:00:00. > :00:16.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:17. > :00:24.Welcome. We are broadcasting from the BBC's radio Theatre in London.
:00:25. > :00:34.Benjamin Chavis was one of those wrongfully convicted for and
:00:35. > :00:37.incident which involved what was called the first political
:00:38. > :00:42.prisoners. They were only part of one year ago. A group who has
:00:43. > :00:45.campaigned his whole life or black people to have the same freedoms as
:00:46. > :00:48.white people. Working for Martin Luther King when he was just 14 and
:00:49. > :00:55.many years later organising the million man March. American ``
:00:56. > :01:01.America is called the land of the free. Does that apply if you are
:01:02. > :01:12.black? Please welcome Benjamin Chavis.
:01:13. > :01:21.Does a black child, worn in America in 2014, have just as many
:01:22. > :01:28.opportunities as a white child? `` born in America. I believe a black
:01:29. > :01:32.child born this year in the US has more opportunities than ever before
:01:33. > :01:35.but still not equal opportunities. We still have racial prejudice,
:01:36. > :01:41.racial bias, racism is still a factor in our society. But I can
:01:42. > :01:45.give you a long and so. In the past 50 years I have seen tremendous
:01:46. > :01:50.progress. The fact we have an African American as president of the
:01:51. > :01:54.United States is testimony to the fulfilment of the dream of Martin
:01:55. > :01:58.Luther King Jr. But they say freedom is a constant struggle. You don't
:01:59. > :02:01.take the progress for granted, you keep pushing until there is full
:02:02. > :02:06.equality, a full integrated society. There is still a need for the civil
:02:07. > :02:12.rights movement? Absolutely. That's good back to 1971, February, North
:02:13. > :02:16.Carolina. That was a time when the schools had just ended segregation.
:02:17. > :02:21.Black students there felt they were getting a raw deal. And you were
:02:22. > :02:28.sent there on the part of your church, as a young man, you are a
:02:29. > :02:36.minister in the church and you were sent there to do what? I was 24 but
:02:37. > :02:41.I was a 12 year veteran of the student rights movement. I was sent
:02:42. > :02:48.there to help with the desegregation progress. The integration of schools
:02:49. > :02:54.just didn't happen. We had to go to the federal court. They wanted to
:02:55. > :02:59.provide an opportunity for black young people and white young people
:03:00. > :03:06.to go to school together and there was resistance. A riot took lace. ``
:03:07. > :03:10.took place. Even though we were victims of the riot, we were the
:03:11. > :03:13.target of the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist organisations. One
:03:14. > :03:25.year later, in 1972, we were indicted and were charged. Ten of us
:03:26. > :03:28.were charged to 282 years in prison. I have the longest sentence. 34
:03:29. > :03:32.years. Before we get into what happened with the court process,
:03:33. > :03:37.perhaps we should explain what it was like for a young black guy
:03:38. > :03:42.growing up in the US at that time. In the early 1970s, it was three
:03:43. > :03:47.years since Martin Luther King Jr. 's assassination. Ronald Reagan was
:03:48. > :03:50.president. There was a law and order campaign to suppress the civil
:03:51. > :03:56.rights movement after Dr King's assassination. I was one of the
:03:57. > :04:03.young student militants, I must admit, that was arousing the black
:04:04. > :04:06.consciousness of our community. My church sent me to Wilmington to help
:04:07. > :04:16.provide an opportunity for young people to express themselves. How?
:04:17. > :04:20.You used the word militant, which is just you are prepared to go pretty
:04:21. > :04:25.far to get what you wanted. I was pushing the envelope. Keep in mind,
:04:26. > :04:29.basic freedom is the freedom of expression. The right to say no to
:04:30. > :04:36.racism. The right to say no to injustice. A lot of times, in many
:04:37. > :04:39.places, not just the US but around the world, people's rights to even
:04:40. > :04:45.say no to injustice has been suppressed. And that was the case in
:04:46. > :04:50.Wilmington in 1971. You had come from... In your own town, you were
:04:51. > :04:57.the first black child to have a library card. I desegregated the
:04:58. > :05:03.library in my home town. I grew up in Oxford, North Carolina. You asked
:05:04. > :05:07.for a library card? It was not that simple to get a library card. I wish
:05:08. > :05:10.it was that simple to just ask. We had to organise protests. In case of
:05:11. > :05:14.the desegregating the library, my parents were still with me. I was so
:05:15. > :05:17.proud that they stood with me as I demanded the right to simply check a
:05:18. > :05:20.book out of the library. Racism is very devastating to any group, any
:05:21. > :05:26.racial group that denies you basic opportunity, basic assets. Even
:05:27. > :05:36.though I was very young, I understood that something needed to
:05:37. > :05:40.change. OK. So you are angry, justifiably, given what you are not
:05:41. > :05:43.able to do but what does that mean that you did in Wilmington. Because
:05:44. > :05:47.you say that you are the victims. One thing that I learnt from Dr King
:05:48. > :05:50.was how to channel anger into protest. That's what we did. I
:05:51. > :05:54.believe in standing up, but you have to stand up in the right way. With
:05:55. > :06:04.freedom comes responsibility so we organised nonviolent protests. We
:06:05. > :06:06.presented demands. There was a white owned grocery store which was
:06:07. > :06:11.firebombed that night. Somebody firebombed, not the Wilmington Ten.
:06:12. > :06:17.And, even to this day, nobody really knows what happened. And two people
:06:18. > :06:27.died. During the riot. Here is the thing. It took 40 years. The first
:06:28. > :06:30.female governor of North Carolina in 2012. We were sentenced in 1972. It
:06:31. > :06:34.took 40 years for the Governor, not just issue a part in to issue a
:06:35. > :06:37.pardon of innocence. That was very important. They did their research
:06:38. > :06:42.and realised that we should not have been arrested. We should not have
:06:43. > :06:46.been imprisoned or prosecuted in the first place. I am very thankful that
:06:47. > :06:55.the governor of North Carolina had the courage to issue asked a pardon.
:06:56. > :06:58.`` us a pardon of innocence. But why was it Courageous? Because,
:06:59. > :07:01.actually, your conviction had been overturned years before back in
:07:02. > :07:07.1980. There were various things that happened, your sentence was reduced,
:07:08. > :07:10.the testimony was retracted. A federal court overturned the
:07:11. > :07:14.conviction and yet it was 40 years. And you say it was courageous, why?
:07:15. > :07:17.Because sometimes it is difficult for people in a dominant role in
:07:18. > :07:29.society to confess to racism. That is difficult. The honourable
:07:30. > :07:35.governor, in issuing the pardon, said, "Rhis is a case of naked
:07:36. > :07:40.racism". That is difficult for elected officials, even in 2012, to
:07:41. > :07:49.admit. Even now. And given the facts of the case? Absolutely. Sometimes
:07:50. > :07:52.it is not about the facts. It's about telling the truth. And it was
:07:53. > :07:55.not because, actually, it wasn't so clear cut that there were some
:07:56. > :07:59.people who think, whatever happens then that you may have had some role
:08:00. > :08:05.in it. I definitely had a role in mobilising. I had a role in standing
:08:06. > :08:09.up and speaking out. But we were totally innocent of the false
:08:10. > :08:16.charges of arson. Totally innocent of conspiracy to assault emergency
:08:17. > :08:21.personnel. You served four years out of ten. What was that like? I would
:08:22. > :08:26.not encourage anyone to go to prison to strengthen their faith. Prison
:08:27. > :08:37.was difficult. It was hard and life`threatening. I decided to keep
:08:38. > :08:41.my faith in God. Life threatening... I decided not to serve time but make
:08:42. > :08:43.time serve the cause of the liberation movement of our people.
:08:44. > :08:47.What do you mean by life`threatening? There was one
:08:48. > :08:57.report that you did not dare go to the shower rooms for six months. The
:08:58. > :09:01.first six months, in 1972, I could not go to the shower because there
:09:02. > :09:04.was a plot to stab me in the showers. I didn't want to get
:09:05. > :09:10.stabbed so I stayed in my cell. You say that you used the time to get a
:09:11. > :09:14.masters degree in theology. From Duke University. I was a minister
:09:15. > :09:24.and I wanted to sharpen my skills. Anyone has to decide how you use
:09:25. > :09:28.your time. Whether you are free or in prison, wherever you are, it's
:09:29. > :09:31.how you use your time to make your own self better, to make your
:09:32. > :09:34.community better and to make the world better. And you read in the
:09:35. > :09:38.bathroom at night because you could not use... Lights out in your cell
:09:39. > :09:40.meant... That is correct. You eventually, when you come out, you
:09:41. > :09:53.continued, at this stage the conviction has been overturned but
:09:54. > :09:56.you have not been pardoned. When you are in your 40s, 1993, you were
:09:57. > :09:59.elected to lead what is a hugely important organisation, the NAACP.
:10:00. > :10:05.Important to you because you were given membership for your 12th
:10:06. > :10:08.birthday. And it's America's oldest, largest civil rights organisation
:10:09. > :10:15.with half a million members. A big deal for you. It is the world 's
:10:16. > :10:19.oldest civil rights association. The NAACP, I was so pleased having
:10:20. > :10:28.joined it at 12 years old. To be elected in 1993. One of my proudest
:10:29. > :10:38.moments was inviting Nelson Mandela in 1993 to speak at the convention.
:10:39. > :10:41.But it didn't go well because, within a short time, someone
:10:42. > :10:42.threatened to bring a case against you for sexual harassment,
:10:43. > :10:46.discrimination, wrongful dismissal. You arranged a settlement with the
:10:47. > :10:55.NAACP's funds and you did not tell the board. It came out and they
:10:56. > :11:05.sacked you. Well, let's go back to the facts. The fact is, when you are
:11:06. > :11:09.a civil rights leader, people will make false allegations against you.
:11:10. > :11:17.At the time, there was a former employee who made false allegations.
:11:18. > :11:20.Why did you agree to pay her? I wanted to reach an out of court
:11:21. > :11:22.settlement to protect the organisation from these false
:11:23. > :11:25.allegations. I want to correct one thing, some members of the board did
:11:26. > :11:29.know about it. The full board didn't. The chairman knew about it
:11:30. > :11:32.as well as the general council. Do you regret, was it a mistake to use
:11:33. > :11:36.money to try and settle... You say the allegations... It wasn't a
:11:37. > :11:39.mistake to settle. The mistake was not to inform the full board. Do you
:11:40. > :11:47.think the whole board would have agreed? Absolutely. To defend
:11:48. > :11:51.itself. To spend ?300,000. That amount was not spent. One of the
:11:52. > :11:58.reasons it came to light was that you gave her less than that and you
:11:59. > :12:01.did not settle the full amount. I raised that personally. I just want
:12:02. > :12:09.to correct the record. You were sacked one year later. Was there a
:12:10. > :12:24.sense of betrayal that led you then to go from there to accept a senior
:12:25. > :12:26.position in the Nation of Islam? I wouldn't say it was betrayal, there
:12:27. > :12:31.was a dispute. The board had to write to make a determination that
:12:32. > :12:37.it did. I am still a member of the NAACP. Yesterday `` you felt a
:12:38. > :12:40.victim at the time? I am sort of a veteran of people making false
:12:41. > :12:46.allegations. I know how to withstand it. Not about feeling a victim? It's
:12:47. > :12:51.not about feeling of it. It is important, if you are victimised by
:12:52. > :12:55.any kind of injustice, who have not only the freedom to speak out
:12:56. > :13:00.against it but to call the facts as they are. K. You joined the nation
:13:01. > :13:07.of Islam, you took a senior position in a separatist movement, a
:13:08. > :13:10.controversial separatist movement, calling for... That
:13:11. > :13:18.African`Americans should have their own nation. Was that a wise thing to
:13:19. > :13:20.do? Absolutely. First of all, let's get the chronology straight. After
:13:21. > :13:23.the NAACP, I was the national director of the Million Man March,
:13:24. > :13:27.still as a Christian minister. That was in 1995, I did not join the
:13:28. > :13:31.Nation of Islam until 1997. I am very proud of the work that I did
:13:32. > :13:34.while I was in the Nation, we helped reduce black on black crime in many
:13:35. > :13:37.communities, helped to stop some of the self`destruction that was going
:13:38. > :13:40.on in many neighbourhoods. That is why I joined, because I wanted to
:13:41. > :13:45.get more hands`on on improving the lives of young African`Americans.
:13:46. > :13:49.That was the whole purpose of the Million Man March, which was very
:13:50. > :13:52.successful, transformative. Sure, but after the Million Man March, you
:13:53. > :13:55.changed your name to Benjamin Chavis Mohamed, and there were criticisms
:13:56. > :13:57.of the Nation of Islam, that it still existed, but that they were
:13:58. > :14:12.anti`Semitic, antiwhite, prejudiced against gays, is that how you came
:14:13. > :14:16.to see them? No, absolutely. Even though I work very closely with
:14:17. > :14:20.ministers, and I did have a senior position in Nation of Islam, and no
:14:21. > :14:25.time did I ever witness or hear any anti`Semitism. On one occasion,
:14:26. > :14:28.there was one person, a former collective of the Nation of Islam,
:14:29. > :14:35.who made some anti`Semitic remarks, and I denounced that person for
:14:36. > :14:42.doing it. There are several comments of one person referring to the Jews
:14:43. > :14:54.as satanic. The work that I did with the Nation, I am very proud of.
:14:55. > :15:00.We helped save lives and transform lives, the Million Man March... It
:15:01. > :15:03.is almost the 20th anniversary of the Million Man March, and I think
:15:04. > :15:06.it will be a moment that people celebrate. It is the largest
:15:07. > :15:09.gathering, on October 16, 1995, in American history. I understand. But
:15:10. > :15:12.your association with the Nation of Islam that your former... I
:15:13. > :15:18.associate with a lot of people. Thank God for my associations. I
:15:19. > :15:29.associated with Martin Luther King, I associated with Nelson Mandela.
:15:30. > :15:33.Why did you fall out with them? I didn't fall out with them, I just
:15:34. > :15:38.went back to the church. Why didn't the Nation of Islam get rid of you?
:15:39. > :15:44.It is not about getting rid of, it is about evolving. Why life is about
:15:45. > :15:47.evolving. We are celebrating freedom in 2014. Love and good times?
:15:48. > :15:50.Absolutely. You returned to your church, who decided to terminate
:15:51. > :15:54.your ministry. They didn't feel that a Christian minister should try to
:15:55. > :15:58.be a Muslim minister, that is their right. Can you see their point? It
:15:59. > :16:02.is a little contradictory to say that with God all love is possible,
:16:03. > :16:07.and then we try to do all things that are possible, and people
:16:08. > :16:11.criticise you. I am very proud of my evolution, and I think that you
:16:12. > :16:14.learn as you go in life, and I thank the world in which we live in today,
:16:15. > :16:21.is a much better place because people sacrifice, people stand up,
:16:22. > :16:27.people speak out. No mistakes there with the Nation of Islam? Not at
:16:28. > :16:30.all. You said at the outset that huge progress has been made, but
:16:31. > :16:33.there is still a lot. A black child born today does not have the same
:16:34. > :16:38.opportunities as a white child. When you look, the numbers are
:16:39. > :16:44.staggering. In the 70s, in 1967, they basically earned half of what a
:16:45. > :16:46.white household did. That has hardly changed. Black unemployment rate,
:16:47. > :16:57.home ownership, black unemployment is still double the rate of white
:16:58. > :17:03.people as it was in the 50s. Why have those economic possibilities
:17:04. > :17:06.not changed for black people? There is a problem of income inequality,
:17:07. > :17:11.institutionalisation of economic injustice, and it takes time. You do
:17:12. > :17:22.not solve a problem, a social problem, a racial problem, in two or
:17:23. > :17:25.three decades. It takes a long time. We are talking about 50 or 60 years,
:17:26. > :17:35.and these are hardly shifting, these figures. There is a serious
:17:36. > :17:37.contradiction about the disproportionate impact of the
:17:38. > :17:41.criminal justice system in the US has had on black people, no question
:17:42. > :17:54.about it. I want to make sure you are understanding what I am saying.
:17:55. > :17:59.The figures that you have said are accurate. Those figures expose the
:18:00. > :18:05.problem of racial injustice, and that it is very deep`seated in in
:18:06. > :18:08.the US. Even though we have an African American as president, that
:18:09. > :18:13.doesn't mean that we don't still have problems. The fact that we have
:18:14. > :18:17.a black President in the White House is itself a very serious step
:18:18. > :18:21.forward, to not only shedding light on these contradictions, some people
:18:22. > :18:28.say that the glass is half empty. I don't, I say it is half full. All
:18:29. > :18:33.the progress we have made is worth continuing to keep pushing... Some
:18:34. > :18:41.people say that that man in the White House has not done what he
:18:42. > :18:44.should have done. I disagree... That there are fewer African`American
:18:45. > :18:47.cabinet members than George W Bush had. Less than half the number that
:18:48. > :18:58.Bill Clinton had. I believe that President Barack Obama is one of the
:18:59. > :19:01.best presidents the US has ever had. He's in his fifth term, just
:19:02. > :19:04.yesterday seven million people signed up for Obamacare, getting
:19:05. > :19:07.healthcare for the first time. Here in London, you have healthcare. We
:19:08. > :19:10.don't have that in the US. It takes time. When President Obama was
:19:11. > :19:25.elected, the economy was wrecked. George W Bush wrecked the economy.
:19:26. > :19:28.There were two wars that we should never have been in, in Iraq and
:19:29. > :19:31.Afghanistan. He has ended those wars. The NAACP says of him that
:19:32. > :19:34.since he took office, white people in this country are doing better,
:19:35. > :19:38.and black people are doing a full point worse. The responsibility of
:19:39. > :19:42.the NAACP is to call it how it is... And that is the way it is? That is
:19:43. > :19:45.the way it is. The income gap for blacks and whites has widened. Since
:19:46. > :19:49.President Obama came in? No, it was widened before he came in. That is
:19:50. > :19:53.what they are saying. That is not accurate. I am reading a quote.
:19:54. > :19:57.Since President Obama first took office... I believe the gap between
:19:58. > :20:11.blacks and whites in the US is too wide. The question is, how can it be
:20:12. > :20:14.bridged? I believe that President Obama is doing a good job, I think
:20:15. > :20:17.that they have just had a report that the housing statistics and the
:20:18. > :20:19.foreclosure rates, blacks had the highest foreclosure rates, which
:20:20. > :20:28.started before Obama became president, but now it is coming down
:20:29. > :20:33.a bit. Black unemployment is still one of the highest, but it is coming
:20:34. > :20:36.down a little bit. All of these things you have to calibrate, and I
:20:37. > :20:40.think that taking a broad stroke analysis of whether or not Obama is
:20:41. > :20:50.a good president or not, it is sort of unfair. Perhaps it comes down to,
:20:51. > :20:52.your whole life... If you compare Barack Obama to President Bush,
:20:53. > :21:03.hands down, he is a better president. Hands down. The American
:21:04. > :21:06.philosopher and academic, Cornel west, said that if you keep folks
:21:07. > :21:09.intimidated and scared, you give them access, but they are still
:21:10. > :21:18.scared, and as long as they are scared you are on the plantation.
:21:19. > :21:24.Cornel west is a close friend of mine, we are colleagues. Certainly,
:21:25. > :21:27.he is one of the great intellectual giants of our society. His
:21:28. > :21:31.criticisms have some validity, but my point is that we tend to be
:21:32. > :21:34.overly critical, we tend not to see the progress that is being made, and
:21:35. > :21:37.particularly for the young people who are coming up today, my job is
:21:38. > :21:50.to keep them encouraged, not to discourage. This is not a hopeless
:21:51. > :21:54.situation, we have made progress. Is there more progress to be made? Yes.
:21:55. > :22:03.Are we headed in the right direction? Yes. Should it be in the
:22:04. > :22:10.hands of the people? It is always in the hands of the people. This
:22:11. > :22:15.militancy, do you still feel militant? It depends on what you
:22:16. > :22:24.mean by militant. You used the word at the outset. I am still a seasoned
:22:25. > :22:27.militant freedom fighter. Today. But, I fight for freedom in ways
:22:28. > :22:31.that can really help change the quality of life of people. Not just
:22:32. > :22:35.for black people, but for all people. I just want to make sure
:22:36. > :22:38.that you understand that I am here on this programme not only to fight
:22:39. > :22:42.for the rights of black people, but for the rights of all people. What
:22:43. > :22:46.you find out, it you can't stand up for freedom for yourself, you have
:22:47. > :22:52.to stand up for freedom for people. Blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians,
:22:53. > :22:55.people from all over the world. That is why I have worked all over the
:22:56. > :23:00.world to make sure that people's rights are improved. Martin Luther
:23:01. > :23:06.King said it best, an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice
:23:07. > :23:13.everywhere. You would still be asking for people to rise up against
:23:14. > :23:17.injustice? Absolutely. Keep marching, keep standing up, keep
:23:18. > :23:24.speaking out. We had a bigger worldwide freedom movement than we
:23:25. > :23:30.did 50 years ago... Why? Because of the injustices, sometimes people
:23:31. > :23:35.become too tolerant of injustice. Like environmental justice, it is a
:23:36. > :23:40.major thing. A lot of people are disproportionately exposed to
:23:41. > :23:42.environmental hazards. Having to build the worldwide environmental
:23:43. > :23:48.Justice movement, that is something I am working on now. Doctor Benjamin
:23:49. > :23:50.Chavis, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk. Ladies and
:23:51. > :24:30.gentlemen, Benjamin Chavis. Good morning. Yesterday, the showers
:24:31. > :24:33.were particularly widespread, but the weather through the rest of this
:24:34. > :24:38.week would be very unsettled, dominated by low pressure. It is
:24:39. > :24:40.sitting to the north of the UK, these weather fronts keeping showers
:24:41. > :24:42.going well into the night.