:00:00. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Yemen is the Arab world's
:00:19. > :00:21.slow motion car crash. A humanitarian, economic and security
:00:22. > :00:26.disaster, that makes precious few headlines in the outside world. The
:00:27. > :00:30.Yemeni government is supposed to be in the middle of a major programme
:00:31. > :00:35.of political and economic reform, but right now it's focus appears to
:00:36. > :00:42.be a major assault on local Al Qaeda stronghold. My guess is Abu Bakr
:00:43. > :00:43.al`Qirbi, the veteran Foreign Minister. If Yemen is a failing
:00:44. > :01:06.state, who is to blame? Abu Bakr al`Qirbi, welcome to
:01:07. > :01:12.HARDtalk. Nice to be with you again. It is pretty much three years
:01:13. > :01:16.since popular rebellion swept through Yemen, and looking at your
:01:17. > :01:20.country today, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that very little has
:01:21. > :01:28.changed, and all of the hopes invested in the uprising have been
:01:29. > :01:34.dashed. Would you agree? No. I think we should be very pleased that Yemen
:01:35. > :01:42.took apart very different from Syria, from Libya, from Egypt. That
:01:43. > :01:50.Yemen has managed to achieve transfer of power through democratic
:01:51. > :01:56.means, and that the situation now is certainly a coalition of political
:01:57. > :01:59.parties, dialogue which is establishing a future for Yemen. So
:02:00. > :02:05.I don't think that the hopes are dashed. Maybe economically there are
:02:06. > :02:09.problems that are faced by the Yemeni people, but I think on all
:02:10. > :02:17.fronts, Yemen's position is better on all fronts, than it was in 2011.
:02:18. > :02:23.A few faces have changed, you have a new president, he is new, albeit
:02:24. > :02:29.elected in a field of just one, but the real fact is that entrenched
:02:30. > :02:36.power still lies with the same old elite as before. I think this is
:02:37. > :02:42.probably to some extent true, but there is still a change of faces in
:02:43. > :02:52.government. With respect, that means very little to the people. The
:02:53. > :02:56.change, as far as the economy, has been achieved, because unfortunately
:02:57. > :02:59.the instability of terrorism and violence is still there, and the
:03:00. > :03:06.government can't cope with everything in three years. I just
:03:07. > :03:10.look at the words of President Abd Rabbuh Mansur Hadi himself, he was
:03:11. > :03:15.the deputy to President Ali Abdullah Saleh, and he is now in charge, and
:03:16. > :03:20.he says that the former president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, is still, in
:03:21. > :03:24.essence, blocking many of Yemen's attempts to reform itself. He points
:03:25. > :03:28.to the fact that his wider family, including brothers, cousins, sons,
:03:29. > :03:36.are still dominant in so many economic sectors in Yemen, and if
:03:37. > :03:40.you do look at the former president's position, still running
:03:41. > :03:48.much of the government, I come back to this point. Very little has
:03:49. > :03:51.changed. President Ali Abdullah Saleh is still the leader of one of
:03:52. > :03:58.the major political parties in the country, and it is part of the GCC
:03:59. > :04:05.initiative that there is a 50`50% division in government between the
:04:06. > :04:09.ruling party and opposition parties. If you also look on the
:04:10. > :04:12.side of the opposition parties, you will see that the leadership is
:04:13. > :04:20.exactly the same, it hasn't changed. This nothing has changed.
:04:21. > :04:24.You were the first Foreign Minister in 2001, you have been in and out of
:04:25. > :04:29.the foreign ministry ever since. Your PM I believe is aged 79, the
:04:30. > :04:35.President himself is pretty much 70, you have an old guard, a generation
:04:36. > :04:38.of leaders who dominate your country, when the reality is that
:04:39. > :04:43.most of the people in Yemen are desperately poor, and I think two
:04:44. > :04:47.thirds of them are aged under 24. They look at people like you, and
:04:48. > :04:52.they think, you are entirely out of touch with their needs. I think this
:04:53. > :04:57.is probably a presumptuous statement. I think people look at
:04:58. > :05:03.us, especially as old guards, but I think they also look at us as a
:05:04. > :05:12.stable factor between now and the next election. I don't think we have
:05:13. > :05:15.taken over, in this government, the responsibility for stabilising the
:05:16. > :05:20.situation and the GCC initiative. Maybe all of us are old guard, but
:05:21. > :05:25.we are also people who are committed to implement the GCC initiative, to
:05:26. > :05:34.prepare a new institution and gopher elections. That is what we are
:05:35. > :05:35.doing. Old guards with old habits. The reputable corruption measuring
:05:36. > :05:40.organisation, transparency International, has you now down
:05:41. > :05:45.almost at the very bottom of the global index on corruption. The US
:05:46. > :05:48.State Department reports that anybody in Yemen who blows the
:05:49. > :05:55.whistle on official corruption either rents up five or coming to
:05:56. > :05:58.some other form of personal harm. Corruption is more endemic today
:05:59. > :06:04.than it was before the uprising. This is unfortunate, I agree with
:06:05. > :06:10.you. This is a fact, and I don't think anyone can defend corruption,
:06:11. > :06:16.I would certainly not. The people you work with other problem. I think
:06:17. > :06:20.some of them are, not all of them. Once again, you generalise.
:06:21. > :06:24.Corruption is everywhere, but not everyone is corrupt. Therefore, you
:06:25. > :06:29.have to look at it in the sense that this is a transitional period,
:06:30. > :06:36.people have to tolerate it until we hope a new election will did the
:06:37. > :06:43.people a new government that can maybe resolve all these issues. I
:06:44. > :06:48.suppose it comes we have seen the long`running dialogue, the national
:06:49. > :06:52.dialogue, to try to thrash out a new constitutional settlement, and
:06:53. > :06:58.insure a transition to genuine democracy. The trouble is, after all
:06:59. > :07:01.of the talk, and I think 1400 different specific puzzles to go
:07:02. > :07:14.into a new constitution, we appear to be no closer to a real, unifying
:07:15. > :07:22.consensus. No, I think many of them that did not achieve consensus...
:07:23. > :07:27.The federalisation of Yemen, for example. The government says there
:07:28. > :07:33.will be six autonomous regions, as well as the capital region. We have
:07:34. > :07:36.had the leader of the southern secessionist union saying absolutely
:07:37. > :07:41.not, that is unacceptable, and we will continue our struggle and
:07:42. > :07:48.ignore this. The hoody leaders in the North, they have also rejected
:07:49. > :07:53.it, where is the consensus? It is still debatable now. I think you
:07:54. > :08:03.have to understand that in Yemen, we also go through this, dialogue is
:08:04. > :08:08.always a wave of reaching an agreement. I think that people, in
:08:09. > :08:17.spite of the misgivings of the outcomes, should approve Yemen for
:08:18. > :08:27.continuing to have this dialogue. You say that all of this is leading
:08:28. > :08:32.in pot a positive direction, that Yemen is on a path to a genuine
:08:33. > :08:35.transition. Why is it the case that those supporters and friends of
:08:36. > :08:41.Yemen, and they call themselves the friends of Yemen, who have promised
:08:42. > :08:46.vast financial assistance, are now saying, unless we can believe in
:08:47. > :08:49.your commitment to deliver genuine change, we are not going to give you
:08:50. > :08:57.any more money? No, I think they say, unless you do economic reforms,
:08:58. > :09:02.we are not going to deliver them. Not change, because they all
:09:03. > :09:08.understand that changes taking place. You have just been here for a
:09:09. > :09:13.meeting... Yes, and this is one of the contentious issues. The issue of
:09:14. > :09:17.the subsidies for fuel. Because you have a fiscal crisis, the government
:09:18. > :09:24.is spending money it doesn't have. This has to be rectified, and our
:09:25. > :09:28.friends and allies are right in saying that we have to correct the
:09:29. > :09:31.deficit by removing the subsidies. At the same time, they must
:09:32. > :09:37.understand that in a very fragile political situation, people have
:09:38. > :09:40.also to be given hope that there is improvement in their standards of
:09:41. > :09:46.living, that we are moving forward on the economic side, before you
:09:47. > :09:50.subject them to additional cost through the removal of subsidies. It
:09:51. > :09:54.cannot have escaped your notice that such is the lack of patience with
:09:55. > :10:03.Yemen, in the UN Security Council for example, serious consideration
:10:04. > :10:05.is being given to sanctions. Targeted sanctions on those members
:10:06. > :10:11.of the old guard in Yemen who are deemed to be most responsible for
:10:12. > :10:17.the corruption that has laid your country low. Do you support the idea
:10:18. > :10:23.of opposing sanctions? Yes, I think everyone in Yemen does. The former
:10:24. > :10:29.president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, doesn't welcome them. His party has
:10:30. > :10:32.welcomed it. Would you welcome sanctions? I don't think you should
:10:33. > :10:45.look at individuals. This is the road problem, what is important is
:10:46. > :10:48.that the major political parties, that major sanction should be put in
:10:49. > :10:55.place for those who are destructive to change. Would you welcome
:10:56. > :11:08.sanctions being imposed on former president Ali Abdullah Saleh and his
:11:09. > :11:16.family. Anyone who obstructs . So yes? It talks about all those who
:11:17. > :11:20.are obstructive to the process. Yes. At the beginning of this interview,
:11:21. > :11:23.you frankly acknowledge that there is a whole generation of old guard
:11:24. > :11:30.leaders in your country who have been tied to corrupt practices. This
:11:31. > :11:36.it could mean the end for a generation of leaders. Yes, that is
:11:37. > :11:40.true. That is why there is change in Yemen now. We have talked diplomacy,
:11:41. > :11:46.let's now talk a bit more directly about security. Here are the words
:11:47. > :11:53.of a respected analyst, who actually try to form a new political party in
:11:54. > :11:59.your country in 2011, and he said recently that in 2011 people were
:12:00. > :12:05.willing to drop their guns and work for the idea of a civil state. Now,
:12:06. > :12:11.he said he feels that people again feel that you can achieve more if
:12:12. > :12:17.you take up arms. I don't agree with that at all. Anybody who says that
:12:18. > :12:21.should look at Syria. Nobody is saying that taking up arms does
:12:22. > :12:27.anything positive for your country, but the fact is, if civil society
:12:28. > :12:32.still appears broken, if corruption and the old guard are still in
:12:33. > :12:37.place, then many people in your country may well feel on a local
:12:38. > :12:42.level, maybe because of tribal identity, religious identity, that
:12:43. > :12:46.they have a right to take up arms. What happened in 2011, there was
:12:47. > :12:53.change, maybe it is not complete, but there is change now. It wasn't
:12:54. > :12:59.achieved by arms. Let's look at one particular element of the security
:13:00. > :13:06.situation, that is the continued presence of Al Qaeda in the Arabian
:13:07. > :13:11.Peninsula, on Yemeni territory. In the last few weeks, you have
:13:12. > :13:20.launched another major offensive against them. Few have `` do you
:13:21. > :13:27.have any faith that you can end the conflict? I think if anyone had
:13:28. > :13:33.achieved that in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. This is what we have always
:13:34. > :13:37.advocated, but fighting terrorism needs a more copper heads of
:13:38. > :13:49.approach, and not using the military alone. `` com prohibitive approach.
:13:50. > :13:56.This is to make sure they achieve their political objectives by
:13:57. > :13:59.democratic means, not by terrorism. Perhaps you should deliver that
:14:00. > :14:03.message to your own president and your own military, because we have
:14:04. > :14:14.seen airstrikes, drone strikes, military ground assaults, and dozens
:14:15. > :14:17.and dozens of civilians... These have to be done, unfortunately, to
:14:18. > :14:26.prevent them from undertaking terrorist attacks. Civilians have to
:14:27. > :14:28.be killed? Civilians, no, civilians have unfortunately been accidentally
:14:29. > :14:34.injured because they were in close proximity. And killed. Look what
:14:35. > :14:40.happened at the wedding party last year. 12 and 15 members of that
:14:41. > :14:44.wedding party were killed, they were civilians. That was regrettable, and
:14:45. > :14:48.the government took responsibility and compensated them. They were in
:14:49. > :14:59.the same convoy of cars as terrorist groups. A human rights activist to
:15:00. > :15:01.have looked at many of the military incidents, which have been called
:15:02. > :15:08.counterterror, which appear to have killed civilians, says this: The
:15:09. > :15:12.brutal reality is Yemenis are forced to live with the fear of terrorism
:15:13. > :15:18.that comes not just from Al Qaeda but from the state as well. I think
:15:19. > :15:23.the state use of force is really to protect the innocent from being
:15:24. > :15:32.murdered and mutilated in a terrorist attacks. Unfortunately,
:15:33. > :15:37.there are always innocent people in the vicinity and they are affected
:15:38. > :15:42.by it. Have you seen the research from political scientists which
:15:43. > :15:49.showed that there is a direct correlation between rising Al Qaeda
:15:50. > :15:53.membership on the ground and those areas where, for example, drone
:15:54. > :15:59.strikes have been focused? There is a direct correlation. I haven't seen
:16:00. > :16:04.that. Does it surprise you? It doesn't. There is always sympathy
:16:05. > :16:11.when they are civilians killed, that people tend to react and be
:16:12. > :16:16.sympathetic. In fact, it's a sort of counter active `` counter productive
:16:17. > :16:21.strategy? We knew this would last 11 years. If it is counter`productive,
:16:22. > :16:28.why are you still doing it? What else will we do? Let terrorists, and
:16:29. > :16:32.conduct attacks? But you are making the problem worse, recruiting new
:16:33. > :16:34.terrorists for the way you conduct your security operations. That's
:16:35. > :16:42.what I said earlier. That's why we have defined new ways of really...
:16:43. > :16:45.We are establishing in Yemen now strategies to counter`terrorism that
:16:46. > :16:50.will not look at the military side only but on all social, economic,
:16:51. > :16:56.educational and religious issues. It is a very conflict matter. It's easy
:16:57. > :17:00.to talk about not using force and personally I am a doctor and I am
:17:01. > :17:07.against using force. You can't tie your hands. Well, you can adopt the
:17:08. > :17:11.most sensible strategy and admittedly in very difficult
:17:12. > :17:16.circumstances. To let us specifically address the question of
:17:17. > :17:27.whether Yemen is sensible to continue to allow American drone
:17:28. > :17:33.strikes on your territory. Yemen is using its own forces. They have used
:17:34. > :17:42.drones because of necessity. These are American drones. Yes, but they
:17:43. > :17:46.argue is to buy direction of the Yemeni government in remote areas.
:17:47. > :17:50.Human Rights Watch says in January the president indicated to their
:17:51. > :17:59.officials that he does not insist on preapproval of every specific US
:18:00. > :18:03.drone strike. He says they are generally permitted according to
:18:04. > :18:06.parameters that have been agreed. There is co`ordination between
:18:07. > :18:11.Alston at agencies and the Americans. There is co`ordination
:18:12. > :18:17.but does the president signed off on every single American... I don't
:18:18. > :18:25.know about that. I have no information about that. Do you think
:18:26. > :18:29.you should? Yes. And if he doesn't? I think he should. How do you
:18:30. > :18:33.characterise the security relationship with the US? There's
:18:34. > :18:38.lots of talking Yemen about Yemen being agreeable to building a new
:18:39. > :18:43.detention at `` detention camp, a Guantanamo Bay style detention camp,
:18:44. > :18:48.to put those 80 or so prisoners from Guantanamo that are Yemeni, to put
:18:49. > :18:53.them on your territory and in a sense get President Obama out of a
:18:54. > :18:59.whole. I don't think this is true. `` a hole. These people who will be
:19:00. > :19:06.released from Guantanamo and will come back to Yemen after 12 or 13
:19:07. > :19:09.years of detention and psychological trauma, you can't just bring them
:19:10. > :19:16.and put them back into their comedies. We have to address this
:19:17. > :19:19.psychological trauma. We have to train them. We have to prepare them
:19:20. > :19:24.to be integrated back into their communities. What you call a
:19:25. > :19:30.detention centre is a rehabilitation centre. Isn't this the most basic
:19:31. > :19:39.fact, Foreign Minister, that in the end Yemen is so reliant on American
:19:40. > :19:44.military, financial, and other forms of assistance, that in essence you
:19:45. > :19:54.will do what the Americans tell you to do? This is not true. We rely on
:19:55. > :19:58.British assistance, on other countries, but in the end Yemen
:19:59. > :20:04.takes the decision that it serves its own national interests. When you
:20:05. > :20:09.look at the situation in Yemen, and the president has said this, the
:20:10. > :20:16.number of foreigners who have come to Yemen and joined from many other
:20:17. > :20:24.countries, including Britain, and those who are now leaving Syria and
:20:25. > :20:29.come to Yemen, how can they get to Yemen and pass through so many
:20:30. > :20:33.countries? Who is responsible? But that's missing the point. He says
:20:34. > :20:39.that 70% of nearly `` militant fighters in Yemen are foreigners. He
:20:40. > :20:43.has at different times laid Iran for creating trouble in the north of
:20:44. > :20:50.your country. `` blades. It's easy to blame outsiders. No, of course.
:20:51. > :20:54.But I am telling you the facts. Are their foreign fighters in Yemen or
:20:55. > :21:00.not? Of course. I come back to this point... How do they come from
:21:01. > :21:10.Britain? From Syria? From Saudi Arabia? Who is responsible? Yemen?
:21:11. > :21:14.Yemen is responsible for... A local MP saw civilians killed by US drones
:21:15. > :21:21.and said that this is the primary motivation for local people to join
:21:22. > :21:27.Al Qaeda. No, I think you have to accept all so that every country is
:21:28. > :21:33.responsible, as well as Yemen. If you don't admit that, this is one of
:21:34. > :21:42.the failures of filing terrorism. Let's end by just trying to tease
:21:43. > :21:46.out hope for Yemen's future. `` failing terrorism. We have alluded
:21:47. > :21:51.to the economic mess your country is in. That's why you are in London, to
:21:52. > :21:56.try to get new assistance and goodness knows your country needs
:21:57. > :21:58.it. I believe more than half of Yemen's people currently rely on
:21:59. > :22:06.humanitarian assistance. Poverty is rising. Because of demographics, the
:22:07. > :22:11.problems will get worse. Yes. I believe the population could double
:22:12. > :22:13.in the next 20`25 years. As a man who cares passionately about the
:22:14. > :22:21.future of your country, how do you convince me that Yemen's future is
:22:22. > :22:29.anything but bleak? I think it's very difficult to answer for sure.
:22:30. > :22:32.Yemen has the potential. This potential can be realised, I hope,
:22:33. > :22:38.through changes taking place through the help of the friends of Yemen
:22:39. > :22:41.now, through focusing on the economy and security, as well as on
:22:42. > :22:45.political issues. I have said in the friends of Yemen meeting that over
:22:46. > :22:51.the last three years everybody was preoccupied with politics and
:22:52. > :22:54.neglected the economy and security. And that the friends of Yemen now
:22:55. > :22:59.fight against terrorism and extremism in Yemen and that's part
:23:00. > :23:09.of the global fight against extremism and terrorism, whether it
:23:10. > :23:14.is Islamic or not. Therefore, unless people look at the cost Yemen pays
:23:15. > :23:18.for this and tries to help it the situation will get worse. But I felt
:23:19. > :23:22.yesterday and before yesterday that there is a commitment from our
:23:23. > :23:28.brothers in the GCC, from Europeans, from British, from Americans, that
:23:29. > :23:32.they are willing to stand by Yemen. In the politest most diplomatic
:23:33. > :23:37.possible way, isn't that akin to a form of blackmail? You are saying to
:23:38. > :23:43.the outside world, you have to help us because, if you don't, the
:23:44. > :23:47.consequences for regional and international security will be so
:23:48. > :23:54.bad that we can't be answerable for what happens in Yemen. You can't
:23:55. > :24:01.call it blackmail if it is true. If it is true it isn't blackmail. So,
:24:02. > :24:06.the security consequences, the continued failure in Yemen, will be
:24:07. > :24:11.grave? It will be for the region and for the world. This is why people
:24:12. > :24:22.have to stand by Yemen in this very critical transitional period. We
:24:23. > :24:23.have to end of their `` there. Abu Bakr al`Qirbi, thank you for being
:24:24. > :24:52.on HARDtalk. It will be southern parts of the UK
:24:53. > :24:56.that get the best deal as far as the bank holiday weekend is concerned
:24:57. > :24:57.but for Friday it is northern areas that get the