:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. The crisis in Ukraine has
:00:17. > :00:20.put the spotlight on the relationship between Russia and the
:00:21. > :00:25.EU. How much carrot and how much stick should be EU wield when it
:00:26. > :00:30.comes to dealing with Moscow? The Baltic states, Latvia, Lithuania and
:00:31. > :00:35.Estonia were once part of the Soviet Union and all share a border with
:00:36. > :00:40.the Russian Federation. Late guest today is Urmas Paet, Foreign
:00:41. > :00:43.Minister of Estonia, the smallest of the three. Why does it think that
:00:44. > :00:44.getting tough with President Putin is the most effective way to contain
:00:45. > :01:18.Russia? Foreign Minister, Urmas Paet,
:01:19. > :01:22.welcome to HARDtalk. In light of the Ukraine crisis, you believe that the
:01:23. > :01:31.EU has the right policy towards Russia? The short answer is yes. I
:01:32. > :01:36.think we should try and find a point between sanctions and other ways to
:01:37. > :01:42.work through talks with Russia. With Russia, also Ukraine should be
:01:43. > :01:49.included as well. All crises have been sold through dialogue and
:01:50. > :01:52.talks. So a combination between carrot and stick? Yes. And now that
:01:53. > :01:57.Russia says it is beginning to withdraw its troops on the border
:01:58. > :02:03.with Eastern Ukraine, how far would you be assured by that? We need
:02:04. > :02:10.facts, concrete facts so that if all this really happens, it is important
:02:11. > :02:13.but we also need to seek what would happen during the presidential
:02:14. > :02:18.elections in Ukraine and the crucial issue is, how the situation in
:02:19. > :02:23.eastern and southern parts of Ukraine will develop. Of course,
:02:24. > :02:30.Russia has huge influence. We will see. Your Defence Minister until
:02:31. > :02:33.mid`March said this: we must admit to ourselves that in Britain's
:02:34. > :02:37.Russia we are dealing with an aggressive regime that is seeking to
:02:38. > :02:43.restore the Empire in the Borders of the former Soviet Union. Do you
:02:44. > :02:49.believe that could happen, that Russia could have designed on
:02:50. > :02:54.Estonia, for instant? The Russian leaders have declared that the aim
:02:55. > :03:01.is to build up the union. We have seen doing the last, year or year
:03:02. > :03:09.and a half direct pressure vis`a`vis Georgia, Moldova, Romania. All this
:03:10. > :03:15.military development in Ukraine as well. What concerns Estonia, we are
:03:16. > :03:21.clearly in a different situation because of our membership in NATO
:03:22. > :03:25.and the EU. But do you honestly believe that Russia, as your former
:03:26. > :03:32.defence said is sticking to restore its empire in the borders of the
:03:33. > :03:37.former Soviet Union? I think the idea is to get the direct influence
:03:38. > :03:45.over Russia's neighbouring countries but once again, Estonia, Latvia,
:03:46. > :03:48.Lithuania, we are in the area of a different situation. We have
:03:49. > :03:52.membership in NATO and the EU. It makes a difference. So you feel
:03:53. > :04:05.safer than Ukraine because you are members of the EU and NATO?
:04:06. > :04:08.Absolutely. Does that mean that Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, if it came
:04:09. > :04:12.to down the Lion could up being part of the Russian Federation is NATO
:04:13. > :04:15.was powerless to stop it? I hope that will not happen. Most countries
:04:16. > :04:21.in the world and also members of NATO and the EU have clearly
:04:22. > :04:25.expressed our views that it is absolutely unacceptable what already
:04:26. > :04:28.happened in Crimea. We have to do everything to stop all this
:04:29. > :04:32.development is in eastern and southern Ukraine. It should be very
:04:33. > :04:38.clear that every country, including Ukraine, should have the chance and
:04:39. > :04:44.right to make decisions are about future. How much carrot and how much
:04:45. > :04:50.stick is there when it comes to dealing with Russia, in your view,
:04:51. > :04:55.in Estonia's view? Would you like to see the EU get more tough with
:04:56. > :05:03.Vladimir Putin? The short answer is yes. There are not so much measures
:05:04. > :05:07.all possibilities for European countries and also the US to
:05:08. > :05:18.influence Russia. We have declared clearly how we would like to see
:05:19. > :05:20.developments. There should be de`escalation and Russia needs to
:05:21. > :05:25.play a role but unfortunately, we have not seen any real
:05:26. > :05:30.de`escalation. What kind of toughness are you talking about?
:05:31. > :05:33.More stations? That is one of the strong as possibilities. But you
:05:34. > :05:37.know that there were deeper sanctions, people like the Austrian
:05:38. > :05:43.Foreign Minister said on the 13th of May, we should not earn `` yearn for
:05:44. > :05:48.sanctions with Russia as they would not only hit Russia but also
:05:49. > :05:57.definitely hit us he means the EU. They are very different options. One
:05:58. > :06:02.is arms, then issues related to different financial corporations,
:06:03. > :06:10.banking. And then all of my colleagues in the EU agree that if
:06:11. > :06:12.escalation goes further and that is no de`escalation in the foreseeable
:06:13. > :06:19.future, we don't have any other option. Sanctions are the cart?
:06:20. > :06:23.Because you don't want to risk your energy ties with Russia because the
:06:24. > :06:28.EU relies on Russia for 30% of its energy needs. In Estonia, you rely
:06:29. > :06:35.on Russia and refined oil and gas to the tune of 100%? That is true. In
:06:36. > :06:41.overall energy consumption, in Estonia, it is 11 or 12% so not too
:06:42. > :06:48.high. In Europe, I guess that all this crisis in Ukraine gave also
:06:49. > :06:53.very strong push really to develop our common energy. But that will not
:06:54. > :06:59.happen very quickly. Something ready happen. Look at possibilities also
:07:00. > :07:05.to revise the flow of gas from Hungary, the luckier to Ukraine, for
:07:06. > :07:11.example. At the moment, we are in the process to start also
:07:12. > :07:16.construction of a gas pipeline. That will take a long time. Nobody really
:07:17. > :07:20.thinks that could be done in the near`term. If you were to have
:07:21. > :07:23.deeper sanctions, Russia could retaliate, couldn't it? We already
:07:24. > :07:28.know that Russia says it will tonight the US, for instance, future
:07:29. > :07:33.use of the International space Station beyond 2020. Russia will not
:07:34. > :07:39.just sit back, will it? What is another option? If we don't want to
:07:40. > :07:44.just sit and wait, we have to do something. I mean, Europe, the US,
:07:45. > :07:49.we have to do something. If we are not moving forwards with sanctions,
:07:50. > :07:54.if it is necessary, what is an alternative? So you accept that
:07:55. > :07:59.Russia could retaliate? Is possible, yes. Can I put to you what Ian
:08:00. > :08:06.Bremner from the Eurasia think tank said: there is a policy is that
:08:07. > :08:12.there is a possibility that Russia will retaliate via a cyber attack.
:08:13. > :08:15.This is something that Estonia complained about in 2007 when you
:08:16. > :08:20.were subjected to what you call, cyber warfare. You accused Moscow
:08:21. > :08:23.and Russia denied. What is the likelihood of cyber attacks with
:08:24. > :08:31.yellow side attacks, unfortunately in today's world, is quite well
:08:32. > :08:38.developed. At the same time, I am also happy that NATO and more
:08:39. > :08:46.countries take it seriously. They have quite well prepared cyber
:08:47. > :08:50.defence systems. We have a NATO cyber defence Centre and we are
:08:51. > :08:55.quite confident that most of European countries and the US,
:08:56. > :09:02.Canada actually are quite well prepared for possible attacks in the
:09:03. > :09:05.cyber sphere. What is the likelihood of Russia going in for the cyber
:09:06. > :09:11.attacks against the US or other Western nations? Some people say 50,
:09:12. > :09:16.60. What do you mean by that? It actually shows that everything is
:09:17. > :09:22.possible but it is quite unclear. If we saw what happened with Crimea,
:09:23. > :09:27.what is going on in eastern and southern parts of Ukraine,
:09:28. > :09:32.unfortunately, it is possible that other not too nice steps can be
:09:33. > :09:37.taken. Do you think that we might possibly be entering the beginning
:09:38. > :09:43.of a chapter in a new Cold War? There will be no new Cold War. It
:09:44. > :09:51.will be completely different situation. There will be no
:09:52. > :09:54.distillation `` de`escalation, if you look back what happened in the
:09:55. > :10:03.20th century, it was all about ideology. Today, it is about sphere
:10:04. > :10:08.of influence. Do you fear Russia in Estonia? Your history was one of
:10:09. > :10:13.repression under the soviet union. You occupied in 1940, lost 20% of
:10:14. > :10:19.Estonia's population through repression or deportations. Has that
:10:20. > :10:25.made you fearful of Moscow, perhaps? All of this what you just said shows
:10:26. > :10:28.how much we would like to see good relations between NATO and Russia,
:10:29. > :10:32.the EU and Russia and that Russia will develop as a normal country. We
:10:33. > :10:35.would like to have good, normal relations with our eastern
:10:36. > :10:42.neighbour. But what you described, yes, it is historic reality. If I am
:10:43. > :10:48.honest, I should say yes, it is part of Estonian society which feels
:10:49. > :10:52.uncomfortable. If you watch on the TV what happens in Ukraine and all
:10:53. > :10:59.of this military training in Russia. That is why we must do
:11:00. > :11:03.everything to stop all this aggressive behaviour. You don't just
:11:04. > :11:09.see it as history that Vladimir Putin, for instance, in that era,
:11:10. > :11:12.these were all just young people that this is something to do with
:11:13. > :11:17.the past, why do you see it as still posing a threat in the present?
:11:18. > :11:25.Because of Premier. Gods of what is going on in Ukraine and 2008 in
:11:26. > :11:32.George R. All this aggression. The decisions made by the Russian
:11:33. > :11:36.Parliament. That is not normal in the 21st century. You keep saying,
:11:37. > :11:41.we feel safer competitive crane because Estonia is a member of the
:11:42. > :11:46.EU and NATO. You say you would like to see good relations between NATO
:11:47. > :11:53.and Russia. Your current Defence Minister keeps on... Is reiterating
:11:54. > :11:56.this point and says: NATO can be effectively used to counter new
:11:57. > :12:02.threats. Is that kind of rhetoric helpful? It just annoys Moscow,
:12:03. > :12:13.doesn't it? I think it is helpful and is clearly showing that the
:12:14. > :12:21.defence principles of NATO are active. It is important to show it
:12:22. > :12:25.clearly to Russia because as I mentioned, it is not only about
:12:26. > :12:30.annexation of Crimea which is outrageous. It is also about the
:12:31. > :12:41.massive military exercises in the whole western Why keep mentioning
:12:42. > :12:45.Russia? Russia has not got the insurance that NATO would not expand
:12:46. > :12:51.endlessly eastwards, and that Russia's interest would be taken
:12:52. > :12:58.into consideration. What it means? Russian interests? Every country has
:12:59. > :13:03.the right to make a choice about the country's future. Estonia has chosen
:13:04. > :13:09.to be a member of EU and NATO. It is our independent choice. Also Russia
:13:10. > :13:14.has the right to choose about Russia's future, not about
:13:15. > :13:20.Ukraine's future or Romania's future. Of course, but there is this
:13:21. > :13:25.understanding, and explicit promise made to Russia that expansion would
:13:26. > :13:31.not reach its borders. I don't know that there was. Dmitry Medvedev is
:13:32. > :13:35.saying that we have these assurances that it wouldn't come right up to
:13:36. > :13:40.our borders. Is it wise, particularly at this hot time, to
:13:41. > :13:44.keep ringing up the fact that Ukraine, for example, could easily
:13:45. > :13:48.become a member of NATO in the future, as the head of NATO said
:13:49. > :13:53.recently. Every country has the right to make these choices, and
:13:54. > :14:00.when we talk about possible future membership of NATO and the EU, in
:14:01. > :14:06.the end it to prance on Ukraine. You have said that we think, Georgia
:14:07. > :14:09.should go in to NATO, do you think that is a good kind of rhetoric when
:14:10. > :14:14.you have Henry Kissinger, for example, in March this year, Ukraine
:14:15. > :14:21.should not join NATO. That is a position I took seven years ago when
:14:22. > :14:26.at last came up. I completely disagree. I don't think that any
:14:27. > :14:31.other country has the right to decide where Ukraine should be after
:14:32. > :14:35.ten years. No, but is that rhetoric useful, coming from governments such
:14:36. > :14:38.as Iran, when Henry Kissinger made the additional point that the
:14:39. > :14:45.demonisation of Vladimir Putin is not a policy. It is not a policy,
:14:46. > :14:49.but NATO did not start what happened in Georgia five years ago, they did
:14:50. > :14:57.not start now in Crimea and the Ukraine, so Russia and the Russian
:14:58. > :15:06.leaders should look at the mirror. You are putting a lot of faith in
:15:07. > :15:11.military powers, but they are cutting their defence budgets. The
:15:12. > :15:16.US will cut it by 9% in 2015, the UK has cut its defence budget by 8% in
:15:17. > :15:23.2010, so where do you see this kind of military might coming from? I
:15:24. > :15:29.still think that what we agreed in NATO a few years ago, that every
:15:30. > :15:34.country should spend 2% of GDP on defence, then we get it. If we like
:15:35. > :15:40.to see that there is support from other NATO members, to Estonia, and
:15:41. > :15:46.also we had to invest into this. You did it, but you have a population of
:15:47. > :15:53.1.3 million, 1.4 million, hardly a major power, is it? Again, always
:15:54. > :15:57.this question, what is a... Still, I think that Estonia has 1.2 million
:15:58. > :16:03.people, but we would like to fulfil all international obligations that
:16:04. > :16:15.we have taken. As you say, Estonia, a population of 1.3 million, about
:16:16. > :16:21.300,000 of that are ethnic Russians, Russian speakers, concentrated in
:16:22. > :16:31.one particular region, where they make up 80%. They make up 95% a lot
:16:32. > :16:37.of them are stateless. They don't have Estonian passports. Why?
:16:38. > :16:41.Because they didn't want them. All people who live permanently in
:16:42. > :16:47.Estonia have the right to apply for Estonian citizenship or Estonian
:16:48. > :16:50.passports. How do they and that citizenship? They have to pass
:16:51. > :16:54.language exams and know a little bit about the history of Estonia and
:16:55. > :16:58.territories. If they can't speak Estonian to a certain level, and
:16:59. > :17:03.because they are ethnic Russians and Russian speakers, and some of them
:17:04. > :17:07.are quite elderly, they won't get an Estonian passport? Elderly people,
:17:08. > :17:13.older people, they have a very easy process. I guess it is natural, if
:17:14. > :17:16.you live in one country, you should know the language, at least on a
:17:17. > :17:27.minimal level. It is not, how do you say, too much... The UNHCR said that
:17:28. > :17:32.there are many children amongst this population, who are also stateless.
:17:33. > :17:35.The UNHCR said there are children amongst them, and you should give
:17:36. > :17:38.them these passports automatically, regardless of what their parents do
:17:39. > :17:47.and whether they are unwilling or unable to get them. We speak about a
:17:48. > :17:54.thousand children, not 300,000. No, I said that are many children among
:17:55. > :17:57.300,000 ethnic Russians. Yes, at the moment, we are going through the
:17:58. > :18:00.process of changing the legislation. Yes, all those children will get
:18:01. > :18:05.Estonian citizenship automatically. Why didn't you do it sooner quiz
:18:06. > :18:14.yellow also today they have the right to get Estonian passport
:18:15. > :18:24.straightaway. The parents just write an application, one sentence. You
:18:25. > :18:32.accept that that is a gap? We are in the process of changing the
:18:33. > :18:38.legislation. Or general rate of unemployment is about 8.9%. If you
:18:39. > :18:41.look at the ethnic Russians, that is 25.6%. It is not so high, I don't
:18:42. > :18:47.know where you get your figures from. Let's not dispute the
:18:48. > :18:51.figures. This is what Europe's human rights watchdog says, with the
:18:52. > :18:57.framework Convention on the protection of national minorities,
:18:58. > :19:01.it says there is a relative absence of ethnic minorities from high
:19:02. > :19:04.levels of public sector employment, and disproportionately high levels
:19:05. > :19:11.of unemployment. I don't disagree. I don't want to divide Estonia. So
:19:12. > :19:15.that there are Estonians and Russians. Estonian society, as you
:19:16. > :19:22.mention, is not very big. It is 1.3 million. To divided internally I
:19:23. > :19:30.don't think it will get an adequate picture. The head of the college in
:19:31. > :19:39.the Russian speaking area of Estonia, it says that Estonia needs
:19:40. > :19:42.to reach out to its Russian minority to provide a different
:19:43. > :19:45.interpretation for world events. You will be storing up problems for
:19:46. > :19:52.yourself if you allow your Russian minority to in any way become
:19:53. > :19:58.alienated. If you compare the situation 20 years ago, to what it
:19:59. > :20:02.is today, I think there has been a very clear and strong development.
:20:03. > :20:06.Yes, you can find, of course, people who are not satisfied. But once
:20:07. > :20:10.again, if you compare it to the situation from which we came after
:20:11. > :20:16.50 years of Soviet occupation, and where we are today, then we see that
:20:17. > :20:24.the situation has improved. Into a thousand... In 2007 you had protests
:20:25. > :20:29.on the removal of a Soviet War Memorial in Estonia. That is an
:20:30. > :20:34.example of how the ethnic Russian minority is not always content. Yes,
:20:35. > :20:42.you can of course find this kind of science. The memorial is now in a
:20:43. > :20:48.military cemetery, and everything is peaceful, after this memorial was
:20:49. > :20:59.removed. This political propaganda... One member from a
:21:00. > :21:02.think tank says that the Russian speaking minority could be exploited
:21:03. > :21:05.in a similar way to Ukraine, using Russian media under the control of
:21:06. > :21:11.the Kremlin. Are you worried that might happen? No. I am absolutely
:21:12. > :21:16.sure that the majority of people in Estonia, including Russians, want to
:21:17. > :21:20.live in Estonia and not in the Russian Federation. I didn't say
:21:21. > :21:25.that, nor but could it be exploited to become more restless, unless
:21:26. > :21:29.there standard of living is improved? Could find different
:21:30. > :21:35.provocations in London, you could find them anywhere. It is easy to do
:21:36. > :21:39.that. If you speak about socio`economic conditions in
:21:40. > :21:45.Estonia, and once again, there is nothing to compare, for example,
:21:46. > :21:51.with Ukraine. China said in March, through a newsagency, it is time for
:21:52. > :21:56.Western powers to respect Russia's role in mapping out the future of
:21:57. > :21:59.Ukraine. The West should show more appreciation for what Russia can do
:22:00. > :22:05.to solve the crisis in Ukraine. Did Russia have a point? I don't see any
:22:06. > :22:11.point. I think solving the problem means annexing one part of another
:22:12. > :22:16.country, I don't think that is solving the problem. So, the Chinese
:22:17. > :22:20.are wrong? Russia doesn't have a unique role, and there should not be
:22:21. > :22:24.more understanding of Russia's history and psychology when it comes
:22:25. > :22:29.to this, as Henry Kissinger says? We can of course understand more, but
:22:30. > :22:36.we cannot give the right to try to have direct influence, political,
:22:37. > :22:42.economic, even military influence, to the neighbours. How far should an
:22:43. > :22:49.EU company like Estonia, once occupied by the Soviet Union, how
:22:50. > :22:55.far should you play a bridging role for the EU between Russia and the
:22:56. > :23:04.EU? Is that something you could do? We can, and I guess we do. Because
:23:05. > :23:06.Russian people in Estonia, also historic experience, I guess we can
:23:07. > :23:12.also give some added value to the discussions. Developments in Russia
:23:13. > :23:16.and the EU, and the Russian relationship. As I said, our
:23:17. > :23:22.ultimate goal is to have at least normal relationship with Russia,
:23:23. > :23:30.bilaterally but also between the EU and Russia. Are you doing that? Yes,
:23:31. > :23:34.we are doing it, but unfortunately, not always the developments are
:23:35. > :23:38.really positive, if we look at what is going on at the moment and what
:23:39. > :23:43.happened in the Ukraine in the last months. Urmas Paet, the Foreign
:23:44. > :23:45.Minister of Estonia, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you, thank
:23:46. > :24:15.you very much. We are going to see some further
:24:16. > :24:20.thundery downpours coming our way, particularly tomorrow night. A warm
:24:21. > :24:30.day, 25 degrees the hotspot in East Anglia, and in northern Scotland,
:24:31. > :24:34.Kinross got up to 24 .5 Celsius. Quite a bit of cloud overnight,
:24:35. > :24:35.bringing thundery showers northwards over Scotland.