0:00:08 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk I'm Sarah Montague.
0:00:11 > 0:00:15My guest today is one of the big names of the apartheid struggle
0:00:15 > 0:00:18in South Africa.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Ahmed Kathrada was sentenced to life imprisonment alongside
0:00:20 > 0:00:23Nelson Mandela on Robben Island, spending 26 years of his
0:00:23 > 0:00:26life in prison.
0:00:26 > 0:00:31On their release, Nelson Mandela persuaded him to join him
0:00:31 > 0:00:34in government, an experience he did not like, but he has never
0:00:34 > 0:00:36stopped campaigning for the ideals of freedom
0:00:36 > 0:00:38on which the anti-apartheid movement was based.
0:00:38 > 0:00:49Has South Africa lived up to those ideals?
0:01:00 > 0:01:05Ahmed Kathrada, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for having me.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08When you think back 50 years ago, what were the ideals
0:01:08 > 0:01:12for which you are fighting?
0:01:12 > 0:01:14In one sentence?
0:01:14 > 0:01:26It was for a non-racial, non-sexist, democratic South Africa.
0:01:26 > 0:01:27That sums up the whole struggle.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29That sums up the whole struggle?
0:01:29 > 0:01:31But, for you, there were years of what became
0:01:31 > 0:01:43an incredibly difficult life?
0:01:43 > 0:01:45You were arrested more than 18 times?
0:01:45 > 0:01:52You spent 26 years of your life in prison?
0:01:52 > 0:01:55There must have been times when you thought that this
0:01:55 > 0:01:56wasn't for you.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58There was no such thought at all.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00The activities for which we were arrested, we already knew
0:02:00 > 0:02:18what the consequences could be.
0:02:18 > 0:02:19Many of our colleagues were hanged.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Others were tortured to death, some were assassinated.
0:02:21 > 0:02:22We had an idea of what it could be.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Prison was a bonus because many of our colleagues didn't live
0:02:26 > 0:02:27to see it.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30You knew the price that you would have to pay.
0:02:30 > 0:02:42Was there a moment when you were young which you felt was such
0:02:42 > 0:02:44an outrage that you committed your life to it?
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Was it just a way of living?
0:02:46 > 0:02:49It was an afterthought because I was born in a little
0:02:49 > 0:02:51country town about 200 miles from Johannesburg.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55When the time came to go to school, I was not admitted into the white
0:02:55 > 0:02:57school nor into the black school.
0:02:57 > 0:03:20There was no Indian school.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23So at the age of eight, I had to be sent to Johannesburg
0:03:23 > 0:03:25which was 200 miles away, the school.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27At that age, it is not politics.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30One starts to wonder why I was not admitted into the schools
0:03:30 > 0:03:34of my friends because, as children, we played and we didn't know colour.
0:03:34 > 0:03:35You are playing alongside black and white...?
0:03:36 > 0:03:36Black and white.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38Our immediate neighbours were white.
0:03:38 > 0:03:39As children, children don't know colour.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42You become friends, you quarrel and become friends again.
0:03:42 > 0:03:43It wasn't politics.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45It was a young man questioning why couldn't go to school
0:03:45 > 0:03:54with my friends.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56But coming into Johannesburg, of course, I came face-to-face
0:03:56 > 0:03:59with apartheid, raw apartheid, which was not noticeable
0:03:59 > 0:04:01in the little country town in which I was born.
0:04:01 > 0:04:09Raw apartheid: In what way?
0:04:09 > 0:04:11How did it manifest?
0:04:11 > 0:04:13The first time, I saw boards in front of restaurants,
0:04:13 > 0:04:15hotels, libraries, trams, parks, saying "Europeans only,
0:04:15 > 0:04:29non- Europeans not allowed." There were even board that said
0:04:29 > 0:04:31"Non- Europeans and dogs are not allowed." That,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33I saw, for the first time in Johannesburg,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35not in the rural areas.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38When living with that, I wonder how often you are angry.
0:04:38 > 0:04:44Is there a constant sense of rage at the injustice?
0:04:44 > 0:04:46There was not much room for anger.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48As I said, the expectation was worse.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Before we were brought up for trial in the Rivonia trial,
0:04:51 > 0:04:54there was a law that allowed the police to detain political
0:04:54 > 0:05:03suspects for three months at a time in complete isolation.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06No visitors allowed, no lawyers, no newspapers, no books.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09The only visitor one gets are the police and they come
0:05:09 > 0:05:12from time to time with one message only: Give us this bit
0:05:12 > 0:05:25of information or you are going to die, you are going to hang.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27So you are by yourself.
0:05:27 > 0:05:47You are incommunicado.
0:05:47 > 0:05:48All the thoughts in your mind are death.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52They come in and tell you that you are going to die unless you give
0:05:52 > 0:05:53us this information.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55One has to steel oneself not to talk.
0:05:55 > 0:06:07Not to answer questions.
0:06:07 > 0:06:08And, fortunately, I managed that.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11The other fortunate thing is that I was not tortured physically
0:06:11 > 0:06:13unlike many of my friends and colleagues.
0:06:13 > 0:06:14Some were tortured to death.
0:06:14 > 0:06:15Others survived.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Some went into parliament, others stuck around.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19Initially, it was non-violent but around 1960, a number
0:06:19 > 0:06:20of things happened.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23There was the Sharpeville Massacre in which 69 people were killed.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26The ANC were banned and there was a decision that violence should
0:06:26 > 0:06:27begin in the east.
0:06:27 > 0:06:34How did you feel about that?
0:06:34 > 0:06:34About...?
0:06:34 > 0:06:38About the ANC decision to begin using violence?
0:06:38 > 0:06:41To make it an armed struggle?
0:06:41 > 0:06:41I accepted that.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Especially after the banning of the ANC and the other
0:06:44 > 0:07:05organisations, the avenues of peaceful protest came to a halt.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07There was no other way out.
0:07:07 > 0:07:22That is when the ANC set up a wing for the armed struggle.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25It was never envisaged that there would be a military victory.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28Because the first phase of the armed struggle was recruiting,
0:07:28 > 0:07:30training recruits in the manufacture and planting of bombs.
0:07:30 > 0:07:39These were to be planted - the targets, rather,
0:07:39 > 0:07:42where these places which had the sign saying that non-
0:07:42 > 0:07:43Europeans were not allowed.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45But every recruit, and there were cells of three,
0:07:45 > 0:07:49they had to take an oath that when the bombs were planted,
0:07:49 > 0:07:51there would be no injury to human beings.
0:07:51 > 0:07:57But their work...
0:07:57 > 0:07:58The original intention...
0:07:58 > 0:07:59There were a couple of instances...
0:07:59 > 0:08:02And there were numerous bombings and at least 63 people died
0:08:02 > 0:08:03as a result.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06And there were a few and if I'm correct, they were done
0:08:06 > 0:08:09by what we called MK units, some of them in violation
0:08:09 > 0:08:18of their discipline.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21You mentioned the Rivonia Trial which was significant for a number
0:08:21 > 0:08:24of reasons, the trial in which you and Nelson Mandela
0:08:24 > 0:08:35and others were sent to Robben Island.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37It was also significant because of what was said
0:08:37 > 0:08:39at the trial, not least by Nelson Mandela himself.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43He said that it was not a criminal case, but a political one.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45It was deliberate policy on your part, the group
0:08:45 > 0:08:47of you standing trial, wasn't it?
0:08:47 > 0:08:51We had four of the most senior leaders of the ANC among the eight
0:08:51 > 0:09:00of us who were tried.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02Right from the beginning, under their leadership,
0:09:02 > 0:09:05it was decided that this should be a political trial.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07We the accused, together with our lawyers, turned it
0:09:07 > 0:09:20into a political trial, not a criminal trial.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Mandela, in his four-hour speech, I think, to the court,
0:09:22 > 0:09:24set the tone of what the defence case would be.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28It was a turn you had all agreed to in advance?
0:09:28 > 0:09:28Yes.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32This is where he said what he fought for and if need be,
0:09:32 > 0:09:33he hoped to die?
0:09:33 > 0:09:35That was how he ended his address.
0:09:35 > 0:09:44Not all of us gave evidence.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Those of us who did took the cue from what Mr Mandela said
0:09:47 > 0:09:59in beginning the defence case.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02In other words, when he went into the witness box,
0:10:02 > 0:10:03you proclaim your political beliefs.
0:10:03 > 0:10:04You do not apologise.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06You do not ask for mercy.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09And when there is a death sentence which was factored into it
0:10:09 > 0:10:16until the last day, there can be no appeal to a higher court.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19That was how the whole case was conducted.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23As I said, Mandela set the lead and those of us who gave evidence
0:10:23 > 0:10:24followed in that example.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27That trial about which you wrote afterwards, you wrote a letter
0:10:27 > 0:10:31from Robben Island in which you said that it was sad to see former
0:10:31 > 0:10:34comrades who you loved and respected coming one by one into the witness
0:10:34 > 0:10:38box to give evidence and it hurts when these people tell lies,
0:10:38 > 0:10:40some of them unashamedly.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43There were a couple who were in fairly senior positions
0:10:43 > 0:10:43who gave evidence.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46There were others who gave evidence whose role was very minor.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50In fact, some of them did not even know that they were carrying
0:10:50 > 0:11:03on political work.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06For instance, there were owners of vehicles who were used to smuggle
0:11:06 > 0:11:15people out of the country.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18They were told that these were football team is going to Botswana.
0:11:18 > 0:11:26Eventually, they discovered this but they played ball.
0:11:26 > 0:11:27People betrayed you?
0:11:27 > 0:11:29I would not call it betrayal.
0:11:29 > 0:11:41They were severely tortured.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45I do not know if I would have held out under that torture.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48There is a very tight group of you who were standing trial.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Later, you said about Nelson Mandela's death
0:11:50 > 0:11:51that you were...
0:11:51 > 0:12:09"Now I have lost a brother.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12My life is a void and I do know to whom to turn." This
0:12:12 > 0:12:14is as a result of your shared experiences.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17He played a very special role in my life.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20As I said, I had come to Johannesburg at the age of eight
0:12:20 > 0:12:23but as the years went by, and I got involved
0:12:23 > 0:12:26with the Young Communist League and the Indian Youth Congress
0:12:26 > 0:12:34and so forth, in that capacity, I met Walter Sisulu and the others.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37My biological father had died when I was 14.
0:12:37 > 0:12:46Gradually, I regarded Sisulu as my father in fact.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48I could turn to him for the most personal advice.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50You mentioned Silvia Hill.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52She was white.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55And when I started the relationship with her, I consulted with Sisulu -
0:12:55 > 0:13:12I told him about the association.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15If we get caught, it can have a negative impact
0:13:15 > 0:13:18on our struggle, our organisation - that was what I thought.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20His response was: We are against all racial laws,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23including the Immorality Act and Mixed Marriages Act.
0:13:23 > 0:13:23Just be careful.
0:13:23 > 0:13:32But if you get caught, we will stand by you.
0:13:32 > 0:13:37Just be careful.
0:13:37 > 0:13:43One of the members of your family, Nelson Mandela, not just
0:13:43 > 0:13:46on Robben Island but Pollsmoore, where you shared a cell with him.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48But earlier, what was that like?
0:13:48 > 0:13:51That was the first time, after 18 years on Robben Island,
0:13:51 > 0:13:55when there were transfers.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58It was the first time we were in one cell.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01On Robben Island, in the 18 years we spent there,
0:14:01 > 0:14:11we were in single cells.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15The only time we met and talked was at work when we did the pick
0:14:15 > 0:14:16and shovel work in the quarry.
0:14:16 > 0:14:26That was when we could work together and talk.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Once we were locked up, we were not allowed to talk.
0:14:29 > 0:14:31So because there were only five political prisoners there,
0:14:31 > 0:14:32things were more relaxed.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34So to be sharing a cell, that was...
0:14:34 > 0:14:44We were sharing a cell until we were transferred in 1982.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47For three years we were together in one cell, and then Mr Mandela
0:14:47 > 0:14:58was separated from us.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01He was kept at the prison, but away from us.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03That is when he started talking to the other side.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06When you did eventually get out, he persuaded
0:15:06 > 0:15:07you to go into government.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10He offered you a seat, you turned down a Cabinet seat.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14He offered you an ANC position as adviser and you didn't like it.
0:15:14 > 0:15:14I wonder why?
0:15:14 > 0:15:18You had struggled your whole life to change Africa and now you had
0:15:18 > 0:15:19an opportunity to do so.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22What did you dislike about it?
0:15:22 > 0:15:31Not all of us were aiming to go into Parliament.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34I was working in his office of course, for the five years.
0:15:35 > 0:15:47I was elected a Member of Parliament.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50For some reason, I just did not like that kind of life.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53What you did was to set up a foundation.
0:15:53 > 0:15:54Much later.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57One of its aims was to campaign for the Freedom Charter.
0:15:57 > 0:15:57That was a document from 1955.
0:15:58 > 0:15:59That was a document from 1955.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02It talked about freedom, all people having rights.
0:16:02 > 0:16:08People sharing the country's wealth.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10The land being shared among those who worked it.
0:16:10 > 0:16:16A very radical redistribution of wealth within South Africa.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18South Africa is a long way from achieving that.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19Do you think it can?
0:16:19 > 0:16:21Do you still want it to?
0:16:21 > 0:16:28Unlike other colonial countries, our oppressors were not foreigners.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30They were South Africans.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33So our policy took that into account, that these
0:16:33 > 0:16:43are fellow countrypersons.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45Not a few thousand, but a few million.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48Our policy had to take that into account.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52So that if you tried to implement everything we have said on that
0:16:52 > 0:16:54platform and so forth, when you come into government,
0:16:54 > 0:17:05you are dealing with reality.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08In terms of what the government set out to achieve, at the end
0:17:08 > 0:17:11of apartheid almost 90% of the land was owned by whites,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13who made up 10% of the population.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16The aim was to transfer about 30% of that land to blacks.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20So far only about 7.5% has been.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22It is 20 years since apartheid.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Is that enough progress?
0:17:24 > 0:17:28Again, when we say that most of the land that can be used
0:17:28 > 0:17:38for agriculture was in white hands.
0:17:38 > 0:17:39But again, you face the reality.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41You are not dealing with enemies any more.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45And we are not going to do anything foolish by turning these
0:17:45 > 0:17:58people against us.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00We have to work with them.
0:18:00 > 0:18:12The policy was in practice.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14We didn't know how to run huge farms.
0:18:15 > 0:18:16We didn't know how to run industry.
0:18:16 > 0:18:17We didn't have engineers.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20We, on every ministry, we relied on the white society.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24When you look at what senior politicians have done and been
0:18:24 > 0:18:30criticised for, for example the Public Protector,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Thuli Madonsela, who told Parliament, all I can tell
0:18:33 > 0:18:34the committee is that corruption has
0:18:34 > 0:18:35reached crisis proportions.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37There are no two ways about it.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41As I say, as a member of the ANC, I have admiration for the Public
0:18:41 > 0:18:54Protector.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58The Public Protector, the public itself, these
0:18:58 > 0:19:00are all institutions to protect our democracy.
0:19:00 > 0:19:11Let's talk about another campaign.
0:19:11 > 0:19:12Another campaign in another country.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15You see you visualise your fellow freedom fighter, Marwan Barghouti,
0:19:15 > 0:19:18and other Palestinian prisoners, and you have campaigned vociferously
0:19:18 > 0:19:19for his release.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22You say he is in a similar situation, and arguably a worse
0:19:22 > 0:19:31situation, than Nelson Mandela.
0:19:31 > 0:19:44The ANC policy has always regarded the PLO as a sister organisation.
0:19:44 > 0:19:45An ally organisation.
0:19:45 > 0:19:52That is the policy of our government as well.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54We have close ties with the PLO.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Although western countries were not happy with that.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01When Mr Mandela came out of prison he was advised to break ties
0:20:01 > 0:20:06with Castro and with the PLO.
0:20:06 > 0:20:13His response was very simple.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16To the western leaders, when we came to you for assistance,
0:20:16 > 0:20:27you condemned us as terrorists.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31It would be ungrateful and immoral of us now to turn our backs on those
0:20:31 > 0:20:32who supported us.
0:20:32 > 0:20:50Is it solely because they supported you?
0:20:50 > 0:20:53You will know that Alan Butler, whose son was injured,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56and he was injured, when a bus was bombed in Jerusalem.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58He said the media had attempted to portray Marwan Barghouti
0:20:58 > 0:21:00as a kind of Nelson Mandela.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02The truth is quite the opposite.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04He has shown no remorse for his activities.
0:21:04 > 0:21:06Mandela showed no remorse for what we had done.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09In fact we have been proud of what we have done.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12We can't prescribe to another country how they should
0:21:12 > 0:21:21run their struggle.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24My own view is that I continue to support the Palestinian struggle,
0:21:24 > 0:21:26once the leaders have decided this is
0:21:26 > 0:21:28the road we will take.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30Is their use of violence justified?
0:21:30 > 0:21:32If so, that is not for me to say.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36But if they in their wisdom resort to violence as the only method,
0:21:36 > 0:21:42I will support them.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44I have been to Palestine.
0:21:44 > 0:21:45I have seen what it is like.
0:21:45 > 0:21:52It is the only colony in the world today, colony of Islam.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55I have seen in Palestine what didn't exist under the worst
0:21:55 > 0:21:55days of apartheid.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59So your support is unconditional?
0:21:59 > 0:22:01My support is wholehearted.
0:22:01 > 0:22:10I take my cue from what they do.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12I don't prescribe to them.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15So far there is no reason for me to criticise
0:22:15 > 0:22:39the Palestinian leadership.
0:22:39 > 0:22:40The African Zionist foundation has accused
0:22:40 > 0:22:42Marwan Barghouti of being a terrorist guilty
0:22:42 > 0:22:44of multiple crimes against humanity.
0:22:44 > 0:22:45I am not surprised at that.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47They have tried to turn...
0:22:47 > 0:22:50Let me take this as an individual, because I have been
0:22:50 > 0:22:51outspoken on Palestine.
0:22:51 > 0:22:52They have been trying to misinterpret us
0:22:53 > 0:22:53as being anti-Jewish.
0:22:53 > 0:22:54Anti-semitic.
0:22:54 > 0:22:54We are not.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56We are critical of Israel.
0:22:56 > 0:22:57That does not make us anti-Jewish.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Some of our leaders are Jewish.
0:23:00 > 0:23:00So many...
0:23:00 > 0:23:02Ruth Slovo.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04I grew up with her.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06She was killed by a bomb.
0:23:06 > 0:23:07She is Jewish.
0:23:07 > 0:23:08So I can never be anti-Jewish.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12Our struggle can never be anti-Jewish.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15When you at times think about what has happened,
0:23:15 > 0:23:16do you summon rage?
0:23:16 > 0:23:19Do you ever feel anger?
0:23:19 > 0:23:21I never did.
0:23:21 > 0:23:28I never felt angry.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31We came out of prison, and before our policy was reconciliation.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Following from that policy of reconciliation,
0:23:33 > 0:23:37is lack of bitterness.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40No revenge.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42No hatred.
0:23:42 > 0:23:47Policy-wise, and in practice, that is the only way forward.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50These are negative emotions, revenge, bitterness.
0:23:50 > 0:24:01In the end, people who harbour those emotions suffer more.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04So we don't want to spend our lives with negative emotions.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06We have to face the reality of this day.
0:24:06 > 0:24:15Ahmed Kathrada, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Most welcome.
0:24:30 > 0:24:31Hello there.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34The next few days are looking more unsettled, more cloud and outbreaks