:00:00. > :00:08.militants. Now on BBC News, it's time for
:00:09. > :00:15.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. How should we make sense of Nigeria's
:00:16. > :00:18.21st century identity? Newly anointed as Africa's number one
:00:19. > :00:21.economy, it is an oil`rich emerging power. But it is also beset by
:00:22. > :00:24.corruption, poor governance and a wave of internal conflict that could
:00:25. > :00:32.threaten the very unity of the state. HARDtalk speaks to the highly
:00:33. > :00:35.acclaimed Nigerian novelist Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Her
:00:36. > :00:40.fiction explores her country's troubled past and current
:00:41. > :01:10.challenges. How does this writer see Nigeria's story unfolding?
:01:11. > :01:17.Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You have
:01:18. > :01:20.described what Nigeria is going through today, the security crisis,
:01:21. > :01:28.is the most violent period in our nation 's existence since the Biafra
:01:29. > :01:38.war. Do you feel the crisis matches Biafra in terms of its challenge to
:01:39. > :01:41.Nigeria? No. Why? It is strange to compare what was a civil war with
:01:42. > :01:45.two clearly armed sides and in some ways clear sides which largely knew
:01:46. > :01:56.what they were fighting for, whether or not that was a good thing. What
:01:57. > :02:06.is going on now is more and more force and more... I don't think I
:02:07. > :02:10.can compare it. I can't draw parallels. Since then, I don't think
:02:11. > :02:22.that anything else has shaken our sense of security as a people.
:02:23. > :02:25.Before we get to what is happening today, I want to speak about what
:02:26. > :02:30.happened with Biafra, which has shaped you're creative life and your
:02:31. > :02:33.personal life, your family history. We should perhaps start by reminding
:02:34. > :02:44.people exactly what happened in that period in the war of '67`'70. The
:02:45. > :02:48.eastern region of Nigeria fought for secession, for independence, wanting
:02:49. > :02:53.to be a new nation, Biafra, to leave the young Nigeria behind. Your
:02:54. > :02:57.family was caught up in that. My parents lived through the war. My
:02:58. > :03:02.grandparents died in the war. As fighters? They died in refugee
:03:03. > :03:08.camps. They died because there was no medicine in refugee camps. My
:03:09. > :03:14.father was one of the many academics who supported the secession, and who
:03:15. > :03:18.fought for the cause in his own way. He worked in a directorate. At the
:03:19. > :03:34.time, everyone was invested in the war effort. In the beginning,
:03:35. > :03:39.secession was a cause that crossed classes. Towards the end of the war,
:03:40. > :03:44.that wasn't the case. Many people were just in the war... The war
:03:45. > :03:53.hadn't only destroyed lives. I would like to say that the war robbed a
:03:54. > :03:55.generation of its innocence. I suppose it also raised questions
:03:56. > :03:59.about the fundamental integrity of this very new state of Nigeria. It
:04:00. > :04:08.was in some ways a postcolonial construct. I wonder if, as a young
:04:09. > :04:11.girl learning about it with your family, whether you were encouraged
:04:12. > :04:18.to feel Nigerian or whether you were Igbo. I think the idea of being
:04:19. > :04:36.mutually exclusive with a nationalist identity doesn't apply,
:04:37. > :04:39.at least, not in my life. I don't know how committed your grandparents
:04:40. > :04:57.and parents were to the idea of an independent Biafra, but many Igbo
:04:58. > :04:59.wanted no part of Nigeria. That was because of political things that
:05:00. > :05:02.happened. Ethnicity has been politicised for so long in Nigeria.
:05:03. > :05:05.The political decisions that have been taken, targeting ethnic groups.
:05:06. > :05:08.I was both Nigerian and Igbo. Identity is something that shifts,
:05:09. > :05:11.depending on where you are. And, depending on what you are doing.
:05:12. > :05:14.There are times when I am more Igbo than anything else and there are
:05:15. > :05:17.times when I am more Nigerian than anything else, but I have never
:05:18. > :05:45.thought of either as being mutually exclusive. Chinua Achebe, one of the
:05:46. > :05:47.great writers of Nigeria said before he died that he was very
:05:48. > :05:55.disappointed that Nigerians weren't any longer learning enough about the
:05:56. > :05:58.reasons for the war of 67`70. I think he felt that important lessons
:05:59. > :06:01.weren't being learnt. Your book, Half of a Yellow Sun, is all about
:06:02. > :06:04.what happened in tracing a family through what happened. Do you share
:06:05. > :06:09.his feelings? Yes. It isn't something new. Nigeria as a country
:06:10. > :06:16.has never really engaged with Biafra. That isn't surprising.
:06:17. > :06:26.Countries hide parts of their history the they are ashamed of or
:06:27. > :06:30.that they are uncertain about. There is a lot of unresolved issues from
:06:31. > :06:33.that period in history. I don't think it is surprising that I didn't
:06:34. > :06:38.learn much about the nature of Biafra at school. Having grown up
:06:39. > :06:41.the daughter of people who survived the war, who were deeply wounded by
:06:42. > :06:47.the war, I didn't know much either. They didn't talk about it. It is
:06:48. > :06:51.interesting to imagine what your father made of you committing so
:06:52. > :06:58.much of your time and effort as a young writer to exploring that past.
:06:59. > :07:06.I wonder what he made of the end product. My father is a lovely man
:07:07. > :07:13.and I am a daddy's girl. Both my parents didn't talk about that
:07:14. > :07:18.period because they... It was difficult for them. They didn't talk
:07:19. > :07:21.about it until I asked questions. I cannot explain intellectually why I
:07:22. > :07:33.was haunted by that period they have been since I was 13. I would ask
:07:34. > :07:37.questions endlessly. My father was generous enough to tell me what he
:07:38. > :07:40.went through. Many of the stories he told me formed the basis of the
:07:41. > :07:44.novel, Half of a Yellow Sun. I remember when it was finished, I was
:07:45. > :07:47.worried about what he might think. I was at home with them and I left the
:07:48. > :07:54.manuscript on his study table and the next day I left and went to
:07:55. > :07:57.Lagos. And ran away? Yes. I asked my brother to check on my dad and see
:07:58. > :08:01.what his expression was like when he was reading it. My father approved.
:08:02. > :08:12.He said that he was taken by how I had used the details that he had
:08:13. > :08:16.provided. The movie version of Half of a Yellow Sun, which is out in the
:08:17. > :08:32.UK and many Western countries, hasn't been certified, given a
:08:33. > :08:35.certificate for release in Nigeria. Is that because again Nigerian 's
:08:36. > :08:38.and the authorities don't want to be confronted with the divisions, the
:08:39. > :08:57.fragmentation that lies within the country? Our leadership is very much
:08:58. > :09:01.aware of the fragmentations in Nigeria. They don't need a film to
:09:02. > :09:04.remind them of that. Why? I don't know. Everybody is on edge in
:09:05. > :09:07.Nigeria at the moment. Really, because of Boko Haram. It isn't
:09:08. > :09:10.surprising that, because we are on edge, people overreact. The film is
:09:11. > :09:12.about Biafra, based on a turbulent part of our history. Certain people
:09:13. > :09:23.in certain positions get frightened and think that maybe we should let
:09:24. > :09:26.people see this. ``shouldn't. It is a shame. The film isn't very
:09:27. > :09:29.political. The novel is much more political than the film. It is
:09:30. > :09:33.really just a beautiful, romantic film. What is sad is that by doing
:09:34. > :09:36.this, they have politicised it, and now people who watch the film will
:09:37. > :09:40.be looking for something to be offended by. That was then and
:09:41. > :09:42.Biafra did so much to shape that early period of Nigerian history.
:09:43. > :09:55.Today, as you have mentioned, Boko Haram is the biggest challenge to
:09:56. > :09:58.Nigeria's unity and stability. Would you yourself, as you live at least
:09:59. > :10:01.part of your life in Nigeria, would you look at Boko Haram and think
:10:02. > :10:04.that there is something there, which is an expression of alienation,
:10:05. > :10:18.inequality, of deep socio economic problems in your country? Or, is it
:10:19. > :10:29.an expression of something else? I don't think the answer is that
:10:30. > :10:32.simple. I don't think social inequality is the only problem, it
:10:33. > :10:35.is part of the problem. Poverty cuts across the country. It is not
:10:36. > :10:41.something that is particular to the north`east. If you look at the
:10:42. > :10:45.figures, it is striking the degree to which absolute poverty is clearly
:10:46. > :10:52.highest in the north and north`east. I think we should ask the question,
:10:53. > :10:54.why? Nigeria is a common federation. We have an interesting revenue
:10:55. > :11:02.allocation formula, meaning that northern states get more money than
:11:03. > :11:05.southern states. While we talk about poverty in those areas, it is
:11:06. > :11:07.important to talk about there being poverty, but perhaps why the
:11:08. > :11:27.northern government's unnecessarily poor. Then, one needs to ask why.
:11:28. > :11:30.Part of the narrative, which is something that exists outside of
:11:31. > :11:33.Nigeria more than it exist inside Nigeria, is that Boko Haram is part
:11:34. > :11:37.of a socio economic neglect in that part of the country by the country.
:11:38. > :11:40.When you look at the way Nigeria works and the way that the states
:11:41. > :11:44.get their money, it is not true at all that the area should be much
:11:45. > :11:47.poorer. The other way to look at Boko Haram, apart from the socio
:11:48. > :11:49.economic factors, is to take seriously their specfic message,
:11:50. > :11:58.which is against modernity, literally meaning, against Western
:11:59. > :11:59.education. Clearly, with the most high profile, shocking tactics,
:12:00. > :12:02.abducting schoolgirls, particularly in Chibok, they seem to be
:12:03. > :12:04.delivering a direct message against the education of females, and
:12:05. > :12:18.against any progressive, liberal view of gender equality in Nigeria.
:12:19. > :12:30.Is that at the heart of what they are about? I don't think so. I think
:12:31. > :12:38.they are delivering a message about Western education. I don't think it
:12:39. > :12:41.is as gendered. You don't see it as a gendered issue? No. If it was,
:12:42. > :12:49.they wouldn't have murdered innocent boys. This group has attacked both
:12:50. > :12:53.boys and girls. The abduction of the girls, there is something cynical
:12:54. > :13:00.about it. We live in a world where gender matters very much. You make a
:13:01. > :13:08.bigger point if you abduct girls. And, more cynically, you can use
:13:09. > :13:11.them as sex slaves. I don't think Boko Haram is necessarily about not
:13:12. > :13:18.educating girls, I think it is about Western style education being a bad
:13:19. > :13:23.thing. What of the reaction to the abducting of the girls? We know that
:13:24. > :13:27.Boko Haram, anyone who follows Nigeria, knows they have been around
:13:28. > :13:30.a long time, five years, and the violence has been endemic in certain
:13:31. > :13:34.parts of the country for a long time. Something about the event has
:13:35. > :13:39.captured the imagination of the world. With the #Bring Back Our
:13:40. > :13:42.Girls campaign and everything else which began in Nigeria and gained
:13:43. > :13:56.traction when Michelle Obamagot involved. Do you know what the west
:13:57. > :14:01.sees in this particular event? I want to know how you see it. I am
:14:02. > :14:05.not a member of the West, so you might have to ask the West. You have
:14:06. > :14:09.a unique position because you spend half your time in the US and a lot
:14:10. > :14:22.of time in Nigeria and in a sense you have a foot in both worlds.
:14:23. > :14:32.It is a story that fits into certain expectations of what should happen
:14:33. > :14:35.in a place like Nigeria. It's also a story that is easy to connect to
:14:36. > :14:41.emotionally without knowing the political context. One of the things
:14:42. > :14:44.that has happened is because of the emotional weight of the story, it
:14:45. > :14:54.has been constructed in ways that I find interesting, such as the idea
:14:55. > :15:05.that it is just like the Taliban. That fits a prefabricated box. It is
:15:06. > :15:09.not. It is complex in its own way. But at the same time, the attention
:15:10. > :15:26.that has created, in some ways it was useful. It did make the Nigerian
:15:27. > :15:26.government sit up a little bit more. I think it made
:15:27. > :15:31.abductions less as a local political thing, which is what I think they
:15:32. > :15:47.had seen it as, if that will bring the girls back,
:15:48. > :15:58.then it's a good thing. You say you do not see it through the prism of
:15:59. > :16:01.gender, but I want to pursue a bit of a gender discussion with you. You
:16:02. > :16:04.have made a clear point of saying you are a feminist. You rather
:16:05. > :16:12.amusingly said, I am a happy African feminist and some African women
:16:13. > :16:18.assume that cannot be the case. You tell me, how easy is it in today's
:16:19. > :16:29.Nigeria to be a feminist? I don't know about easy. It is what I am and
:16:30. > :16:34.I will die as a feminist. The idea that feminism is somehow a Western
:16:35. > :16:38.import is very troubling to me. It is untrue. But you have said, a
:16:39. > :16:45.Nigerian academic came up to you and said, that is not our culture. That
:16:46. > :16:54.is true, because feminism is limited by a single story. There is a
:16:55. > :16:59.stereotype of feminism. People think it means you do not shave and you
:17:00. > :17:03.burn bras and that kind of nonsense. I was a child who didn't understand
:17:04. > :17:07.why boys were supposed to be more important than I was. I didn't read
:17:08. > :17:11.any books, I just found it silly. I was doing better than the boys, and
:17:12. > :17:24.somehow a boy had to be the class monitor. I thought it did not make
:17:25. > :17:29.sense. We should focus on ability. But in general, it is not an easy
:17:30. > :17:32.thing to talk about gender. I think that is the case everywhere in the
:17:33. > :17:35.world. It is something I think is important because it is important.
:17:36. > :17:46.To what extent does it automatically make you a campaigner? Again, an
:17:47. > :17:50.interesting quote from you, if it is true that the full humanity of women
:17:51. > :17:57.is not in our culture, then we must make it our culture. It suggests to
:17:58. > :18:04.me that you have a real commitment now to changing Nigeria. That sounds
:18:05. > :18:08.very grand. I do not think my ambitions are that... I think I have
:18:09. > :18:13.a bit of a messiah complex, I have to admit to that. I want to work for
:18:14. > :18:16.a better world. Justice is one way to do that. Where do you start? Here
:18:17. > :18:21.is one thing I think is doable. People have used culture as a way.
:18:22. > :18:30.People have said, it is not our culture, so women have to accept it
:18:31. > :18:41.as their lot. My position is that culture is constantly changing. If
:18:42. > :18:44.you had twins 100 years ago where I'm from, twins would be killed.
:18:45. > :18:47.Culture felt that twins were abnormal. 100 years later, people
:18:48. > :18:49.would be horrified at the thought of killing twins. That is fascinating.
:18:50. > :18:56.Let me tell you another question that might be relevant, female
:18:57. > :19:07.genital mutilation. Across Nigeria, that has been pervasive. Not in my
:19:08. > :19:17.part. Not in my part. I am not familiar with it. My mother did not,
:19:18. > :19:20.my grandmother did not. I noticed looking at the figures that across
:19:21. > :19:26.eastern Nigeria the figures were 50%, women going through that
:19:27. > :19:29.experience. Here is the question. If that to some Nigerians still
:19:30. > :19:32.represents tradition and culture, do you feel that there is an absolute
:19:33. > :19:46.right here for a modern Nigerian woman to say, no, that is just plain
:19:47. > :19:51.unacceptable and wrong? Of course. Because culture changes. What I
:19:52. > :19:55.believe very much is the idea that change has to come from within the
:19:56. > :20:02.culture. There are many women in those societies who object to it and
:20:03. > :20:12.are working to change it. I do not believe that culture can be used as
:20:13. > :20:16.a reason for any form of injustice. What is the point of culture? It
:20:17. > :20:25.should be aboubt preserving the continuity of a people. Today, if we
:20:26. > :20:28.continue to exclude women from many positions of power and many cultural
:20:29. > :20:39.institutions of power then at some point we just will not survive. I
:20:40. > :20:43.said that you live half and half. You said you spend most of your time
:20:44. > :20:47.in Lagos. The fact that you had a university education in the US, you
:20:48. > :20:51.have spent a lot of time in the US, and I believe your partner is in the
:20:52. > :20:54.US, does that make you, when you come back to Nigeria and you have
:20:55. > :20:58.written a book about Nigerians who go away and come back from the US,
:20:59. > :21:08.does it make you a harsher critic of your country or a more passionate
:21:09. > :21:17.defender? That is interesting, both. Where would you put the emphasis? In
:21:18. > :21:23.both. That is a cheat. No, I refuse. I think both come together. Leaving
:21:24. > :21:37.home made me realise how much I love Nigeria. How invested I am in
:21:38. > :21:40.Nigeria. But also how we can do better. I was looking at it from the
:21:41. > :21:46.outside. The most intelligent, innovative people I know are
:21:47. > :21:49.Nigerians. Looking at it from the outside, I think, why are we
:21:50. > :21:56.underperforming? That makes me more likely to complain, which is what I
:21:57. > :22:05.do when I am at home. It is the complaining that comes from a belief
:22:06. > :22:10.that we can do so much better. I think we can do so much more. I am
:22:11. > :22:16.deeply, deeply Nigerian. It is not the only country you have. You do
:22:17. > :22:19.have ties in the United States now. You have written a lot about America
:22:20. > :22:23.and talked about how, as an African women going to America, it was odd.
:22:24. > :22:29.There you were defined by your race in a way that you had never been
:22:30. > :22:32.defined by it back home. I wonder, having lived in both cultures and
:22:33. > :22:44.societies, whether you just feel more comfortable in Nigeria than you
:22:45. > :22:52.ever could in the United States? Absolutely. My sensibility is
:22:53. > :22:55.Nigerian. I look at the world through Nigerian eyes. I like
:22:56. > :22:59.America very much, it is not mine. Is that partly because race is a
:23:00. > :23:06.problem? I do not think so. If I had been born and raised there, maybe I
:23:07. > :23:09.would consider it mine. Partly, African`Americans sometimes find it
:23:10. > :23:21.troubling the way in which Africans do not adopt their perspectives.
:23:22. > :23:26.Many Africans don't get it. There is an assumption that if you are a dark
:23:27. > :23:37.skinned person, you automatically understand race. That is the way
:23:38. > :23:41.race functions in America. But that is not true. When I went to the US
:23:42. > :23:47.to go to college and I had no idea what it meant, really. But to be in
:23:48. > :23:50.the US and suddenly hear jokes about watermelon and fried chicken and
:23:51. > :24:02.this was supposed to be offensive, I was utterly confused. It was
:24:03. > :24:07.disorienting. I get it all now. At the time I did not. We have to end
:24:08. > :24:41.there. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, it has been a pleasure. Thank you.
:24:42. > :24:46.We should see an improvement in the weather over the next couple of days
:24:47. > :24:50.before some heavy rain and thunderstorms by Saturday. During
:24:51. > :24:53.today, there will be rain mingling from northern areas but in some
:24:54. > :24:54.looking drier in the