:00:00. > :00:14.going to be. Time for HARDtalk. Welcome to
:00:15. > :00:19.HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Europe is limping out of recession.
:00:20. > :00:22.The jury row zone hasn't collapse `` eurozone hasn't clapped. That is
:00:23. > :00:27.what passes for good news inside the EU. The bad news is more obvious.
:00:28. > :00:31.Unemployment is stubbornly high, so are the debts. European citizens are
:00:32. > :00:37.frustrated and ail convenient Nated and they sigh Brussels as `` see
:00:38. > :00:39.Bruceals as par of the problem. My guest is former EU Commission and
:00:40. > :00:45.Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti. As arguments rage over the identity
:00:46. > :00:48.of the next EU Commission boss, is the EU about to miss another
:00:49. > :01:26.opportunity to reform itself? Mario Monti in the Rome. Welcome to
:01:27. > :01:34.HARDtalk. Pleasure to be here. Would you accept the European Union faces
:01:35. > :01:41.a very real crisis of legit Massey `` legitmacy right now. The European
:01:42. > :01:50.Union faced many crisis over time and indeed I wouldn't say a crisis
:01:51. > :01:55.of legit Massey `` ` legitmacy but a crisis about consensus about the
:01:56. > :02:02.policy it has been conducting, coupled with a sense in many
:02:03. > :02:11.countries, not all, that Brussels have been over intrusive. Well, you
:02:12. > :02:15.say it's more a matter of not ` basic legit a cs but how would you
:02:16. > :02:19.explain in the second election offence e a row just over how% of
:02:20. > :02:24.European voters could be bothered to turn out and for those who did a
:02:25. > :02:32.number larger than ever before voted for parties that are sceptical, if
:02:33. > :02:36.not downright opposed to the very European Union itself? Yes. I think
:02:37. > :02:43.the second aspect is more important and worrying than the first one,
:02:44. > :02:47.because a lot ` it is not something we like, but it is something that
:02:48. > :02:54.characterises many countries, including, for example, the US, and
:02:55. > :03:01.so far it is true that citizens, whether they like or dislike the
:03:02. > :03:05.roon `` European Union they have not seen the governance of Europe as
:03:06. > :03:11.being so impactful on their daily lives. What is most worrying and,
:03:12. > :03:18.indeed, to be reflected upon is the second element that you gave, namely
:03:19. > :03:26.that among those who did vote many, indeed many ` although perhaps not
:03:27. > :03:32.to the expected level, but many indeed, voted for parties which are
:03:33. > :03:37.either against all forms of European integration or unhappy with the
:03:38. > :03:42.present form. I must say you sound a little ` perhaps a little too
:03:43. > :03:46.comfortable as a strong advocate or European integration, you sound a
:03:47. > :03:52.little too comfortable about, for example, the result in France where
:03:53. > :03:55.Marine Le Pen's national front swept the board, they got by far the
:03:56. > :04:00.biggest number of sweets, approaching 30% of the vote ``
:04:01. > :04:05.seats, approaching 30% of the vote. Surely that gives you serious pause
:04:06. > :04:09.for thought? Indeed. I am not comfortable at all, particularly
:04:10. > :04:16.with the result in France. France is a country which has been not
:04:17. > :04:23.achieving very much in terms of domestic reforms anyhow, and the
:04:24. > :04:28.party of Marine Le Pen is like other populist parties, in my view,
:04:29. > :04:35.identifying issues that are real issues. For example, problems with
:04:36. > :04:39.migration, problems with delocallisations of companies,
:04:40. > :04:44.except that again, in my view, most of the recipes of the political
:04:45. > :04:50.platforms of those populist parties have the advantage of being simple,
:04:51. > :04:55.I would say simplistic, oversimplistic, and if applied, in
:04:56. > :05:01.most cases, in my view, they would turn things worse, not better. So,
:05:02. > :05:08.there is a lot to populist in terms of analysing things that do not
:05:09. > :05:15.really go well. In most cases what they come out with may well worsen
:05:16. > :05:20.things even more. Mr Monti, you have over a long career been an advocate
:05:21. > :05:25.of further and deeper European integration. Are you prepared now to
:05:26. > :05:33.acknowledge that your arguments have not won the day in Europe and you
:05:34. > :05:40.haven't taken the European population with you? I have always
:05:41. > :05:45.been in favour of European integration, but European
:05:46. > :05:52.integration with a grain of salt. I am a supporter of the idea that
:05:53. > :05:57.without any prejudice it ` each time in history we assess whether a
:05:58. > :06:05.certain specific power needs to be more centralised, stay as it is, or
:06:06. > :06:09.more discentralised. I do not consider closer integration as
:06:10. > :06:15.neither a good in itself or an evil in itself. Alright. What about
:06:16. > :06:22.Jean`Claude Juncker the former president of Lux Bourke ``
:06:23. > :06:26.Luxembrourg, a man who is keen to become next Commissioner, has the
:06:27. > :06:31.biggest support in the biggest Block, the EPP, do you think he is
:06:32. > :06:37.the right man for that job at this time? I would not express views on
:06:38. > :06:44.individual persons. However, what we can say is that, in my view, the
:06:45. > :06:52.president of the commission should be somebody who is broadly in favour
:06:53. > :06:57.of the European countries working together, otherwise it could well be
:06:58. > :07:06.put in charge of the European decommission for that matter, and
:07:07. > :07:13.then I would agree very much with the British authorities, that
:07:14. > :07:18.particularly this time one needs to have a very, very strong priority on
:07:19. > :07:25.the European agenda for economic reform, for a really deep small and
:07:26. > :07:31.well functioning single market, for trade openness and for a vibrant
:07:32. > :07:38.competition, and I hope we can talk about this in the next few minutes.
:07:39. > :07:42.I believe the UK needs to come out even stronger as an advocate of
:07:43. > :07:45.these forms. Let's talk about what the UK says in the form of Prime
:07:46. > :07:48.Minister David Cameron. We don't have to talk about specific
:07:49. > :07:52.individuals, but what he says is what Europe needs in terms of
:07:53. > :07:56.leadership and what the commission needs is most definitely not any
:07:57. > :08:01.man, or indeed any woman, any politician, whose views were shaped
:08:02. > :08:08.in the '70s and '80s and who represents business as usual. Would
:08:09. > :08:16.you accept that? No. As such, I think it would not do justice to the
:08:17. > :08:18.richness of Mr Cameron's himself political thinking. There is an
:08:19. > :08:23.important point there about business as usual. What he is saying is the
:08:24. > :08:26.next leader of the European commission ` I dare say you might
:08:27. > :08:33.say it about the next leader of the European council as well ` needs to
:08:34. > :08:43.be somebody who has a track record of delivering reform, change. That
:08:44. > :08:55.is, I think, a good point and a track record of the `` of delivering
:08:56. > :08:59.change which can have been proved at the community level in
:09:00. > :09:05.responsibilities as Commissioner or other responsibilities, at the
:09:06. > :09:09.national level, if someone was in charge of being a minister or being
:09:10. > :09:15.head of a government in a member state. So, I would very much agree
:09:16. > :09:21.that one needs to have there somebody who has a culture of
:09:22. > :09:25.reform. With all ` interesting you accept that. With awe dual respect
:09:26. > :09:29.to Mr Juncker and I know you don't want to get involved in Prime
:09:30. > :09:31.Minister, a man who has been Prime Minister for more than a decade,
:09:32. > :09:38.more than anything else an economy built around a tax haven, a man who
:09:39. > :09:41.led the jury zone finance `` Eurozone finance ministers and at
:09:42. > :09:45.one point was heard to say he favoured debate in dark and secret
:09:46. > :09:51.places, he doesn't really seem like an individual who is wedded to the
:09:52. > :09:57.notion of change and reform. But, you see, that if one ` as I am doing
:09:58. > :10:01.now, refrains from tackling head`on the issue of the name of the
:10:02. > :10:04.individual... Why on earth would you do that, Mr Monti? Sorry. This is an
:10:05. > :10:08.important debate across Europe. If you want Europe to be more
:10:09. > :10:15.accountable to its people, surely we should be having this debate? Sure.
:10:16. > :10:21.This does not mean that we should be having it now between you and me,
:10:22. > :10:24.but I will just ` I was just saying that going beyond names of course
:10:25. > :10:30.the final decision will have to be on names, but going beyond names,
:10:31. > :10:38.prompts a dealer analysis like the one you did a moment ago about the
:10:39. > :10:50.criteria with which to examine one's CV. As a matter of fact, nobody
:10:51. > :10:55.would take the responsibility of hiring Ned yum `` medium to top
:10:56. > :10:58.level manager in a company without a proper job description, without a
:10:59. > :11:03.search and of course the political world is something different. We
:11:04. > :11:12.must respect that. But I would certainly not be against the setting
:11:13. > :11:15.of some criteria against which to reckon individual personalities.
:11:16. > :11:21.Alright. That is a bit opaque, if you don't mind me saying. Let me ask
:11:22. > :11:24.you a direct question. Let's try... Let's ` here is one not about
:11:25. > :11:29.personalities. I hope I can get a clear answer from you. There is a
:11:30. > :11:35.raging debate now amongst European leaders and politicians about the
:11:36. > :11:39.wisdom of allowing the European Parliament to, in effect, say we
:11:40. > :11:42.have the right to declare who should be the next president of the
:11:43. > :11:50.commission through our own majority process. That's why the EPP block
:11:51. > :11:53.claims it has the right to select Mr Juncker as the favoured the
:11:54. > :11:59.candidate. David Cameron, but not just him, many others, the Prime
:12:00. > :12:03.Minister in Sweden and arguably even your own Prime Minister in Italy are
:12:04. > :12:09.very worried about this principle and they don't believe the European
:12:10. > :12:13.Parliament was ever in the his bond treaty `` Lisbon Treaty accorded
:12:14. > :12:18.this kind of power. What is your view? They are right, the European
:12:19. > :12:23.Parliament was never given the power to decide on the president of the
:12:24. > :12:27.commission. All the limit isbon Treaty says is the European council,
:12:28. > :12:32.that is the heads of state and governments, should designate the
:12:33. > :12:37.president of the commission having regard, I think is the expression,
:12:38. > :12:43.to the result of the European elections. Then there is the
:12:44. > :12:46.subsequent discretionary appreciation by the European
:12:47. > :12:55.Parliament on whether to rent the confidence or not to the president
:12:56. > :13:00.of the commission. I think all these issues are not easy to understand
:13:01. > :13:04.and... Well, Mr Monti, I am going to keep trying simple questions then.
:13:05. > :13:10.Let's keep it as simple as we can. OK. Rising out of this argument over
:13:11. > :13:14.who should be the next commission president, David Cameron reportedly
:13:15. > :13:19.said to Angela Merkel that if it goes to a man like Juncker, in David
:13:20. > :13:23.Cameron's view, an inappropriate choice, it could well hasten
:13:24. > :13:29.Britain's departure from the European Union. My sim `` simple
:13:30. > :13:36.question is there ` do you care? I care enormously. You probably are
:13:37. > :13:45.not aware ` you may not be aware of the fact that when the fiscal
:13:46. > :13:50.compact was negotiated early December 2011, I was then Prime
:13:51. > :13:55.Minister. So, I was at the table of the European council. I was among
:13:56. > :14:00.those who proposed certain mediations to Mr Cameron for him to
:14:01. > :14:05.be able to say yes to that treaty, and as we come to the next stage,
:14:06. > :14:15.namely the referendum on any change of the treaty that Mr Cameron seeks
:14:16. > :14:21.to achieve before 2017, I am passionately for the UK to remain a
:14:22. > :14:25.member of the European Union. I never insisted honestly for it to be
:14:26. > :14:29.also a member of the jury zone. I think `` Eurozone. It is crucial for
:14:30. > :14:35.the UK and for Europe for the rest of Europe, I should say, that the UK
:14:36. > :14:42.stays a member of the ` of the European Union and becomes more `
:14:43. > :14:48.can I say ` aggressive in its proposals, rather than like they did
:14:49. > :14:55.in 2011, seeking a sort of a carve out of the city of London from any
:14:56. > :15:09.future financial regulation. What I am proposing to the UK is be bold.
:15:10. > :15:12.Cameron want fundamental changes in the relationship between the EU and
:15:13. > :15:19.member states, in particular Britain. He is already talking about
:15:20. > :15:23.fundamental changes to ensure that limits can be put right national
:15:24. > :15:28.government on a number of people coming into the country from those
:15:29. > :15:34.member states who have much lower GDP per capita, for example. He is
:15:35. > :15:37.talking about national governments taking back powers in terms of
:15:38. > :15:41.social directives, working time and things like that. You are suggesting
:15:42. > :15:50.to me that Cameron should wish is really hard, are you? Cameron should
:15:51. > :15:56.put... Push harder not exactly this light a more general concept and
:15:57. > :16:01.concrete concept of the single market. Now, on free movement of
:16:02. > :16:06.people it is a recent development. Perhaps to reflect the concerns of
:16:07. > :16:11.UKIP and others that the British government has become more
:16:12. > :16:16.cautious. In the past, the British government was much older. If we
:16:17. > :16:23.look at the single market for services which is, as you know, now
:16:24. > :16:30.70% of Europe's GDP. There, there is a much more to be done. Honestly,
:16:31. > :16:37.the countries which drag on in the Liberal evasion of services or in
:16:38. > :16:41.building a serious digital single market are normally the large
:16:42. > :16:47.economies and continental Europe. Like France, Germany, sometimes
:16:48. > :16:58.Italy. I would like, for one, to see the UK take the flag up again of the
:16:59. > :17:06.single market. Take a strong leadership role and Sadie: OK, I
:17:07. > :17:14.will not consider that being a member of the EU is worthwhile
:17:15. > :17:21.unless we all collectively are more in`line with what we want... I
:17:22. > :17:25.understand what you are saying and it seems that the single market is
:17:26. > :17:31.an area where Cameron and you have something in common... A lot in
:17:32. > :17:39.common. Here is the thing, Cameron ultimately have to do is wait his
:17:40. > :17:43.own party and people perhaps more sceptical that he has repatriated
:17:44. > :17:46.significant powers back to the UK if he is to go to this referendum and
:17:47. > :17:53.recommend Britain to stay in the EU. What you think the chances are of
:17:54. > :17:58.the EU collectively giving him about repatriation of powers that he says
:17:59. > :18:02.he must have? It depends on what he concretely asks for. Because, for
:18:03. > :18:10.example, if he asks for repatriation of powers, that would make it easier
:18:11. > :18:18.for each national government to play with the rules with which a single
:18:19. > :18:27.market for services is created. Well, I would recommend that the
:18:28. > :18:33.rest of Europe say a square: no. Even if that means the EU `` the UK
:18:34. > :18:38.quits the EU? There is a more intelligent way for the UK to take
:18:39. > :18:45.up a dominant role in Europe at their condition. For example,
:18:46. > :18:50.saving, let's be finally serious on the single market for services.
:18:51. > :18:55.Let's make sure that an infringement, a violation of the
:18:56. > :18:59.single market can be tackled by the European Commission, by the European
:19:00. > :19:05.Court of Justice. As a matter of speed, priority. Is it a credible
:19:06. > :19:10.single market? Market where if a member state are wrecked an obstacle
:19:11. > :19:15.against, let's say it free movement of goods, before that obstacle is
:19:16. > :19:21.dismantled, a legal processes lasting for five or six years is
:19:22. > :19:27.necessary. I would like the UK to be pushing and if this course is taken
:19:28. > :19:36.by the UK, it will happen that unlike in 2011 with the physical
:19:37. > :19:42.combat, the UK will immediately stabilise Denmark Sweden, the Czech
:19:43. > :19:50.Republic... A few allies, maybe. Sorry to rush you might finally on
:19:51. > :19:54.Europe, a former French Prime Minister, Socialist PM says the
:19:55. > :19:57.truth is the UK never wanted to be in the EU. They joined on the basis
:19:58. > :20:00.of a misunderstanding of what the EU was about and they must go before
:20:01. > :20:13.they entirely destroyed the project. This is definitely a
:20:14. > :20:19.position which is not at all my own. I must say to Mr Cameron is anything
:20:20. > :20:26.but I would like the UK to be bold. But not to corner itself. And to ask
:20:27. > :20:33.things that it can obtain with a number of alliances, especially if
:20:34. > :20:38.it does not come to the table with positions that are almost, in
:20:39. > :20:43.principle, unacceptable. I am all for UK to be bold, to be successful
:20:44. > :20:49.and it should not be so difficult for the UK to be also slightly more
:20:50. > :20:54.diplomatic than sometimes it is. Before we end, I want to continue
:20:55. > :20:58.this theme about the changing architecture of the EU. We don't
:20:59. > :21:02.know, frankly, after 2017 whether Britain will be a member of the EU.
:21:03. > :21:08.The balance, the dynamic between the two sort of pillar countries of the
:21:09. > :21:11.EU, Germany and France is a fundamentally changed. You have that
:21:12. > :21:15.in the past and you have talked about your fears for France. Do you
:21:16. > :21:19.believe that, because of the weakness of the French economy,
:21:20. > :21:23.perhaps because of its political system right now that there is a
:21:24. > :21:31.fundamentally damaging imbalance at the heart of Europe between France
:21:32. > :21:41.and Germany? Germany is sometimes called her reluctant hegemony. That
:21:42. > :21:46.is true. We cannot ask one particular country to become
:21:47. > :21:55.weaker, we should be and I think I equal Mr Cameron's terminology here,
:21:56. > :22:00.we should all be competitive in our continent plus the island is. You
:22:01. > :22:03.are alluding to this, a journalist said growing German power and
:22:04. > :22:08.growing resentment of power are the main themes right now in European
:22:09. > :22:12.politics. Would you agree and how worried are you? I am very worried
:22:13. > :22:20.about it. That is the reason why when I was Prime Minister and I had
:22:21. > :22:25.to take very, very tough measures, I always avoided the easy way out of
:22:26. > :22:29.telling Parliament or the Italian public opinion, sorry we have to do
:22:30. > :22:35.that because Germany or the ECB or Brussels asks us to do so. That was
:22:36. > :22:40.the reality and it still is. No, it was not the reality because it is
:22:41. > :22:46.not Germany that asks us to do those things. These are all things that we
:22:47. > :22:56.have subscribed to. In the treaty, in the stability pact, honestly it
:22:57. > :22:59.is also possible, if Germany tries to exceed the relative to what is
:23:00. > :23:08.written there, it is also possible to avoid that. For example, in a
:23:09. > :23:14.European Council in June 2012, I, with a few other colleagues
:23:15. > :23:20.exercised quite a bit of pressure on some Nordic heads of government like
:23:21. > :23:27.Germany, Finland, the Netherlands. And we obtained a position that
:23:28. > :23:32.facilitated vastly the interventions of the ECB. We have to end but the
:23:33. > :23:36.North, south split within the European Union, the fragmentation
:23:37. > :23:42.potential is not going to go away, is it was yellow it needs to be
:23:43. > :23:49.tackled as may be the number one problem. I think, let's be frank.
:23:50. > :23:55.The next parliament, the next council in my view have to build
:23:56. > :24:02.three bridges. One between north and south within the eurozone. To,
:24:03. > :24:08.between the eurozone and the UK and three, between old member state and
:24:09. > :24:12.new member states. It is all about bridge building. That is a great
:24:13. > :24:17.lion to enter because we have run out of time. Mario Monti, thank you
:24:18. > :24:46.very much for joining us from Rome. Thank you.
:24:47. > :24:54.The trend over the next day also is for things to dry out across the
:24:55. > :24:57.country. Today it looks largely bright and warm. There will be a
:24:58. > :24:59.fair bit of cloud around for some but the vast majority can look
:25:00. > :25:00.forward to