:00:18. > :00:29.Welcome to HARDtalk from Rio, with me, Stephen Sackur. I have come to
:00:30. > :00:32.one of the city's shanties. They have seen no massive investment
:00:33. > :00:42.going into this footballing showpiece. It is pretty basic here.
:00:43. > :00:48.There is a rising cost in living, basic public services, and a
:00:49. > :00:51.pervasive sense of insecurity. Perhaps the biggest issue for the
:00:52. > :00:57.tens of millions who live in Brazil's favelas and shanties is
:00:58. > :01:02.security. Many of these neighbourhoods have been controlled
:01:03. > :01:06.for years by criminal gangs. The government is trying to control this
:01:07. > :01:11.with a police crackdown. They call it 'pacification', but police here
:01:12. > :01:24.did not want to talk about it. How are things here? It is often brutal
:01:25. > :01:28.and controversial. There are plenty of people here who say that the
:01:29. > :01:39.police are little different from the criminals.
:01:40. > :01:47.This community activist guided me through the narrow alleyways of this
:01:48. > :01:51.favela. She has personal reasons to view the police with suspicion. Her
:01:52. > :02:30.son died in custody. Police have a duty to make these
:02:31. > :02:35.neighbourhoods safe. And, we know that drug dealers, criminal gangs,
:02:36. > :02:37.they are working in these areas. Surely, the police had to come in
:02:38. > :03:07.and get the criminals out? To Rio, and the government says that
:03:08. > :03:11.if the police cannot control these areas and keep the peace, they are
:03:12. > :03:27.going to send the army in. How do you feel about that?
:03:28. > :03:32.Brazil is a growing economic power, many wealthy Brazilians find it
:03:33. > :03:41.convenient to ignore what happens in the favelas. My guest today wants to
:03:42. > :03:44.change that. Jose Padilha is one of the most successful filmmakers, and
:03:45. > :03:51.his films portray the violent reality of neighbourhoods like this
:03:52. > :04:01.one. Are Brazilians now ready to face some painful truths?
:04:02. > :04:08.Jose Padilha, welcome to HARDtalk. You are known in Brazil and around
:04:09. > :04:14.the world as a teller of stories from the favelas, the shanty towns.
:04:15. > :04:21.As a kid, you were not raised in a favela. You were a middle-class kid,
:04:22. > :04:25.what happened? First off, anyone who is raised in a favela is very
:04:26. > :04:32.unlikely to end up in the film business. It is very hard for you.
:04:33. > :04:36.That is the thing about this country, if you are born and raised
:04:37. > :04:42.in a favela, you are going to have access... Or you are not going to
:04:43. > :04:46.have access to a good educational system, you will not be in a
:04:47. > :04:50.position where you can get a movie made, and money to finance it. In a
:04:51. > :04:56.certain sense, all of Brazilian cinema is made from people who are
:04:57. > :05:04.from middle upper classes. That is it. It is a sad fact. Is that still
:05:05. > :05:13.true today? Yes, it is not 100%, there are always exceptions, but,
:05:14. > :05:20.yes. It is true even today. I am not from the slums, as other filmmakers
:05:21. > :05:23.are not. I do not think you have to be from the slum to make a movie
:05:24. > :05:29.about the situation and what happens there. As you do not need to be an
:05:30. > :05:37.indigenous person to be an anthropologist. What made you care
:05:38. > :05:41.so much? What made you so interested in the lives of people with whom you
:05:42. > :05:51.had no direct connection at all with Brazil? It is a funny thing. Rio has
:05:52. > :05:57.been here for a while. It is not a city that segregates poverty. The
:05:58. > :06:05.slums, they are huge, they are homes to 100,000 people and are in the
:06:06. > :06:10.middle of the city. You can be in a fancy area of town and right next to
:06:11. > :06:13.you, there is a slum. In Rio, you live in your daily life, if you are
:06:14. > :06:21.upper-middle-class, but you also see poverty all the time. You see street
:06:22. > :06:30.kids, people who live in slums, they come and work for you, in your
:06:31. > :06:37.houses, schools, and so it is not... It does not have a segregation.
:06:38. > :06:40.Perhaps it has mental segregation? Yes, one of the things I think that
:06:41. > :06:49.happens is you create a psychological mechanism that allows
:06:50. > :06:54.you to deal with that. How do you accept the fact that you are part of
:06:55. > :07:04.a small minority, when you live in a gigantic city in which the majority
:07:05. > :07:07.of people don't? It becomes an ethical problem for you. It also
:07:08. > :07:13.becomes a pragmatic problem, because it has a lot of violence. I think
:07:14. > :07:17.you learn not to see. With this documentary... That was your
:07:18. > :07:21.breakthrough film? It touched a nerve in Brazil, because it told the
:07:22. > :07:25.story of a young man, a very troubled young man, who had the most
:07:26. > :07:28.terrible experiences as a child - his mother was killed, he had been
:07:29. > :07:36.to the most terrible correctional facilities and was abused, and he
:07:37. > :07:43.ends up hijacking a bus in Rio. You told his story. He ended up dead.
:07:44. > :07:46.But you told his story. Yes, when I did the documentary I went to
:07:47. > :07:53.interview a famous sociologist, who was at the time the head of the
:07:54. > :07:59.police in Rio. I asked him a question about what he thought.
:08:00. > :08:03.Exactly the same question you asked me, how do you cope with that? He
:08:04. > :08:06.said that the street kids and the poor are invisible. But being
:08:07. > :08:13.invisible is not a property of the kids themselves. They are a property
:08:14. > :08:16.of us, but we learn not to see them. Was there, in your movies, you moved
:08:17. > :08:20.on from the documentary Bus 174, to two hit movies in Brazil, Elite
:08:21. > :08:34.Squad 1 and 2 about the violence and the special police operations. Were
:08:35. > :08:46.you trying to tell Brazil to look closely at this problem that exists
:08:47. > :08:49.in your midst? I think that we look at the numbers of violence in
:08:50. > :08:54.Brazil. In Rio, let's look at this city in particular. One number. The
:08:55. > :09:02.police in Rio has killed 1,300 people in one year. In a good year,
:09:03. > :09:06.the police kills about 600 people. Those are people who they say
:09:07. > :09:10.resisted arrest. When a policeman kills someone and they say they did
:09:11. > :09:18.it because they resisted arrest, it goes into the database. We can track
:09:19. > :09:22.that number. Rio has seven million inhabitants. About seven million. In
:09:23. > :09:25.one year, the police killed 1,300 people resisting arrest. In America,
:09:26. > :09:34.that has 300 million inhabitants, they kill about 200 who resisted
:09:35. > :09:39.arrest. That tells you how crazy it is. I can tell you several numbers
:09:40. > :09:44.about violence in Rio and how violent the city is. The question is
:09:45. > :09:50.still, why? That is the question that drove me to do those films.
:09:51. > :09:53.Those are my answers to the question. And what is the answer?
:09:54. > :09:56.Usually, people say, especially people who have a Marxist
:09:57. > :10:02.perspective, they say that violence is a result of social inequality.
:10:03. > :10:06.The problem is, that is not true. I can go into countries that have a
:10:07. > :10:18.lot of social inequality and far less violence than Rio. Yes, social
:10:19. > :10:21.inequality is part of the problem. There is some other process that is
:10:22. > :10:24.converting poor people into violent people at high rates. What is that
:10:25. > :10:31.process? That is my movies. My opinion is the state itself produces
:10:32. > :10:34.violence in two ways. One way, as I show in the film, is by mistreating
:10:35. > :10:40.street kids and small-time criminals. If you get Sandro, the
:10:41. > :10:42.kid on the bus and you get 3,000 Sandros, and you throw them in
:10:43. > :10:46.terrible correctional facilities, you beat them up in the streets, the
:10:47. > :10:50.police beat them up, they do not have the chance to recover, and they
:10:51. > :10:58.get thrown into crowded jails when they are older. You are bound to
:10:59. > :11:07.breed violent criminals. This is one thing that the state does. It fails
:11:08. > :11:13.us by mismanaging those kids. Once you are a street kid. The state is
:11:14. > :11:16.responsible for you. On the other hand, my films they talk about how
:11:17. > :11:21.the state manages repression, and the police, and how the state does
:11:22. > :11:25.that? They pay low wages to policeman. About $500 a month. They
:11:26. > :11:33.are poorly trained. They have a low educational level. They are corrupt.
:11:34. > :11:36.The police has its own rules. If a policeman kills someone, he is not
:11:37. > :11:44.going to be trialled by the regular laws of the country, but by military
:11:45. > :11:47.police laws and court. The state does two things, breeding violent
:11:48. > :11:53.individuals, breeding criminals, and breeding violent policeman. No
:11:54. > :12:01.wonder we kill each other. There is a real irony to the movies that you
:12:02. > :12:04.have made and their impact. You have explained the rationale, and the
:12:05. > :12:11.concern you have about how screwed up Rio is and the treatment of the
:12:12. > :12:14.poor urban population. Yet, listen to this, one Brazilian news magazine
:12:15. > :12:18.told audiences after they had seen your Elite Squad movies, 53% of them
:12:19. > :12:30.felt that the captain, the antihero, the big police guy. Who tortures
:12:31. > :12:33.people on screen. 53% of them thought he was a hero. 82% thought
:12:34. > :12:41.that drug dealers tortured by the police got what they deserved. That
:12:42. > :12:47.is a real problem. People think that in Rio, everyone is happy, people
:12:48. > :12:52.are all cordial, that is not true. There is violence here. Those who
:12:53. > :12:56.are beaten up by drug dealers, who are in bad situations and had to
:12:57. > :12:58.deal with corrupt cops and so on, they make the huge mistake of
:12:59. > :13:02.believing that making repression stronger, making the police meaner,
:13:03. > :13:09.that will solve the problem. Actually, it will make the problem
:13:10. > :13:14.worse. With respect, maybe you, as a filmmaker, made a mistake or a
:13:15. > :13:17.misjudgement as well. Some of the critics watching your police squad
:13:18. > :13:20.movies have a problem with the way they feel that you glamourise the
:13:21. > :13:36.paramilitaries. I want to quote a couple of reviews. I wonder how much
:13:37. > :13:39.passion... Variety in the US called Elite Squad a one-note celebration
:13:40. > :13:46.of violence which resembled a recruitment film for fascist thugs.
:13:47. > :13:48.Peter Bradshaw, one of Britain's leading film reviewers, talked about
:13:49. > :13:57.your lip-smacking adoration of the macho lawmen in SS style uniform. At
:13:58. > :14:01.the same time, we got the Golden Bear in Berlin, and it was given to
:14:02. > :14:05.us by Costa-Gavras, a leading left-wing film-maker who saw the
:14:06. > :14:09.film totally differently. But when you have serious reviews suggesting
:14:10. > :14:16.that you fall into the trap of being seduced by the paramilitaries, does
:14:17. > :14:23.that give you pause? No. When I did Onibus 174 I showed the back story
:14:24. > :14:28.of Sandro. How he grew up, where his violence came from. I was accused by
:14:29. > :14:35.the right-wing for being a radical Marxist, defending a murderer. An
:14:36. > :14:38.apologist for poor criminals? Yes. Obviously I wasn't doing any of
:14:39. > :14:45.that, I was just showing what the story was and passing no judgement.
:14:46. > :14:50.This is what happened with Sandro. He killed his girl. But he had that
:14:51. > :14:55.very bad past. I was a radical Marxist. When I did Elite Squad, the
:14:56. > :14:58.protagonist of my movie, the narrator, I chose him to be the
:14:59. > :15:09.narrator for this reason, was a radical, violent policeman that
:15:10. > :15:14.exists in Rio de Janeiro. This character, it's true. Not only one,
:15:15. > :15:18.hundreds of them. They go into the slums and torture people and think
:15:19. > :15:22.they are right and they have a speech that they tell themselves.
:15:23. > :15:26."We are here to do this, we are entitled to
:15:27. > :15:30."We are here to do this, we are do." I narrated the film from his
:15:31. > :15:34.perspective. Scorsese had the same problem with Taxi Driver, I can show
:15:35. > :15:37.you the reviews, the same thing. Let me go to the end of this. Then I
:15:38. > :15:42.became "a radical fascist". me go to the end of this. Then I
:15:43. > :15:47.same time I was a radical Marxist or a radical fascist. I am none of
:15:48. > :15:52.those things. We will leave the ideologies aside for a moment and
:15:53. > :15:59.ponder this. You clearly have a problem with the way the state,
:16:00. > :16:06.authority and policing work in Rio. For sure. But here is one basic
:16:07. > :16:09.fact. So far as I can tell, the homicide rate in Rio, since the
:16:10. > :16:12.police moved in with their elite squads and pacification units, the
:16:13. > :16:19.homicide rate, although still unacceptably high, has virtually
:16:20. > :16:26.halved in the last eight years. Is that not important? Well, of course
:16:27. > :16:32.it is. First of all, the homicide rate as measured by who? Did you
:16:33. > :16:35.collect these numbers yourself? Of course not. They are official
:16:36. > :16:39.figures. Yes, official figures by the government, that is doing the
:16:40. > :16:45.programme. Those numbers are highly questionable to begin with. Having
:16:46. > :16:49.said that, the occupy slum movement, done by the police, has brought
:16:50. > :17:01.numbers down, not by that amount but by some amount, I have no doubt
:17:02. > :17:13.about that. Not only murders but also crimes. But the numbers are
:17:14. > :17:17.going back up. You cannot just occupy the slums with the police you
:17:18. > :17:22.have, you have to do this now while you totally restructure the police.
:17:23. > :17:25.That second part, I am not seeing. Also, I don't see schools being
:17:26. > :17:29.built in the slums, I don't see better hospitals. What I see is a
:17:30. > :17:32.small tip of the iceberg in a short-term programme, that lowered
:17:33. > :17:38.the number of people killed in Rio de Janeiro to more than the number
:17:39. > :17:43.of people killed in all of America. That's how good this is! A final
:17:44. > :17:51.thought on this aspect of your artistic vision of Brazil. We've
:17:52. > :17:55.just spoken to the Deputy Sports Minister about the World Cup. It's
:17:56. > :17:59.one reason why Brazil is under such a microscope right now. He said, for
:18:00. > :18:02.all the problems we have, the World Cup will show that Brazil is a
:18:03. > :18:06.vibrant, thriving democracy and that we are the sort of developing
:18:07. > :18:15.country that can put on a world class event. I think there's an
:18:16. > :18:19.element in Brazil, especially probably in official Brazil, that
:18:20. > :18:28.resents you as an artist spending so much of your time focusing on the
:18:29. > :18:33.violence, on the favela. Maybe some would say on a cliched view of
:18:34. > :18:36.Brazil's problems. It is a cliche if you don't get shot in your head, and
:18:37. > :18:40.you're sitting in an apartment looking at your television and you
:18:41. > :18:44.believe it's a cliche. But it actually happens in day to day life.
:18:45. > :18:50.I would rather make a movie about hunger and show to the world there
:18:51. > :18:54.is hunger in Brazil. Annoy the people in Brasilia, annoy the guy
:18:55. > :18:56.who thinks Brazil is the great thriving democracy, that he's part
:18:57. > :19:05.of an amazing government that is doing great for Brazilians. I would
:19:06. > :19:08.rather annoy these people, be like a famous Brazilian musician once said
:19:09. > :19:12.- the fly in his soup. I would rather be that than be the happy guy
:19:13. > :19:22.who shows Carnival, like nothing is going on and we are in fairyland. I
:19:23. > :19:25.don't want to be that guy. Clearly, you seem to feel passionately about
:19:26. > :19:29.so many aspects of Brazilian society. I wonder why you appear to
:19:30. > :19:35.be quite tempted right now by a Hollywood career. You have just come
:19:36. > :19:40.off directing a big budget Hollywood movie, RoboCop, and I dare say
:19:41. > :19:45.you'll get many more offers. I don't appear to be tempted, I am tempted.
:19:46. > :19:51.I am a film-maker and I love making movies. RoboCop, which I just
:19:52. > :19:55.finished releasing... It's such a diversion from what you have made
:19:56. > :19:59.before. In a certain sense, yes, but in others, no. I don't know if
:20:00. > :20:06.you've seen the movie, it opens with an American army of robots invading
:20:07. > :20:13.Tehran. It talks about the use of drones. You know, American...
:20:14. > :20:18.Automated robot law enforcement? Well, it starts with foreign policy.
:20:19. > :20:22.The argument is maybe these robots we use overseas to zap our enemies,
:20:23. > :20:27.maybe we could use them inside our own society? The premise of the
:20:28. > :20:34.movie is that Americans reject the use, internally, of drones. It's not
:20:35. > :20:38.OK for a drone to kill an American but it is OK for a drone to kill a
:20:39. > :20:45.Pakistani guy, even though Ameica is not at war with Pakistan, if the guy
:20:46. > :20:49.has been charged as a terrorist. The same thing goes for Britain, who
:20:50. > :20:53.also has drones. Are you telling me there is a link to law enforcement
:20:54. > :20:57.in the favela? That in the end you're still examining this question
:20:58. > :21:01.of morality? No, I am a free person. I think the world is here for me to
:21:02. > :21:07.explore. I don't have to only talk about Brazil and slums. Like you, I
:21:08. > :21:10.can go anywhere and talk about different things. I suppose what
:21:11. > :21:13.interests me, I'm not making a judgement about it, what is
:21:14. > :21:16.interesting to me is that so much of your career has been about you
:21:17. > :21:22.pursuing passionate interests of your own. I wonder if you are at a
:21:23. > :21:25.point in your career where you are quite interested in the big studios
:21:26. > :21:30.in LA, calling you up and saying, Jose, here is a great pile of money
:21:31. > :21:34.for you to make our project. Is that something you now... When you make a
:21:35. > :21:41.studio film, and it's a gigantic movie, you don't have total control.
:21:42. > :21:44.Is not true that in Hollywood you have to test your storylines on an
:21:45. > :21:50.audience before you make the final cut? Absolutely. How do you feel
:21:51. > :21:56.about that? The same way a lot of British film-makers, including the
:21:57. > :22:01.guy who did Bloody Sunday. Film-makers are film-makers. This is
:22:02. > :22:04.our job. If I get a good project and I like making good stories and
:22:05. > :22:08.telling stories through the media of film, I do it. That doesn't mean I
:22:09. > :22:12.can't come to Rio... The next thing I am doing is a series about drug
:22:13. > :22:16.dealers, that has been shot in Colombia. It's not a studio movie. I
:22:17. > :22:19.have a documentary I am shooting in Brazil. I have always done those
:22:20. > :22:25.things at the same time. The fact that I can perhaps do movies in
:22:26. > :22:32.Hollywood just opens the door to me. I mean, looking at RoboCop, it got
:22:33. > :22:37.previewed by an audience. And did you change it based on audience
:22:38. > :22:43.reaction? No. We got a great reaction. 82% score. I was there.
:22:44. > :22:52.They preview it in front of you. The thing is, I like the issue of
:22:53. > :22:55.drones. That's why I made RoboCop. Like Scorsese said, you can always
:22:56. > :23:03.smuggle ideas into studio movies if you do it smartly. A studio movie
:23:04. > :23:06.gives you something that a small independent movie doesn't give you -
:23:07. > :23:13.the potential to reach a gigantic audience. And if you are able to
:23:14. > :23:17.smuggle the ideas you want to discuss into the studio movie, you
:23:18. > :23:26.can get away with putting those ideas to a broad audience. But, at
:23:27. > :23:31.the same time, it comes at a risk. Once you have that kind of budget,
:23:32. > :23:35.you will have to reveal... And by the way, I hate the directors who
:23:36. > :23:38.get previewed, who get their movies changed, and then complain as if
:23:39. > :23:45.they never read the contract to begin with. You have got to know
:23:46. > :23:49.what you are doing, and you do know. Right? Jose Padilha, we're out of
:23:50. > :24:21.time but thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. It's my pleasure.
:24:22. > :24:26.It's shocking it'd happen in a public place.
:24:27. > :24:29.I don't find it funny, but I don't find it offensive.