:00:00. > :00:08.Carrick, who tweeted his disappointment. You are up`to`date.
:00:09. > :00:18.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk.
:00:19. > :00:22.Today, in the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa, for an exclusive
:00:23. > :00:27.interview with Riek Machar. A former vice president of South Sudan, who
:00:28. > :00:33.led an armed rebellion against the President Salva Kiir, which has
:00:34. > :00:38.plunged his country into a bitter civil war. Just days ago, Riek
:00:39. > :00:43.Machar and Salva Kiir met here in Addis Ababa, and signed a ceasefire
:00:44. > :00:51.agreement. But already, the deal is looking shaky. So why are did Riek
:00:52. > :00:57.Machar take up arms `` why did Riek Machar take up arms and teach his
:00:58. > :01:20.country into a humanitarian crisis `` pitch his country.
:01:21. > :01:28.Riek Machar are not welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Let us start
:01:29. > :01:33.with the state of the ceasefire agreement which you signed with
:01:34. > :01:39.President Salva Kiir just a couple of days ago. Already, that ceasefire
:01:40. > :01:47.looks extremely fragile. What is your assessment? Well, I think it is
:01:48. > :02:07.fragile. We have been attacked in five locations. We have also been
:02:08. > :02:12.attacked in several other locations. You have been attacked, Tuesday. And
:02:13. > :02:16.I have just seen a statement from the South Sudan government saying
:02:17. > :02:27.that your rebel forces have been on the offensive and have been
:02:28. > :02:32.responsible for multiple breaches of the ceasefire. I hope you have
:02:33. > :02:39.looked at maps. The locations the government was controlling before
:02:40. > :02:43.the signature of the agreement. You will find that the government has
:02:44. > :02:54.been on the offensive all these months, since January 23rd. You talk
:02:55. > :02:58.about January 23, of course, that is when the first cessation of
:02:59. > :03:04.hostilities agreement was signed. Agreed upon. And it did not last.
:03:05. > :03:08.Why should the outside world, and more importantly, the people of
:03:09. > :03:12.South Sudan, have any confidence that this ceasefire agreement is any
:03:13. > :03:22.more meaningful than the last one? Well, on our side, we are committed
:03:23. > :03:27.to the ceasefire. Actually, a cessation of hostilities agreement.
:03:28. > :03:32.So to be clear, you have alleged to me that Salva Kiir's government
:03:33. > :03:40.forces are attacking you. Does that mean your forces are not responding?
:03:41. > :03:45.No, we respond in self defence. In defence, we respond. So the war goes
:03:46. > :03:49.on? Let me tell you the difficulties. In the implementation
:03:50. > :03:58.of the cessation of hostilities. There are forces that I believe are
:03:59. > :04:04.not under control of Salva Kiir. The government forces are involved in
:04:05. > :04:15.the fight. The Sudanese rebels actually four groups, the Justice
:04:16. > :04:23.and equality movement, the Sudan liberation Army, two factions, and a
:04:24. > :04:28.group in the north, are involved in the fighting. Hang on, this is
:04:29. > :04:31.important. You suggesting to me that right now foreign fighters are
:04:32. > :04:35.refusing to acknowledge the cessation of hostilities agreement
:04:36. > :04:40.that you signed with Salva Kiir. I have not seen any acknowledgement
:04:41. > :04:53.from these parties, these forces. The Justice and equality movement is
:04:54. > :05:03.the one that attacked in a state Brunt several areas. `` attacked in
:05:04. > :05:06.several areas. In the north, the forced the government. You are
:05:07. > :05:11.suggesting to me that Salva Kiir is not in full control of the forces
:05:12. > :05:17.fighting in his name. He of course says that you are not in full
:05:18. > :05:20.control of the forces fighting in your name. I control the forces that
:05:21. > :05:25.are fighting in my name. All of are fighting in my name. All of
:05:26. > :05:29.them? All of them. All of them. And that has been true throughout the
:05:30. > :05:33.conflict. Is Salva Kiir the commander in Chief of the government
:05:34. > :05:39.forces? Is the? Has he withdrawn them? Because some are not accepting
:05:40. > :05:48.the cessation of hostilities. The other forces have not drawn from
:05:49. > :05:53.South Sudan. So the important point you have just made. You insist you
:05:54. > :05:56.have been in full control of all the fighters fighting in your name since
:05:57. > :06:02.the beginning of this conflict last December. Yes? Since we organised
:06:03. > :06:10.ourselves. By the way, the fighting started as a resistance. We did not
:06:11. > :06:15.plan a rebellion. We were forced to resist the onslaught of the
:06:16. > :06:21.government. Believe me, Riek Machar, we will get to that. It is that is
:06:22. > :06:26.an important part of this story. I want to focus on the here and now.
:06:27. > :06:31.There are millions of South Sudanese right now who faced the very real
:06:32. > :06:36.threat of humanitarian catastrophe. They are not getting humanitarian
:06:37. > :06:41.aid supplies through many of them, close to starvation. The UN says
:06:42. > :06:46.that 5 million people need emergency assistance right now. Are your
:06:47. > :06:53.forces prepared to give free passage, safe passage, to all
:06:54. > :07:02.humanitarian relief work, workers, in the areas you control right now?
:07:03. > :07:14.We have been doing that. Example. The UN mission in South Sudan,
:07:15. > :07:19.requested our assistance in giving passage for its members. We did give
:07:20. > :07:29.that. But the government forces shot at them. And it is the government
:07:30. > :07:33.that is obstructing the access to humanitarian relief in the areas we
:07:34. > :07:43.control. So we have been called parading. In the relief agencies and
:07:44. > :07:48.UN agencies. In the course of the first five minutes of this interview
:07:49. > :07:51.you have managed to make a series of very serious allegations against
:07:52. > :07:55.Salva Kiir and his forces. I am beginning to wonder why on earth I
:07:56. > :07:59.should take seriously that moment just a couple of days ago when you
:08:00. > :08:02.and he sat together, signed a document together, and said you
:08:03. > :08:08.would co`operate together to seek a peaceful political solution to South
:08:09. > :08:15.Sudan's problems. You clearly do not trust him an inch. In my remarks
:08:16. > :08:23.during the signing of the agreement, which is a roadmap for
:08:24. > :08:30.peace talks in Addis Ababa. I twice stated that we are committed to this
:08:31. > :08:38.roadmap. We are committed to support our team, and to support the
:08:39. > :08:44.initiative of mediation. Do you trust Salva Kiir? When... I do not
:08:45. > :08:50.necessarily have to trust him. People who fight each other do not
:08:51. > :08:58.necessarily trust each other until the resolution of the conflict is
:08:59. > :09:03.done. That would be no, would it? I just... If you do not trust Salva
:09:04. > :09:05.Kiir, why would you trust that he has any intention of ending his
:09:06. > :09:11.military operations against your forces? And why would you trust in
:09:12. > :09:22.his integrity in any future political process? I don't want to
:09:23. > :09:28.speak against him. Forgive me, you have been very judgemental on him.
:09:29. > :09:30.You have called him a man who is showing dictatorial tendencies, who
:09:31. > :09:36.is killing people like flies, who is trying to incite ethnic violence.
:09:37. > :09:42.These are all words... He did all those. Yes Tomic he did those. Those
:09:43. > :09:48.are facts. So the agreement that you've signed with him is not worth
:09:49. > :09:52.the paper it is written on. If you believe this is the man who is a
:09:53. > :09:55.dictator who kills people like flies, insights violence, why on
:09:56. > :10:00.earth have you signed an agreement with him? Because we want to find a
:10:01. > :10:04.solution to the conflict. The solution will not be military. It
:10:05. > :10:08.will have to be a political settlement. Negotiated. So you are
:10:09. > :10:16.prepared to still work with this man, Salva Kiir, as president of
:10:17. > :10:21.South Sudan. We will negotiate. Well that is not a negotiating point, is
:10:22. > :10:26.it? Salva Kiir is the president of South Sudan. I just want to know...
:10:27. > :10:33.For the time being he is. But for us he is an illegitimate president who
:10:34. > :10:42.has massacred communities, targeted communities, and killed or
:10:43. > :10:47.supervised killing of 20,000 South Sudanese in the capital. You don't
:10:48. > :10:51.sound like a man who has just signed a ceasefire agreement and is working
:10:52. > :10:56.future. You sound like a man who is future. You sound like a man who is
:10:57. > :11:03.still committed to rebellion, to your armed rebellion. first, I am
:11:04. > :11:10.not a rebel. I am committed to the agreement I signed. But these are
:11:11. > :11:15.facts. They are not deniable. They are truths. If I don't say them, I
:11:16. > :11:20.went the truthful. But surely the key fact, and this is where we do
:11:21. > :11:24.need to go back a little bit into the history of this crisis, the key
:11:25. > :11:30.fact is that you chose to Rabaul. You say you are not a rebel, but let
:11:31. > :11:33.me quote you the words of John Kerry, the US Secretary of State,
:11:34. > :11:37.who was here trying to supervise the end of hostilities, and the
:11:38. > :11:40.political process just a few days ago. You said the current president
:11:41. > :11:45.of South Sudan is the elected constitutional president of his
:11:46. > :11:49.nation. Riek Machar is a rebel, who is unconstitutionally trying to take
:11:50. > :11:55.power by force, and there is, says Mr Kerry, no equivalents between the
:11:56. > :12:10.two man. I have heard his statement. Let me talk about what happened in
:12:11. > :12:18.the process. First, there was no coup. You are talking about last
:12:19. > :12:22.December, when elements of the National Guard turned their guns
:12:23. > :12:31.against each other. Was that incident, Salva Kiir immediately
:12:32. > :12:37.tried to arrest members of many groups. He failed to arrest me. I
:12:38. > :12:43.slipped away. You slipped away because you obviously were aware
:12:44. > :12:51.that there was going to be a move against the president. That is why
:12:52. > :12:56.he called it a coup. No. The court has dismissed his case. He has
:12:57. > :13:02.released the people. He has withdrawn his case. Where is the
:13:03. > :13:08.coup? All people know there was no coup. All he wanted to do was
:13:09. > :13:14.murder. The leadership that had told him on the 6th of December that
:13:15. > :13:19.things were wrong. The way he was running the country. Are you
:13:20. > :13:34.suggesting to me... There was no rebellion. There has been resistance
:13:35. > :13:36.happening against his regime. Let's talk about your responsibilities. I
:13:37. > :13:39.made a point of establishing whether you believe you can be held
:13:40. > :13:44.responsible for all of the actions of the men fighting in your name
:13:45. > :13:52.over the past, almost five months. You said to me, yes, I can. So, are
:13:53. > :13:57.you prepared to take responsibility for perhaps the single worst
:13:58. > :14:05.atrocity during the conflict? Your forces going into the town of Bentiu
:14:06. > :14:15.on April 15 and, according to reports, being responsible for the
:14:16. > :14:24.massacre of hundreds of civilians. I have heard of the incident. We have
:14:25. > :14:31.discussed it. We have decided to investigate it because it is also
:14:32. > :14:41.disputable. But all in all, we say we must investigate it.
:14:42. > :14:48.Investigate, you say. We are talking about April 15. One month later, you
:14:49. > :14:52.must have read the UN and Amnesty International report based on
:14:53. > :14:59.interviews with a multitude of people who catalogue how armed men,
:15:00. > :15:05.went into a Catholic Church, went into a mosque, went into a hospital
:15:06. > :15:10.and killed civilians having established their ethnic identities.
:15:11. > :15:17.This investigation of yours, you must know whether that is true. I do
:15:18. > :15:27.not know if it is true because there can be also other facts besides
:15:28. > :15:31.this. The real issue is your ultimate responsibility. What John
:15:32. > :15:38.Kerry has said that what he has heard from Bentiu and indeed some
:15:39. > :15:41.other places as well, very disturbing indicators that raise a
:15:42. > :15:50.serious challenge for the international community with respect
:15:51. > :15:57.to the question of genocide. I had a discussion with your colleague, I
:15:58. > :16:07.told him I actually that something that I myself would not accept has
:16:08. > :16:19.happened in NTU. But why are you only talking about Bentiu. Why are
:16:20. > :16:25.you not talking about what happened in Dubai with Salva Kiir. When
:16:26. > :16:30.20,000 people, one ethnic group were killed, massacred. Buried in mass
:16:31. > :16:36.graves. Why are you not talking about that? You just talked about
:16:37. > :16:46.the ethnic killing of 20,000 in Juba, do you ever let that you have
:16:47. > :16:52.an extraordinary personal responsibility to avoid South Sudan
:16:53. > :16:58.slipping into ethnic hate and killing that the world, of course,
:16:59. > :17:05.remembers so well from Rwanda, for examples. Definitely, I do have a
:17:06. > :17:13.responsibility. That is why I am raising this issue. Why is the world
:17:14. > :17:19.are quizzing two accepting a president who has murdered sections
:17:20. > :17:24.of his community? Are you saying to me that you will never accept Salva
:17:25. > :17:29.Kiir as legitimate president of South Sudan? He has lost his
:17:30. > :17:33.legitimacy. I was his running mate in that election which you are
:17:34. > :17:39.quoting. I was his running mate. Probably, I did more to ensure he
:17:40. > :17:47.got elected. If he turns against his own population, why would he
:17:48. > :17:52.become... Why would he still retain legitimacy? On what basis? He is
:17:53. > :18:01.destroying South Sudan, he is dividing South Sudan. He is
:18:02. > :18:09.discrediting the whole nation. And becoming more convinced as this
:18:10. > :18:14.proceeds that the agreement you side with this man who you have
:18:15. > :18:20.characterised in this weight is meaningless. It is not meaningless.
:18:21. > :18:30.Still, we can... You do not even recognise his legitimacy. I do not
:18:31. > :18:37.have to. We will negotiate with him for the state of people of South
:18:38. > :18:40.Sudan. We will negotiate and reach eight political settlement. I am
:18:41. > :18:47.interested in a political settlement. I and not interested in
:18:48. > :18:53.eight military solution. White but it includes him remaining president
:18:54. > :19:00.of South Sudan. That is a different issue. Did not, when you are
:19:01. > :19:10.actually in the same room as Salva Kiir? I heard him say that he is the
:19:11. > :19:16.president. It was not an issue to me. The issue to me is resolve the
:19:17. > :19:25.conflict, vertically, peacefully so that South Sudan Canon the peaceful
:19:26. > :19:30.again. Let's talk about your own political ambitions. You have said
:19:31. > :19:34.that Salva Kiir in your view is, and it seems it will remain,
:19:35. > :19:40.illegitimate. There were supposed to be a roadmap process to establish a
:19:41. > :19:45.new future for South Sudan. Frankly, it is hard to see how it will work
:19:46. > :19:51.even your characterisation of Salva Kiir. Is it your intention to push
:19:52. > :19:59.for a return to your old job as vice resident? What do you want? I have
:20:00. > :20:08.served as vice president. I did what I could do as vice president and I
:20:09. > :20:15.was satisfied. What do you want from this transitional process? I want a
:20:16. > :20:22.peaceful solution. First we have to arrive at a peaceful solution. The
:20:23. > :20:26.guns asked the silent, the transitional government
:20:27. > :20:34.re`established and we go for elections. As we end this
:20:35. > :20:39.interview, let's reflect on what has happened to South Sudan, Africa's
:20:40. > :20:45.newest nation. Only three years old as a nation. All of those high hopes
:20:46. > :20:52.for Independent have been smashed. We now talk about millions of your
:20:53. > :20:56.people facing the threat, the possibility of starvation if they
:20:57. > :21:01.cannot plant their crops this year, if they do not get emergency food
:21:02. > :21:07.supplies they are in the deepest of trouble. Do you accept some
:21:08. > :21:20.responsibility for what has happened to your country? Look go back to the
:21:21. > :21:29.cause of the problem. I did not cause the problem. I did not make a
:21:30. > :21:35.coup, I did not start a rebellion. There was an uprising because of the
:21:36. > :21:46.incident that happened. It is unfortunate that we have this
:21:47. > :21:49.situation. Unfortunate? Is that the best word you can find? I am struck
:21:50. > :21:58.by something you said a few years ago. Going back 23 years, you, at
:21:59. > :22:05.the time, work away from the SPL and and there were violent clashes in
:22:06. > :22:09.southern Sudan and your forces were accused of responsibility for
:22:10. > :22:17.killing hundreds of Dinka people in poor. Many years afterwards, you
:22:18. > :22:24.chose to say sorry. Sorry for your rake away from the SPLN. You said
:22:25. > :22:29.giving an apology is the best way to bring peace and we do not want to
:22:30. > :22:34.pass these painful things onto our children. We want them to live a
:22:35. > :22:37.peaceful, democratic South Sudan. If you thought it was important to say
:22:38. > :22:43.sorry over what happened back in 1991, widely not say sorry now for
:22:44. > :22:55.what has happened in the last six months? I am the victim. To whom am
:22:56. > :23:01.I going to apologise? I am the victim. You might want to apologise
:23:02. > :23:08.to the people. 11 a half million people of your country. I am being
:23:09. > :23:17.victimised. If we are honest, it seems there is almost no hope of
:23:18. > :23:21.this so`called peace agreement, cessation of hostilities actually
:23:22. > :23:36.working. It seems like the wall will go on. I am confident South Sudan
:23:37. > :23:39.will reach peace. We have gone through difficult periods before
:23:40. > :23:48.this. We are now going through it and we will get peace. Maybe,
:23:49. > :23:56.cessation of hostilities. We will get peace. We have to and there but
:23:57. > :24:18.I thank you very much. Thank you very much.
:24:19. > :24:26.If you have had enough of sunshine and showers, one more day to go and
:24:27. > :24:32.then the weather story will change somewhat. We have a queue showers
:24:33. > :24:34.around at the moment, combining into lines of showery rain across