:00:00. > :00:00.two months ago. That is it. Now it is time for
:00:00. > :00:31.HARDtalk. Welcome to a special edition of
:00:32. > :00:33.HARDtalk from South Sudan. In an exclusive interview today at my desk
:00:34. > :00:36.is president Salva Kiir of South Sudan whose country is currently
:00:37. > :00:42.locked in a brutal civil conflict that has killed thousands. `` my
:00:43. > :00:47.guest. More than a million are homeless. A fragile ceasefire has
:00:48. > :01:03.been established but can it hold this country back from the brink?
:01:04. > :01:06.Welcome. Pretty much three years ago, you became the president of a
:01:07. > :01:09.new independent nation, South Sudan, yet today, here we sit and your
:01:10. > :01:22.nation seems to be tearing itself apart. Why? After the independence,
:01:23. > :01:31.we thought that we had a task to deliver services to people. But some
:01:32. > :01:42.of my colleagues were impatient and could not wait according to what we
:01:43. > :01:53.had to do. To what we had put down in the Constitution. This is tearing
:01:54. > :01:59.our country into pieces now. You blame the impatience of colleagues.
:02:00. > :02:06.You accept responsibility yourself for what is happening to South Sudan
:02:07. > :02:09.today? What has happened, I can accept but I cannot accept the
:02:10. > :02:27.mistakes of others especially after the 15th of December 2013. That was
:02:28. > :02:31.uncalled for. Explain to me what you mean by uncalled for. There was no
:02:32. > :02:43.reason for leaving peaceful talks. To wage war against a nation. This
:02:44. > :02:45.is the crux of what has become the conflict. Riek Machar, who was your
:02:46. > :02:48.vice president until you sacked him in the summer of 2013, claims that
:02:49. > :02:51.in December of 2013, your presidential guard moved against
:02:52. > :02:54.Nuer people inside that unit and that that was the beginning of what
:02:55. > :03:16.became a conflict instigated, he says, by you. He was lying. I don't
:03:17. > :03:19.think that I can do that. The presidential guard unit, even now,
:03:20. > :03:36.has no reason to move against any Nuer soldier. The second in command
:03:37. > :03:42.of that division is a Nuer. He is still with us today. So, if there
:03:43. > :03:55.was any intention of killing any Nuer, why was he left untouched? I
:03:56. > :03:58.want to get into the tribal ethnic concerns of the conflict today but
:03:59. > :04:06.before I do, I must push you further on your relationship with Riek
:04:07. > :04:14.Machar. He now is leading an armed rebellion inside the country. The
:04:15. > :04:19.country is, in effect, in a state of civil war. You met with him just a
:04:20. > :04:22.few days ago and signed a cessation of hostilities agreement and laid
:04:23. > :04:26.out a process to work together on a new logical roadmap but it sounds to
:04:27. > :04:41.me like he does not trust you and you do not trust him. As long as we
:04:42. > :04:52.agree on one thing, I can trust him, if he was sincere to his words, I
:04:53. > :04:55.can trust him. But if somebody is not sincere, it is very difficult,
:04:56. > :05:01.even you yourself, to trust that person. We signed a cessation to
:05:02. > :05:15.hostilities on the ninth of this month and on the 11th, he violated
:05:16. > :05:24.it, attacking our forces. You think he is actually instructing his
:05:25. > :05:28.forces to continue their offensive? Definitely. Because he did not give
:05:29. > :05:39.them orders to stop fighting after signing. Are you saying to me that
:05:40. > :05:42.the ceasefire is effectively finished? No, it is not finished on
:05:43. > :05:51.my side. My forces are observing it strictly according with the notice.
:05:52. > :05:54.I asked Riek Machar a few days ago whether he was truly in full control
:05:55. > :05:59.of his forces and he insisted that he was. I put the same question to
:06:00. > :06:03.you. Are you truly in control of all the forces fighting in your name? I
:06:04. > :06:09.am in full control. These are regular forces under my command. I
:06:10. > :06:12.am in full control of them. What about the Ugandan battalions that
:06:13. > :06:17.are still involved in this conflict in this country? What about the
:06:18. > :06:22.Justice and Equality fighters who are from the south of Sudan and are
:06:23. > :06:27.fighting in your name? They are not under your control. They are not
:06:28. > :06:34.fighting under my name. They were brought in by Riek Machar. He is the
:06:35. > :06:37.one who brought them in. I have spoken to independent security
:06:38. > :06:40.sources who say that fighters from the Justice and Equality movement
:06:41. > :06:56.from Darfur are fighting in your name. I don't believe it. The time
:06:57. > :07:06.they gave me is over. So they did? When someone else was the governor.
:07:07. > :07:21.What about the Ugandans? They are in South Sudan. They came in after the
:07:22. > :07:24.incident in December. They have been here since 2006. If I may say so,
:07:25. > :07:29.there is irrefutable evidence that the Ugandans have been fighting on
:07:30. > :07:40.your side? I don't deny that. They have been dropping bombs. They have
:07:41. > :07:44.been here in Juba. They have used cluster bombs. No. I never heard
:07:45. > :07:47.about that. When the United Nations came to investigate and they were
:07:48. > :08:02.not given permission to do so, is that because you are embarrassed?
:08:03. > :08:12.Not at all. I was not given information that some agency wanted
:08:13. > :08:15.to come and clear mines. I never got that information. You clarify this
:08:16. > :08:18.as a conflict instigated by Riek Machar but the truth is that right
:08:19. > :08:26.now, it looks like a conflict between tribes with deep ethnic
:08:27. > :08:41.hatred fueling the fighting. It is him who has incited the Nuer against
:08:42. > :08:45.the Dinka. On our side, we have never done that. It has been planned
:08:46. > :08:52.by Riek Machar and we on our side, always diffuse it and tell our
:08:53. > :08:55.people, no revenge. Facts do not appear to show that. The first
:08:56. > :08:58.serious, outrageous acts of violence based on activity appear to have
:08:59. > :09:09.taken place here in Juba right after December 15. We have reports back
:09:10. > :09:11.from evidence from the United Nations and Amnesty International of
:09:12. > :09:14.your troops going into neighbourhoods in this city, seeking
:09:15. > :09:25.out Nuer men, taking them to security facilities and murdering
:09:26. > :09:29.them. When I got the information that there was killing going on in
:09:30. > :09:32.the states around Juba, I set up the commission and then I sent in troops
:09:33. > :09:38.to arrest whoever has taken the law into his own hands. It is the
:09:39. > :09:50.security forces who are doing the killing based on ethnicity. Your
:09:51. > :09:55.security forces. I am not defending them. I am saying that the law does
:09:56. > :09:58.not know who you are. If the security forces were involved in
:09:59. > :10:04.that, they must be punished for their actions. Let's not say if. All
:10:05. > :10:07.of the evidence, including an extensive United Nations report says
:10:08. > :10:15.that your forces were responsible, will you accept that? I will not
:10:16. > :10:21.until it is confirmed. The investigation has taken place. The
:10:22. > :10:32.commission to investigate is there now. Because of those incidents and
:10:33. > :10:35.the deaths of hundreds of Nuer people and the fact that you know,
:10:36. > :10:38.right across the city, thousands and thousands of Nuer people fled for
:10:39. > :10:42.their lives to the safety of United Nations compounds, what we now have
:10:43. > :10:46.is a conflict that looks dangerously like a Rwanda`style ethnic conflict.
:10:47. > :11:12.They are now coming out on their own, they have seen that there is
:11:13. > :11:14.nobody who is targeting them. These people are coming out on their own.
:11:15. > :11:18.They see that nobody is targeting them. What about the people in those
:11:19. > :11:27.camps who are frightened for their lives? These people have been
:11:28. > :11:30.politicised. You say that they are people who have been criticized,
:11:31. > :11:34.Riek Machar has told them not to come out, that they will liberate
:11:35. > :11:37.them. Is this what you tell a woman whose husband has been shot in front
:11:38. > :11:41.of their children? Would you say that she has been politicized? That
:11:42. > :11:48.is just a woman who is saying that it is dangerous to be a Nuer in a
:11:49. > :11:57.Dinka dominated city. You cannot get a survivor to tell you the story of
:11:58. > :12:15.what is happening. Did you ask them? No? His commander of Armed Forces
:12:16. > :12:17.murdered his own deputy commander. You talk about Peter Gadet, he's
:12:18. > :12:20.been identified as one who is responsible for serious atrocities
:12:21. > :12:33.and have had sanctions imposed upon him. The chief of your presidential
:12:34. > :12:36.guard has also had American sanctions placed upon him and United
:12:37. > :12:38.Nations Secretary General has said that those who are responsible for
:12:39. > :12:41.the atrocities and systematic violations of humanitarian law
:12:42. > :12:55.should be held to account in a special tribunal. I agree. But that
:12:56. > :13:05.could be you. If it is me that gave the orders, I do not mind facing the
:13:06. > :13:15.law. Did you give orders? I did not. I did not give orders for fighting.
:13:16. > :13:18.Riek Machar gave orders for fighting and if you are to listen to the
:13:19. > :13:21.security people, he ordered his forces to open fire. Riek Machar
:13:22. > :13:24.says that to understand this conflict today, you have to go back
:13:25. > :13:36.to your governance of South Sudan over the last two and a half years.
:13:37. > :13:46.He says that over that period, you behaved more and more like a
:13:47. > :13:51.dictator. He will have to prove it. He will have to prove what I have
:13:52. > :13:57.done and that I was a dictator. It is an interesting point you say.
:13:58. > :14:02.Let's look at the evidence. Let's look at the evidence. Let's look at
:14:03. > :14:04.the letter written, for example, by a group of senior US State
:14:05. > :14:10.Department experts and South Sudan experts, who wrote an open letter to
:14:11. > :14:13.you in 2013 and wrote this. "We joined you in your fight against the
:14:14. > :14:16.abuses of the regime in Khartoum for many years but we cannot now turn a
:14:17. > :14:25.blind eye when yesterday's victims become today's perpetrators." That
:14:26. > :14:36.was a message to you. To correct whatever that might have gone wrong.
:14:37. > :14:38.In your administration. Even now in the Obama administration, there are
:14:39. > :14:46.mistakes. In David Cameron's administration, there are mistakes.
:14:47. > :14:53.You will not count them on Obama and nor will you count them on David
:14:54. > :14:57.Cameron. But your mistakes appear to have fuelled this crisis. You sacked
:14:58. > :15:00.your entire Cabinet in the summer of 2013.You behave in a way that lead
:15:01. > :15:04.even the widow of Dr John Gerang, the father of your nation, to decide
:15:05. > :15:12.that you should no longer be the president of South Sudan. You
:15:13. > :15:15.oversaw an administration which repressed the media, which appeared
:15:16. > :15:30.to be limiting freedom for people in this country. Not at all. We are a
:15:31. > :15:38.free country. The media is free. Have you seen what they write
:15:39. > :15:43.against me? When they insult me? I will tell you what I have done. Have
:15:44. > :15:47.they been arrested? I have spoken with one journalist who said to me
:15:48. > :15:54.that after he was critical of you on the radio, he was approached by
:15:55. > :15:57.state security. They said, "We know where you live." They also reminded
:15:58. > :16:04.him that one journalist who wrote a critical column in the Tribune
:16:05. > :16:19.newspaper ended up dead. Well, people can take the law into their
:16:20. > :16:22.own hands. They can threaten you. Was it just coincidence that after
:16:23. > :16:24.he had written a column describing your regime as incompetent and
:16:25. > :16:27.useless he was killed? Whoever says that the regime is useless, that is
:16:28. > :16:35.their right to criticise the government. I believe there are
:16:36. > :16:37.people also who see a positive part of the government and can say
:16:38. > :16:45.positive things about the government. But Mr President,
:16:46. > :16:48.through the course of this interview, you have directed your
:16:49. > :16:54.words and your criticism at Riek Machar. You have called him a liar.
:16:55. > :17:00.You say he systematically violates the ceasefire. You accuse him of
:17:01. > :17:04.disloyalty over many, many years. This is the man that you have said
:17:05. > :17:18.to your people you will now work with to get you out of this crisis.
:17:19. > :17:21.How can anybody take seriously your words that you will cooperate, you
:17:22. > :17:25.will work with him, if this is the way you feel about him? When I talk
:17:26. > :17:29.against Riek Machar, it is for what he has done. But that does not
:17:30. > :17:34.really leave me to go my own way and for him to go his own way. We are
:17:35. > :17:38.citizens of one country. There is a need for us to come together, for us
:17:39. > :17:46.to embrace what we have agreed upon and implement it so that our country
:17:47. > :17:49.remains stable. To be clear, then, in the short term, will you invite
:17:50. > :17:56.Riek Machar back into some senior government position, maybe to become
:17:57. > :18:02.vice president again? Well, we will come together. It is being discussed
:18:03. > :18:09.in Addis Ababa. When people come to the conclusion of that, we will come
:18:10. > :18:13.together and the whole conference... And after that, we will see what
:18:14. > :18:21.positions are to be given to him in an interim arrangement. You have
:18:22. > :18:24.talked about interim arrangements, which, as it happens, mean that you
:18:25. > :18:40.will not be facing elections in 2015. It now seems you are intent on
:18:41. > :18:44.staying in power until 2017. It is not me, it is not me. Who is it? It
:18:45. > :18:47.was pushed into my mouth. Pushed into your mouth? By the Americans.
:18:48. > :18:51.They said no elections. I said, "When do you want the elections to
:18:52. > :18:57.be held?" I was here with John Kerry. John Kerry basically demanded
:18:58. > :19:00.you postpone the elections? Yes. Riek Machar says the problems of
:19:01. > :19:02.this country can only be addressed when you leave the presidency
:19:03. > :19:19.because you no longer have legitimacy. My presidency is still
:19:20. > :19:22.valid until next year, when we were supposed to go for elections. By
:19:23. > :19:28.July, the new government should be... Will you stand down next year?
:19:29. > :19:31.We have not yet reached next year. Is it a possibility that you will
:19:32. > :19:38.leave office voluntarily in 2015? We cross our bridges when we reach
:19:39. > :19:42.them. We don't cross them before. Before we finish, let's return to
:19:43. > :19:50.the situation on the ground in this country. Because we have the
:19:51. > :19:56.fighting, we also have a massive humanitarian crisis developing in
:19:57. > :19:59.South Sudan. Yes. I spoke with the director of the World Food Programme
:20:00. > :20:04.yesterday and he said it is no longer a question of whether people
:20:05. > :20:07.die of hunger in South Sudan. It is a question of how many. He is
:20:08. > :20:13.concerned that your government does not understand how serious the
:20:14. > :20:17.situation is. No, we understand. We understand. It is not of our making.
:20:18. > :20:20.It is a man`made disaster and this is why we want the war to stop so
:20:21. > :20:30.that we can allow humanitarian access to everybody in the country.
:20:31. > :20:33.We understand that the civil population is going to face one of
:20:34. > :20:45.the worst famines that has ever been witnessed in South Sudan. This is
:20:46. > :20:50.the time that is coming. You are using the word famine, correct? Yes.
:20:51. > :20:58.What will happen when people starve to death? You are sitting here,
:20:59. > :21:09.saying that your people will starve to death. How does that make you
:21:10. > :21:20.feel? You have failed. I cannot deny that I wish there was no famine. I
:21:21. > :21:24.cannot deny it. Facts are facts. We have to stop this fighting so that
:21:25. > :21:32.we can save the lives of the people, so the people will not die of
:21:33. > :21:40.hunger. As we finish, let's reflect on where your country is today. We
:21:41. > :21:43.started by talking about the hopes and optimism of three years ago.
:21:44. > :21:46.Navi Pillay, the chief of humanitarian affairs in the UN, says
:21:47. > :21:49.you and Riek Machar must take an enormous amount of responsibility
:21:50. > :21:52.for what has happened in this country. He says you have been too
:21:53. > :21:54.busy fighting for power and your personal interests and you have
:21:55. > :22:07.jeopardised the interests of an entire nation. I think leaders can
:22:08. > :22:13.be blamed for whatever mistakes they make. When we came to Addis Ababa,
:22:14. > :22:17.it was the leadership that we wanted to show and this is why we accepted
:22:18. > :22:27.to sign the ceasefire, although we have doubts that it will not be
:22:28. > :22:30.implemented. So, for us, for Riek Machar, if he was to be sincere and
:22:31. > :22:33.frank himself, yes, he would stop his forces from fighting so that we
:22:34. > :22:48.could address the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in our
:22:49. > :22:51.country. As for hopes, I still hope that South Sudan, if there were no
:22:52. > :23:03.conflict today, we would be progressing very smoothly. With
:23:04. > :23:05.respect to that, you were not. You wrote a letter to all of your
:23:06. > :23:15.ministers decrying systemic corruption. And yet $4 billion had
:23:16. > :23:18.gone missing. Your own office, the Office of the President, was
:23:19. > :23:21.investigated. Two of your most senior officials were charged with
:23:22. > :23:24.systemic corruption. With respect, I return to the question. Are you the
:23:25. > :23:39.man to get South Sudan out of this crisis? It was not me. When I came
:23:40. > :23:42.to this office, they elected me. I did not come here through bullets, I
:23:43. > :23:52.came here through the votes of the people of South Sudan. And you still
:23:53. > :24:01.believe you can pull this country back from the brink? I believe so.
:24:02. > :24:10.If these people do not stab me in the back, I can bring this country
:24:11. > :24:13.out of where it is. President Salva Kiir, we must end here, but thank
:24:14. > :24:50.you very much being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much. After a
:24:51. > :24:51.relatively quiet day