:00:00. > :00:00.all. France 13`0. Injury time when against Ecuador for them, taking it
:00:00. > :00:54.to`1. `` 3`1. `` 2`1. Lufthansa, British Airways or
:00:55. > :01:11.Emirates. Is flying always going to be this affordable and accessible?
:01:12. > :01:15.Carolyn McCall, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. I want to begin with the
:01:16. > :01:23.move you made, dramatic move, from being the boss of the Guardian Media
:01:24. > :01:28.Group to taking over easyJet. You didn't know anything, really, about
:01:29. > :01:31.the aviation business before. You've been in the media for decades. How
:01:32. > :01:36.difficult a transition was it? Actually, I knew a lot about being a
:01:37. > :01:40.passenger. Actually, that is quite a lot about being in the industry. One
:01:41. > :01:43.of the reasons I joined easyJet is I liked what they did. They have
:01:44. > :01:47.completely changed the way people travel. I also liked their crew. So,
:01:48. > :01:50.I came up with quite an understanding about easyJet from a
:01:51. > :01:53.passenger viewpoint. There are loads of similarities about being a CEO in
:01:54. > :01:56.one sector and transferring to another. It's a consumer facing
:01:57. > :01:58.business, it's all about people internally, it's about getting
:01:59. > :02:13.people aligned, the vision, clarity of where you're going, media
:02:14. > :02:16.coverage and handling all of that. The brand, the positioning of the
:02:17. > :02:18.brand, the marketing to consumers, there is a huge amount of
:02:19. > :02:27.similarity, actually. It's 24/7. It's interesting that you draw those
:02:28. > :02:30.similarities. It is a ruthlessly competitive business, though,
:02:31. > :02:33.particularly at the low`cost end of aviation. Were you prepared for
:02:34. > :02:35.that? Yes. Oh, very much. I think media is more competitive. And I
:02:36. > :02:38.find it extraordinary, in the airline industry, when people start
:02:39. > :02:41.talking about more capacity coming into the market in the summer, when
:02:42. > :02:44.everybody makes money. I think, yes, well, that's just competition. When
:02:45. > :02:47.you've worked in newspapers, which is where I started my career in
:02:48. > :02:51.media, it's dog eat dog. It's competitive every single day. I had
:02:52. > :02:53.the Times price cutting to 20p. 10p, in fact. I think media is a
:02:54. > :02:56.ruthlessly competitive industry as well. I'm tempted to say, but you
:02:57. > :02:59.wouldn't have had any particular competitor just like Michael
:03:00. > :03:08.O'Leary, who is the boss of perhaps easyJet's most obvious, immediate
:03:09. > :03:11.rival, Ryanair. He is so aggressive, so ferociously competitive. When you
:03:12. > :03:21.took the job, he dismissed you as some old media luvvie. Less of the
:03:22. > :03:24.old, ey? The implication was that you know nothing about how to run an
:03:25. > :03:28.airline. Were you intimidated by that? Not really. I think you can
:03:29. > :03:32.only do what you can do. So, I'm rarely intimidated by anything
:03:33. > :03:36.anyone says. I also think, actually, it's a huge misconception that our
:03:37. > :03:39.biggest rival is Ryanair. It's not. Our biggest rivals are the legacy
:03:40. > :03:42.carriers across Europe. So it's British Airways, Lufthansa, Air
:03:43. > :03:48.France, KLM. Those are our biggest competitors. That's who we compete
:03:49. > :03:50.with. Do you say that because you are definitely trying to position
:03:51. > :03:54.yourself as less of an in`your`face, no`frills, budget carrier than
:03:55. > :03:57.Ryanair? Do you think Ryanair have, and maybe their results in recent
:03:58. > :04:04.times have shown this, gone too far with that concept? I think,
:04:05. > :04:07.actually, Ryanair and easyJet have always had quite different models,
:04:08. > :04:10.actually. We have always flown, for a long time now, for the last eight
:04:11. > :04:12.years, the network is primary airports. We fly into Charles de
:04:13. > :04:19.Gaulle, Schiphol, Madrid, Barcelona, you name it. You name an airport in
:04:20. > :04:24.Europe, a primary airport, and easyJet probably flies there.
:04:25. > :04:28.Ryanair don't do that. They fly to different kinds of airport. They fly
:04:29. > :04:33.into secondary airports. They have a very effective business model, doing
:04:34. > :04:36.that. So, that's one thing. That is the network. People are always
:04:37. > :04:38.surprised that easyJet's network is stronger than any other airline's
:04:39. > :04:43.network in Europe. That's the first thing. I think the second thing is,
:04:44. > :04:46.over the last four years, is we've over the last four years, is we've
:04:47. > :04:48.really thought very hard about the customer, what the customer feels
:04:49. > :04:55.like when they're travelling with us. I think easyJet already had...
:04:56. > :05:02.Its crew was always very customer focused, but very little else was. I
:05:03. > :05:08.think that's been a huge change, it's made a dramatic change on the
:05:09. > :05:11.customer. You talk about change, and it was a turnaround job. When you
:05:12. > :05:13.took over in 2010, easyJet wasn't actually performing terribly well.
:05:14. > :05:16.Most notoriously, your punctuality record was pretty horrible. Ghastly.
:05:17. > :05:21.Half the time, your planes weren't taking off on time. I just wonder
:05:22. > :05:25.whether you feel there's still more to do to improve the reputation of a
:05:26. > :05:27.brand like easyJet. I'm thinking, for example, the last Christmas,
:05:28. > :05:37.when you had terrible problems at your biggest UK hub, Gatwick. The
:05:38. > :05:42.North Terminal, I think, was knocked out by flooding and power problems.
:05:43. > :05:45.The customer feedback was that easyJet didn't care enough about its
:05:46. > :05:50.customers, it left them abandoned in the terminal, and, in the end, it
:05:51. > :05:54.was unprofessional. That was so disappointing. Actually, the problem
:05:55. > :06:00.and the cause of the problem, was completely outside our control. I
:06:01. > :06:03.had my team at the airport. My team, actually, were the first people that
:06:04. > :06:06.found out what was going on at Gatwick. They were there from five
:06:07. > :06:11.in the morning, trying to sort out what ended up being a really, really
:06:12. > :06:14.bad day for Gatwick and for easyJet. But I think the most important thing
:06:15. > :06:23.is that we have really learned from that, as has Gatwick. That will
:06:24. > :06:26.never happen again. There wasn't a contingency plan of the airport, and
:06:27. > :06:30.certainly not signed off by the airlines. We had thousands of
:06:31. > :06:44.passengers on Christmas Eve, because it was Christmas Eve. Thousands. And
:06:45. > :06:47.you never get to that position, you should never have that many
:06:48. > :06:51.passengers not able to take off. As a boss, I wonder what your personal
:06:52. > :06:54.reaction was? Was it, "Oh, my God, I must go down there myself. This is
:06:55. > :06:58.so potentially damaging to the brand that I have to handle this myself."
:06:59. > :07:02.You can't really... I mean, I run an airline and Gatwick was part of that
:07:03. > :07:06.airline, 20% of what we do. We have a team of people at Gatwick. We had
:07:07. > :07:09.a whole team of people at Gatwick. It wasn't so much hands on deck, it
:07:10. > :07:12.was actually not having the contingency plan for a power
:07:13. > :07:15.shortage as well as flooding, as well as one terminal not working.
:07:16. > :07:18.Actually, as an airline, we run all our systems, all our controls, our
:07:19. > :07:21.operational control centre is run from Luton. Everywhere, whether you
:07:22. > :07:24.are in Milan, whether you are in Moscow, it is all run from our
:07:25. > :07:27.operational control centre in Luton. So that's where we needed to be. So
:07:28. > :07:31.we had crisis meetings all day on Christmas Eve. The thing is, I felt
:07:32. > :07:36.awful about that because it did disrupt a lot of passengers.
:07:37. > :07:39.Actually, we spoke to a lot of them, we have e`mailed all of our
:07:40. > :07:45.passengers. We've done as much as we can. I think it also clouded a lot
:07:46. > :07:48.of the good that we've done. If you just think about how many good
:07:49. > :07:51.e`mails we now get, saying, "Thank you for allocated seating, "it's
:07:52. > :07:56.just the best thing you've ever done." You know, business travellers
:07:57. > :07:59.saying, I only fly easyJet because you're better than a flag carrier.
:08:00. > :08:03.Honestly, it's clouded some of that. As an airline, what you have to do,
:08:04. > :08:05.is really pick yourself up and move on. Interesting that you focused,
:08:06. > :08:08.even in the course of this interview, so far, on your
:08:09. > :08:12.determination to challenge what you call the legacy carriers. By that I
:08:13. > :08:15.guess you mean the British Airways, KLMs, Lufthansas. The big airlines
:08:16. > :08:18.that we have been used to for so long. You said that you believe the
:08:19. > :08:22.potential of your company is limitless. Does that mean you think
:08:23. > :08:25.you can knock these companies, the traditional legacy carriers, out?
:08:26. > :08:30.No, look, I think what the legacy carriers do really well is their
:08:31. > :08:34.long haul networks. That's what they focus on. That is where they make
:08:35. > :08:38.their money. Could you do long haul? I don't think we would do long haul.
:08:39. > :08:43.We have no intention to do long haul because we think it's a different
:08:44. > :08:46.kind of business. I think what we're really good at is short haul. We're
:08:47. > :08:50.very efficient, we're very quick, we work very well with the airports to
:08:51. > :08:53.do things that are in the right needs for our passengers. We get
:08:54. > :08:58.them in and out of airports as quickly as possible. Why would you
:08:59. > :09:00.take a high risk strategy to try and do long haul, when your actual
:09:01. > :09:07.proficiency, your area of real competence, is short haul, European
:09:08. > :09:11.travel, by and large? We do fly to Moscow, we fly to Egypt. We do
:09:12. > :09:14.extend that. But the bulk of what we do is short haul. There's no
:09:15. > :09:17.mistaking the scope of your ambition, because you very recently
:09:18. > :09:19.signed a mega deal with Airbus for 135 airliners over nine years, with
:09:20. > :09:29.the potential, possibly, for 100 more than that. Your former owner,
:09:30. > :09:31.boss, founder of the company, who is still, with his family, the biggest
:09:32. > :09:38.shareholder, Stelios Haji`Ioannou, he calls it a vanity exercise. He
:09:39. > :09:44.thinks it's a fundamental strategic mistake. That must be problematic
:09:45. > :09:50.for you? Well, look, we have been very cautious and very, very
:09:51. > :09:53.considered about our growth. We have returns that exceed not just any
:09:54. > :09:59.other airline, but actually, in the transport sector, easyJet returns to
:10:00. > :10:05.its shareholders more money. But he is the biggest shareholder. He calls
:10:06. > :10:11.it a vanity exercise and says, "Look, this is a more than ?20
:10:12. > :10:15.billion deal." Well, you don't know how many billions it is. You don't
:10:16. > :10:18.know how much it is. Well, it might be even more. The price of these
:10:19. > :10:21.planes might go up exponentially. No, it can't go up for us because
:10:22. > :10:24.we've secured a deal. That's a ten year deal. That's based on... I
:10:25. > :10:28.mean, is very, very rigorous. We crawled all over it. We've got a
:10:29. > :10:32.fantastic deal. Remember, also, a lot of these aircraft are to give us
:10:33. > :10:35.the flexibility to grow. But we don't have to. We have the
:10:36. > :10:42.flexibility to actually reduce our fleet if we want to. This is to
:10:43. > :10:48.replace aircraft. A loss of our new orders are to replace our older
:10:49. > :10:53.319s. It is important to know that the average age of our fleet is only
:10:54. > :10:57.four and a half years. There are some planes in our fleet that are
:10:58. > :11:00.eight nine, ten years old and need replacing. So, it's not as simple as
:11:01. > :11:03.saying that 135 planes are coming in and it's only for growth.
:11:04. > :11:06.Understood. We will only grow where we can make money and where we can
:11:07. > :11:13.get returns. We are very returns focused. From a shareholder point of
:11:14. > :11:17.view, I think if you were to talk to easyGroup, they would say they are
:11:18. > :11:20.content with the returns they had. Now, they may want more... But we
:11:21. > :11:24.can't get away from the fact, when we talk shareholders, Stelios and
:11:25. > :11:27.his family hold about 36% of all the shares. Yes. If we're talking
:11:28. > :11:35.shareholders, there is one big daddy amongst them, and that's him. This
:11:36. > :11:38.is what he said. Of the Airbus deal, "I will hold the directors to
:11:39. > :11:42.account by all legal means. If it turns out this Airbus deal destroys
:11:43. > :11:49.shareholder value, I will go to the law." So, as you can see, we've
:11:50. > :11:52.created a lot of shareholder value. When my CFO and I joined the
:11:53. > :11:56.company, on the same day, four years ago, our share price was about
:11:57. > :12:03.?4.20. Our share price, currently, is now well over ?15. So, we've done
:12:04. > :12:07.everything we can to do the right thing for the airline. We have a
:12:08. > :12:09.growth strategy which is based on profitable growth and returns. The
:12:10. > :12:14.majority of our shareholders, actually, backed the fleet deal. The
:12:15. > :12:20.executive, on their own, cannot take a decision, that was a class one
:12:21. > :12:23.transaction. It went to a vote and it was voted through. So I think,
:12:24. > :12:26.actually, fundamentally, what we've demonstrated, I think, is that if we
:12:27. > :12:29.follow our strategy, which is very clear, it is about retaining our
:12:30. > :12:32.cost advantage and, actually, this fleet deal gives us a very
:12:33. > :12:37.compelling cost advantage against any low`cost competition coming
:12:38. > :12:40.through. Account for lots of decisions, including the purchase of
:12:41. > :12:47.airliners, but also for renumeration ` yours and the board's. Your
:12:48. > :12:51.renumeration last year was pretty extraordinary. If you take in all
:12:52. > :12:54.the long`term options, the pension contributions, the salary salary
:12:55. > :13:04.itself, the benefits, it amounts to well over ?6 million. That hasn't
:13:05. > :13:08.been received yet, so you have to be in the company for quite a long time
:13:09. > :13:15.to get your long`term investment plan. Sure, but that's what it's
:13:16. > :13:19.going to amount to over time time, 2013, one heck of a year for you,
:13:20. > :13:22.over ?6 million and now Stelios clearly thought it was excessive and
:13:23. > :13:25.there is a whole sort of economist school of thought now which suggests
:13:26. > :13:29.that as CEO pay gets more and more out of kilter with what is paid to
:13:30. > :13:31.the ordinary members of staff in a business like yours, there is
:13:32. > :13:41.something unhealthy and dangerous about it. Do you see the potential
:13:42. > :13:44.danger? I think the first thing is I don't set my renumeration and I
:13:45. > :13:51.think the second thing to say is we have a renumeration committee. I
:13:52. > :13:54.came into the company, there was a structure already, they reviewed the
:13:55. > :14:02.entire structure of renumeration at easyJet about three years ago. The
:14:03. > :14:05.chair of renumeration committee consulted all our shareholders. So
:14:06. > :14:08.the entire scheme is based on performance. Only on performance. If
:14:09. > :14:11.we don't perform, we don't get our long`term incentive plan, we don't
:14:12. > :14:13.get any bonuses and it is actually highly geared to that. So
:14:14. > :14:27.actually... If you don't mind me asking, what is
:14:28. > :14:31.the average pay of easyJet cabin crew, when you add up all of the
:14:32. > :14:34.extra little bonuses they will get on the performance of the company.
:14:35. > :14:37.The take home yearly average pay of an easyJet cabin crew? Cabin crew,
:14:38. > :14:43.it depends on which country you're in. Well, say the UK, in pounds.
:14:44. > :14:46.?40,000. Something like that. An average captain's salary salary is
:14:47. > :14:49.over ?100,000. Cabin crew, there is a lot of them. My mathematics tells
:14:50. > :14:55.me that therefore you're earning more than 150 times more than the
:14:56. > :14:58.average of your own cabin crew. Now, Thomas Piketty and others have
:14:59. > :15:01.and the rise of a super`salaried and the rise of a super`salaried
:15:02. > :15:12.elite and he and others say that's not good. It's not good for our
:15:13. > :15:17.economy, or the staff of your company and it's not good for the
:15:18. > :15:20.moral well being of nation. I just want your personal reaction. My
:15:21. > :15:25.personal reaction is that I am... The most of what you have talked
:15:26. > :15:29.about is performance`related. The vast majority of my pay is if I do
:15:30. > :15:32.well for the airline and if I do well for the airline, then the
:15:33. > :15:37.shareholders benefit, the people at easyJet benefit and I of course
:15:38. > :15:45.benefit. But it is still 150 times less than yours. And I don't set
:15:46. > :15:49.that. I know. You're the leader, you're the executive chief of your
:15:50. > :15:55.company and I want you to just tell me whether in broad terms you think
:15:56. > :16:00.that is a healthy place to be. Well, all I can say is that easyJet is in
:16:01. > :16:09.a healthy place. I know that the people at easyJet feel more secure
:16:10. > :16:13.than they have done for a long time. They feel the environment that we
:16:14. > :16:19.work in, which is very open, and is very honest and is very ` has got
:16:20. > :16:23.good moral. So people are very aligned behind our cause, which is
:16:24. > :16:26.to make it easy for all our passengers, to make it affordable
:16:27. > :16:30.for all our passengers. People really believe in that. So actually
:16:31. > :16:33.the health of easyJet is better than it has been ever actually. It is one
:16:34. > :16:36.of the strongest companies in this sector. A final thought on this,
:16:37. > :16:39.again Thomas Piketty, his book and it is very much in the news, his
:16:40. > :16:42.conclusion about this rise in inequality and the super`elite and
:16:43. > :16:44.the ordinary worker, his conclusion is the super`elite, the highest
:16:45. > :16:49.earners, need to pay substantially more tax. Again, it's not often we
:16:50. > :16:52.have CEOs in the studio. I just want your personal view. Do you believe
:16:53. > :16:57.it would be right for you to pay substantially more tax? I've never
:16:58. > :17:00.complained about the tax I have paid. But that is not my question. I
:17:01. > :17:04.know. Never complained about that. The rate for the absolute highest
:17:05. > :17:07.earners should be higher. So when you say the absolute, when you call
:17:08. > :17:11.me the super`elite, I don't recognise that. Over ?6 million a
:17:12. > :17:14.year? I have to earn that much... I know you've explained it is a
:17:15. > :17:27.long`term... Over a long period of time of course it's a lot of money.
:17:28. > :17:32.Of course you're in the super`elite. Of course it's a lot of money, but
:17:33. > :17:36.you talk about it as if it is some sort of football game. All I'm
:17:37. > :17:39.trying to say is I can only do, I do the right things for my company
:17:40. > :17:43.regardless of the long`term plan. Do you think it is right for people
:17:44. > :17:46.like you to pay more tax? I've not really thought about it in those
:17:47. > :17:50.terms. I have always thought that people who are earning a lot of
:17:51. > :17:53.money should pay high taxes. I've always thought that. The tax rate
:17:54. > :17:56.for me is not something currently that I wake up thinking about. I
:17:57. > :17:59.think about easyJet. OK. Let's talk about easyJet and regulation nd tax.
:18:00. > :18:03.But as it comes to the corporation tax. You have air passenger duty to
:18:04. > :18:06.pay in the United Kingdom. Airline bosses, Willie Walsh and others,
:18:07. > :18:14.have called it punitive and deeply damaging. Is it in your view
:18:15. > :18:18.damaging your company's ability to grow? Of course it is. It not a tax
:18:19. > :18:21.on airlines, it's a tax on passengers, airlines just collect
:18:22. > :18:28.the tax and give it to the Treasury. So it is a tax on passengers. And
:18:29. > :18:33.the more you tax passengers on air travel, you suppress demand. Even
:18:34. > :18:35.with the most optimistic projections about more efficient engines in
:18:36. > :18:38.airliners, the overall aviation contribution to manmade greenhouse
:18:39. > :18:42.gas emissions over the next 30 years is going to be double if not triple.
:18:43. > :18:49.Is that good reason therefore to use the tax system to curb the growth in
:18:50. > :18:52.aviation. Not just thinking about easyJet, but all around the world?
:18:53. > :18:56.Well we have said with ETS which actually was the EU was hugely
:18:57. > :19:03.pushing, the EU wanted that to happen. The reason that didn't
:19:04. > :19:07.happen, because of America and China I think it was so, actually it
:19:08. > :19:09.didn't happen at all. So you know we have never objected to having an
:19:10. > :19:15.offset carbon scheme for airlines, which was the emissions trading
:19:16. > :19:22.scheme. We have always said that will incentivise airlines to do more
:19:23. > :19:26.of the right thing. But you couldn't do APD and ETF. APD, the the airline
:19:27. > :19:35.passenger tax, is unique to Britain actually and is taxing passengers
:19:36. > :19:38.for flying. Just one very quick final point on that. The Scottish
:19:39. > :19:41.leadership of the SNP going into this independence referendum in
:19:42. > :19:44.Scotland have said if they win and Scotland goes independent, they will
:19:45. > :19:51.put by 50%, if not long`term remove this air passenger duty. Does that
:19:52. > :19:55.mean that you're a supporter of Scottish independence? No, I'm not
:19:56. > :19:57.going to make any political statement about whether I support or
:19:58. > :20:01.don't support Scottish independence, but I think they would do the right
:20:02. > :20:02.Scottish people. Because actually if Scottish people. Because actually if
:20:03. > :20:05.you are flying to and from Scotland you are flying to and from Scotland
:20:06. > :20:16.from England, regularly, you pay tax twice and actually exceed the price
:20:17. > :20:20.of your air fare. So it is punitive and we are an island and you know no
:20:21. > :20:23.matter what you say, air travel is very, very beneficial to trade and
:20:24. > :20:26.it's an important economic and social benefit and there is demand
:20:27. > :20:29.for it and so you know actually airlines have got to be responsible
:20:30. > :20:32.and we have to be responsible, which is why we do what we do, lightweight
:20:33. > :20:35.seats lightweight trolleys, lightweight carpets, everything to
:20:36. > :20:46.do with reducing how much fuel we consume. Almost out of time, but one
:20:47. > :20:51.other key question for you before we close. It may be one you resent, I
:20:52. > :20:54.don't know, you get it a lot, because you're one of only four CEOs
:20:55. > :21:05.who happen to be female in the FTSE 100 companies at the moment. It does
:21:06. > :21:08.mean, and I don't know whether you resent it or not, that gender comes
:21:09. > :21:12.up in interviews with you, simply because it's unusual at the moment
:21:13. > :21:20.There is a lot of talk about quotas. There is a lot of talk about quotas.
:21:21. > :21:22.The European Parliament are suggesting that four out of every
:21:23. > :21:26.ten non`executive directors of companies in the EU must be filled
:21:27. > :21:30.by women by 2020. Do you believe quotas are the right way to increase
:21:31. > :21:33.the numbers of women at the top of business? I don't resent the
:21:34. > :21:36.question at all, I think it is a natural question to ask. The reason
:21:37. > :21:40.I don't think quotas would work in this country is because I think the
:21:41. > :21:43.thing that I worry most about is that there are not enough executive
:21:44. > :21:50.women in work in any kind of really of scale. So there is 6.9% of
:21:51. > :21:57.executive women in the FTSE 100. Why do you think that is? I think there
:21:58. > :22:02.are lots of reasons. I think that a lot of women when they have kids
:22:03. > :22:04.really rethink their lives. I think they sometimes think it is too hard.
:22:05. > :22:07.Companies are often inflexible and quite rigid organisations that don't
:22:08. > :22:11.really think about how they retain women who are between their mid 30s
:22:12. > :22:19.or their early 30s. That is quite a big issue. It is a culture of
:22:20. > :22:22.companies that has to change. So at easyJet, you have done what to
:22:23. > :22:27.ensure your mid`30 middle management women stay? We have done a lot. I
:22:28. > :22:33.think people know that we're very serious about keeping women in work.
:22:34. > :22:36.I think'vest we have got, we started doing a lot of development and we do
:22:37. > :22:46.leadership development. We don't just do it for woman. But we do do a
:22:47. > :22:49.lot more leadership development than we have ever done. We've set up a
:22:50. > :22:52.women's network, where they now run it themselves, but we actually gave
:22:53. > :22:56.it the oxygen to start, which really helps. But I guess the point is a
:22:57. > :22:59.lot of companies don't and if we talk quotas and we talk regulation
:23:00. > :23:03.to enforce the promotion of women. I think the problem with quotas is
:23:04. > :23:09.there won't be enough women. We have to focus on what they're call the
:23:10. > :23:20.pipeline of women. Which at the moment is leaking all over the
:23:21. > :23:23.place. We need to make sure that there are enough women in those
:23:24. > :23:25.middle management jobs that stay and get promoted on to executive
:23:26. > :23:30.committees and management committees so that they are in a good position
:23:31. > :23:36.to get the next jobs. The really senior leadership jobs. Because if
:23:37. > :23:40.we don't have that kind of scale, you're going to be trying to fill
:23:41. > :23:44.and just go, that person is not good enough for it. And in the end there
:23:45. > :23:48.would be a backlash. I mean that is just a very personal view of quotas
:23:49. > :23:51.at this moment in time in Britain. Do you think the culture is changing
:23:52. > :23:54.without that sort of quota system? Are you optimistic? I think that the
:23:55. > :23:58.pace is quite slow actually on executive women. But I think the
:23:59. > :24:02.more women there are on PLC boards, I think Mervyn Davis has done a very
:24:03. > :24:05.good job on that, getting that up to nearly 25% now of women on boards. I
:24:06. > :24:08.think all of that helps influence the behaviour of companies. We have
:24:09. > :24:11.to end there, Carolyn McCall, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
:24:12. > :24:39.Pleasure. Thank you very much indeed.
:24:40. > :24:44.It looks quiet across the UK over the next few days. High`pressure
:24:45. > :24:45.dominates. That does not mean it will be wall`to`wall