:00:00. > :00:12.Kenya. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome
:00:13. > :00:15.to HARDtalk. Arab leaders have called the situation in Iraq the
:00:16. > :00:20.most dangerous in its history and a threat to overall regional security.
:00:21. > :00:23.Jihadist fighters from the Sunni militant group ISIS ` deemed too
:00:24. > :00:26.extremist even by Al`Qaeda ` have seized control of a big chunk of
:00:27. > :00:34.Iraqi territory, including the country's second biggest city Mosul.
:00:35. > :00:37.Thousands have fled their homes triggering a humanitarian crisis.
:00:38. > :00:40.Iraqis have been urged to take up arms against the militants,
:00:41. > :00:48.increasing worries of a sectarian bloodbath. My guest today it is
:00:49. > :00:52.Tariq al`Hashimi, the fugitive former vice president of Iraq. What
:00:53. > :01:25.should Sunni leaders like him do to stop the country fragmenting?
:01:26. > :01:32.Tariq al`Hashimi, welcome to HARDtalk. Do you think that more of
:01:33. > :01:40.Iraq could fall into the hands of the fighters from ISIS? Thank you.
:01:41. > :01:46.Please try to correct your information about what is going on
:01:47. > :01:59.in my country. What has happened in Mosul on the 10th of June is a
:02:00. > :02:08.desperate people revolting. ISIS is just part of many groups who are
:02:09. > :02:22.very active in making the change happened in a Mosul and several
:02:23. > :02:27.other cities. Let us try to look at things as actual underground. ISIS
:02:28. > :02:33.is just part of the groups. They are not everybody. They are not the
:02:34. > :02:37.whole movement in my country. Tony Blair said on BBC TV that the
:02:38. > :02:43.starting point in this crisis is to identify the nature of the battle.
:02:44. > :02:52.It is against Islamist extremism. That is the fight, isn't it? Not
:02:53. > :02:59.necessarily. What happened in the Mosul on the 10th of June, we should
:03:00. > :03:15.not look into this event separate from what has been done since 1.5
:03:16. > :03:25.years. Six months after the invasion, the aggression of the
:03:26. > :03:32.Prime Minister. It is just an extension of the anger and
:03:33. > :03:39.revolution of desperate Sunni people who left behind and lost interest
:03:40. > :03:45.with the political process, who lost interest with the international
:03:46. > :03:50.community. They were left with no other option but to raise their
:03:51. > :04:02.hands and to try and restore. You are referring to the fact that
:04:03. > :04:08.Fallujah fell to ISIS and then Mosul. I use a that the leader of
:04:09. > :04:28.ISIS speaks for the downtrodden Sunni Arabs in Iraq? I am not
:04:29. > :04:34.denying. I am not `` trying to give the rightful side of ISIS in the
:04:35. > :04:37.crisis. They maintain a strong existence and influence on the
:04:38. > :04:48.ground. There is no doubt about that. Do not tell me of all the
:04:49. > :04:53.development in these cities and provinces are dominated by ISIS.
:04:54. > :05:06.ISIS could be the most active fighters in the whole operation. But
:05:07. > :05:16.it is quite unfair to just ignore 14 armed groups. The present the
:05:17. > :05:22.operation. Part of it is ISIS. We understand that. You, Tariq
:05:23. > :05:26.al`Hashimi, formerly vice president until earlier this year of the
:05:27. > :05:32.country, usually in Turkey because the government has tried you in
:05:33. > :05:43.absentia and sentenced you to death, which is why you are in Turkey. But
:05:44. > :05:47.you have got to ISIS in these Sunni heartlands in Iraq. Does it not fall
:05:48. > :05:55.on leaders like you to distance themselves from these extremists?
:05:56. > :06:04.Definitely. We have a different agenda. We have a different
:06:05. > :06:14.programme. We believe in a real state of democracy. The rule of law.
:06:15. > :06:21.Definitely. We are not part of the extremists. The extremists are not
:06:22. > :06:30.part of us. The Americans or the Iraqi army were not able to clean
:06:31. > :06:37.our provinces from al`Qaeda. The Sunni tribes successfully confronted
:06:38. > :06:43.them. The fact is, I am going to ask the international community, what
:06:44. > :06:48.sort of reward is being granted to the tribes? They have been rewarded
:06:49. > :06:58.with the aggression of the government and against the cities.
:06:59. > :07:04.You have to speak out. Do you agree with the Sunni mainstream leaders
:07:05. > :07:09.from the Muslim scholars Association who issued a statement last week.
:07:10. > :07:16.They support the insurgents fighting against the United States, but have
:07:17. > :07:25.rejected the call of ISIS to storm the Shia holy cities, urging Arabs
:07:26. > :07:27.to embrace their Shia countrymen. Surely that is the message people
:07:28. > :07:38.like you should be driving to Iraqis? Definitely. The bottomline
:07:39. > :07:52.is quite clear. We are not adopting any sort of discrimination agenda
:07:53. > :07:59.against the Shia. We do not have any hard feelings against people in the
:08:00. > :08:08.country. They are our brothers. Sorry to interrupt you, why did you
:08:09. > :08:11.say after the fall of Mosul, I bless the revolution of the oppressed,
:08:12. > :08:18.downtrodden and marginalised people in Mosul? I am talking about the
:08:19. > :08:27.Sunni communities. It sounds like you are welcoming the actions of
:08:28. > :08:35.ISIS. That is misleading. I am going to persecute them. They just mislead
:08:36. > :08:45.the my message on my Facebook page. I did not say that. I did not
:08:46. > :08:54.support ISIS. All I said, this is the revolution of desperate people.
:08:55. > :09:02.Whatever circumstances, I would never try to mix things together. We
:09:03. > :09:08.are not extremists. Our agenda is quite clear. I said clearly, they
:09:09. > :09:19.are not welcomed in our territories. The problem is, the international
:09:20. > :09:21.community has left us behind. I made many appeals to international
:09:22. > :09:29.communities, to the United Nations, the United States. I travelled to
:09:30. > :09:39.Europe. You are a mainstream moderate among the city `` Sunni
:09:40. > :09:46.communities. Do you agree with the statement that the Sunni community
:09:47. > :09:52.in Iraq is willing to go to the devil to defeat the Prime Minister.
:09:53. > :09:59.This is where the danger lies. I am not in agreement. I cannot tell you
:10:00. > :10:08.more about the tragedy. We lost hope. We need to salvation. This
:10:09. > :10:18.salvation should be fulfilled beyond what has been done in my country
:10:19. > :10:28.over 11 years. The political process, we lost hope in democratic
:10:29. > :10:36.means to rectify the systematic drifting of the political process.
:10:37. > :10:50.The Prime Minister ruined everything. It came in his control.
:10:51. > :10:54.Is it too late? Can you answer the point that we have seen the last two
:10:55. > :10:59.or three years, ISIS embedding themselves in the Sunni Arab
:11:00. > :11:04.communities in Iraq. Is it too late for the moderate mainstream like
:11:05. > :11:13.yourself to try and eliminate them from these communities? Can you do
:11:14. > :11:23.that? This is not our priority. They are fighting for maintaining and
:11:24. > :11:29.putting an end to injustice. For corruption, for discrimination. I
:11:30. > :11:37.must be very clear on that. We have an objective and ISIS is fighting
:11:38. > :11:43.for the same objective. You are saying that you are fighting with
:11:44. > :11:47.the same objectives. Our ISIS moderate leaders like you willing to
:11:48. > :11:55.put aside your animosity with the Prime Minister in the interests of
:11:56. > :12:02.defeating ISIS? We will not be part of the extremist agenda. Simple as
:12:03. > :12:08.that. We have our agenda and we are fighting for our agenda. The
:12:09. > :12:13.extremists have their own agenda. We are not core operating with them.
:12:14. > :12:18.But they are on the ground. There are influential. You tell me, why
:12:19. > :12:25.are they becoming so strong? Because of the discrimination being
:12:26. > :12:30.exercised by the Prime Minister. Because the United States have
:12:31. > :12:36.delivered the destiny of my country in the hands of Iran. We have hard
:12:37. > :12:40.feelings about what is going on. We are being treated as second`class
:12:41. > :12:49.citizens. We cannot tolerate that. As soon as we lost control. Do not
:12:50. > :12:54.forget in 2008, our message. Please try to revise your possession. No
:12:55. > :12:58.longer fight the Americans. The Americans will abandon our country.
:12:59. > :13:08.Try to be part of the political process. They listened to our
:13:09. > :13:13.message. They joined forces. After three years, they just discovered
:13:14. > :13:22.that as we have been misleading them, they are now behind bars, in
:13:23. > :13:28.prison. They are becoming refugees. I do not worried? You talk about
:13:29. > :13:36.alienation and discrimination of the Tariq al`Hashimi community `` Sunni
:13:37. > :13:44.community in Iraq. I.e. Not worried that your ally yourselves that
:13:45. > :13:49.global jihad is threat? ISIS has some Western fighters with them.
:13:50. > :13:54.They want to establish a caliphate that does not respect national
:13:55. > :14:01.borders. Are you not worried about that?
:14:02. > :14:10.I am not! You said you share the same objectives. No, it has happened
:14:11. > :14:16.like that. I'm not the party who should be blamed. What do you do ``
:14:17. > :14:24.do you do now? You should blame the Americans! Not me. Security is not
:14:25. > :14:30.in my hands. The security file is in the hands of the Americans and...
:14:31. > :14:35.You shouldn't blame me for that. I was asking you what you would do
:14:36. > :14:38.because you know that there are more direct Sunni Muslims in Iraq, like
:14:39. > :14:48.the Speaker of the Parliament, who says he will have talks to try to
:14:49. > :14:54.see if they can find a way to stop ISIS gaining more ground. ``
:14:55. > :14:58.moderate Sunni Muslims. I am also very much interested in a plan of
:14:59. > :15:12.salvage. A political solution to the current crisis. But where is the
:15:13. > :15:20.mediator? As I said, they have just been left behind. For many years, I
:15:21. > :15:26.kept sending reports to the UN, the Security Council, the United
:15:27. > :15:32.States, to try to draw their attention to the growing extremism
:15:33. > :15:38.in our community. But nobody listened. They aren't productive.
:15:39. > :15:46.They are now actively gained, when things are becoming blurred. ``
:15:47. > :15:52.active game. Now, Western countries awaken and say, what happened? We
:15:53. > :15:56.are caught by surprise! I couldn't understand this sort of policy and
:15:57. > :16:04.attitude. But you do accept that, after decades, even centuries, of
:16:05. > :16:08.the Sunnis being the rulers of Iraq, the Sunni Arabs only make up 15% of
:16:09. > :16:17.the population, the Kurds are also Sunnis. But 65% of the country is
:16:18. > :16:22.sheer. Do you accept that you have two reverse those decades and
:16:23. > :16:30.decades of sheer pressured, when Saddam Hussein ruled over them? ``
:16:31. > :16:34.Shia oppression. And perhaps you Sunnis are finding that difficult? I
:16:35. > :16:39.don't agree. The figures you mentioned are misleading. I ask you
:16:40. > :16:46.to give me the background and research from where you got it. All
:16:47. > :16:52.right, what is your figure for the Sunni `` Sunnis in Iraq? We are not
:16:53. > :17:01.a minority. We are not a minor component, we are a prime component
:17:02. > :17:11.in Iraq. OK, the Shia community could be as many as 56%. But they
:17:12. > :17:17.are not exceeding... Secondly, OK, even if they are the majority, is it
:17:18. > :17:25.fair that I should be blamed for all the mistress, the hurt, they
:17:26. > :17:34.suffered from the previous regime? `` Miss `` problems. I accepted to
:17:35. > :17:37.be a politician in a peaceful political process. I made all my
:17:38. > :17:43.people angry because I opted for that. Then, when it came to the
:17:44. > :17:50.referendum on the cross edition, I educated my people to go and vote
:17:51. > :17:55.yes. `` Constitution. Where did you go from here? Where do you go from
:17:56. > :17:59.here and how does Iraq face what the Arab league has described as the
:18:00. > :18:05.most dangerous period in its history? How do you deal with this?
:18:06. > :18:15.What is your solution? The problem is beyond the capacity of the Iraqis
:18:16. > :18:18.to shoulder a loan. My appeal to the UN is to share the responsibilities,
:18:19. > :18:25.without any further delay or relaxation. They should try to
:18:26. > :18:31.dedicate themselves to resolve the Iraqi crisis. First of all, we, as
:18:32. > :18:38.representatives of the Sunni row communities, we are very much in
:18:39. > :18:41.need of a fair statement. `` Sunni immunities. I will never accept
:18:42. > :18:49.these allegations in the international media. They try to
:18:50. > :18:55.paint the ISIS colour on the desperate people revolution. This is
:18:56. > :19:01.in no way acceptable and I am frankly sane to make `` it makes my
:19:02. > :19:08.people very angry. We accept that. We aren't saying... But the point I
:19:09. > :19:14.am making is, how do you get out of this current crisis? You have said
:19:15. > :19:17.quite clearly you do not want ISIS to advance, you don't share their
:19:18. > :19:23.objectives, setting up an Islamic police eight. What do you do?
:19:24. > :19:28.Caliphate. They may consider other options. What do you do? You say you
:19:29. > :19:36.want the international community to come in. To do what? First of all,
:19:37. > :19:41.at least the international community should invite a delegation from the
:19:42. > :19:48.Arab Sunni row community. `` Sunni. To our aspirations. At least to
:19:49. > :19:53.explain why my people now are becoming so angry and raised their
:19:54. > :19:58.arms against the Maliki government. There must be justification. It
:19:59. > :20:07.isn't an agent of ISIS, it is an agent of fighting the
:20:08. > :20:10.discrimination. I would like to hear a fair statement issued by the
:20:11. > :20:19.Security Council, that they are understanding the revolt of the
:20:20. > :20:23.desperate people. We would like the understanding of international
:20:24. > :20:30.community and then in due course we could open the par`4 a dialogue. ``
:20:31. > :20:38.par`4 a dialogue to put things under control. What do you want? For
:20:39. > :20:43.example, would you want to see the Prime Minister stepping down? Do you
:20:44. > :20:48.want concessions from the Shia led government? What do you want to
:20:49. > :20:58.alert the international community about? It is premature now, after
:20:59. > :21:01.the developments on the ground. I think things are being changed now.
:21:02. > :21:11.In the past, a few weeks ago, we were very much hoping that Maliki
:21:12. > :21:14.would become open`minded and resign. But, regardless of the national
:21:15. > :21:21.rejection, even the Shia projecting him, he persists as prime minister.
:21:22. > :21:31.`` rejecting. In April, in the elections, he won three times as
:21:32. > :21:35.much as his nearest rival. His faction won 92 seats out of 328 in
:21:36. > :21:39.the Iraqi parliament, far more than any other group. He does have a
:21:40. > :21:55.democratic mandate. You have to accept that? We had the same size of
:21:56. > :21:59.votes. We voted in 2010. Why are the people being deprived to form a
:22:00. > :22:08.government? We shouldn't play games. We are talking about the elections
:22:09. > :22:19.just now. Regardless of the number of votes that Maliki God, it's yet
:22:20. > :22:26.to be seen... Forming the majority. Now we have Shia, the Kurdish, the
:22:27. > :22:37.Liberals, all of them are just about to announce this new and what
:22:38. > :22:42.happened in Mosul of boards the attempt by this political entities.
:22:43. > :22:49.Would you like to see foreign boots on the ground in Iraq to try to stop
:22:50. > :22:53.the advance of ISIS? Definitely not. I'm not welcoming all in agreement
:22:54. > :23:01.that the Iraqi crisis is in need of more force. What we need is more
:23:02. > :23:07.wisdom. OK. Wrigley, could Iraq breakdown into a Shia part? ``
:23:08. > :23:13.briefly? An autonomous region in the north? Could it fragment, briefly?
:23:14. > :23:22.This could happen but it would be unfortunate for all in Iraqis. I
:23:23. > :23:25.won't hope to see that. Then, you think that in Iraq we could see
:23:26. > :23:32.sectarian bloodbath in the short term? We have seen some Shias in the
:23:33. > :23:37.country taking up arms. Could we see sectarianism blow out of proportion?
:23:38. > :23:48.Unfortunately, this is becoming quite possible. I am expecting also
:23:49. > :23:53.a severe and dramatic reaction from the extremists and ordinary people,
:23:54. > :23:59.who must take action to protect themselves. Yes, I am unfortunately
:24:00. > :24:03.expecting bloodshed and this is why I am urging the United Nations
:24:04. > :24:08.Security Council to step in and try to find a solution for my country.
:24:09. > :24:37.Tariq al`Hashimi, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:38. > :24:42.There was a real contrast with the weather through yesterday. A real
:24:43. > :24:43.cool, cloudy and disappointing day