:00:00. > :00:12.Qatari organising committee has denied any wrongdoing. Now on BBC
:00:13. > :00:20.News, HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. It took the
:00:21. > :00:22.abduction of more than 200 schoolgirls to focus international
:00:23. > :00:24.attention on the appalling level of violence and insecurity in
:00:25. > :00:26.north`eastern Nigeria. The brutal conflict between the Islamist
:00:27. > :00:33.militant group Boko Haram and government security forces has
:00:34. > :00:40.killed thousands. The Nigerian state is visibly failing millions of its
:00:41. > :00:45.people. My guest today is Doyin Okupe, a senior adviser to President
:00:46. > :01:15.Goodluck Jonathan. Are Nigeria's leaders capable of rescuing their
:01:16. > :01:20.country? Doyin Okupe, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much,
:01:21. > :01:25.Stephen. We have to start with the ongoing story of the 200 schoolgirls
:01:26. > :01:30.who were abducted from their boarding school. By taking those
:01:31. > :01:36.girls, it is clear Boko Haram made the most brazen challenge to your
:01:37. > :01:39.authority and credibility of your government. And it is a challenge
:01:40. > :01:46.your government is failing to meet. Steven, that is wrong. The act
:01:47. > :01:51.itself is dusted Lee and I agree. But it is not a reflection of the
:01:52. > :01:57.seriousness of the challenge. And I will explain why. `` dusted Lee. The
:01:58. > :02:03.girls were soft targets. There were over 217 girls in the secondary
:02:04. > :02:09.school. None of the teachers were there. It was just the girls with no
:02:10. > :02:17.light, or electricity. They were just sitting targets. It is not a
:02:18. > :02:21.reflection on the capability of our military or prepare a for anything.
:02:22. > :02:24.Surely it is the most basic challenge to the ability of the
:02:25. > :02:29.state to protect its most innocent civilian population. In the words of
:02:30. > :02:40.Amnesty International... Steven, that is also wrong. The State is a
:02:41. > :02:44.massive state, it is about 160,000 square kilometres of land. There are
:02:45. > :02:50.over 2000 or 3000 schools in this place. So what you can do this to
:02:51. > :02:59.have, what we do have, is security in these schools. The problem, they
:03:00. > :03:02.contact security. In this situation, schools have been instructed to
:03:03. > :03:07.close down. Until the government has closed down all its schools, schools
:03:08. > :03:15.closing down, and because of these examinations, pupils were taken to
:03:16. > :03:20.the most secure areas. Hang on. For some reason, we can't get it right.
:03:21. > :03:25.Four hours before the abduction operation began, the headquarters of
:03:26. > :03:30.the military were informed of the attack was going to take place. The
:03:31. > :03:41.military did nothing. That is disinformation or misinformation.
:03:42. > :03:46.The military in this area generally receive information of possible
:03:47. > :03:51.attacks over the state. And they routinely ignore them? No, they
:03:52. > :03:56.don't ignore them. Most of them are hoaxes. In this particular case, the
:03:57. > :04:04.information was not that Boko Haram was coming to attack these schools,
:04:05. > :04:08.it was that Boko Haram was coming to Chibok. They did not know exactly
:04:09. > :04:13.where the attack was going to be. By the President's chief spin doctor
:04:14. > :04:18.and media and public affairs adviser. `` you are. How can you
:04:19. > :04:23.explain to me that the government first of all tried to tell the
:04:24. > :04:27.Nigerian media that most of the girls had been freed and returned
:04:28. > :04:31.home, which was patently untrue. Your government doesn't appear even
:04:32. > :04:35.now to have one steady, specific number for how many girls are still
:04:36. > :04:42.missing. And it took more than two weeks for your boss, the president,
:04:43. > :04:46.to make any public statement about this situation. We have three issues
:04:47. > :04:54.here. First of all, the first question was that the girls... Your
:04:55. > :04:57.officials claimed in the early hours that the girls had been freed and
:04:58. > :05:03.returned home. This is what happened. When the event happens,
:05:04. > :05:11.there was no official of the government, neither, nor the vice
:05:12. > :05:14.principal, nor any of the boarding house workers present. So when the
:05:15. > :05:22.military approach them to find out what happened, the principal told
:05:23. > :05:26.the military that several hundred of our girls were in the school. And
:05:27. > :05:32.some of them have returned. And that only eight parents cannot find their
:05:33. > :05:37.children. That is what she said. The confusion began, the confusion which
:05:38. > :05:40.exists today. You tell me exactly how many girls are missing today
:05:41. > :05:48.from that school. You must know. Steven, I will tell you the truth.
:05:49. > :05:54.Only God the government of Borno state, and the principle of that
:05:55. > :06:01.school, the truth about this matter. This is the truth. , come on. You
:06:02. > :06:05.cannot sit here in England and understand the problems we have in
:06:06. > :06:09.Nigeria. This whole thing, in the fullness of time, by God 's grace,
:06:10. > :06:12.we will know exactly what has happened. But until then, only God,
:06:13. > :06:19.the governor of Borno state, the Commissioner of education and the
:06:20. > :06:24.principal. Because here is what... It is a gross dereliction of duty.
:06:25. > :06:30.York President... Can I tell you something? Will am going to tell you
:06:31. > :06:32.that is nobody that I have spoken to on this matter, whether the
:06:33. > :06:35.Governor, the printable, the parents, they have said the same
:06:36. > :06:39.thing. There have been so many versions, so many views, the same
:06:40. > :06:45.number of people as you ask. `` the principal. Lets stop for a second.
:06:46. > :06:49.Why did it take your President more than two weeks to address the
:06:50. > :06:57.Nigerian people on this matter? Hold on. Now, the issue is... Please,
:06:58. > :07:03.just a simple answer. Taking immediate action is that will assist
:07:04. > :07:10.in rescuing the girls. I work for the President. And I work for him 24
:07:11. > :07:16.hours a day. I know, the night when the news broke, immediately the
:07:17. > :07:22.military officials in the country were summoned. The very next day,
:07:23. > :07:24.the council meeting, Security council meeting was held.
:07:25. > :07:28.Instructions were given. Actions were taken. Why do you think that
:07:29. > :07:38.all of these actions that you talk about have failed so completely? For
:07:39. > :07:42.the same reason that kidnappings over the world continue. It is not
:07:43. > :07:48.easy. We don't have the number, that it is more than 200 girls. 200 girls
:07:49. > :07:54.are taken. It is not that the intelligence is not working. We know
:07:55. > :07:58.where the girls are. But we cannot approach them. Has been so much
:07:59. > :08:05.confusion about this. There is not. Your know exactly where the girls. I
:08:06. > :08:09.do not know, I am not a military person. But I rely on what the Chief
:08:10. > :08:12.of the defence forces said. And they are aware. What a terrible
:08:13. > :08:16.indictment of your security forces. They know exactly where these girls
:08:17. > :08:22.are, but it appears they are completely impotent to actually
:08:23. > :08:27.deliver their rescue. Steven, I am surprised you are saying that. The
:08:28. > :08:35.Americans are held hostage, 54 of them were held hostage in Tehran. It
:08:36. > :08:41.took them 444 days to free them. Why are you talking like this is Mac 444
:08:42. > :08:51.days. They know the value. It is their embassy. The hostages were not
:08:52. > :08:57.released for 444 days. Their hostages were in the middle of Iran.
:08:58. > :09:00.Your hostages are in southern Nigerian territory. Yes, it is
:09:01. > :09:06.extremely difficult to nab a DeLaet navigate. Because we don't want to
:09:07. > :09:43.lose any of the girls. Unwittingly unwittingly,
:09:44. > :09:53.expanse of land. 1800 kilometres of desert land. The border between us,
:09:54. > :09:58.Cameroon, Chad, and Icher, `` Niger. It is difficult terrain, made up of
:09:59. > :10:01.tools mountains, and forests. You now have assistance from the United
:10:02. > :10:05.States government will dock that has raised interest in the US Congress
:10:06. > :10:10.about what has gone on. Just the other day a Pentagon official and
:10:11. > :10:14.his rant testified. We're looking at a military force in Nigeria that is
:10:15. > :10:19.afraid engage. And much of the funding that goes to that military,
:10:20. > :10:23.she said, is skimmed off the top. Which is why their resources are not
:10:24. > :10:27.adequate to the challenge. I don't know where she got that information
:10:28. > :10:32.from. We have one of the best military on the continent. We have
:10:33. > :10:36.records, outstanding records... You have soldiers who are unpaid, who
:10:37. > :10:39.say themselves that they go hungry and are not deliver the right kind
:10:40. > :10:47.of food. One told Reuters in Borno recently, that Boko Haram are much
:10:48. > :10:54.better equipped than we are. He said that they are taking a knife to a
:10:55. > :10:57.gunfight. I can't take some of this information is credible. Reuters
:10:58. > :11:00.reported that the President was going to go to Chibok and it was not
:11:01. > :11:05.true. Reuters were told by official sources he was going. Official
:11:06. > :11:12.sources? What does that mean? People like you. If I did I would have...
:11:13. > :11:22.The President did not. I will tell you what. If the President is...
:11:23. > :11:26.With with respect, I have to give you the opportunity to ask some
:11:27. > :11:33.questions. Why is the President not prepared to go to Chibok? Who says
:11:34. > :11:38.he is not prepared to go to Chibok? You have no intention of going
:11:39. > :11:42.to... I said that Reuters Britain is. Therefore I will not rely on
:11:43. > :11:48.some of the information. So let's get this straight. Reportedly to be
:11:49. > :11:53.Nigerian soldiers with their faces shaded. We do know who they are
:11:54. > :11:57.talking to. That could be anybody. Let us get this straight. The girls
:11:58. > :12:01.were taken on the evening of April 14. Here we sit more than six weeks
:12:02. > :12:05.later, the President has not even visited the town where the girls
:12:06. > :12:11.were abducted from. When is he going to go? I am not going to announce
:12:12. > :12:15.that. He is going to go there. Believe me, he is going to go there.
:12:16. > :12:21.We are more concerned, obviously, for you and for everyone else, and
:12:22. > :12:25.quite rightly so. 270 children have been abducted. They have been
:12:26. > :12:29.snatched from school. Their parents are in pain. The whole country is in
:12:30. > :12:38.a very bad mood. It needs a president. But then, when we finish
:12:39. > :12:44.this, Boko Haram... If you take these girls, if you take other
:12:45. > :12:49.people. So we are looking at... Will talk about the wider issues in the
:12:50. > :12:53.minute. A holistic approach. A holistic approach, all right. One
:12:54. > :12:57.more question on the girls, then the wider security challenge. The last
:12:58. > :13:00.specific question is this. Mixed messages on one other aspect of the
:13:01. > :13:04.case. If the government or as the government not prepared to negotiate
:13:05. > :13:14.with Boko Haram about the principle of prisoner swap for the freedom of
:13:15. > :13:20.the girls? He has announced that there will not be won. There are
:13:21. > :13:32.people negotiating right now, are they not? The options are not just
:13:33. > :13:35.military or negotiations. There are other options. It is a Nigerian
:13:36. > :13:42.problem. We are going to find a Nigerian solution to this matter. It
:13:43. > :13:45.doesn't have the fit into the jacket... What is this option you
:13:46. > :13:51.are talking about? Fine. The President has identified something
:13:52. > :13:57.that looks like we can tell them to surrender their arms, you will be
:13:58. > :14:02.granted immunity. We also have information that some of these guys
:14:03. > :14:06.are getting tired. And they getting anxious to come out. We are ready to
:14:07. > :14:12.receive them. It is not just B. Also, you have in Nigeria, very
:14:13. > :14:22.highly credible people, stakeholders who, Boko Haram tend to respect. We
:14:23. > :14:25.are willing to insure that some kind of discussion takes place and the
:14:26. > :14:31.girls are released. But it is a Nigerian problem and we will get a
:14:32. > :14:36.Nigerian solution to the Mac. . It will not confirm to what the world
:14:37. > :14:41.thinks. We are Nigerians. We have always gotten it right. People want
:14:42. > :14:44.to give up on us, we always got it right. That is what it means to be
:14:45. > :15:00.Nigerian. Interesting. So when everyone reports that in
:15:01. > :15:05.recent months, your security forces have been responsible for not just
:15:06. > :15:12.dozens, but hundreds of extrajudicial killings, at they
:15:13. > :15:17.routinely detained and beat suspects, people they believed were
:15:18. > :15:23.from Boko Haram across the Northeast of your country, it is part of
:15:24. > :15:35.getting it right? I agreed to this interview because I had to confront
:15:36. > :15:42.knee`jerk assumptions. These are the same people who said that Nigerian
:15:43. > :15:50.people bombed 70,000 houses and it all wound up being an international
:15:51. > :15:57.scam. It was not true, it did not happen and evidence today has proved
:15:58. > :15:59.the record correct. I have heard governments in many countries say
:16:00. > :16:05.that Amnesty International is not fair what would you say the same
:16:06. > :16:10.thing about the US government or the UN secretary for international
:16:11. > :16:13.affairs? They have been quoted as saying that we have urged the
:16:14. > :16:24.Nigerian government to approach the situation of Boca ROM where `` Boko
:16:25. > :16:35.Haram, where attacks are made with impunity, distrust excerpt. We are
:16:36. > :16:42.dealing with... It is from a human rights perspective. We are dealing
:16:43. > :16:46.with an interior crisis where the insurgents and Nigerians are no
:16:47. > :16:54.different from you and I. I want to tell you, a lady in a wheelbarrow
:16:55. > :16:58.was sitting on an AK`47 in the middle of the town, how do you
:16:59. > :17:06.distinguish between that and Boko Haram? If I went and arrest the lady
:17:07. > :17:12.and put her into a car, they would say, oh they are mistreating
:17:13. > :17:16.people. I am interested in this specific question. Do you think your
:17:17. > :17:20.boss, the president of Nigeria is aware that every single day, dozens
:17:21. > :17:29.of bodies are transferred from the military had orders ``
:17:30. > :17:36.headquarters, a prison to the hospital and Maiduguri with signs of
:17:37. > :17:47.torture... That is not true. We are suffering from a major orchestrated
:17:48. > :17:54.issue. Who is orchestrating this conspiracy? That is the problem.
:17:55. > :18:03.That is the problem. You do not understand the problem of Nigeria.
:18:04. > :18:07.Some people won an election and now they have power and they feel that
:18:08. > :18:18.we are not doing what we should be doing in power. Your people want to
:18:19. > :18:25.take the power, and they have a lot of money and influence and put it
:18:26. > :18:35.over on Nigerians. That there be any relationship between the militant
:18:36. > :18:40.movement Boca ROM `` Boko Haram, and the fact that Nigeria is suffering
:18:41. > :18:45.the most aspect of poverty? That 72% of people in the North and Northeast
:18:46. > :18:53.are living in the most severe of poverty? They will tell you if you
:18:54. > :18:59.ask them, this is a result of long`standing neglect by various
:19:00. > :19:07.governments. Including your own? No! Our government is only three
:19:08. > :19:12.years old, that is the truth. We have reduced the poverty in three
:19:13. > :19:18.years. You have sent signals to the people of the Northeast that they
:19:19. > :19:24.will no longer be neglected. You have to win this war first. You
:19:25. > :19:33.cannot bring money, you cannot do anything unless this is done. I ask
:19:34. > :19:36.you as an ex` patriot, would you go? Maybe the people of the
:19:37. > :19:42.Northeast might take seriously the claims that your government cares
:19:43. > :19:48.for them... Some substantial amount of money has been put into studying
:19:49. > :19:54.what we need to be doing after this war, we have allocated budget money
:19:55. > :20:04.for it, we have already done that. Much would have to be done
:20:05. > :20:10.specially, and the project is a lot, there will be prosperity everywhere.
:20:11. > :20:19.It is not just Goodluck Jonathan, any future president cannot neglect
:20:20. > :20:21.poverty in the country. To address the issue of poverty in the North,
:20:22. > :20:28.your government will have to address the issue of endemic, systematic
:20:29. > :20:32.corruption throughout the nation of Nigeria but particularly in your oil
:20:33. > :20:37.business. You say that you have only been in power three years out what
:20:38. > :20:43.in three years, has your boss done to root out the systematic
:20:44. > :20:49.corruption in the oil business? The oil business is one area that we
:20:50. > :20:56.know has a lot of challenges. Our government has taken a lot of
:20:57. > :21:01.steps... $20 billion in 18 months siphoned out by the state petroleum
:21:02. > :21:06.company. You are not an international journalist and I do
:21:07. > :21:10.not expect you to comment on things that are unreal. That is not my
:21:11. > :21:19.analysis, that is from the central bank. He started with 50 billion, he
:21:20. > :21:29.came back to ten billion and he keeps changing the numbers. It is a
:21:30. > :21:34.joke. It is not true. There is no way that 20 billion would be taken
:21:35. > :21:39.from the Nigerian economy. It is an absolute farce. Here is what might
:21:40. > :21:43.be a joke to some Nigerians, that the head of the Central Bank
:21:44. > :21:49.announces endemic to `` corruption in the state petroleum industry and
:21:50. > :21:58.within weeks of announcing it is detained, suspended from his job,
:21:59. > :22:07.his passport was confiscated and the state security... Argue his lawyer?
:22:08. > :22:17.His case has been tested in court. His allegations are backed by a host
:22:18. > :22:24.of independent companies including Shell oil. There is an independent
:22:25. > :22:29.audit that is going on currently and this president has vowed publicly
:22:30. > :22:36.that once it is concluded, what ever is recommended will be implemented
:22:37. > :22:40.to the letter, no matter who orders it. Do you agree with your most
:22:41. > :22:45.successful businessman in the whole of Nigeria, who said the other day
:22:46. > :22:49.that if you do not tackle the roots of this insurgency, it threatens the
:22:50. > :22:57.very integrity and future of the Nigerian state. I agree. This is the
:22:58. > :23:02.most and greatest challenge of this generation in Nigeria. But I told
:23:03. > :23:09.you, it is a Nigerian problem and we will find a Nigerian solution. We
:23:10. > :23:13.have always gotten over everything that has targeted us. Why would
:23:14. > :23:21.anyone in Nigeria believe you now? After your government's record three
:23:22. > :23:27.years of failure? We have done a lot for the infrastructure. We localised
:23:28. > :23:32.it. You don't recognise this failure that time talking about? What
:23:33. > :23:39.failure? There is no failure in the government. I need to remind you
:23:40. > :23:47.about the achievements of this administration. We got people who
:23:48. > :23:50.are smart to run the economy, we have some of the best people running
:23:51. > :23:54.this government. And we have to end there. Doyin Okupe, thank you for
:23:55. > :24:23.being on HARDtalk. Tuesday will be changing quite a bit
:24:24. > :24:29.from hour to hour but not for everybody. It will be dry but there