:00:00. > :00:12.arrested on murder charges. Now it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:18.Welcome to Hyde Park. Today, a former ally of Uganda's president
:00:19. > :00:22.was of any who have become his biggest critic, Kizza Besigye is
:00:23. > :00:28.Uganda's best known opposition figure. As the former leader of the
:00:29. > :00:31.main opposition party, the Forum for Democratic Change, he has run three
:00:32. > :00:34.times against President Museveni in elections and lost each time. He has
:00:35. > :00:37.called for popular protests in Uganda like the ones that lead to
:00:38. > :00:39.the uprisings of the Arab Spring. So why has he failed to mobilise public
:00:40. > :01:18.opinion behind him? Doctor Kizza Besigye, welcome to
:01:19. > :01:20.HARDtalk. Thank you very much. You have been in opposition for several
:01:21. > :01:25.decades now. What have you got to show for it? A lot I think has
:01:26. > :01:29.changed in Uganda over the last three decades that we have been
:01:30. > :01:35.active in politics there. And that is because of you? Certainly not. It
:01:36. > :01:39.is because of very many people. I would not discount my own personal
:01:40. > :01:47.contribution. What has that been? I think it has been at several
:01:48. > :01:53.leathers. I was involved in the struggle in the. Military struggle.
:01:54. > :01:59.It was a protracted struggle that brought the National Resistance
:02:00. > :02:03.Movement into office. That is the NRM led by President Museveni. We
:02:04. > :02:08.are looking at times when you are an ally of President Museveni. In 2001,
:02:09. > :02:16.2006, two double that you stood in elections against it and lost each
:02:17. > :02:21.time the badly. Is not fair to say I lost cause you only lose if there is
:02:22. > :02:25.a fair contest. Certainly, none of those contest were fair and is not
:02:26. > :02:31.just my opinion. It is the opinion of the Supreme Court of Uganda. They
:02:32. > :02:35.say that the elections were not free or fair and in such a context, you
:02:36. > :02:40.cannot talk about loses. Is that really the case? Buchenwald as are
:02:41. > :02:47.the group and the EU both observe the elections in 2011, the ones in
:02:48. > :02:52.feathery. They said there was some concern about the lack of a level
:02:53. > :02:55.playing field, the use of money and abuse of incumbency in the process
:02:56. > :02:59.but the key thing that Acer is that the question of the legitimacy of
:03:00. > :03:05.the outcome that should not be under question. President Museveni still
:03:06. > :03:10.would have won. The figures were 60% and he won for the forum to do that
:03:11. > :03:15.because it change. Of course, that is not a reasonable conclusion. Once
:03:16. > :03:21.you have said there is a problem with the playing field, it was not
:03:22. > :03:25.level. There was an abuse of incumbency by bringing in so much
:03:26. > :03:32.money. Once you have outlined as things, you can't go ahead and make
:03:33. > :03:37.a conclusion. But they did. That is a diplomatic conclusion. That is
:03:38. > :03:40.partly the problem with these with external observers. You still insist
:03:41. > :03:47.that you might have won the elections. I know that we won those
:03:48. > :03:51.elections. Incidentally, apart from what has been said by the courts of
:03:52. > :03:57.law which investigated because the courts of law had evidence that was
:03:58. > :04:06.presented. The case that were presented to court which was in 2001
:04:07. > :04:11.and 2006, court judges, unanimously agreed that the elections were not
:04:12. > :04:15.fair. I will tell you what was told by the observers in 2011. Now that
:04:16. > :04:19.you have failed for whatever reason at the ballot box, you are shifting
:04:20. > :04:27.your protest to the streets. Trying to get regime change that way? Well,
:04:28. > :04:34.first of all, we proved that the elections were not free or fair. We
:04:35. > :04:44.proved that we had popular support and we now want a fair election. Our
:04:45. > :04:52.protests are not primarily for regime change as they are for a free
:04:53. > :04:58.and fair election. That is not till 2016. That is not how a lot of
:04:59. > :05:02.people see it. A man from the independent magazine said in June
:05:03. > :05:07.2012 after you step down as leader of the FDC in 2012, leading the
:05:08. > :05:12.street protest. He said this radicalised group, largely led by
:05:13. > :05:16.doctor Kizza Besigye has now opted for civil protest to promote regime
:05:17. > :05:24.change. You let regime change we want. You don't necessarily look for
:05:25. > :05:29.routine change without elections. We think there will be elections that
:05:30. > :05:33.must be free and fair. We should have a regime change outweigh. Is
:05:34. > :05:38.that case is that if there was a free and fair election in Uganda...
:05:39. > :05:43.We cannot be judged what will happen in 2016. I want to explore what you
:05:44. > :05:48.said. You say you want protests to make sure the elections are free and
:05:49. > :05:53.fair use it more than that on CNN. You said in 2011 you would not be
:05:54. > :06:00.surprised if what was happening in North Africa, spread in the rest of
:06:01. > :06:05.Africa. Talk of a sub Saharan, African spring. It has not
:06:06. > :06:10.happened. It did not happen even in the Arab countries I was talking
:06:11. > :06:16.about. It doesn't have to happen the moment you say it will happen. All
:06:17. > :06:22.the ingredients that caused the Arab Spring are there in most of Africa.
:06:23. > :06:27.The fact that there is gross marginalisation of large sections of
:06:28. > :06:33.the population, the fact that there is unbelievable corruption and
:06:34. > :06:40.monopoly of power of small cliques of people. And gross violation of
:06:41. > :06:47.rights. All of these things... So you think the ingredients of a?
:06:48. > :06:53.Definitely. Someone wrote that he sensed an Arab Spring is it less
:06:54. > :06:59.likely in Africa because gigabyte of their 1,000,001 imperfections, the
:07:00. > :07:03.political systems in our region are sufficiently participatory, a factor
:07:04. > :07:10.that mitigate against revolution he disagrees with you. He is just
:07:11. > :07:13.expressing an opinion. 65% of all MPs and local council officials
:07:14. > :07:22.don't get re`elected in every election in Uganda. The NRM led by
:07:23. > :07:25.President Museveni holds 254 out of 379 seat in Parliament. The others
:07:26. > :07:30.are held by five opposition parties. There is some democratic space in
:07:31. > :07:34.Uganda. Murder isn't. You must understand the structure of the
:07:35. > :07:41.state. Power is not controlled by President Museveni. It is controlled
:07:42. > :07:46.by him as a person. It is in the interest of President Museveni that
:07:47. > :07:51.MPs and other leaders are not re`elected. Because if they become
:07:52. > :07:56.powerful within the end`around, they undermine his control over the
:07:57. > :08:01.organisation and the state. He wants fresh and informs people to perform
:08:02. > :08:08.the team around him each time. I put it to you that that is some
:08:09. > :08:14.democratic space. Just look at Freedom of the press. Reporters
:08:15. > :08:19.without Borders has looked at lots of countries and it has put Uganda
:08:20. > :08:26.104 out of 179, relatively free press. It than Brazil, Nigeria,
:08:27. > :08:37.Israel and also a whole load of African countries. In terms of free
:08:38. > :08:41.press you have chosen a wrong area because more than anybody else... I
:08:42. > :08:49.moved on to reporters without Borders. Get but in this case he
:08:50. > :08:57.would know that his organisation, the one that groomed him has been
:08:58. > :09:00.closed twice by the military invading it and keeping it closed
:09:01. > :09:07.for weeks. Because of publishing something that was perfectly
:09:08. > :09:10.factual. I am putting it to you that it is relatively... I am not saying
:09:11. > :09:20.it is clearly free press but it is moderately free. You do not have the
:09:21. > :09:25.legal... I would not even categorise Uganda as totally authoritarian. It
:09:26. > :09:28.is a liberal regime, it is controlled, don't forget that
:09:29. > :09:31.President Museveni and all of the leaders that have led Uganda, none
:09:32. > :09:38.of them came to office through an election. All of them came to office
:09:39. > :09:44.through bombing. Their bond they wear into office. At you with him in
:09:45. > :09:51.the beginning, when she? You are his personal physician and you backed
:09:52. > :10:02.him as leader. Yes I did. Were you involved in a bombing campaign is
:10:03. > :10:12.yellow absolutely. The point here is that all our history, there is
:10:13. > :10:16.no... There is no change of government peacefully and all the
:10:17. > :10:23.leaders who have stayed in office have done so with the use of the
:10:24. > :10:26.military. Unless you don't take into the fact that the military brings
:10:27. > :10:29.leaders into office, the fact that they are not chosen by the
:10:30. > :10:33.population, they are not removed by the population means that the
:10:34. > :10:39.population does not have any control over their leaders. The fact is, if
:10:40. > :10:43.you look at Uganda's neighbourhood, you have a lot of instability around
:10:44. > :10:48.you. South Sudan, the problems with Somalia and Al`Shabaab, the terror
:10:49. > :10:56.attacks in Kenya. I put it to you that actually, as is being observed
:10:57. > :11:03.in Egypt sometimes people want rule by a strong person. Of the
:11:04. > :11:08.laboratory is removed and now in elections in Egypt, a lot of people
:11:09. > :11:17.are backing Abdul Fattah al`Sisi. Another strongman. Abdul Fattah
:11:18. > :11:19.al`Sisi is the candidate of national necessity rather than the public
:11:20. > :11:26.desire. There is no choice but to make a military officer and head of
:11:27. > :11:30.government. Because similar things about President Museveni. You have
:11:31. > :11:38.to be very careful about this whole debate of stability and democracy.
:11:39. > :11:45.There is no doubt about the fact that strong leaders can momentarily
:11:46. > :11:52.create some semblance of stability. And a semblance of peace. Is not a
:11:53. > :11:56.semblance of stability. It is real. You have bombs in July 2010 in
:11:57. > :12:03.Kampala when people were watching the football. Healy 80 people died.
:12:04. > :12:09.You have had raids against militant extremists on an island in Lake
:12:10. > :12:15.Victoria in August 2013, a couple of dozen people arrested. You have got
:12:16. > :12:18.a problem in your own country with some Islamist rebels who want to set
:12:19. > :12:27.up an independent Islamic State in Uganda. About 12% of your population
:12:28. > :12:34.is Muslim. Without strong institutions, you can create some
:12:35. > :12:40.zealots of stability and peace. Through coercion and use of diffused
:12:41. > :12:48.state power of people. It is not sustainable. Actually, the ultimate
:12:49. > :12:53.effect is worse. Because they have amassed later the institutions of
:12:54. > :12:56.the state. You have just a strong individual. Once the individual
:12:57. > :13:01.collapses, the state collapses. This is partly what we have in Somalia
:13:02. > :13:04.are quite so it is all right if President Museveni stayed in power
:13:05. > :13:08.indefinitely as long as he is fit and capable to run the country? No.
:13:09. > :13:15.The point I am putting to you is that first of all, that stability is
:13:16. > :13:22.not sustainable. It is sustainable at the moment. The US Defence
:13:23. > :13:25.Secretary at Chuck Hagel in September 2013 thanked President
:13:26. > :13:28.Museveni for Uganda's leadership in the region. He praised Ugandan
:13:29. > :13:32.forces for their efforts to defeat Al`Shabaab for which progress
:13:33. > :13:40.recently approved $14 million extra in aid. If you remove the name of
:13:41. > :13:42.President Museveni, the US forces could be saying the same about Hosni
:13:43. > :15:04.Ma Barak. created the impression that he was
:15:05. > :15:07.the centre... (CROSSTALK) I told you what happened in Egypt. Look what is
:15:08. > :15:10.happening now. People say another strongman will be voted in. I would
:15:11. > :15:13.like to attract you to understand that what is happening now is,
:15:14. > :15:16.things to Mubarak, which undermine state institutions and to strengthen
:15:17. > :15:19.military and which has led to the situation we are having now ``
:15:20. > :15:23.thanks. Museveni said in 2011, I am not Idi Amin. He used to murder his
:15:24. > :15:26.opponents, throw them in the River Nile to the crocodiles. I haven't
:15:27. > :15:29.heard of bodies being thrown to the crocodiles to eat. Idi Ami and
:15:30. > :15:31.managed to get himself notorious worldwide. Museveni isn't Idi Amin.
:15:32. > :15:34.Are you saying that Museveni isn't different from Idi Amin? Absolutely.
:15:35. > :15:36.Would you have been able to walk around the streets if he was in
:15:37. > :15:39.power? Unlikely. The difference is simply in the extent. Not in the
:15:40. > :15:42.direction. They are moving in the same direction. What is your agenda?
:15:43. > :15:45.You have some support. A political commentator in the daily monitor in
:15:46. > :15:49.2014 said this about you. The opposition thinks getting to the
:15:50. > :15:53.people through demonstrations is the best way forward because crowds are
:15:54. > :15:55.exciting and it makes it great when they can chart anti`government
:15:56. > :16:01.rhetoric. This doesn't always turn into votes. As a key figure, what
:16:02. > :16:08.are you saying to people is your agenda? Why should they vote for you
:16:09. > :16:16.if you were to run? What we are fundamentally trying to deal with
:16:17. > :16:21.this injustice. Injustice of marginalising large sections of our
:16:22. > :16:26.people. Our agenda is in three areas. One, to ensure we have an
:16:27. > :16:33.informed, involved, active citizenry. One that can demand and
:16:34. > :16:41.ensure that they are well governed. Also, we want institutional
:16:42. > :16:47.governance, rather than rule, which we are talking about. Institutional
:16:48. > :16:55.governance is underpinned by their respect for rights, the rule of law,
:16:56. > :17:04.and, the effective control of corruption. Corruption, which has
:17:05. > :17:10.devastated all of our services. Three, we want an economy, we want
:17:11. > :17:17.to build an economy that is inclusive. That is broad`based. We
:17:18. > :17:27.have been talking about growth in the economy. 6%, 5%, 7%. Very narrow
:17:28. > :17:34.`based. Is that the case? You have got forecast of 6% growth. The World
:17:35. > :17:39.Bank, in a 2014 report, said this, Uganda has established a record of
:17:40. > :17:43.prudent management and structural reform between 1990 and the 2000s.
:17:44. > :17:49.Strong economic growth enables the substantial reduction in poverty.
:17:50. > :17:54.They have surpassed the millennium development goal of halving poverty.
:17:55. > :18:02.It is on track to meet the others. Museveni has a good track record on
:18:03. > :18:09.tackling poverty. The starting point of the NRM in 1986 was extremely
:18:10. > :18:15.wrong because the state had collapsed. That wasn't Museveni's
:18:16. > :18:21.fault. Pardon? He took over a country that was in a bad way. Do
:18:22. > :18:29.you dispute what the World Bank said, that Museveni... (CROSSTALK)
:18:30. > :18:35.when you are talking about halving, in statistics, it appears
:18:36. > :18:44.impressive. If you have been getting $1 a day, if you get $1 50 each day,
:18:45. > :18:52.you have increased the income by almost 100%. The reality is that the
:18:53. > :18:58.level of poverty, this is part of the problem of the World Bank, is
:18:59. > :19:04.that they just used figures and not real conditions of people. The human
:19:05. > :19:09.development. The conditions of people. I have to say to you, I gave
:19:10. > :19:16.you the UN millennium development goal, approved by all nations and
:19:17. > :19:20.Uganda, as I said, surpassed the goal on halving poverty and is on
:19:21. > :19:24.track to empowering women and reducing child mortality. On track
:19:25. > :19:31.for strategies for sustainable access to drinking water and basic
:19:32. > :19:37.sanitation. I am saying, under Museveni, the economy is helping
:19:38. > :19:47.deliver. No. Over the last 30 years, first of all, Uganda still has the
:19:48. > :19:50.highest, one of the highest birth rates, the youngest population in
:19:51. > :19:58.the world with more than half the people in Uganda being less than 15
:19:59. > :20:02.years. When you are talking about the improvements, you are talking
:20:03. > :20:08.about improvements against these extraordinary expansion of the
:20:09. > :20:15.population in a short time. If you are looking at... Why the wait,
:20:16. > :20:20.mortality has increased from 16 women dying perday to 19. This is
:20:21. > :20:29.the latest report. It has actually increased. `` maternal mortality. We
:20:30. > :20:33.have reduced the instances of HIV/Aids. It has gone back up again
:20:34. > :20:41.so what if you look at other African countries, in some cases they aren't
:20:42. > :20:45.doing as well as Uganda. What are you going to do now? You are a focal
:20:46. > :20:51.point for protesting against the government. As I say, you are
:20:52. > :20:55.involved in walk to work protests against the cost of living in that
:20:56. > :20:58.kind of thing. You were shot in the hand, partly blinded by the police
:20:59. > :21:03.when they used pepper spray on you in April 2011. Will you continue to
:21:04. > :21:09.be the thorn in the side of the government? I am not the problem.
:21:10. > :21:14.The problem are the contradictions which are there. They cause popular
:21:15. > :21:19.anger. Myself as an individual, I wouldn't be able to be a problem to
:21:20. > :21:24.the government. If what I was doing wasn't massively supported by the
:21:25. > :21:29.people of Uganda and indeed, which poses a threat. I don't know how
:21:30. > :21:33.many are attending these rallies of yours? We don't see tens of
:21:34. > :21:36.thousands, do we masse they aren't protesting. If they were not
:21:37. > :21:40.thousands and thousands of people that support what we are doing, we
:21:41. > :21:43.wouldn't be a threat to the regime. We don't see tens of thousands
:21:44. > :21:49.rallying behind you. You failed to rally public opinion. Why would a
:21:50. > :21:53.live as a prisoner in Uganda. I can't live freely. My home is
:21:54. > :21:58.surrounded by soldiers. What would cause that? If whatever I do isn't
:21:59. > :22:03.perceived as a threat regime. I would like to assure you that this
:22:04. > :22:12.is... The reason it is a threat is indeed that 84% of youth in Uganda
:22:13. > :22:16.are unemployed. Don't have work. What is it like to work closely with
:22:17. > :22:20.someone many years ago, admiring them, thinking they are a great
:22:21. > :22:23.leader, then falling out with them so dramatically? What is it like on
:22:24. > :22:31.a personal level? Do you talk to him? I haven't spoken with him
:22:32. > :22:36.directly in 15 years. This was someone you looked after as his
:22:37. > :22:40.personal physician? Not just looking after him as a physician, also as a
:22:41. > :22:46.friend. As a colleague in a struggle. And, as someone I was also
:22:47. > :22:51.professionally related to. And, someone I believe in, someone I
:22:52. > :23:03.thought was indeed committed to the ideals we are struggling for. You
:23:04. > :23:07.can imagine the kind of... Blow that... And even trauma that one
:23:08. > :23:12.feels when you realise that you have invested so much of your time and
:23:13. > :23:18.effort and you have been conned. What will happen now? Will you run
:23:19. > :23:24.for elections in 2016, have another go? Our into a focus, not only me,
:23:25. > :23:29.but the entire leadership of the opposition, including other
:23:30. > :23:34.organisations, is to demand fundamental political reforms.
:23:35. > :23:41.Without them, any election is a fast. Yes or no? I won't run unless
:23:42. > :23:46.there are fundamental reforms which we are investing our time and effort
:23:47. > :23:47.to achieve. Dr Kizza Besigye, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Most
:23:48. > :24:15.welcome. Thank you very much. For the middle part of the week, we
:24:16. > :24:16.are expecting more rain but I'm sure sooner or later we will