brazilian that wants to protect the
:17:27. > :17:30.environment. Minister, let me ask you about Brazil's environmental
:17:31. > :17:37.challenge in a different way. Let's think about the economic costs of
:17:38. > :17:42.conservation, of doing what the international community want you to
:17:43. > :17:50.do, particularly concerning the rainforests. Your former president
:17:51. > :17:56.said this in a HARDtalk interview, I do not want any gringo asking us to
:17:57. > :18:01.allow animus on resident to die of hunger under a tree. We want to
:18:02. > :18:05.preserve the trees but the rich nations will have to pay the price
:18:06. > :18:11.of this preservation. Is that still the strategy? That the rich world
:18:12. > :18:16.must pay you to do the right thing by the rainforest. You have to
:18:17. > :18:24.consider this in a different context. At the national level in
:18:25. > :18:32.Brazil today we have huge public policies to eradicate poverty and to
:18:33. > :18:38.promote debate and to propose new ways for developments to work. How
:18:39. > :18:46.to predict production and the forests. I am getting is an element
:18:47. > :18:51.of blackmail. Was listening to the rich world that unless you give us
:18:52. > :18:58.and billions of dollars we will eventually cut down all of the
:18:59. > :19:02.trees. No, it is not true. The law in Brazil allows us to use the
:19:03. > :19:09.territory but that you need to protect the forests. You have to
:19:10. > :19:15.maintain the forests to use your property, your private property.
:19:16. > :19:18.This is the precondition of the forest code. You are not relying on
:19:19. > :19:28.the support of Western nations any more? I have a second part. What you
:19:29. > :19:34.expect from the rich world? This is part of the climate negotiations.
:19:35. > :19:37.We'll talk later about a deal. Will have a responsibility and we have to
:19:38. > :19:44.understand what it for developing countries. We expect that the
:19:45. > :19:47.historical responsibilities acknowledged and how we can have a
:19:48. > :19:52.global agreement on climate change that considers the data and to
:19:53. > :19:56.understand what of the new economic measures that must adopt to protect
:19:57. > :20:04.the forest and to promote development in our country. I am
:20:05. > :20:08.today, this society pays for it. It is not your society that pays for
:20:09. > :20:19.it. This is very important because we have the Amazon on Front, and in
:20:20. > :20:22.their case you do not have a donation from the United Kingdom.
:20:23. > :20:28.Just an example. You are doing this, paying for this in a voluntary
:20:29. > :20:32.commitment, not a mandatory commitment. We are a developing
:20:33. > :20:38.country and we are doing this because we believe that we need to
:20:39. > :20:41.do this. When you have the international negotiations on
:20:42. > :20:45.climate change, of course developing countries like Brazil will be part
:20:46. > :20:52.of it in a strategic way to voluntarily reduce our emissions.
:20:53. > :20:56.How can we have a balanced approach economically to manage this
:20:57. > :21:00.considering the future? You personally are very involved in
:21:01. > :21:12.international negotiations to try, over the next year, to reach a new
:21:13. > :21:14.binding international treaty. A treaty on controlling emissions. The
:21:15. > :21:22.world wants to know whether Brazil is prepared to sign up to binding
:21:23. > :21:27.targets and cuts. If you have a global agreement with all of the
:21:28. > :21:33.countries on board, why not? If you want a global agreement on climate
:21:34. > :21:37.change, it is important that we can have the United States, not just
:21:38. > :21:45.China but also India. India will play a strategic role for any
:21:46. > :21:51.generation after 2020. If you are not able to manage all of the
:21:52. > :21:56.political engagement from all the countries, including developing
:21:57. > :22:03.countries, emerging economies, and understand what the challenges offer
:22:04. > :22:08.economic growth and job generation. If you are not able to manage this,
:22:09. > :22:13.it is impossible for a country like Brazil to do its part. We are
:22:14. > :22:19.working hard on it without understanding what the consequences
:22:20. > :22:23.after the world. Is it enough? No. But this we need the engagement
:22:24. > :22:32.other countries and we believe that we can do this. You can do this, you
:22:33. > :22:36.say. You have been involved in this process for many years. The idea is
:22:37. > :22:41.to get the new post` Kyoto international treaty in Paris next
:22:42. > :22:47.year, yes or no? Do you believe it will happen? I am working hard to do
:22:48. > :22:54.this. You need a pragmatic approach considering that we have positions
:22:55. > :23:03.from countries that do not want to pay at the same pace that the
:23:04. > :23:07.negotiations require. We have a big challenge for the leaders, the
:23:08. > :23:13.political leaders, not only for the governments but for the society as
:23:14. > :23:17.well. I am working hard to do this. I can assure everyone that I'm very
:23:18. > :23:24.hard. I hope that I can influence it, this year and the next. We have
:23:25. > :23:57.two and there but Izabella Teixeira thank you for being on HARDtalk.
:23:58. > :24:01.Most of us had a lovely day on Tuesday with a good deal of
:24:02. > :24:05.sunshine. It looks pretty quiet across the United Kingdom over the
:24:06. > :24:07.next few days. A lot of dry and bright weather to be found. It is
:24:08. > :24:08.not dry