:00:00. > :00:00.baby. Now on BBC News it's time for
:00:00. > :00:17.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Shaun Ley.
:00:18. > :00:21.They must have looked like a position of great influence in the
:00:22. > :00:23.new postwar Syria. The presidential adviser to the national collision of
:00:24. > :00:29.Syrian preposition and revolution forces, the president in X or
:00:30. > :00:34.planning to drive President Assad from power. Rime Allaf became an
:00:35. > :00:37.adviser after an established career. Now, President Assad is so
:00:38. > :00:47.confident, he is running for re` election. Important Western allies
:00:48. > :00:51.are getting nervous, seemingly worried about Islamist 's getting a
:00:52. > :00:55.foothold in Syria, less than President Assad himself. Time is
:00:56. > :00:56.running out for the opposition, and not for the president. `` the
:00:57. > :01:15.President in exile. Rime Allaf, welcome to HARDtalk. He
:01:16. > :01:19.is not running, but running for re` election. Indeed, as he told
:01:20. > :01:23.students at Damascus University a fortnight ago, he sings a turning
:01:24. > :01:27.point has been reached. Of course not, he has said that since his
:01:28. > :01:34.first speech to Parliament on March the 30th in 2011, he said this was a
:01:35. > :01:38.conspicuous `` a conspiracy. They keep repeating that we have reached
:01:39. > :01:42.a turning point and it is nearly over, we had to look at the facts on
:01:43. > :01:45.the ground. President Assad has not been able to regain control of the
:01:46. > :01:54.vast majority of Syria. When he says on the ground, it has become a
:01:55. > :01:58.mopping up operation. His ally, he said a few weeks ago that the danger
:01:59. > :02:05.of the Syrian regime falling has ended. This is wishful thinking, it
:02:06. > :02:11.is Luke and Hill ludicrous to think of the head of the militia speaking
:02:12. > :02:16.for Syrians. They have been demonstrating peacefully ``
:02:17. > :02:19.ludicrous. It is up to the Syrians to decide whether they want the end
:02:20. > :02:25.of this regime, you would agree that the majority have said this. The
:02:26. > :02:30.trouble is it maybe up to the Syrians to make a judgement on that.
:02:31. > :02:33.For that to be achieved, as he wanted to be, you require a lot of
:02:34. > :02:38.outside support. It was there at the start, but some of this seems flaky.
:02:39. > :02:43.That is what Tony Blair had to say last week, he said "repugnant though
:02:44. > :02:47.it seems, the only way forward is to conclude the best agreement
:02:48. > :02:51.possible, even if it means, in the interim, President Assad stays for a
:02:52. > :02:55.period" . The keyword is repugnant, it is ludicrous that we should
:02:56. > :03:00.imagine a walk in all, as described by so many human rights
:03:01. > :03:04.organisations around the world, is documented heavily by Syrians and
:03:05. > :03:08.international media. `` war criminal. It is disgusting that he
:03:09. > :03:13.should be allowed to consider the notion of running for what is not
:03:14. > :03:19.really a third term, these elections were never legitimate. It may be
:03:20. > :03:23.repugnant, you but you have to deal with reality. The world has to
:03:24. > :03:27.protect, and it has abandoned the Syrian people. Maybe it is a better
:03:28. > :03:32.way of protecting more people to leave the regime in place. The deal
:03:33. > :03:35.turned to. It is a strange protection, when you consider that
:03:36. > :03:41.nearly 10 million people have become refugees, either in neighbouring
:03:42. > :03:46.countries within Syria, as displaced people. The Syrian people, nearly
:03:47. > :03:50.one third or up to half of the population, have fled from barrel
:03:51. > :03:55.bombs. And chemical attacks. How can it be better for Syria and Syrians?
:03:56. > :03:59.How can it be the only solution, to keep a walk for a medal in charge?
:04:00. > :04:09.When all of these crimes have been committed? `` keep a walker and all
:04:10. > :04:20.Hill `` war criminal. They cannot be in charge. President Assad cannot be
:04:21. > :04:24.part, presumably, any Syrian future. The international community has
:04:25. > :04:29.never signed up to anything that said he cannot be part of the Syrian
:04:30. > :04:34.future. Look at Geneva, the establishment of a traditional
:04:35. > :04:38.governing body can be including of the President. It is the key, it is
:04:39. > :04:43.the solution to move the country forward. It can include him? Never,
:04:44. > :04:46.it cannot include people who have been charged... But you have no
:04:47. > :04:52.evidence the international community with you on that. They may have said
:04:53. > :04:56.things. Most of the governments in the region have said that President
:04:57. > :05:01.Assad has to go, whether or not they say it is not the point. Maybe he
:05:02. > :05:06.has to go in one year, two years, three years, five years, once the
:05:07. > :05:09.transition has happened? He has been in power for over three years, in
:05:10. > :05:13.the most devastating war on a civilian population at the start.
:05:14. > :05:22.The Geneva communique is clear on this transitional body. A transition
:05:23. > :05:26.by default, that means that the current rulers are not part of it.
:05:27. > :05:29.Never does not, it can involve the current rulers before someone takes
:05:30. > :05:33.over. Every international law, I believe, will not approve of a walk
:05:34. > :05:38.from all been in charge of a country. You acknowledge during the
:05:39. > :05:44.time of the talks in January, you attended, and you wrote in an
:05:45. > :05:48.article in a British newspaper "a process that is delivered that could
:05:49. > :05:51.maintain the status quo in Syria indefinitely". You knew what you
:05:52. > :05:55.were letting yourselves in for. We went to Geneva because we were
:05:56. > :05:58.hopeful that after three years of devastating war, the powers that
:05:59. > :06:05.could make things happen were going to put pressure on his regime. We
:06:06. > :06:11.know that the support comes mostly from Russia and Iran. Russia agreed
:06:12. > :06:17.to the Geneva communique 2012. The idea was that these negotiations
:06:18. > :06:27.would be to that PGP. You said you went to Geneva under duress. Indeed,
:06:28. > :06:31.we went under a great deal of pressure, because of the barrel
:06:32. > :06:34.bombs and the attacks, they kept falling on the people of Syria while
:06:35. > :06:39.we were sat there. From those words you wrote in January, it sounds like
:06:40. > :06:42.he re` believed that there were serious intention by the
:06:43. > :06:46.international community to support you in favour of President Assad, to
:06:47. > :06:51.help remove him. `` you really believed. Hoping that he would never
:06:52. > :06:56.feature again in the country. We have to work with what we have,
:06:57. > :07:02.political support from a great deal of nations around the world. We hope
:07:03. > :07:09.they would keep their word. We hoped after the deal on chemical weapons,
:07:10. > :07:13.a shocked America Syrians, `` a shock to many Syrians. It is his
:07:14. > :07:18.regime that proves it does not. You have a lot of support, you say,
:07:19. > :07:24.outside, but what about inside of Syria? There are many revolutionary
:07:25. > :07:27.inside forces, they have supported the coalition. They are part of this
:07:28. > :07:34.great coalition of opposition forces. This is right it is called a
:07:35. > :07:37.coalition. `` this is why. This is why we have groups of
:07:38. > :07:41.intellectuals, and groups, and committees and local councils who
:07:42. > :07:45.believe that this political way, this political umbrella to the free
:07:46. > :07:49.Syrian army, to the armed resistance on the ground is the only way out
:07:50. > :07:53.for them, to bring the message to the world. The umbrella appears to
:07:54. > :07:59.be shrinking, doesn't it? Perhaps, in a sense, you have undermined your
:08:00. > :08:02.own legitimacy. Your website says that one of its principles is not
:08:03. > :08:07.engaging in any dialogue or negotiations with the regime. Al
:08:08. > :08:14.Jazeera says that rebels and activists inside Syria dismissed the
:08:15. > :08:19.group. That shows you that precisely this is what the Syrian people are
:08:20. > :08:22.asking for, if they had some support from the international community,
:08:23. > :08:27.some promises, had they been delivered, as we were promised, if
:08:28. > :08:31.it was proven, that it was the regime who were impeding this
:08:32. > :08:35.political process, we would see some in happen. We are still waiting.
:08:36. > :08:38.Either give us the means to defend ourselves, give us more
:08:39. > :08:42.sophisticated weapons, so we can neutralise this as power, this is a
:08:43. > :08:48.monopoly of the President Assad regime, or at least establish
:08:49. > :08:52.humanitarian quarters. Or, push the regime. But why should they listen
:08:53. > :08:56.to you saying that? If you lose support on the ground. Look at, for
:08:57. > :08:59.example, the Syrian National Coalition, that was the biggest part
:09:00. > :09:03.of the opposition in Excel, they announced they were putting the
:09:04. > :09:15.opposition because they were taking part is in talks `` X Ihle. ``exile.
:09:16. > :09:18.It is true, but after the Geneva talks, the Syrian National Coalition
:09:19. > :09:26.asked to be re` integrated into the coalition. In the assembly in April,
:09:27. > :09:29.most members were voted back in. Those who boycotted understand that
:09:30. > :09:32.we should not be negotiating. They saw that the coalition did a good
:09:33. > :09:40.job improving it was serious, and proving it was looking for political
:09:41. > :09:46.solutions. And, that it was willing to go all the way to show that. What
:09:47. > :09:49.did you come up with? We came out with very little so far. But we had
:09:50. > :09:56.always hoped that we were going to get those promised pressures on the
:09:57. > :10:03.regime, or in the alternative, the defenders are hoping to smash them
:10:04. > :10:06.against this brutal regime. You have to remember that the regime is
:10:07. > :10:11.supported financially and militarily by Russia and Iran. You have to
:10:12. > :10:16.remember that members of the terrorist group Hezbollah and
:10:17. > :10:21.members of Iraq and the Iranians publican guard helping President
:10:22. > :10:28.Assad in his war. But given the reluctance of your backers... But
:10:29. > :10:33.still... They still have not been able to make a real dent in Syria.
:10:34. > :10:37.They control a small part in Syria at the moment. With those allies who
:10:38. > :10:41.are foreigners. At the free Syrian army controls vast parts of Syria
:10:42. > :10:45.and the regime has been unable to gain control. President Assad is not
:10:46. > :10:49.winning. The stalemate will be very different. That we pick up on your
:10:50. > :10:53.point about the role of the free Syrian army and your contention that
:10:54. > :10:58.you have, and you maintain support inside of Syria. The BBC has gone
:10:59. > :11:16.into Aleppo in the past few days. This is what one resident told our
:11:17. > :11:17.correspondent. Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd.
:11:18. > :11:20.E`mail: accessibility@bskyb.com. Many armed groups are stealing
:11:21. > :11:22.houses, that is not doing good to people. That is why we started to
:11:23. > :11:25.hate both sides. We do not want the free Syrian army or the forces, we
:11:26. > :11:28.want to live in peace". They are right to say that. They support
:11:29. > :11:30.fully bringing them to court. And anyone who has committed a war crime
:11:31. > :11:33.should be indicted. But what is happening on the ground now, and the
:11:34. > :11:39.danger that it is diminishing the level of support that the coalition
:11:40. > :11:43.enjoys, and you are imposing your political authority, even if
:11:44. > :11:47.President Assad went. All the more reason to intervene, and for the
:11:48. > :11:52.world to stop this insane war. When nobody is allowed to give the upper
:11:53. > :11:57.hand. Is time running out? Yes, for most people in Syria who are subject
:11:58. > :12:01.to this. Is it running out for you? Know, the Syrian revolutionaries and
:12:02. > :12:17.those who rose up against President Assad are not giving up. `` no. The
:12:18. > :12:20.effect has been clear. After over three years, we are in our fourth
:12:21. > :12:23.year. Nobody is going up his arms. People prefer to leave the country
:12:24. > :12:26.and become refugees them to submit to the regime by macro threw. Rime
:12:27. > :12:35.Allaf you say that they held on in the last opposition. `` the regime
:12:36. > :12:40.by President Assad. These are areas that are under siege. President
:12:41. > :12:50.Assad's have reinforced their control in Damascus. Resistance in
:12:51. > :12:55.the third largest city, Homs Tom which has held out for two years is
:12:56. > :13:02.in danger of being crushed. `` Homs. It is not the basis for an
:13:03. > :13:06.opposition victory. I didn't speak about victory. What is the
:13:07. > :13:10.alternative, defeat? There is no defeat possible for those who rose
:13:11. > :13:15.up. So this goes on and on? This is all the more reason for the world to
:13:16. > :13:23.intervene, this is crimes against humanity as described by NGOs and
:13:24. > :13:25.the UN. May I remind you that while President Assad controls this area
:13:26. > :13:30.with the help of Hezbollah, he has been unable to gain control of one
:13:31. > :13:41.suburb or several suburbs of Damascus. He has two bomb them with
:13:42. > :13:46.chemical weapons. `` to bomb. You are saying there is no military
:13:47. > :13:52.victory possible. That is why we went to Geneva and that is why we
:13:53. > :13:55.request the world powers, those who can make it happen, to pressure the
:13:56. > :14:02.President Assad regime. This is what we will need. It is President Assad
:14:03. > :14:06.who is saying that he only believes in a military solution and is still
:14:07. > :14:10.unable to regain control. For your external backers, whatever you think
:14:11. > :14:12.of what they say in public, the practicality for them is whether or
:14:13. > :14:17.not you are worth supporting because you will achieve a better outcome
:14:18. > :14:20.than what exists. Anyone is worth supporting compared to a criminal.
:14:21. > :14:28.America shows they are worried about what you are saying. This is what
:14:29. > :14:34.the assistant Secretary of State for the eastern FS appearing before a
:14:35. > :14:40.Senate committee says, over the past year, we have refocused our
:14:41. > :14:42.activity, channelling sources to local governments and civil society
:14:43. > :14:47.groups as well as the Syrian coalition. A kiss is on ways to
:14:48. > :14:49.focus on basic security, staving off the advances of extremist groups.
:14:50. > :14:58.She is saying you cannot be trusted with suppliers. She is talking about
:14:59. > :15:04.extremists. It is the Free Syrian Army. It is whether you are
:15:05. > :15:08.effective at fighting them. We are at extremely effective. Large areas
:15:09. > :15:13.have been liberated from Al Qaeda foreign terrorists who have
:15:14. > :15:16.infiltrated Syria, many of them as reported in trusted newspapers, with
:15:17. > :15:23.the help and collusion of the Syrian regime. The only people fighting
:15:24. > :15:27.extremists are the moderate nationalists of the Free Syrian
:15:28. > :15:30.Army. The UK suspended deliveries of nonlethal aid. Has it restarted
:15:31. > :15:36.them? Not the way we would like them to. Why not? This is a question that
:15:37. > :15:43.should be asked to the British government. You must be having this
:15:44. > :15:48.conversation. We have asked the same conversations that we always have
:15:49. > :15:54.the same excuses, we don't know what is happening, we need better
:15:55. > :16:00.control. We proved a buy day that we are the only capable force of
:16:01. > :16:04.tackling those terrorists. When we are left to our own devices, we are
:16:05. > :16:07.left without the real weapons, the more we will split fighting the Al
:16:08. > :16:12.Qaeda terrorists and the regime. Is it possible they no longer want you
:16:13. > :16:14.to win? It is possible they have strange rationale. These are
:16:15. > :16:16.countries which support the declaration of human rights,
:16:17. > :16:22.responsibility to protect humans. It is ludicrous to imagine...
:16:23. > :16:30.(CROSSTALK) is it worrying? Not just worrying. You feel a lot of despair
:16:31. > :16:34.in Syria that these promises did not materialise with the increase of the
:16:35. > :16:41.savagery of the regime which has been proven. A former US ambassador
:16:42. > :16:46.to Syria and other countries in the Middle East, a distinguished figure
:16:47. > :16:49.in the US, one who would be thought to be still well plugged into what
:16:50. > :16:52.the thinking is in Washington, he said in a speech, it is time to
:16:53. > :16:57.consider a future for Syria without President Assad. He being ousted is
:16:58. > :17:00.not going. Do we want the alternative? A major country at the
:17:01. > :17:05.heart of the Arab world at the hands of Al Qaeda. We need to come up with
:17:06. > :17:10.a future that includes President Assad, as bad as he is, because
:17:11. > :17:17.there is something worse. This is a false dichotomy. Al Qaeda only
:17:18. > :17:23.entered Syria and these extremists materialised 1.5 years ago. At the
:17:24. > :17:27.beginning, there was no such thing. They are there now. Because we did
:17:28. > :17:29.not get the help that was needed. These governments must ask
:17:30. > :17:30.themselves why we have this phenomenon. Is it not because the
:17:31. > :17:35.Free Syrian Army, moderate nationalist there, as described by
:17:36. > :17:40.the UN, did not get the help they needed? Whatever the reason. That
:17:41. > :17:46.might be one that history books need to consider. That is the situation
:17:47. > :17:48.on the ground as it now exists. Given those unpalatable options, do
:17:49. > :17:55.you accept that for some people and some important people, they would
:17:56. > :18:01.refer President Assad gone, so it matters more that he is the mosts
:18:02. > :18:06.don't run Syria found that you do. We are the people who don't want
:18:07. > :18:11.Islamists to run Syria `` Islamists. You should be making a
:18:12. > :18:15.deal with President Assad than. They are two different evils, caused by
:18:16. > :18:21.the presence of each other. Because the regime was allowed to go on,
:18:22. > :18:26.because the Free Syrian Army could not defend themselves, we have the
:18:27. > :18:30.creation of this phenomenon. The more the Free Syrian Army has to
:18:31. > :18:36.fend for itself without real help, the more people, and we have seen
:18:37. > :18:39.this in Afghanistan, Pakistan, all over, when they are faced with
:18:40. > :18:43.despair, they turn to extremist groups getting their own financing.
:18:44. > :18:52.The problem is those extremist groups it Dow enjoy support on the
:18:53. > :18:57.ground. And insurgency centre member, Charles Lister, said,
:18:58. > :19:04.al`Nusra enjoys remarkable levels of support. Across the anti` government
:19:05. > :19:06.population. Key members of Western backed coalitions, your
:19:07. > :19:11.organisation, has not content al`Nusra because it manages
:19:12. > :19:17.countless relationships with localised moderate rebel groups. It
:19:18. > :19:23.is part of the broader coalition of the ground. For some people, it is
:19:24. > :19:27.actually acceptable. Al`Nusra is considered one of the allies of Al
:19:28. > :19:33.Qaeda. They have issued a fatwa against the Free Syrian Army
:19:34. > :19:36.leaders. And, against the leader of the National coalition of Syrian and
:19:37. > :19:41.fighters. He might not like you. On the ground, it is part of the fight
:19:42. > :19:46.against President Assad. And, it is one that is acceptable to some
:19:47. > :19:50.people. It is not acceptable to the back as you have outside. You are
:19:51. > :19:55.between a rock and a hard place. Most of us reject extremism. Just
:19:56. > :20:02.like we reject the extremism of President Assad. There are two evil
:20:03. > :20:05.forces. There is one opposition and revolution force fighting both of
:20:06. > :20:13.them. Tony Blair said last week in a speech in London, no shirt of
:20:14. > :20:20.intervening in the middle east. He thinks it is necessary. He is no fan
:20:21. > :20:23.of extremism. `` shirk. There are so many problems around elements within
:20:24. > :20:29.the opposition that people are wary of any solution that is victory for
:20:30. > :20:34.either side. Extremist groups should not receive support from surrounding
:20:35. > :20:38.nations, which you agree it. Here is a subject in which the principal
:20:39. > :20:44.nations of the G20 could come together. China and Russia, the US
:20:45. > :20:50.and Britain. They can all agree that they don't want Islamists in control
:20:51. > :20:57.in Syria. In the past, they haven't been able to agree on the future of
:20:58. > :21:02.President Assad. Maybe, it is possible, listening to Tony Blair
:21:03. > :21:04.and Ryan Crocker, that they might now. They should follow news in
:21:05. > :21:07.Syria more closely and not look at the big cliches in the media. They
:21:08. > :21:09.should follow the battles that the Free Syrian Army is conducting
:21:10. > :21:14.against these terrorists. We repeat of this is not this dichotomy that
:21:15. > :21:17.we are fighting for. It is not either President Assad or the
:21:18. > :21:24.terrorists. That is what President Assad has been trying to convince
:21:25. > :21:28.the world. He is winning because there are people fighting those
:21:29. > :21:32.terrorist entities. That is the regime and Al Qaeda. If you give
:21:33. > :21:38.support to those who are secular or on the record, we agree to the
:21:39. > :21:41.Geneva communique and have issued a statement of principles in Geneva,
:21:42. > :21:50.which outlined a vision for a secular or released it, death and
:21:51. > :21:53.aquatic Syria. It is not include the terrorists of Al Qaeda. You have
:21:54. > :21:58.said several times, the humanitarian situation in Syria is appalling. A
:21:59. > :22:01.report by the UN complained that none of the parties in the conflict
:22:02. > :22:05.adhered to the demands of the Security Council to allow
:22:06. > :22:10.humanitarian access. They say that access is denied by all sides. Do
:22:11. > :22:16.you accept that on the ground, some of your supporters are doing that as
:22:17. > :22:21.much as government is doing that? There are lots of mistakes. I
:22:22. > :22:26.repeat, everybody has committed war crimes should be tried and indicted.
:22:27. > :22:30.The High Commissioner of human rights at the UN says that the
:22:31. > :22:37.excesses and crimes of the regime far outweigh those of any rebels. We
:22:38. > :22:43.have to consider who the rebels are. Are they Free Syrian Army? Or the
:22:44. > :22:50.terrorists? Millions of refugees have fled. Some near Damascus were
:22:51. > :22:54.reduced, according to the UN, to eating animal feed or nothing at
:22:55. > :23:00.all. If you were to win, why were those who have starved, those who
:23:01. > :23:05.have been displaced, welcome you and your colleagues back? No one is
:23:06. > :23:10.saying the National coalition should be the one to run Syria or that the
:23:11. > :23:13.Free Syrian Army should take over. We are calling for a transitional
:23:14. > :23:15.governing body. Once the body is in, there will be people from the
:23:16. > :23:17.current government, some from the opposition, who work together and
:23:18. > :23:23.draft a new constitution and call for elections. When we went Syria? A
:23:24. > :23:29.few months before the revolution started. Over three years ago. In
:23:30. > :23:33.the spring, in the summer sorry, of 2010. We have family in Syria. We
:23:34. > :23:41.understand the frustrations of people. This is the reason why the
:23:42. > :23:46.sooner real pressure is put on the regime, the sooner people like us
:23:47. > :23:52.can go back to Syria. Will you be welcomed after what has happened?
:23:53. > :23:59.You have contributed to the misery people are experiencing just as the
:24:00. > :24:07.President Assad regime has done. You have prolonged this war. I most
:24:08. > :24:10.Syrians will tell you this is not a war, this is a repression, a war of
:24:11. > :24:14.the people. People in Syria are not fighting one another. There are
:24:15. > :24:17.foreign militias fighting each other. We are trying to fight them
:24:18. > :24:21.off. Rime Allaf, thank you for talking to us on HARDtalk. Thank you
:24:22. > :24:39.for speaking with me. A change in the weather is on its
:24:40. > :24:45.way for the end of the week but for the time being we start on a mild
:24:46. > :24:50.night. Great, misty and murky day for most to begin with. A bit of
:24:51. > :24:53.brightness breaking through in western areas. In the south, showers
:24:54. > :24:55.will start developing once again and by the afternoon some of those will
:24:56. > :24:56.be heavy and sundry. The emphasis will