:00:00. > :00:14.weeks ago. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk. Zimbabwe's fortunes have for three decades been
:00:18. > :00:23.tied to one man, President Robert Mugabe. Now once again, Zimbabwe is
:00:24. > :00:29.staring economic catastrophe in the face less than a week after the
:00:30. > :00:34.ruling party won another term in power. Potential investors are being
:00:35. > :00:39.scared away by seizures of land and foreign`owned assets. Late yesterday
:00:40. > :00:46.is Supa Mandiwanzira, the deputy information minister. `` my guest
:00:47. > :00:50.today. How does he stand being part of the government accused of
:00:51. > :01:15.cronyism and impoverishing the many? Supa Mandiwanzira, welcome to
:01:16. > :01:20.HARDtalk. Robert Mugabe is 90. Shouldn't Zimbabwe be run by a
:01:21. > :01:25.younger President? Thank you for inviting me to HARDtalk. That is a
:01:26. > :01:29.question that you must put to the people of Zimbabwe. That question
:01:30. > :01:37.was put to the people of Zimbabwe on the 31st of July 2013 and they
:01:38. > :01:41.overwhelmingly voted for President Robert Mugabe. The next in line with
:01:42. > :01:48.the opposition leader with just under 34%. The people chose Robert
:01:49. > :01:52.Mugabe despite his age. They believe in him, they believe in his wisdom,
:01:53. > :01:56.they believe in his leadership qualities. That is why he is our
:01:57. > :02:03.president today. Did you read the elections? The elections were
:02:04. > :02:07.declared free and the will of the Zimbabwe people buy all of those who
:02:08. > :02:16.observed the elections. These include the African union, the ACP
:02:17. > :02:21.and messages of congratulations from the UN Secretary General. All of
:02:22. > :02:26.them recognise that the elections were free and a reflection of what
:02:27. > :02:35.the voters wanted. In any election... Can I just say, it was
:02:36. > :02:38.not such a clean bill of health. There was generally a peaceful
:02:39. > :02:43.manner in the way the elections were conducted. But it was said that they
:02:44. > :02:49.were some weaknesses that call into doubt the credibility of the
:02:50. > :02:56.elections. The US were also very unhappy. The Treasury officials put
:02:57. > :03:01.your man in charge overseeing the elections on a sanctions list. It
:03:02. > :03:10.was not a clean bill of health that he seemed to indicate. It explains
:03:11. > :03:13.why the EU has sanctions on Zimbabwe and the United States have sanctions
:03:14. > :03:19.on Zimbabwe. They have existed for many years. The EU and United States
:03:20. > :03:28.have been opposed to the leadership of President Robert Mugabe and Zaru
:03:29. > :03:34.PF. The biggest room in the world is there room for improvement. But in
:03:35. > :03:42.terms of the guidelines, our elections were free and a reflection
:03:43. > :03:45.of the will of the people. There could have been incidents in which
:03:46. > :03:50.things did not go according to plan, but that happens with any election.
:03:51. > :03:55.I am in South Africa and I have heard similar noises from the
:03:56. > :03:58.opposition. Any election in the world is not perfect, including
:03:59. > :04:07.elections in the UK and United States. It is more than that. That's
:04:08. > :04:18.me give you the words of the Ambassador Hu was in Zimbabwe under
:04:19. > :04:22.Bill Clinton. `` the Ambassador Hu. He says it is tragic and indeed sad
:04:23. > :04:32.that Robert Mugabe Bridge at the last election so Robert Mugabe could
:04:33. > :04:36.win. That is a considered judgement from somebody who keeps in touch
:04:37. > :04:42.with Zimbabwe. He loves the country. That is what he told us. That is
:04:43. > :04:46.somebody who keeps in touch with Zimbabwe by phone, by newspaper
:04:47. > :04:51.articles, by watching international television. The people on the ground
:04:52. > :04:59.monitoring the elections, observing the elections, gave these elections
:05:00. > :05:06.take clean bill of health. The Zimbabwe elections brought into
:05:07. > :05:09.power a government that has an overwhelming majority, more than two
:05:10. > :05:16.thirds majority in the house of assembly, almost 62% for the
:05:17. > :05:27.President. That is not ready to. Let me just finished. Those that say
:05:28. > :05:33.these elections were rigged can do so, but they must produce the
:05:34. > :05:38.evidence. It gave the example of South Africa and said the elections
:05:39. > :05:41.are not perfect. The Independent electoral commission has said that
:05:42. > :05:47.the elections were fine, were as your support network said there was
:05:48. > :05:53.a systematic effort to disenfranchise an estimated 1
:05:54. > :05:55.million voters. The Southern African development Corporation has also
:05:56. > :06:03.expressed concerns. Be that as it may, I ask you whether President
:06:04. > :06:09.Mugabe is too old. Are you suggesting that he has the energy
:06:10. > :06:12.required to run a country and bring it through this difficult economic
:06:13. > :06:17.time? Let me point out that the electoral support network is an NGO
:06:18. > :06:23.funded by governments in Europe and the United States. It cannot be the
:06:24. > :06:28.authority of Zimbabwe elections. It is something that we have always
:06:29. > :06:31.highlighted. We have institutions built to undermine the credibility
:06:32. > :06:39.of the Zimbabwe government of resident Robert Mugabe. Does the
:06:40. > :06:50.vigour and energy to run the government? He has. That is why he
:06:51. > :06:55.was voted in. He has a cabinet and deputy ministers. We have a vibrant
:06:56. > :06:58.parliament and vibrant judiciary system. I am part of a new
:06:59. > :07:03.generation of young leaders joining party and joining government in
:07:04. > :07:06.order to carry on the legacy of people like President Mugabe who
:07:07. > :07:14.brought us Independence and democracy and human rights. The
:07:15. > :07:17.Economist citing a former official inside Zimbabwe said everything
:07:18. > :07:22.centres on Mugabe and that is where the problem lies. Cabinet does not
:07:23. > :07:28.meet and ministers take advantage of this. We know that Mugabe goes off
:07:29. > :07:37.to Singapore at regular intervals for health checkups. When he is not
:07:38. > :07:41.there, that is what goes on. When President Mugabe is out of the
:07:42. > :07:45.country, the vice president is the acting president and is always the
:07:46. > :07:52.acting president. Government functions and runs very well in the
:07:53. > :07:58.absence of President Mugabe. There is no issue of him going for medical
:07:59. > :08:05.checkups. He is 90 years old. He is operating at full capacity. His
:08:06. > :08:11.intellect is unbelievable. His energy is unbelievable. His wisdom
:08:12. > :08:16.is God`given. Let us look at the economy. There are real concerns
:08:17. > :08:21.about a new economic catastrophe in Zimbabwe. You have got 62% of the 30
:08:22. > :08:33.million population living in poverty. `` 13 million. The world
:08:34. > :08:35.food programme says it is as high as 60% unemployed or underemployed. You
:08:36. > :08:43.have got life expectancy dropped in the years that Mugabe has been
:08:44. > :08:53.president dropped to 58. What are you doing about this? It is not true
:08:54. > :08:58.that the life expectancy has dropped. It has been going up. At
:08:59. > :09:07.one point it was 34 years, now it is 58. It is going up. It was 61 in
:09:08. > :09:13.1985. Carry on. And it went down and it is now coming back up. We must
:09:14. > :09:18.recognise that. What are we doing about the economy? We are doing a
:09:19. > :09:25.lot of things. Within 90 days of the government being sworn in, the
:09:26. > :09:28.government came up with an economic programme which we are calling the
:09:29. > :09:35.Zimbabwe agenda for sustainable economic transformation. It is aimed
:09:36. > :09:41.at utilising the country's resources to grow the economy and improve the
:09:42. > :09:51.livelihoods of our people. This programme is already working. It is
:09:52. > :09:55.not. Your new reserve bank governor says the bank has no tools to
:09:56. > :10:02.influence the economy. You have got no money in state coffers. We have
:10:03. > :10:05.no money in state coffers, that is a fact. But let me go back to my
:10:06. > :10:14.point. You say that it is not working. One of the clusters is food
:10:15. > :10:21.security and nutrition. As part of the programme, government made
:10:22. > :10:26.available $188 million in fertilisers and seed which it gave
:10:27. > :10:33.to farmers. They have produced more food is as than was produced last
:10:34. > :10:41.year. Conservative estimates say we will produce 1.1 million tons of
:10:42. > :10:53.maize. More estimates are saying that we could reduce between 1.6`
:10:54. > :10:56.1.8 million tons. `` produce. You just said that there is no money in
:10:57. > :11:04.state coffers. Why did Robert Mugabe promised to double the salaries of
:11:05. > :11:10.200 civil servants? Is that the rate promise he should have made in the
:11:11. > :11:14.circumstances? It is important that we address the expectations of our
:11:15. > :11:20.people and the civil service. That is not the expectations of the
:11:21. > :11:28.people. That is not the expectations of the people. 200,000 civil
:11:29. > :11:34.servants are people. They are Zimbabweans. If we want a functional
:11:35. > :11:38.government that is efficient, we must pay people working in
:11:39. > :11:42.government well. If we do not pay them well, the government system
:11:43. > :11:47.will not operate well. It is a basic rule. You must pay those you expect
:11:48. > :11:54.to deliver public services well. We are not preparing our civil service.
:11:55. > :12:00.They have been getting a minimum wage. You need $500 for an average
:12:01. > :12:07.household in Zimbabwe to survive. The President has said we should use
:12:08. > :12:12.our natural resources to create value to pay our people. We are
:12:13. > :12:16.producing significant amount of diamonds, the largest producer of
:12:17. > :12:25.diamonds in terms of quantity. Those diamonds, the value must go to pay
:12:26. > :12:31.our civil servants. The point is this that is being made. As the IMF
:12:32. > :12:38.has said looking at Zimbabwe, you have got to use more of your money
:12:39. > :12:46.on non` personal spending. You have got 350 members of Parliament. You
:12:47. > :12:54.have got more than 60 ministers, either cabinet ministers or deputies
:12:55. > :12:59.like you. Your car bill is $20 million. The MPs are waiting for
:13:00. > :13:05.their cars. You're losing a large bit of your depleted resources on
:13:06. > :13:16.servicing this political and official leak. `` elite. We have
:13:17. > :13:19.responsibilities as a government and the country. Those tasked with
:13:20. > :13:27.ensuring that we will turn around the economy and passed with ensuring
:13:28. > :13:31.that our country comes out of its difficulties must be rewarded to be
:13:32. > :13:34.able to do that work. It is a simple principle. If you want to get the
:13:35. > :13:49.best out of your people, pay them. Can I put towards you what the civil
:13:50. > :13:53.society coalition says? He says that these variably turn out to be bad,
:13:54. > :14:03.bad economic policies and are beneficial to the political elite.
:14:04. > :14:09.He is from the crisis coalition. It is one of those NGOs that are funded
:14:10. > :14:16.by agents of regime change, countries that are working with NGOs
:14:17. > :14:19.like the crisis coalition and the media to ensure that there is a
:14:20. > :14:30.regime change. We do not take them seriously. Look at the figures.
:14:31. > :14:44.Let's take a look at your land appropriations. Or,000 white farmers
:14:45. > :15:00.have been put in the hands `` 40,000, have been put in the hands
:15:01. > :15:05.of 4000 farmers. `` Farms. That is absolutely not true. It is not
:15:06. > :15:10.appropriations. It was done by the colonizers of Zimbabwe and we have
:15:11. > :15:16.addressed the situation with the land reform programme in which we
:15:17. > :15:24.have resettled 300,000 families. The land that was taken over was used by
:15:25. > :15:29.or,000 white commercial farmers. The land was skewed and it was difficult
:15:30. > :15:35.to maintain the situation. We are glad. . Is not the criticism. It is
:15:36. > :15:47.not the policy but the way it was implemented as the leader of the War
:15:48. > :15:51.Federation said, he said that everyone should get equal pieces of
:15:52. > :15:55.land and that it becomes a logical for a single individual to own large
:15:56. > :16:03.amounts of land and that is what we are seeing. Your former justice
:16:04. > :16:14.minister acquired land from a white farmer, Richard Yates, who now lives
:16:15. > :16:24.in Australia, and that is one example of a minister acquiring a
:16:25. > :16:29.large bit of land. He was the country's Finance Minister and had
:16:30. > :16:35.been on this programme. He explained why he had that land on this
:16:36. > :16:39.programme. I do get is wrong to assume that if you are a
:16:40. > :16:43.politician, you should not benefit from government programmes that are
:16:44. > :16:48.done transparently. The reason you go about this is because it is
:16:49. > :16:56.public information. That is the point I was making. You just said
:16:57. > :17:00.there are 60 government ministers. How many people are benefiting from
:17:01. > :17:08.these programmes? 90,000 families impaired to the few government
:17:09. > :17:14.workers. Now it is more about the transfer of land from one elite to
:17:15. > :17:24.another and that they are getting the lion's share. You need to go to
:17:25. > :17:29.the tobacco auction floors and see the level of interaction going on
:17:30. > :17:41.there. It will dismiss all of the things you are talking about. It is
:17:42. > :17:52.not my criticism. It is from fellow Zimbabweans. He is a political
:17:53. > :17:57.player. He has a legitimate point of view. He has a vested interest as a
:17:58. > :18:08.political player. You are shooting the messenger and not addressing the
:18:09. > :18:13.message. A key Zanu PF policy is to ensure that 51% of public policies
:18:14. > :18:18.and other businesses should be owned in Zimbabwe. At a time when you need
:18:19. > :18:30.to attract foreign investment into your country, you are scaring off
:18:31. > :18:34.investors with this programme. I cannot let you get away with the
:18:35. > :18:40.message you say that I am shooting the messenger instead of addressing
:18:41. > :18:45.the message. So much information that is out there about Zimbabwe is
:18:46. > :18:56.put there by people who have an agenda against our country. You
:18:57. > :19:06.based most of your reporting and this interview on the people who can
:19:07. > :19:22.never give you an objective position. Are you saying... I have
:19:23. > :19:26.told you what others have said. That many are now critical of party
:19:27. > :19:35.leaders who on several farms each and two are starting `` who are
:19:36. > :19:42.starting to appropriate land from black landowners. It is true that
:19:43. > :19:47.some ministers are taking advantage of but we have a plan in place so
:19:48. > :19:53.that those people will not become dispossessed. Many from
:19:54. > :19:57.international areas are applying for land it now and we are going to make
:19:58. > :20:01.sure that they will get the land that has been repossessed from those
:20:02. > :20:22.who have acquired it by corrupt means. In digitisation is of major
:20:23. > :20:27.concern to many investors `` in `` indigenisation. We have allowed our
:20:28. > :20:34.detractors to explain what it is and as a result of the message has been
:20:35. > :20:41.misinterpreted. What we are saying in terms of indigenisation is that
:20:42. > :20:44.Zimbabwean resources must benefit international investors as well as
:20:45. > :20:52.local people. It is unsustainable to have a situation where foreign
:20:53. > :20:57.capital is coming into the country and are reaping the benefits because
:20:58. > :21:04.they brought in the resources and capital. Partnerships need to be for
:21:05. > :21:09.sustainability and that is what indigenisation is about. It is not
:21:10. > :21:17.about dispossessing. We have no intentions of dispossessing any
:21:18. > :21:23.investor and our president has made this argument on many occasions.
:21:24. > :21:38.Most recently at the commemoration of investing busier. `` based year.
:21:39. > :21:43.Zimbabwe is described as a beggar that can no longer call the shots,
:21:44. > :21:49.so is it not time to ditch that policy if it is staring off
:21:50. > :21:54.investors? It has not been explained. Thank you for this
:21:55. > :21:58.opportunity to explain it. We are seeing this policy working as
:21:59. > :22:03.investors are coming into Zimbabwe and working with locals. If anyone
:22:04. > :22:09.wants to come and invest in Zimbabwe by bringing in capital and raw
:22:10. > :22:16.material and creating employment, we have no say in that. You are not
:22:17. > :22:28.doing well in getting that message across. The Finance Minister has not
:22:29. > :22:35.been getting the money that he had hoped. You are seen as a risk. You
:22:36. > :22:39.have high debt and a poor credit rating. He has said that he doesn't
:22:40. > :22:56.know what to do and has even been briefing the security forces. You
:22:57. > :23:02.are in a state. You mentioned China. Between 2011 and 2013 we were the
:23:03. > :23:09.number one country in Africa to attract Chinese investors. We became
:23:10. > :23:14.number one. We are attracting investment and people are listening
:23:15. > :23:22.to our message. It is a process. You cannot get these results overnight.
:23:23. > :23:26.There have been 14 years of misinformation and you cannot deal
:23:27. > :23:30.with that overnight or in one interview. You have to continuously
:23:31. > :23:35.engage potential partners and that is what he is doing and what I am
:23:36. > :23:38.doing on your show. Very quickly. You cannot implement any of the
:23:39. > :23:48.policies you want to help the poor if you do not have any money.
:23:49. > :23:52.Indeed, we can't. This is why we are saying that Zimbabwe is open for
:23:53. > :24:09.business, come in best in our country and we are beginning to see
:24:10. > :24:14.results. `` come in thank you very much for coming on to the show from
:24:15. > :24:41.Johannesburg, Supa Mandiwanzira. Plenty of showers today across the
:24:42. > :24:43.eastern side of the British Isles. Temperatures got up to 19