:00:00. > :00:12.in ruins. Now it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me Zeinab Badawi here in the township outside
:00:20. > :00:24.Johannesburg where Nelson man Della first went to after his release ``
:00:25. > :00:29.Soweto `` Nelson Mandela. These are the first elections since his death.
:00:30. > :00:34.Does the ANC, the party he loved, deserved to win, or, does it need to
:00:35. > :00:42.reinvent itself to answer its critics who say it is failing poor
:00:43. > :00:43.black people? My guest to `` today is Makaziwe Mandela, Nelson
:00:44. > :01:07.Mandela's eldest child. Makaziwe Mandela, welcome to
:01:08. > :01:10.HARDtalk. Does the ANC, the party your father loved, deserved to win
:01:11. > :01:18.these elections are you'll definitely. `` elections?
:01:19. > :01:21.Definitely. It deserves to win the election. It is a party that has
:01:22. > :01:28.worked hard to get us where we are today. I think, with all the
:01:29. > :01:33.problems that we have within the ANC, I still think it deserves to be
:01:34. > :01:43.the party that wins. With all the parties within the ANC, what are you
:01:44. > :01:48.talking about? It is no great secret that there are factions and conflict
:01:49. > :01:54.within the party. In the last elections, there was a breakaway
:01:55. > :01:58.group. Are you talking about the group which broke away, the group
:01:59. > :02:07.which were unhappy about the movement at the time? Yes. It is
:02:08. > :02:13.public knowledge that a former Defence Minister of the ANC made at
:02:14. > :02:20.call that people shouldn't vote or spoil their votes, which I think is
:02:21. > :02:25.irresponsible. I think that however you want to look at it, it is a
:02:26. > :02:32.party that we still look fondly at. It has a history. Our parents paid
:02:33. > :02:38.with their lives. We, as their children, suffered a lot. It is a
:02:39. > :02:42.party that has done quite a lot despite the challenges. We still
:02:43. > :02:48.have a lot of challenges. No one disputes that this is the party of
:02:49. > :02:51.liberation by people say that isn't enough any more. 20 years since your
:02:52. > :02:54.father became the first democratically elected resident of
:02:55. > :03:01.South Africa. It's not enough any more to save that we are the party
:03:02. > :03:07.of liberation, we need to reinvent yourself. If you look at 20 years
:03:08. > :03:13.ago, and where we are today, I think the ANC South Africa has a good
:03:14. > :03:16.story to tell. The way we live today is better than how we were living
:03:17. > :03:22.before. There are a lot of things that have changed. There is a lot of
:03:23. > :03:26.access for black people today. Yes, you can talk about the violence that
:03:27. > :03:33.we have experienced in South Africa, which is what people mostly talk
:03:34. > :03:38.about. But, violence exists in most parts of the world. Progress has
:03:39. > :03:48.been made. The government says 3 million new housing use `` units had
:03:49. > :03:53.been built. But I put it to you still, the University of Cape Town
:03:54. > :03:56.published in March, published a study saying that 12 million South
:03:57. > :04:03.Africans go to bed hungry every night, many of them including
:04:04. > :04:09.children. Is that progress? There were many more who went to bed...
:04:10. > :04:17.Bad, that is progress from a very low base. We come from a low base.
:04:18. > :04:24.We quickly forget where we come from in South Africa. Many more people do
:04:25. > :04:28.not have jobs. They couldn't live in the suburbs. They couldn't even live
:04:29. > :04:31.in towns. Just because they were hidden in rural areas, doesn't mean
:04:32. > :04:38.that they were out of poverty. They were still in poverty. We come from
:04:39. > :04:43.a violent... (CROSSTALK) you still don't have jobs. Figures say 25% of
:04:44. > :04:51.the population is without work and it could be up to 40% for young
:04:52. > :04:58.people. They have no work. You in America, the `` you can't expect
:04:59. > :05:05.miracles overnight. In America, it is just as high. America has had
:05:06. > :05:10.over 100 years. When I went there as a student, no one told me where
:05:11. > :05:14.black people lived. I knew, because it was the same as where we were
:05:15. > :05:19.living here in South Africa. That country has had freedom for how many
:05:20. > :05:22.years? 300 years. How much longer to South Africans today, who don't have
:05:23. > :05:28.enough to eat or a job, no prospect of a job, don't have electricity,
:05:29. > :05:35.how much longer do they have to wait in your view? Another 20 years? I
:05:36. > :05:41.think that we are trying. I think the ANC government is trying, with
:05:42. > :05:45.their limited resources. You have to understand that when the ANC came
:05:46. > :05:50.into power, they had to service the party debt. If they didn't have to
:05:51. > :05:57.do that, the money would have been used to address poverty in this
:05:58. > :06:01.country and development. The finance minister for 13 years in this
:06:02. > :06:07.country just now standing down as the minister in the office of the
:06:08. > :06:12.President, he says that last year in April 2013, we, the government
:06:13. > :06:16.should no longer say it is a's fall. You can't keep laying the blame on
:06:17. > :06:22.things which aren't as a result of the apartheid. He was the minister
:06:23. > :06:29.of finance. He was the one who allowed their government, one that
:06:30. > :06:32.serviced the apartheid debt, he is the one who allowed the corporate
:06:33. > :06:39.sector in this country to actually take lots of money out of this
:06:40. > :06:51.economy into England and America. You are the sizing Trevor Manuel Ros
:06:52. > :06:56.he was it is very good. It is smart to say, we can't blame apartheid. I
:06:57. > :07:02.am not saying we should. I am saying that he historic factors that cannot
:07:03. > :07:07.be ignored, that we were beset with, that we couldn't ultimately within
:07:08. > :07:15.20 years white away, 350 years of injustice and inequality `` white
:07:16. > :07:20.away. I am only saying give the ANC a chance to address that. I am
:07:21. > :07:26.asking you how much time? I don't know. One year, five years? As the
:07:27. > :07:29.economy grows, we will be able to address the social inequalities of
:07:30. > :07:38.this country. People are impatient now. They said, look, we, like the
:07:39. > :07:42.appeal of this new agenda set up by Julius, head of the ANC Youth League
:07:43. > :07:46.who was expelled from the party, we like what he says and what Ronnie
:07:47. > :07:52.Caswell is saying, don't vote for the ANC because they are delivering.
:07:53. > :07:58.They say they like the appeal of the alternative messages. I don't know
:07:59. > :08:03.how many people like the appeal or the alternative messages. We will
:08:04. > :08:18.not know until we know the results. Not when you `` not until the
:08:19. > :08:25.election. South Africans are very impatient in terms of delivery of
:08:26. > :08:30.services. I won't deny there has been corruption, I will admit it.
:08:31. > :08:42.And there has not been enough service delivery. If there are
:08:43. > :08:47.things going wrong in the ANC, and if my father was alive, he would
:08:48. > :08:53.criticise within the ANC and try to correct those things within the ANC.
:08:54. > :08:58.He wouldn't criticise, however, the ANC outside. He wouldn't agitate for
:08:59. > :09:04.people to not vote for the ANC. Because, he believes strongly that
:09:05. > :09:08.things that were wrong in the ANC need to be corrected within the ANC.
:09:09. > :09:13.When the former Defence Minister of the government says to people, I am
:09:14. > :09:17.leaving the vote, no campaign, don't vote or vote for the alternative,
:09:18. > :09:23.they are wrong. What about Desmond Tutu when he said recently, don't
:09:24. > :09:34.vote cattle. He is saying something similar. Let me put it to you this
:09:35. > :09:44.way. I respect Desmond Tutu as an elder statesman. He also doesn't get
:09:45. > :09:51.it right, however. The ANC has been criticised long before this. Yes,
:09:52. > :10:01.you shouldn't vote casual. Unfortunately, I want to say to you,
:10:02. > :10:14.in this country, it's not the individuals who directly appoint a
:10:15. > :10:19.president. You vote for a party. The party vote for a president. Until we
:10:20. > :10:28.directly appoint Anderlect officials into government, can they be
:10:29. > :10:37.accountable to the larger populous? `` appoint and lacked. Let me talk.
:10:38. > :10:40.`` and lacked. I believe in the party and what it stands for. Fact
:10:41. > :10:45.that there might be things that might not be going right in the
:10:46. > :10:49.party and that there might be individuals doing things that don't
:10:50. > :10:55.adhere to the principles, doesn't mean the party is wrong. It's like
:10:56. > :11:00.marriage. When you are in a marriage, the fact that other people
:11:01. > :11:09.do certain things in marriage, abuse their wives, it doesn't make the
:11:10. > :11:18.institution of marriage... (CROSSTALK) you have made that point
:11:19. > :11:22.clear pool dumber. `` you have made the point clear. The leader
:11:23. > :11:29.generally becomes president. Is it automatic? Will it be Jacob Zuma?
:11:30. > :11:35.And, what is the ANC doesn't do well, if it gets less than 60%.
:11:36. > :11:42.Could there be a move to say that, resident Jacob Zuma, we aren't sure
:11:43. > :11:51.you should continue as resident. `` president. It has to go in terms of
:11:52. > :11:57.who is at the top of the list. We have seen Mbeke overturned in the
:11:58. > :12:08.past. It could happen again. Let me tell you. We don't want to go there.
:12:09. > :12:13.I need to give you... Is it possible there could be a split within the
:12:14. > :12:17.ANC. Someone saying we don't think it has performed well and we don't
:12:18. > :12:27.want Jacob Zuma to be president. Or, he resident, but notice. Just for
:12:28. > :12:36.one or two years and not five years. I'm not in the national executive. I
:12:37. > :12:45.believe there is a raging debate in the party about the issues that are
:12:46. > :12:52.conflicting. There are people who are addressing those issues. What do
:12:53. > :13:05.you mean? How long Jacob Zuma stays in Rice no. ``? No. I don't think
:13:06. > :13:12.you can blame Jacob Zuma. It is the movement itself. The senior members
:13:13. > :13:19.of the movement, the National committee who make the decisions. If
:13:20. > :13:25.there is a finger to be pointed, it can't be pointed at Jacob Zuma. It
:13:26. > :13:32.has to be pointed at the party as a whole. You bring up your father. In
:13:33. > :13:39.1993. He loved the party, but said that if the ANC does to you what the
:13:40. > :13:41.apartheid government did, then you must do to that government what you
:13:42. > :13:53.did to the apartheid government. 20 years on. Which is what? What do you
:13:54. > :14:02.think it must have meant by that? How was apartheid removed? They as a
:14:03. > :14:06.movement organised themselves to make the apartheid ungovernable. Are
:14:07. > :14:12.you saying you can do that with the ANC if it does to you what the
:14:13. > :14:19.apartheid government did? Of course. They know fully well that it is not
:14:20. > :14:23.there to do just whatever they want. They have a mandate of the people to
:14:24. > :14:30.govern. That mandate of the people is to say, we want to live in an
:14:31. > :14:35.environment that is not discriminatory, that is not sexist.
:14:36. > :14:40.Where blacks are free to move anywhere, where we have access to
:14:41. > :14:45.education, good education, will have access to jobs and all those things.
:14:46. > :14:50.You don't have that. The world economic or on put you at 146 out of
:14:51. > :14:58.148 in a recent study in terms of education standards. I put it to you
:14:59. > :15:03.that no government or liberation movement, when it took power, has
:15:04. > :15:10.ever just climbed the grass like this. You have two have a dip before
:15:11. > :15:15.you climb back up. `` grass. As a criticism of your late father, in
:15:16. > :15:18.terms of this, he did a lot to bring South Africa together after
:15:19. > :15:24.apartheid, he did little to dismantle the economic system so it
:15:25. > :15:28.is still disproportionately benefiting the whites in South
:15:29. > :15:33.Africa and now, we can see the enrichment of a smaller number of
:15:34. > :15:37.black South Africans. And the black middle class is very fragile. Is
:15:38. > :15:47.that a legitimate criticism of your father 's legacy? I don't think it
:15:48. > :15:52.is legitimate, as I said, there is no individual, there is no "I"
:15:53. > :16:02.within the ANC, but there is a" weak" . People can criticise, ``we.
:16:03. > :16:08.They did not dismantle overnight inequalities in society but there is
:16:09. > :16:14.a danger that if you are not moving deliberately and thoughtfully, you
:16:15. > :16:20.end up having a country like Zimbabwe, where they ease capital
:16:21. > :16:26.flight and you will... The economy will be completely dismantled. You
:16:27. > :16:31.have to understand, when the ANC came into power, there were very few
:16:32. > :16:35.of us black people, who were highly educated. Highly skilled, highly
:16:36. > :16:46.trained, who could take over, Billy, the equality. `` fully. We were only
:16:47. > :16:50.educated to a certain level. I think what the ANC has done is to
:16:51. > :16:57.encourage more people to move into education, and to acquire very high
:16:58. > :17:01.levels of education. We are not where we want to be in 20 years, we
:17:02. > :17:06.could not be there in 20 years. People still have to wait. People
:17:07. > :17:12.have to wait and be patient. There is a lot of change that is happening
:17:13. > :17:18.in the education system. Inequality is the new apartheid system in South
:17:19. > :17:23.Africa, isn't it? You find that inequality in terms of class and in
:17:24. > :17:30.terms of economic power defines a whole lot of countries in the world.
:17:31. > :17:36.I would say that there is not any country, perhaps Scandinavia, that
:17:37. > :17:41.can claim that. Outside of them, no one can claim that they are. I would
:17:42. > :17:46.like to ask you, there have been some public arguments within your
:17:47. > :17:54.family, and your stepmother, Winnie Mandela, says that it should be
:17:55. > :18:01.used, Makaziwe Mandela, the eldest child of Nelson Mandela and you're
:18:02. > :18:10.2/2 sisters who should be the heirs of the Mandela family ``two half
:18:11. > :18:19.sisters. Who is the head of the family? Look, by default, I am the
:18:20. > :18:27.oldest child. But, it is a nonsensical argument really, in my
:18:28. > :18:36.view, the cause when Walter passed away, there was no debate as to who
:18:37. > :18:44.was the head of the family. Was there any debate about who becomes
:18:45. > :18:49.head of that family? It is a nonsensical argument. Who has the
:18:50. > :18:59.right to use the Mandela name? You are making wine, under that name?
:19:00. > :19:02.From me, to my sisters, to all of the grandchildren, the 21
:19:03. > :19:08.grandchildren, they have the right to use that name. And benefit from
:19:09. > :19:15.it economically? And benefit, as long as... It is right. You make
:19:16. > :19:28.wine, you have the means to make medallions... Dad wanted to live
:19:29. > :19:31.rate South Africa, not only participate in politics but
:19:32. > :19:38.participate in every sector of society. `` liberate. The first
:19:39. > :19:45.independent leader of Ghana, political freedom, without economic
:19:46. > :19:53.freedom, is near, and we are experiencing it now. We are not
:19:54. > :20:01.going anywhere fast with our independence. For me, when he has
:20:02. > :20:06.been asked by his grandchildren, how do you want us to honour you? He
:20:07. > :20:11.said in any way you see fit, as long as you do it with integrity, with
:20:12. > :20:19.honesty, respect of who you are. As a Mandela. It is an agricultural
:20:20. > :20:28.product which comes from African soil, and employs over 350,000 in
:20:29. > :20:32.this country, it contributes may be over 1 billion dollars. How do you
:20:33. > :20:36.know in the future that the name or not be abused? This great man who
:20:37. > :20:41.was admired by so many all over the world, we saw the turnout at his
:20:42. > :20:47.funeral... It is a risk that we take. Even if... We just started
:20:48. > :20:53.getting into the commercial sector, it was abused, long before he was
:20:54. > :20:58.alive, people were making all kinds of things with his name. It is our
:20:59. > :21:10.right to claim the right of hours. When we talk... When I talk about
:21:11. > :21:15.House of Mandela, I am not talking about the politician, I am talking
:21:16. > :21:21.about what has given him all he has. He emphasises, I was made by
:21:22. > :21:27.the traditions and customs of my ancestors. It is those values, and
:21:28. > :21:33.those customs, those traditions, that we honour. That must continue.
:21:34. > :21:38.You cannot die with it. Do you think that legacy and those values are
:21:39. > :21:41.being upheld by the present leadership of the ANC president,
:21:42. > :21:46.Jacob Zuma? We saw how he was booed at your father 's funeral, at the
:21:47. > :21:51.stadium, when that happened. That does not look like you see the
:21:52. > :21:59.current leadership upholding those values, that you say your father
:22:00. > :22:08.had. It was unfortunate. It is not African. For President Zuma to be
:22:09. > :22:12.booed in a stadium. Not only as President, most of those people who
:22:13. > :22:17.booed when younger than him. We don't do that in an African culture.
:22:18. > :22:24.If we are unhappy, there is a way that we voice our unhappiness. With
:22:25. > :22:28.respect, and dignity. It was not a reflection, what happened at my
:22:29. > :22:32.father 's memorial service was not a reflection on Jacob Zuma but a
:22:33. > :22:37.reflection on us, South Africa as a society. We appointed, as South
:22:38. > :22:43.Africans, Jacob Zuma into the position that he is. If we feel that
:22:44. > :22:53.he is going astray, and not doing his job... Was he upset? I don't
:22:54. > :22:58.know, I did not talk to him about it. I know that I felt embarrassed
:22:59. > :23:02.that day, to be a South African. As people now discuss the future of the
:23:03. > :23:11.ANC and if it wins the election, and what it will do... Not if, but they
:23:12. > :23:15.will win. They could get a bloody nose, people are discussing what
:23:16. > :23:23.they will do. A landmark for you, you turned 60 in May.
:23:24. > :23:28.Congratulations. Nelson Mandela 's eldest child... Will you go into
:23:29. > :23:35.politics? No, that is not my role. It is the role of the younger
:23:36. > :23:39.generations. I am happy. I am happy with where I am in the commercial
:23:40. > :23:44.sector, and I believe that we can't all go into politics. We had to
:23:45. > :23:49.spread, we had to spread ourselves. Some go into politics, some have got
:23:50. > :23:53.to go into the economic sectors, and I believe that we had to transform
:23:54. > :23:59.the economic sector. Makaziwe Mandela, thank you very much indeed
:24:00. > :24:05.for coming on HARDtalk. Zeinab Badawi, I appreciated. `` appreciate
:24:06. > :24:25.it. Showery weather over the last few
:24:26. > :24:30.days will give way to more general wet weather through the day ahead.
:24:31. > :24:34.The showers have continued through the night, they are easing the way,
:24:35. > :24:36.we are watching this mass of cloud towards the south`west, gathering
:24:37. > :24:46.moisture and strength in the weather system. It is not only going to give
:24:47. > :24:48.us rain