:00:00. > :00:17.Other reports put the figure much lower. Now on BBC News it's time for
:00:18. > :00:23.Hardtalk. World come to HARDtalk, I am Terry. 100 years of trauma, an
:00:24. > :00:26.assessment of Nigeria's century, none more apparent than in the
:00:27. > :00:28.kidnapping of hundreds of schoolgirls by an Islamist group
:00:29. > :00:30.that perceives learning as an alien imposition by Christians and
:00:31. > :00:34.Europeans `` welcome. Wole Soyinka is Nigeria's most prominent writer,
:00:35. > :00:37.the first African to be awarded the Nobel Prize for literature.
:00:38. > :00:43.Persecuted by past government is for his commitment to democracy, what
:00:44. > :00:48.did he make of how Nigeria has stood up to pressures of insurgency, then
:00:49. > :00:55.temptations of oil wealth, and is a state that cannot guarantee the
:00:56. > :01:01.safety of its children have a future? `` does a state. `` the
:01:02. > :01:26.temptations. Wole Soyinka, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:27. > :01:30.As a writer, the son of a school teacher, what sort of feelings are
:01:31. > :01:37.provoked by you, in a group with such a deep hatred of learning? As
:01:38. > :01:45.Boko Haram? Sometimes, I feel that it is like a waste of life. That we
:01:46. > :01:49.should come to this part, after what we have known of the struggles, not
:01:50. > :01:55.only of Nigeria, but Nigeria in the context of the African wanted. To
:01:56. > :02:03.come to a situation, where, almost like a simple ordinary event, 300
:02:04. > :02:07.schoolchildren, they are children, they are abducted. And, one month
:02:08. > :02:15.later, we don't know where they are definitively. `` African continent.
:02:16. > :02:21.To bring them back, for me, that is the negation of my existence. That
:02:22. > :02:27.group, that philosophy, is that a challenge to everything that you
:02:28. > :02:32.have believed in and fought for three word and deed over the last
:02:33. > :02:38.half a century? Does it feel that personal? Absolutely, I feel that it
:02:39. > :02:47.is a negativity, in fact, my understanding of humanity and of
:02:48. > :02:56.society and community, and ideology, it is my existence, at that stage in
:02:57. > :03:01.my life. 300 of my children have been abducted, that is how it feels.
:03:02. > :03:09.But also, there have been warnings, and so on and so forth, that makes
:03:10. > :03:14.it even more painful. It is on a level where remedial action can be
:03:15. > :03:19.taken immediately, that is what is horrifying. I noticed that 18 months
:03:20. > :03:24.ago, you talked about the need for the nation to places on a war
:03:25. > :03:29.footing. You said there is too pussyfooting. What did you mean by
:03:30. > :03:33.that? Firstly, I have been saying this for the past five years. In
:03:34. > :03:41.lectures, and could mean occasions, and what I mean is that a nation
:03:42. > :03:45.cannot continue to live and organise its existence. `` communications.
:03:46. > :03:50.With policies and actions, as if nothing has happened. Something
:03:51. > :04:05.dramatic happened, the moment that a group of people decided that they
:04:06. > :04:13.would be run according to only ones wishes. I am referring to Sharia. It
:04:14. > :04:17.was, where you like, where it began structurally. But the signs have
:04:18. > :04:26.been there before, with intolerance, from one side to the other, it has
:04:27. > :04:32.been escalating, . Does that mean that religion is the problem? That
:04:33. > :04:36.this is a war of God? It is not the only problem, but we are running
:04:37. > :04:42.away, we are running away from recognising the fact that this is a
:04:43. > :04:51.situation of the tale attempting to wag the dog. If you are living in a
:04:52. > :04:58.secular constitution, or, as some people prefer, as a plural group.
:04:59. > :05:04.``tail. A plural religious constitution, that allows for
:05:05. > :05:10.certain laws to be made, which bind everybody. When a section detaches
:05:11. > :05:21.itself, I use this language of a type, that state has seceded from a
:05:22. > :05:24.nation. Unless everyone is brought back under the same constitution,
:05:25. > :05:31.and that is when this division became structured. And power was
:05:32. > :05:35.given. To only one section. It raises the interesting question of
:05:36. > :05:39.whether this is about more than just Boko Haram, a group that has the
:05:40. > :05:46.ability on the ground to terrorise parts of that community, or, whether
:05:47. > :05:51.in a sense that community, you could argue, is complicit in all of this.
:05:52. > :05:54.Last month you wrote whether the people themselves were sometimes
:05:55. > :06:00.collaborators in the shrinkage of that space of choice and freedom?
:06:01. > :06:03.Could Boko Haram have established themselves in this way if there was
:06:04. > :06:09.not that degree of complicity? They took advantage of that, of the
:06:10. > :06:16.negation of the quality of space and rights. Some politicians recognise
:06:17. > :06:23.the fact that the opportunity was there. They brought together this
:06:24. > :06:30.religious fanaticism on one hand, and established a rain of impurity.
:06:31. > :06:35.I will not bore you with a catalogue of impunity of homicide, on the
:06:36. > :06:38.basis of religion. Either as an individual or in the sacking of
:06:39. > :06:47.entire communities. Including in the capital. Abuja, when the Boko Haram
:06:48. > :06:58.mentality took over the entire capital. It has been building up all
:06:59. > :07:09.of the time. Now, the pupils of these religious extremists, what we
:07:10. > :07:18.`` they sought the advantage in turning on their own mentors. Once
:07:19. > :07:24.you accept the right and the possibility of a small section, to
:07:25. > :07:27.rule it over the entirety, sooner or later, the instruments and their
:07:28. > :07:36.soldiers will become even radicalised. The look of those, and
:07:37. > :07:42.say that you are not sufficiently is a most. `` they look at them. Would
:07:43. > :07:45.it be possible if there was not a perception in large parts of the
:07:46. > :07:52.north that the state, that Nigeria that was created 100 years ago, that
:07:53. > :07:59.Nigeria that proudly claimed their independence, has become a state for
:08:00. > :08:03.some and not all? That is right, it is where actualisation comes in.
:08:04. > :08:15.Where the class detentions becomes so white, and corruption becomes an
:08:16. > :08:23.ideology of the nation. `` wide. You see people living in palaces. Let me
:08:24. > :08:28.put you about corruption, this is what the president said a few days
:08:29. > :08:32.ago, he said over 70% of what is called corruption is not corruption
:08:33. > :08:38.but common stealing. Corruption is perception and not reality. Is that
:08:39. > :08:44.correct or semantics? Well, English as a foreign language, one has to
:08:45. > :08:52.make allowances for how individuals and groups use the language.
:08:53. > :08:56.Especially when the language is convenient for evading reality is,
:08:57. > :09:01.and responsibilities, of governments. For heavens sake, I ask
:09:02. > :09:04.you, when we talk about corruption, material corruption, and some would
:09:05. > :09:12.say that it is not corruption that we had to deal with, but it is
:09:13. > :09:16.stealing. What does that tell you? Either a total lack of understanding
:09:17. > :09:26.of the society that you live in, or you can confuse it, you can confuse
:09:27. > :09:33.the national leader, it depends on what it is. I find that it is the
:09:34. > :09:39.same kind of evasion. In this case, it does not affect an individual but
:09:40. > :09:45.it is a national responsibility of over 120 million people. 40 years
:09:46. > :09:48.ago, the man died, and you wrote that justice is the first condition
:09:49. > :09:50.of humanity, isn't that the first condition of humanity, is another
:09:51. > :09:54.failure that draws together a number of these problems? That the state
:09:55. > :10:00.has come in a sense, Nigeria, the country that you love, has
:10:01. > :10:04.institutionalised injustice? Yes, if justice is, as I believe, the
:10:05. > :10:08.condition of humanity, then a large swathe of the nation has been
:10:09. > :10:14.dehumanised, and the culpable people, they are there, they are
:10:15. > :10:20.caught with their pants down, and they resort to their interpretation
:10:21. > :10:25.of the Scriptures. They blame those who schooled in the same Scriptures,
:10:26. > :10:29.and they say, these people have not gone far enough. The reason for that
:10:30. > :10:33.is that they basically corrupt and have been using religion. So, they
:10:34. > :10:39.turn on those, and finally, everybody is guilty. So, how should
:10:40. > :10:44.the nation respond to this? We have seen protests outside the National
:10:45. > :10:49.Assembly in the last few days, 500 people for missing. There have been
:10:50. > :10:53.previous incidents, you will remember earlier this year, 50 young
:10:54. > :10:58.boys were burned to death in a school that was attacked, or they
:10:59. > :11:01.were killed as they tried to escape. That did not create much attention
:11:02. > :11:05.in Nigeria, and scarcely any in the outside world. Now, we have a focus
:11:06. > :11:11.and the offer of international help. How should that be utilised by
:11:12. > :11:18.the states machinery? How should the nation deal with this problem?
:11:19. > :11:28.Firstly, by going backwards, and understanding, as we say in our
:11:29. > :11:32.society, where the rain began. With the bombing of the United Nations
:11:33. > :11:37.headquarters, and the police headquarters, go further back. The
:11:38. > :11:49.invasion of the capital, individual assassinations, and, see section is
:11:50. > :11:56.a wrong word, secretive, I am talking about ( `` cessation. Go
:11:57. > :12:04.back to communities and recognise where really the culture of impunity
:12:05. > :12:10.became established. Where was it established? Before I was born, I
:12:11. > :12:15.remember a harmonious existence between other religions. Where
:12:16. > :12:21.Christians interacted with Muslims, where so`called pagans or
:12:22. > :12:28.traditional religions, where everyone had their own space. Then,
:12:29. > :12:35.how did it change? Who manipulated the change? By the time you look at
:12:36. > :12:40.the entire picture, you find the implement of impunity. Then, you
:12:41. > :12:44.begin to eradicate impunity. That is on the level of social
:12:45. > :12:47.transformation, the mental transformation of people. Then,
:12:48. > :12:51.before you transform people, they have to be there are the people, to
:12:52. > :12:58.be transformed. That is where military and security comes in.
:12:59. > :13:08.Allowing understanding that what is happening in Nigeria, even if it was
:13:09. > :13:11.homegrown, has crossed its borders and admitted there are those sports
:13:12. > :13:15.of fundamentalism in other societies. If you pour in
:13:16. > :13:19.international help, if he had Europeans and Americans in Nigeria,
:13:20. > :13:23.do you create a propaganda coup for a group like Boko Haram who say
:13:24. > :13:32.that, actually, the Nigerian state is only a cover for colonialism?
:13:33. > :13:36.Nigerian soldiers have performed at intervened in Yugoslavia and
:13:37. > :13:42.Lebanon, we have our soldiers still there in central Africa. If we have
:13:43. > :13:46.responded to the crisis of our nations, not only on the African
:13:47. > :13:52.continent, what is wrong with calling for help now? It is not
:13:53. > :13:56.cashing in our checks. It is saying that we are part of one common
:13:57. > :13:59.humanity, and we recognise that there are certain common problems,
:14:00. > :14:08.which cannot be solved internally alone. But in trying to tackle
:14:09. > :14:13.this, in trying to deal with the insurgency, the Nigerian military
:14:14. > :14:16.has found itself accused of human rights abuses and some serious
:14:17. > :14:24.allegations, which have led many human rights groups to say that what
:14:25. > :14:28.we are seeing in the north is a cycle of killings but in part with
:14:29. > :14:31.disenchantment with the government and the government's actions. One
:14:32. > :14:35.senior Army officer has said that hundreds have been killed in
:14:36. > :14:39.detention, either by shooting or suffocation. Many will not find that
:14:40. > :14:45.any more appealing than the insurgency of Boko Haram. You and I
:14:46. > :14:53.know that globally, the moment the first shot is fired anywhere on
:14:54. > :14:57.earth, issues of human rights begin. The important thing of course
:14:58. > :15:03.is to be so careless or complicit to allow that first shot to be fired.
:15:04. > :15:07.When it comes, you have a multilevel operation. There are those who will
:15:08. > :15:13.always insist that human rights must be respected. At the same time,
:15:14. > :15:16.there are those who stand side`by`side with human rights being
:15:17. > :15:22.respect that, not just from one side but both sides, who looked at the
:15:23. > :15:29.security of society. It does not sound very progressive but let us
:15:30. > :15:38.also tackle issues of security. We cannot avoid it. But at the same
:15:39. > :15:43.time, let us make sure we are not accused of the crimes of the other
:15:44. > :15:47.side. But to say that you will avoid human rights abuses 100% in
:15:48. > :15:49.situations like this when human beings are being used as human
:15:50. > :15:55.shields, when children are considered not inviolate but the
:15:56. > :16:02.first primary target for the purposes of ordinary advantage, you
:16:03. > :16:08.cannot be prepared to operate from both sides. And in a situation where
:16:09. > :16:12.you believe there has been political impunity for not the highest
:16:13. > :16:16.standards of public conduct, we have seen calls recently as a result of
:16:17. > :16:20.the government's perceived slow response to the kidnapping for the
:16:21. > :16:27.resignation of the government. Doctor Jonathan should resign. We
:16:28. > :16:31.have no hope. Shame in our country. The best hope is for the government
:16:32. > :16:37.to step down or else it will become a territorial conflict. Do you think
:16:38. > :16:41.the government should go? I have got to be very careful about this. I do
:16:42. > :16:49.not want to be seen as inciting a situation of total social anomie. At
:16:50. > :16:55.the same time, I must express my feeling is that this government has
:16:56. > :16:59.failed a nation. The primary task right now for me is to demonstrate a
:17:00. > :17:06.sense of responsibility to those we bring into the world and those who
:17:07. > :17:10.we send into danger zones. If we fail them, we fail our nation all
:17:11. > :17:16.the way through, we lose all our self`respect. These demonstrations
:17:17. > :17:21.have had... I have had nothing to do with it, but they are even belated
:17:22. > :17:26.and they must continue until these children are brought home. We cannot
:17:27. > :17:29.just say, oh, yes... No, no. Everything in the country must stand
:17:30. > :17:35.still until these children are brought home. One was from an
:17:36. > :17:41.opposition group and the other was from the trades union Congress, both
:17:42. > :17:44.of them in River State, not state directly affected from the current
:17:45. > :17:49.insurgency but a reflection of the political view. Do you share their
:17:50. > :17:53.sentiments? It's a mistake to think... Going back years, it's a
:17:54. > :17:58.mistake to think that what is happening now only affects one
:17:59. > :18:03.section of the nation. There have been cells broken up in the south.
:18:04. > :18:08.We will make a horrible mistake if we think it is confined only to one
:18:09. > :18:12.section. And this has to be emphasised even when talking to
:18:13. > :18:15.security officers. It is only a matter of time before we are
:18:16. > :18:20.overwhelmed in the south. My question was, should the president
:18:21. > :18:25.go? Would that be a way of focusing public attention on a recognition of
:18:26. > :18:29.the problems this state has had in establishing its authority and its
:18:30. > :18:35.failure to deal with a particularly egregious example of that weakness,
:18:36. > :18:39.and an opportunity to start again? If I have a conviction one way or
:18:40. > :18:42.the other, I will be the first person to call the president and
:18:43. > :18:48.tell him that for the sake of the nation, he must sacrifice his
:18:49. > :18:53.ambitions and hand over whatever kind of transitional Finn... I will
:18:54. > :18:58.say that first. Are you at that point? I'm not at that point yet.
:18:59. > :19:02.And certainly I would not be publicly here. I would say to him
:19:03. > :19:07.first. You have written about your childhood in Nigeria, the tiny first
:19:08. > :19:16.experience the fervour of political debate. You became aware of
:19:17. > :19:19.politics, becoming gripped with the excitement of the discussions in the
:19:20. > :19:25.drama all around you, and knowing the forces involved. Do you see any
:19:26. > :19:31.sign of that further in the modern Nigeria or have Nigerians given up
:19:32. > :19:36.on politics? Thank goodness Nigerians have not given up. They
:19:37. > :19:44.would not. Otherwise we would not have these demonstrations going on,
:19:45. > :19:51.discourse in such strident terms. But each society has its own moment
:19:52. > :19:54.of critical mass. Nigeria has finally reached that moment of
:19:55. > :19:58.critical mass. For me, it is very belated. It's not belated, it's
:19:59. > :20:05.late. It should have happened much earlier. The resilience of Nigerian
:20:06. > :20:09.society and the tolerance level is one that surprises many people all
:20:10. > :20:15.over the world. Sometimes, I myself have given up. There is a kind of
:20:16. > :20:20.temperament in Nigeria that waits until the price you pay is much
:20:21. > :20:26.higher than you would have paid if you had started early enough. The
:20:27. > :20:32.amount of energy which is required at certain stages... We could have
:20:33. > :20:36.handled the situation with a fraction of that energy. But
:20:37. > :20:40.sometimes people talk about national character or temperament... I don't
:20:41. > :20:46.know if it's reality or perception. I don't know. One newspaper in
:20:47. > :20:50.Nigeria says the country has become a failed state. Do you use that
:20:51. > :20:54.view? I have use that expression myself full of I must be careful
:20:55. > :21:00.because I don't know what records you have. There are times that I
:21:01. > :21:05.feel Nigeria is a failed state but it is not beyond redemption. What
:21:06. > :21:10.has to change? It has to happen on multiple levels. We have an
:21:11. > :21:18.immediate crisis on our hands and one thing that I don't want is in
:21:19. > :21:21.Nigeria there to be any language of evasion to say that these are
:21:22. > :21:26.long`term causes, yes, we know that, we are not stupid. These are the
:21:27. > :21:33.moves of planning for the future. Yes, all that should be taking place
:21:34. > :21:38.right now. But at this moment, it is not just a symbolic moment. It is
:21:39. > :21:43.the definition. I believe that the Nigerian nation is about to be
:21:44. > :21:49.defined 1`way or the other. If we do not find those children, then for
:21:50. > :21:54.me, Nigeria is a hopeless state. Let's all sit down and decide that
:21:55. > :21:59.Nigeria is too much to manage and that it's easier, for instance, to
:22:00. > :22:06.manage a crisis of this kind or even to prevent it if we were a smaller
:22:07. > :22:13.nation. It's a time to speak very frankly. As its future as a country,
:22:14. > :22:19.it's now the centenary. You saying that it has a future as a single
:22:20. > :22:25.country or is Nigeria's best hope to recognise its differences and to
:22:26. > :22:32.allow it to slowly separate? I would say that we are poised on the edge
:22:33. > :22:37.of the knife. Most nations go through this from time to time. It's
:22:38. > :22:41.not unique to Nigeria. The importance is for Nigerians to
:22:42. > :22:46.recognise this as test, as perhaps the most critical test over and
:22:47. > :22:53.above even the civil war of unity. Unity is just a word. We are talking
:22:54. > :22:58.about the existence of humanity within a nation space. In fact, I
:22:59. > :23:01.hardly use the word nation any more. I prefer the term nation space,
:23:02. > :23:08.especially for artificial spaces like ours. But that space is getting
:23:09. > :23:14.smaller. It is getting smaller, more fragile, more estimable every moment
:23:15. > :23:18.that we live. It is getting more and more questionable. But the
:23:19. > :23:22.conference, I hope, which should have taken place some years before
:23:23. > :23:27.and which we attempted even to install at the risk of being called
:23:28. > :23:34.national traitors, I think that moment is now. A direct question
:23:35. > :23:40.with a simple answer. Do you believe in your heart that Nigeria was to
:23:41. > :23:46.exist 100 years from now as it has existed in the last 100 years? The
:23:47. > :23:55.structure of Nigeria may change drastically emanating from that
:23:56. > :24:00.conference or we will say that the British did a number on us and we
:24:01. > :24:36.have not been able to get over it. Thank you.
:24:37. > :24:44.In general, blustery showers on Friday but equally, some spells of
:24:45. > :24:45.sunshine. We begin on a reasonably mild note with low pressure