:00:11. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk. More than 06 journalists have been killed in
:00:18. > :00:22.Syria's Civil War. Across the world, journalists have become target, as
:00:23. > :00:26.never before. Murdered. Kidnapped and in the case of three Al-Jazeera
:00:27. > :00:31.journalists in Egypt, locked up by the state for doing their jobs. My
:00:32. > :00:35.guest today is Anthony Loyd, the award-winning war correspondent of
:00:36. > :00:41.the times newspaper, who was shot and seriously injured in Syria last
:00:42. > :00:44.month. Is the fear factor forcing journalists to retreat from the
:00:45. > :01:17.front line? Anthony Loyd, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:18. > :01:23.You came back from your most crept reporting assignment in Syria,
:01:24. > :01:28.bearing scars, physical scars, mental scars as well. Are they
:01:29. > :01:32.healing right now? They are, I feel pretty good and pretty strong,
:01:33. > :01:36.considering what happened for the experience of being bound,
:01:37. > :01:43.blindfolded, beaten and shot. I feel quite strong on the back of it. You
:01:44. > :01:46.put it in a way so Blythly there, but for people who round the world
:01:47. > :01:50.who are not aware of what happened to you, we need to describe in some
:01:51. > :01:54.detail how it happened. You had been going to Syria I believe more than
:01:55. > :01:58.ten time, up to a dozen times since the start of the conflict there.
:01:59. > :02:05.What was different this time? Why did it go so badly wrong? This time
:02:06. > :02:11.it went bandly wrong for a reason that could have occurred on any of
:02:12. > :02:17.the dozen or 14 assign.s I have done in Syria, we were betrayed by
:02:18. > :02:23.someone we trusted, who decided at a point we still don't know, that we
:02:24. > :02:27.were no longer worth being his friendly disposition and we should
:02:28. > :02:32.be treated as a financial commodity. This is a rebel fighter? This is a
:02:33. > :02:35.rebel fighter. A medium level commander in a fairly small town in
:02:36. > :02:39.northern Syria, someone we had known for a long time over the course of
:02:40. > :02:42.the last two-and-a-half years, it wasn't a few chance meetings. I
:02:43. > :02:47.think I stayed with him probably four or five times in the last two
:02:48. > :02:53.years, for periods of up to five or six days. Jack Hill the from
:02:54. > :02:57.photographer staled with him too. Probably about three or four other
:02:58. > :03:01.times journalists or photographers had stayed with man Hakim. You
:03:02. > :03:06.didn't just know him, you trusted him. I wonder if you regarded him as
:03:07. > :03:11.a friend? In way, I would have described him as a friend, yes, I
:03:12. > :03:16.trusted him and he in his time was solicitor to us and kind to us. In
:03:17. > :03:22.the way of Islamic traditions in the Middle East. He was an excellent
:03:23. > :03:26.host, he looked after wassel. He took us off to the front line with
:03:27. > :03:32.his men. He was brave in the way he looked after us and would drive us
:03:33. > :03:36.across dangerous areas at night. He treated us very well. There was good
:03:37. > :03:38.reason on the experience of his relationship with us in
:03:39. > :03:45.two-and-a-half years to trust him. Then, back in May, just a few weeks
:03:46. > :03:49.ago, you had been on a what was a very dangerous assignment in Aleppo,
:03:50. > :03:52.dangerous because it's a war-torn city where the fighting continues,
:03:53. > :03:56.you had come out of the city, you had gone to this safe house, you
:03:57. > :04:04.thought, on your way into Turkey, at the end of your assignment, and you
:04:05. > :04:09.discovered the hardest way possible that this man had decided you were
:04:10. > :04:15.to become something to be profited from, but how did he do it? It was
:04:16. > :04:21.ironic, as he left Aleppo, we left it on a single road, under heavy
:04:22. > :04:25.fire, heavy direct fire which nearly took out my escort vehicle, with
:04:26. > :04:31.four fighters who who were looking after me, I was with Jack Hill. We
:04:32. > :04:39.drove on, out of Aleppo. By the time we cleared that road, he
:04:40. > :04:42.drove on, out of Aleppo. By the time tar fat for no other reason that to
:04:43. > :04:47.pay our respects to Hakim and to congratulate him on the recent birth
:04:48. > :04:51.of his latest child, his little girl. So that was the reason, it was
:04:52. > :04:56.a social reason to stop. He was going to escort you out They were
:04:57. > :05:01.going to escort us out. We stayed the night in one of his house, we
:05:02. > :05:05.dined with him, there was no indication, not a slightest pointer
:05:06. > :05:10.that anything was wrong. The next morning left at 8.30 in the morning,
:05:11. > :05:15.we asked him for escorts, because we were in a zone controlled by his
:05:16. > :05:22.unit or a unit he would have done, he had a small group of guys so we
:05:23. > :05:27.were given an escort, to do the final leg between the town and the
:05:28. > :05:31.Turkish border, a journey of perhaps 30 minutes. As we said goodbye to
:05:32. > :05:36.him, left with an escort vehicle up the front, about 15 minutes later,
:05:37. > :05:40.by which time to me the assignment was almost finished. The Turkish
:05:41. > :05:45.border was almost in sight, we went over the lip of a hill, and there,
:05:46. > :05:52.heading in the same direction but at a slow speed was a dark coloured BMW
:05:53. > :05:57.X 5 and everything about that vehicle, its speed, its position in
:05:58. > :06:02.the road, told me that we were just about to be hit by kidnap gangs.
:06:03. > :06:07.Which is the case, and to sort of telescope this story a bit, you were
:06:08. > :06:11.forced out of your vehicle, into another vehicle, you were taken to
:06:12. > :06:16.one and then a second sort of safe house, you were bound, ultimately, a
:06:17. > :06:23.couple of your colleagues escaped. Then you tried to run too, but you
:06:24. > :06:27.were then captured. There was a very violent and confused escape attempt.
:06:28. > :06:31.We had been separated as a group within a vehicle, two of us were in
:06:32. > :06:35.the boot and another two were in different parts of the vehicle. All
:06:36. > :06:40.of us bound, and blindfolded, in a lock up garage, that, which had at
:06:41. > :06:44.times one or two guards alongside the vehicle, who would thump the
:06:45. > :06:50.vehicle and rock it or occasionally reach in and strike us, just to keep
:06:51. > :06:55.us subjugated. At some point, the key figure here, our fixer, in the
:06:56. > :06:59.boot, noticed that the boot was open ha half an inch so we wouldn't
:07:00. > :07:04.suffocate. He managed, I don't know how, to slip out of his bonds, he
:07:05. > :07:11.knew as a Syrian he was likely to be killed later that night, being of no
:07:12. > :07:16.monetary value to the kidnappers, so he whispered his plan to Jack. They
:07:17. > :07:18.overpowered the guard, at which point a very confused escape
:07:19. > :07:23.attempt. They go off in one direction, I go off in another, over
:07:24. > :07:29.the roofs, ultimately, the two Syrian staff escaped. Jack Hill was
:07:30. > :07:34.recaptured by Hakim's men and I was recaptured too but not before I had
:07:35. > :07:39.seen from the roofs that Jack had been overpowered in street by Hakim,
:07:40. > :07:44.and his gang, and I could look down from the perspective of two storeys
:07:45. > :07:47.up on Hakim, the guy who hosted us the night before beating Jack Hill
:07:48. > :07:56.and he laid on the ground. Then he got do you eventually and he got do
:07:57. > :08:01.you with a weapon. He got to me, I knew but was advantaged because some
:08:02. > :08:06.locals saw us, there was no plan to escape, it happened. We hadn't
:08:07. > :08:10.communicated among ourself, so it is a confusing scenario, I am bound,
:08:11. > :08:16.running across the roofs. Local people had seen me. I am optimistic
:08:17. > :08:22.that would count to my vantage. I dropped down into a compound, get
:08:23. > :08:26.into a kitchen. I am trying to cut through the clamps with a knife
:08:27. > :08:31.between my teeth. I heard a door getting kicked in, a load of armed
:08:32. > :08:35.guards run in. They are Hakim's men, Hakim is in the street. He has a
:08:36. > :08:43.weapon. I am beaten. They walk me up to him I said "I thought you were
:08:44. > :08:48.our friend" and he pulled his gun and shot me. He pulled his gun and
:08:49. > :08:52.shot you. A man you had known for two-and-a-half year, you at that
:08:53. > :08:57.point thought you were going to die? Looking back, I can think that was a
:08:58. > :09:02.pretty bad moment, but at the time, the event horizon was so short, and
:09:03. > :09:07.I was so hyper adrenalised, that I was playing for the next second or
:09:08. > :09:11.two. By the time I realised he had his gun, he has already shot me. At
:09:12. > :09:16.which point I thought, well that was the double or quits moment, and I
:09:17. > :09:21.will probably get away with this now because he didn't shoot me in the
:09:22. > :09:25.head. He shot you in the lower leg, the ankle. Yes And you can
:09:26. > :09:32.thankfully still walk. I am very lucky. Both bullets went in slightly
:09:33. > :09:36.different directions, smashing up a bit but nothing too important. I
:09:37. > :09:40.have spoken to you before a number of years ago, you struck me as a
:09:41. > :09:45.journalist living on the edge. You have been even closer to the edge
:09:46. > :09:51.now. I just wonder, I began by asking you not just about physical
:09:52. > :09:56.wounds but mental wounds, how damaged have you been by what you
:09:57. > :10:00.experienced in Syria, mentally? I don't think I have been that
:10:01. > :10:05.damaged. We vexed the bad guy, we were deceived, we were bound, and
:10:06. > :10:09.blindfolded, we were not armed. Yet at the end of it, we were the ones
:10:10. > :10:14.who escaped, having identified that gang for what they were, a criminal
:10:15. > :10:19.kidnap gang, leaving them to soak in their own bath water of infamy in
:10:20. > :10:23.that part of northern Syria while we made good our escape. I feel pretty
:10:24. > :10:30.strong psychologically. Do you, the point of the story surely, is that
:10:31. > :10:33.entirely unconsciously you made a drastically bad judgment about this
:10:34. > :10:37.man Hakim, you know, you thought he was trustworthy and he wasn't, and
:10:38. > :10:41.it just raises all sorts of questions about whether journalists
:10:42. > :10:45.in Syria today can, however experienced they are, have any real
:10:46. > :10:51.idea of where the front lines are, who the guys they can trust are, it
:10:52. > :10:56.just seems impossible. No. I don't think that is right. Sure, the
:10:57. > :11:03.judgment was mine that we could trust Hakim, but betrayal is a
:11:04. > :11:09.characteristic that there is potential in any human relation she
:11:10. > :11:13.ship. It has in war. The prospect of betrayal is with the risks the same
:11:14. > :11:19.as getting shot, blown up, something as be natural as your fixer doesn't
:11:20. > :11:25.turn up on time. War is an extreme example, but betrayal, you know, is
:11:26. > :11:29.a potential eventuality. So I was right to judge Hakim logically on
:11:30. > :11:35.the basis of our relationship of two, two-and-a-half years. And right
:11:36. > :11:40.to trust him. As it happened, things had happened in his life, I don't
:11:41. > :11:44.know what they were... Did he try to contact you, in the weeks since this
:11:45. > :11:50.happened have you had any contact with him? There was one brief
:11:51. > :11:54.contact before I closed down the means of contact which was a
:11:55. > :11:59.slightly nonsensical tirade about 24 hours later, and threatening as
:12:00. > :12:04.well, saying don't mention my name or, he did try to say after, he said
:12:05. > :12:07.we were spies and he tried to say that after, because he would have
:12:08. > :12:11.to, that would have to be his justification to his own people
:12:12. > :12:17.about why he did that to us. How do you feel about him now? Hate? No,
:12:18. > :12:21.depend what kind of time of day you ask that question. I don't feel
:12:22. > :12:26.hugely well disposed to him or his gang, but on the other hand, while
:12:27. > :12:29.hugely well disposed to him or his we were his captives, the problem
:12:30. > :12:33.was ours, as soon as we went over the fulcrum point of escape and Iraq
:12:34. > :12:38.side Syria, the problem is their, him and his gang are an individual
:12:39. > :12:42.and a group who have a reputation for making extremely bad decisions
:12:43. > :12:46.and big mistakes, they are living in a Terry where there are serious
:12:47. > :12:51.consequences for those mistake, so the situation is theirs now, it is
:12:52. > :12:55.not mine, I am free. Let us talk noter about Syria and perhaps link
:12:56. > :12:59.it to what is happening in Iraq, right now we see that swathes of
:13:00. > :13:05.territory in Syria, perhaps even larger swathes of Terry in Iraq are
:13:06. > :13:11.in the hands of the most extreme -- Terry, from the so-called ISIS
:13:12. > :13:16.group, the Islamist state of Iraq, and they have made public their
:13:17. > :13:24.desire to target journalist, they see journalists as agents of the
:13:25. > :13:29.determined to get as close to the determined to get as close to the
:13:30. > :13:34.witness to what is happening in places like Syria and Iraq, do you
:13:35. > :13:37.see any possibility to go into areas, under the control
:13:38. > :13:43.see any possibility to go into No, not under the control of ISIS. I
:13:44. > :13:48.don't think, I don't think at all, I think that is, I have come close to
:13:49. > :13:52.having a big problem with ISIS, in the months before it was completely
:13:53. > :13:57.obvious who they were and what they were doing inside Syria. You have
:13:58. > :14:02.met some of them in Syria? Yes, You have come away from that convinced,
:14:03. > :14:05.you came away from it for a start which is perhaps miraculous in a
:14:06. > :14:09.way, but you came away convinced that if you were to try to establish
:14:10. > :14:15.any sort of journalistic contact with them, what, you would end up
:14:16. > :14:19.dead or kidnapped? Yes, ISIS don't believe in, they have no interest in
:14:20. > :14:22.journalists from democratic countries, coming to exercise their
:14:23. > :14:27.right to freedom of speech or anything like that, that is just not
:14:28. > :14:31.how they see the world. They see the States, the institutions, the
:14:32. > :14:37.Governments of democratic countries as rotten, and they see journalists
:14:38. > :14:42.as the agents of that rot, there is no desire from ISIS to have western
:14:43. > :14:46.journalist, along. They have their own media organisations, and they
:14:47. > :14:50.have no interest in western journalists coming along to report
:14:51. > :14:54.fairly on what they are doing. Given the fluidity of front lines and the
:14:55. > :14:59.increasing power they seem to be exercising, it raises the question
:15:00. > :15:03.of whether even for the, you know, the bravest courageous of war
:15:04. > :15:07.reporters, there are conflicts today, I am thinking of Syria and
:15:08. > :15:12.Iran, which are becoming almost unreportable. It is very very
:15:13. > :15:16.difficult. Iraq has been difficult for a long time. It became difficult
:15:17. > :15:20.quickly after the Americans invaded to work among local people there. I
:15:21. > :15:24.would say Syria is still just about possible, not to go into the areas
:15:25. > :15:28.ISIS are controlling. What happened to me was unfortunate, but you have
:15:29. > :15:33.to remember that by working war you are working in an environment where
:15:34. > :15:37.every day people round you are shot, abducted, beaten. It is possible and
:15:38. > :15:41.has always been so, that that might happen to a journalist, you can't
:15:42. > :15:57.exclude the possibility of that happening to you. Of course, you
:15:58. > :15:59.have to accept the risks are very high. A very brave Italian
:16:00. > :16:02.journalist said high. A very brave Italian
:16:03. > :16:08.journalist this recently, she said, if we journalists are around or not,
:16:09. > :16:11.Syrians see no difference. We have become the mirror and expression of
:16:12. > :16:18.the international community's cynicism on Syria. I understand what
:16:19. > :16:22.she is saying, but I don't think journalists should stop doing their
:16:23. > :16:24.work just because of someone's perception of their work. They
:16:25. > :16:32.should be true to their own integrity. We do our job not to
:16:33. > :16:36.affect change, but at its purist, to report. It is someone else's job if
:16:37. > :16:41.they are going to change the situation, the policy. We do our
:16:42. > :16:46.job, to report. Now there is a point at which that might not be possible,
:16:47. > :16:50.for example ISIS controlled territory. And there is a grey area
:16:51. > :16:59.where it may be possible but at high risk. I don't think that's true
:17:00. > :17:03.across the board, that perspective. I met people in Aleppo who were
:17:04. > :17:06.still happy to see me. There were rebel fighters who were not only
:17:07. > :17:10.happy to see me but they understand the need of having journalists. We
:17:11. > :17:17.can't just close down everybody's eyes on Syria by not reporting. If
:17:18. > :17:21.you believe it makes very little difference any more what you report
:17:22. > :17:23.and how much you bear witness, because the world is now familiar
:17:24. > :17:26.with the suffering of Syria, because the world is now familiar
:17:27. > :17:31.with the suffering and frankly adding one more element to the story
:17:32. > :17:34.may not make much difference at all. Human nature may suggest that if
:17:35. > :17:39.that is in your mind, it is hard to get jewels of ready to take the
:17:40. > :17:48.risks you have to take. I didn't find it too difficult. -- get
:17:49. > :17:54.yourself ready. Your own editor has said very publicly about whether he
:17:55. > :18:00.could let you go back again to Syria... He has committed a lot to
:18:01. > :18:04.Syria. Until this point. And he has seen one of his staff escaped death
:18:05. > :18:11.by that much. And another one was killed. Marie Colvin was killed in
:18:12. > :18:18.mutton. People like your boss or going to find it very hard to
:18:19. > :18:25.sanction your next trip to Syria. -- was killed in Homs. I would go back
:18:26. > :18:31.to Syria, but in practice it would be foolish with the gang still at
:18:32. > :18:36.large. In principle, I would go back. Things change in war,
:18:37. > :18:44.situations change, people get removed, disappear, go elsewhere. In
:18:45. > :18:53.essence, our job is to report. The necessity of bearing witness
:18:54. > :18:57.transcends the perspective of other people towards journalists. Until
:18:58. > :19:02.the point it becomes impossible. In Syria, it's not impossible still.
:19:03. > :19:07.There are still journalists there now. You have worked across the
:19:08. > :19:11.Middle East. I don't know if you have worked in Egypt. I lived there
:19:12. > :19:15.for three years as a foreign correspondent. I am amazed and
:19:16. > :19:19.horrified at what has happened to the three Al Jazeera journalists
:19:20. > :19:24.doing their jobs, two of them have seven-year sentences and the third
:19:25. > :19:29.man a 10-year sentence. It's horrifying. I just wonder whether
:19:30. > :19:32.you today in Egypt would confront the reality that if you try to talk
:19:33. > :19:37.to the Muslim brotherhood, you might well end up with a long jail term.
:19:38. > :19:44.Would you do it or would you self censor? Would you avoid that? I
:19:45. > :19:48.wouldn't self censor and avoid that. I would have to think for some time
:19:49. > :19:56.beforehand. It is a different set of worries. Peter Greste and his two Al
:19:57. > :20:01.Jazeera colleagues have been persecuted and jailed by a state.
:20:02. > :20:07.Doing their job. That said a message to journalists around the world. It
:20:08. > :20:11.is a whole set of different problems to what happens to me, I was taken
:20:12. > :20:15.down by a criminal gang that was an offshoot of a rebel organisation. I
:20:16. > :20:19.understand that but you strike me as a journalist who has a pretty black
:20:20. > :20:23.and white view of your desire to bear witness and I am just wondering
:20:24. > :20:28.whether, leaving aside the chaos that is Syria or Iraq today, but
:20:29. > :20:32.enter the world of Egypt where a state has sent a message to
:20:33. > :20:38.journalists saying, you abide by our rules, you play our game or we will
:20:39. > :20:43.imprison you. What would your response be that? My response would
:20:44. > :20:50.be to my editor that it would probably be easier to work in rebel
:20:51. > :20:53.areas of Syria planned to work in a state-controlled area where the
:20:54. > :20:58.state has sent a message as clearly as that. So you would not interview
:20:59. > :21:04.with the Muslim brotherhood right now? I think the example of what has
:21:05. > :21:09.happened to Peter Greste and his colleagues is an example which will
:21:10. > :21:15.require a lot of reflection for anybody thinking of going to Egypt.
:21:16. > :21:22.I haven't been asked to go... It's a difficult question to answer. I
:21:23. > :21:25.wonder, by getting quite personal with you, because you have written a
:21:26. > :21:31.lot about your motivations for journalism, and if your desire to be
:21:32. > :21:35.on the front line... You have talked about adrenaline, the desire to push
:21:36. > :21:38.your experience to the very edge and you have linked it to what was an
:21:39. > :21:42.addictive personality and that for a time as a young man you had problems
:21:43. > :21:48.with drink and drugs. How much have you changed since then? I think I
:21:49. > :21:54.have changed a lot. I have been a journalist for 21 years. Some of my
:21:55. > :21:58.motivations are the same. I would still say to anyone it's a very
:21:59. > :22:03.exciting job, but one gets more altruistic as one gets older. If I
:22:04. > :22:09.may say, you were quite narcissistic in your early days. Very. It was
:22:10. > :22:18.almost as much about you as it was to bearing witness. 21 years ago, I
:22:19. > :22:20.am 47 years old, one does learn humility and a bit
:22:21. > :22:27.am 47 years old, one does learn the way. I am very interested in the
:22:28. > :22:30.people on whom I report. What is interesting about that, many would
:22:31. > :22:35.say if you have spent 21 years seeing human nature at its worst,
:22:36. > :22:39.sometimes at its most depraved, the likelihood is that you would become,
:22:40. > :22:43.frankly, more cynical, and you are saying you have become more
:22:44. > :22:47.altruistic. Definitely, but the example of getting shot and beaten
:22:48. > :22:51.up and whatnot... There were a lot of decent people there that day, a
:22:52. > :22:58.lot of decent Syrians who were not only appalled at what happened to me
:22:59. > :23:04.but helped me. There were moments of humour and kindness. From Syrians.
:23:05. > :23:08.During some very extreme moments. I don't regard this as a wholly bad
:23:09. > :23:14.experience. It was one of those things that happened. It was pretty
:23:15. > :23:19.bleak. By the time you ended up as I did, naked wearing just handcuffs,
:23:20. > :23:24.covered in blood, badly beaten with two gunshot wounds, you are hardly
:23:25. > :23:30.thinking, this is a really smooth moving assignment. But there were
:23:31. > :23:33.also moments of kindness and humour and eventually it was Syrians who
:23:34. > :23:39.passed me across the border to Turkey. But you still have your
:23:40. > :23:42.medical boot on, still unable to walk properly. In your mind, you
:23:43. > :23:51.have no doubt that you will go back to those front lines and those
:23:52. > :23:58.conflicts? No doubt at all. Because? This is an eventuality I didn't seek
:23:59. > :24:02.or want, but I work in an environment where people get shot
:24:03. > :24:06.and beaten up everyday. I didn't want this, but I actually feel
:24:07. > :24:13.slightly advantaged by it. When I speak to people about jail, getting
:24:14. > :24:16.beaten, getting shot and whatnot, at least I can speak to people now with
:24:17. > :24:23.the empathy and understanding of knowing what it is like. Anthony
:24:24. > :24:25.Loyd, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much
:24:26. > :24:43.indeed. When Barbara and I
:24:44. > :24:45.started the Review, we were seeking to examine
:24:46. > :24:48.the workings and the truthfulness
:24:49. > :24:52.of establishments.