:00:00. > :00:14.outside London. Now on BBC News, it's time for
:00:15. > :00:17.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. The extremist group ISIS is expanding
:00:18. > :00:27.its foothold in Syria, after its recent gains in neighbouring Iraq.
:00:28. > :00:30.The first town it seized was Raqqa in northern Syria a year ago. It
:00:31. > :00:37.holds parts of Aleppo province in the north as well as more territory
:00:38. > :00:40.on the border with Iraq. ISIS is now engaging in battles with other rebel
:00:41. > :00:42.groups in Syria, splintering efforts by the opposition who now find
:00:43. > :00:45.themselves battling both ISIS forces and government troops. What does the
:00:46. > :00:55.advance of ISIS mean for moderate secular opposition groups inside
:00:56. > :00:59.Syria? My guest is Salih Muslim Mohammed, leader of Syrian Kurdish
:01:00. > :01:01.party the PYD, which is part of the National Coordination Body for
:01:02. > :01:01.Democratic Change, a secular, pro`democracy coalition inside
:01:02. > :01:42.Syria. Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What
:01:43. > :01:49.does the declaration of an Islamic state in Iraq and Syria by ISIS mean
:01:50. > :01:59.for Syria? It was created in Syria, actually, and I think that ISIS
:02:00. > :02:06.itself is just a tool that is being used. They started from Syria, got
:02:07. > :02:19.the power, and then we saw it extend into Iraq. You say they are being
:02:20. > :02:27.used as a tool. By whom? By those forces who have their interests in
:02:28. > :02:31.the Middle East and also by some sides in the Middle East themselves.
:02:32. > :02:40.Could you spell that out for us, please? LAUGHTER. You say that ISIS
:02:41. > :02:50.is the creation of some powers. Which ones? Powers with interest in
:02:51. > :02:56.the Middle East. Maybe members of NATO. Which country? Are you talking
:02:57. > :03:04.about Western nations? Members of NATO? Powerful nations in the Middle
:03:05. > :03:13.East? Yes, in what they are saying. For example, the US and the UK and
:03:14. > :03:17.France are involved in the changes from the Middle East since the
:03:18. > :03:21.beginning. Are you honestly saying that you think these Western powers
:03:22. > :03:31.you have just named are behind ISIS? Is that what you are saying? From
:03:32. > :03:33.the beginning, yes. Well. That is something that is not borne out by
:03:34. > :03:38.the kind of statements we have had from Western leaders. William Hague
:03:39. > :03:48.says that ISIS represents a threat to the UK as well as countries it
:03:49. > :03:52.operates in in the Middle East. ISIS was born between all of the
:03:53. > :03:58.extremist powers in the Middle East. They were supporting them. Maybe in
:03:59. > :04:03.Syria, Libya and others. But maybe they did not expect an organisation
:04:04. > :04:13.like ISIS before, the first time. But then things changed. ISIS
:04:14. > :04:19.itself, it has come from those extremist Muslims in Syria and the
:04:20. > :04:23.other countries. You are talking about ISIS, which is an offshoot of
:04:24. > :04:29.Al`Qaeda. And even Al`Qaeda's leader, Ayman al`Zawahiri, has
:04:30. > :04:38.described ISIS as to extreme. And they have said that they feel that
:04:39. > :04:43.they have a very strange interpretation of Islam. How can you
:04:44. > :04:47.then say in the same breath that an offshoot of Al`Qaeda deemed to
:04:48. > :04:54.extreme by Al`Qaeda is being backed by the West? Actually, Al`Qaeda and
:04:55. > :04:59.ISIS are just the name. Everybody has their own ISIS full job in the
:05:00. > :05:07.Syrian region, also, they have groups inside ISIS. And in other
:05:08. > :05:11.countries. Because of that, maybe many sides use ISIS for their own
:05:12. > :05:21.aims full of white back but the fact of the matter is, do you feel that
:05:22. > :05:25.ISIS is a threat to Syria? And you are a Syrian from the Kurdish ethnic
:05:26. > :05:34.group. How much of a threat does I suppose to Syria, whoever is backing
:05:35. > :05:37.it? Whoever they are now, they are a threat not just to the Kurdish
:05:38. > :05:46.people of Syria but all of the Middle East as well because we have
:05:47. > :05:55.told European countries many times that we are defending democracy in
:05:56. > :05:58.the Middle East, so we consider ourselves the first front of
:05:59. > :06:05.defending democracy. They are a danger for everybody. We have heard
:06:06. > :06:10.President Obama say he was making a request to Congress for $500 million
:06:11. > :06:15.and that perhaps this would be used to help Ulster what is known as the
:06:16. > :06:20.moderate, secular opposition forces inside Syria of whom your party, a
:06:21. > :06:28.Kurdish Syrian party, the PYD, is included. You believe in equality,
:06:29. > :06:33.your coleader is a woman. Is this the right approach? That Barack
:06:34. > :06:41.Obama is right to support movements like yours? It is not just the US
:06:42. > :06:47.but all the countries like Europe and so on, they should consider this
:06:48. > :06:51.way. In the PYD, we are fighting against ISIS for more than one year
:06:52. > :07:03.now and we were alone and nobody supported us. I was in Europe many
:07:04. > :07:09.times to say that ISIS was a danger for Europe as well but nobody
:07:10. > :07:14.listened. Now, are they listening? Now that you have this move by the
:07:15. > :07:18.Americans to try to perhaps bolster... I will say what Barack
:07:19. > :07:23.Obama said on the 29th of May. He says, as frustrating as it is, there
:07:24. > :07:28.are no easy answers, no military solution that can alleviate the
:07:29. > :07:33.suffering any time soon. But we want to offer support to those in the
:07:34. > :07:40.Syrian opposition who offer the best alternatives to terrorism and a
:07:41. > :07:47.dictator. I hope they will implement that. Until now, we were alone. And
:07:48. > :07:53.of course, we are ready to co`operate with anyone who wants to
:07:54. > :07:57.defend democracy. Not just the US but any country that wants to defend
:07:58. > :08:07.democracy. We can do this hand in hand and with cooperation. Is there
:08:08. > :08:11.still that danger that the Americans have consistently stated in the
:08:12. > :08:15.conflict in Syria, that if they do send weapons, they do not know who
:08:16. > :08:19.will end up having them and that they may fall into the hands of
:08:20. > :08:26.extremists rather than the moderate opposition? That has always been a
:08:27. > :08:29.deterrent. This is a big mistake. He said the weapons to whoever will use
:08:30. > :08:36.them. It has been difficult from the beginning. Not only weapons but
:08:37. > :08:42.humanitarian aid should be given to civilians. A lot of money from that
:08:43. > :08:51.aid went to buy weapons for those groups. That is the point, isn't it?
:08:52. > :08:56.It is difficult. The Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement on the
:08:57. > :09:00.30th of June, saying that if these additional $500 million are made
:09:01. > :09:04.available by the American Congress, to use their words, it will boost
:09:05. > :09:08.the terrorist caliphate. They say, we urge our partners in the
:09:09. > :09:11.international community not to take sides that lead to the build`up
:09:12. > :09:16.rather than the containment of the terrorist and extremist threat in a
:09:17. > :09:23.turbulent region such as the Middle East. I think they should be careful
:09:24. > :09:34.because... We have the Al`Nusra Front as well, and they call that a
:09:35. > :09:39.part of the Free Syria Army. If they are going to be supported... They
:09:40. > :09:45.are also an Islamist party but not as hard line. Is the Saudis. They
:09:46. > :09:51.can co`ordinate with Al`Qaeda and ISIS at any time. Not only the
:09:52. > :09:55.people but the idea, the organisation, the mentality, is
:09:56. > :10:04.against the people. Everybody should be very careful. Are you saying,
:10:05. > :10:09.then, that as a member of Syria's moderate and secular opposition, do
:10:10. > :10:14.you want help from the international community at this critical time in
:10:15. > :10:18.Syria, when ISIS is increasing its foothold in the country? Or do you
:10:19. > :10:25.agree there is a possibility that weapons and aid could fall into the
:10:26. > :10:33.wrong hands? We are supportive of these international forces
:10:34. > :10:36.diplomatically and politically and even by any means, we must
:10:37. > :10:42.co`operate because the danger is not only for Syria or the Kurdish
:10:43. > :10:47.people, it is for everybody. So we have to be united against this
:10:48. > :10:54.danger. Are you saying that international help is absolutely
:10:55. > :11:19.critical? Yes. Will you get the kind of help that you think you need? The
:11:20. > :11:22.problem is mainly ISIS and the others. It was a mistake by some to
:11:23. > :11:24.support them and they get bigger and bigger. And that has become a
:11:25. > :11:26.danger. So, we need international forces, where everybody, maybe
:11:27. > :11:30.regional organisations, will come together to stop it. Nobody seems to
:11:31. > :11:33.be pinning much hope on President Obama's support for a moderate
:11:34. > :11:39.opposition. The editor of one magazine said the solution was
:11:40. > :11:53.exerting massive pressure on a regime through supporting the
:11:54. > :11:57.opposition. Is that correct? They are slaughtering the people on the
:11:58. > :12:01.streets. It is dangerous. And ISIS is more dangerous for everybody. And
:12:02. > :12:07.they have spread. If you consider the regime, it is just the inside
:12:08. > :12:15.Syria. But ISIS has expanded. Yesterday, they want Iraq. The next
:12:16. > :12:21.day, they go to Lebanon, Jordan. Are you saying and let us be clear that
:12:22. > :12:27.ISIS is a bigger threat in Syria to the people of Syria than the
:12:28. > :12:33.government of Bashar al`Assad? No. I think Bashar al`Assad is maybe a
:12:34. > :12:39.danger for Syria only. For the Syrian people. But for all over the
:12:40. > :12:45.world and in the Middle East, ISIS is very dangerous. If that is the
:12:46. > :12:56.case, do you agree with Ryan Crocker, a former US diplomat, who
:12:57. > :13:05.has been aged format `` who has said, do we really want a country in
:13:06. > :13:08.the hands of Al`Qaeda instead of a solution that involves Bashar
:13:09. > :13:16.al`Assad? And to consider that as bad as he is, there is something
:13:17. > :13:20.worse? Bashar al`Assad is a dictator who has ruled Syria during very
:13:21. > :13:29.difficult times. But we should not `` connected the fate of `` we
:13:30. > :13:31.should not connect the fate of an entire people to one person. A
:13:32. > :13:41.transitional government. Whatever we agree on it... But as a precaution
:13:42. > :13:44.for leaving. And we will discuss... If you just said that ISIS
:13:45. > :13:49.represents a bigger threat to the region and globally than Bashar
:13:50. > :13:52.al`Assad does, the logic of what you have just said is what Ryan Crocker
:13:53. > :13:56.has stated, which is therefore, in Syria, it may be better for us to
:13:57. > :14:06.hang onto Bashar al`Assad because the alternative rightly was. ``
:14:07. > :14:13.might be worse. It is not one or the other. Both are not carry for the
:14:14. > :14:17.Syrian people. The Syrian people want to get rid of ISIS and also
:14:18. > :14:27.they want to get rid of Bashar al`Assad.
:14:28. > :14:32.Is the situation on the rise, you are putting the opposition in that
:14:33. > :14:36.position, you had to fight on both sides, for the government forces and
:14:37. > :14:42.the extremists of Isis? We have done it before. We were with the
:14:43. > :14:46.government at the beginning, now, we do not have the government on the
:14:47. > :14:53.borders, in the Kurdish areas. We have Isis. You mention the Kurdish
:14:54. > :15:00.areas, obviously, Syria's Kurds, that is about 2 million or 10% of
:15:01. > :15:05.the population. Your party, the PYD, established in 2003, the Democratic
:15:06. > :15:12.Union Party, it pretty much controls three unconnected areas in northern
:15:13. > :15:18.Syria. In November of last year, you declared it the administration, the
:15:19. > :15:24.transitional administration of Western Kurdistan, and so on. You
:15:25. > :15:30.have these three unconnected areas, 50 kilometres between them, what do
:15:31. > :15:35.you want to do with them? Would you like independence for them? ,
:15:36. > :15:42.actually, no. Firstly, we are not the PYD doing all of this. The
:15:43. > :15:47.components of the area, we have Syria, and Arabs sharing in this
:15:48. > :15:51.Administration. Maybe, the idea is from PYD. Because it is a
:15:52. > :15:59.predominantly Kurdish population? That is right. They established a
:16:00. > :16:05.council, a representative of the people, and they decided to
:16:06. > :16:10.establish it. Not me. You are the co` PYD leader. You are going along
:16:11. > :16:14.with it. That is right. You have courts, and police forces, and so
:16:15. > :16:18.on. That is right. That is in the area. The question is, what do you
:16:19. > :16:23.see as your vision for it, independence? Greater autonomy? Not
:16:24. > :16:28.at all. We said this from the beginning. We are a democratic
:16:29. > :16:35.force, we had to stay as a democracy. We are trying to
:16:36. > :16:42.establish a democratic Syria for the future. What we are doing is part of
:16:43. > :16:49.the solution at the end. And, keeping Syria and the people
:16:50. > :16:54.together. Until recently, we collected the opposition on one
:16:55. > :16:59.side, on one delegation. I guess the regime, at least, to sit with the
:17:00. > :17:05.regime... As they have done in general as well. You are talking
:17:06. > :17:10.about the paralysed peace process at the moment? In Geneva, with
:17:11. > :17:15.government spokespeople and delegates meeting with the umbrella
:17:16. > :17:19.opposition group. Sticking with your Kurdish areas, you run the People's
:17:20. > :17:22.protection unit, you even have your own force. I had to put this to you,
:17:23. > :17:27.and International Crisis Group report on the Middle East in May
:17:28. > :17:31.said that the fact that you have these forces is one of the reasons
:17:32. > :17:38.why you have managed to maintain control of these predominantly
:17:39. > :17:42.Kurdish areas. But the most important factor is your de facto
:17:43. > :17:46.alliance with the regime? Which handed territories over to you,
:17:47. > :17:50.while continuing to give support to those territories. You have heard
:17:51. > :17:56.these criticisms before, that in effect, the al`Assad regime has
:17:57. > :18:00.turned a blind eye and allowed you to run the territory. No, that is a
:18:01. > :18:08.mistake to say that. At the beginning, we were fighting, we are
:18:09. > :18:13.struggling against this regime, that was since 2004. Since the uprising.
:18:14. > :18:19.Everyone knows, and since then we are struggling against the regime.
:18:20. > :18:26.This is first, and secondly, in our areas, we support against the
:18:27. > :18:30.regime. We had casualties, and many people fighting `` we fought against
:18:31. > :18:35.the regime. Until a few days ago, we had clashes against the regime
:18:36. > :18:44.also. They are now attacking the situation because Isis is within our
:18:45. > :18:49.borders. We have a war, they have a war against us. They are attacking
:18:50. > :18:53.our areas. The regime is far away. Politically, the regime would not
:18:54. > :19:02.open another front for them. For this war. Especially, they have
:19:03. > :19:06.experience of the Kurdish people in 2004. You refute those criticisms
:19:07. > :19:11.that come from various quarters? Not only the International Crisis Group,
:19:12. > :19:16.that you have a de facto alliance? Yes. Now, your focus is on Isis,
:19:17. > :19:21.these three areas. They are fighting. They are the ones
:19:22. > :19:25.controlling these parts. This territory between your lands. They
:19:26. > :19:34.are attacking these areas. We are defending ourselves. Still looking
:19:35. > :19:41.at how you are running these dominant Kurdish areas in Syria,
:19:42. > :19:45.Human Rights Watch has also criticised what has been going on.
:19:46. > :19:50.The deputy Middle East director said that there were serious abuses
:19:51. > :19:53.taking place in these areas. Arbitrary arrests, abuse in
:19:54. > :19:58.detention, abductions and murders, and the use of children under the
:19:59. > :20:04.age of 18 as soldiers. They say "the PYD is firmly in charge in cohort of
:20:05. > :20:08.the abuse, and can do more in protecting the human rights of
:20:09. > :20:14.everyone in the areas it controls". What do you say to that? Yes, we
:20:15. > :20:21.have an official answer to the report of Human Rights Watch. I hope
:20:22. > :20:26.you have seen it. Anyway, we accept our mistakes. And now, what we are
:20:27. > :20:32.doing, we are trying to build the democracy in our areas. And defend
:20:33. > :20:39.these areas against Isis from the others. You try to make sure any
:20:40. > :20:51.human rights abuses do not take place. In the three areas, including
:20:52. > :20:54.territory along the Turkish border. How many people are in this
:20:55. > :20:59.territory that you control? You mention 2 million, I don't agree
:21:00. > :21:04.with you, I think about 3 million. We also have 500,000 people
:21:05. > :21:12.displaced from other areas. We are sharing everything. Sharing
:21:13. > :21:18.everything with them. 10% of the population approximately, we can
:21:19. > :21:22.argue figures. OK. It is about 10% of the Syrian population. I want to
:21:23. > :21:27.look at the wider Kurdish picture, now that the president of the
:21:28. > :21:33.Kurdish regional autonomous area in northern Iraq has said what has gone
:21:34. > :21:38.on in Iraq over the fast `` over the past few weeks means that Iraq is
:21:39. > :21:42.effectively partitioned and he will therefore press for a referendum on
:21:43. > :21:47.independence in a few months. He intends to hold it then. How far
:21:48. > :21:51.will that embolden other Kurds in the region, like you, to seek
:21:52. > :22:04.greater autonomy or even independence? I think the idea of
:22:05. > :22:11.him belongs to one nation, to save different opinions, for the future,
:22:12. > :22:15.and diffuse what is going on. We think independence is not the
:22:16. > :22:18.solution for the area, and for the Kurdish people at this moment.
:22:19. > :22:21.Perhaps in the future, we don't know what will happen. At this time, it
:22:22. > :22:28.isn't convenient for the Kurdish people. We are looking for self
:22:29. > :22:33.administration rules. We are not going to change any borders between
:22:34. > :22:40.those countries. Of course, the Kurds should be united. They speak
:22:41. > :22:46.for everybody, and especially, they are targeting the Kurdish people.
:22:47. > :22:49.Including in South Kurdistan. Because of that, the Kurdish people
:22:50. > :22:53.should be united to defend themselves. All Kurdish people,
:22:54. > :22:59.looking at how you are distributed across the Middle East, over 7
:23:00. > :23:04.million in Iraq, 7.7 in Iran, 18 million Kurds in Turkey, and as we
:23:05. > :23:09.say, about 10% of the population, around 2 million, in Syria. The
:23:10. > :23:12.professor of Middle Eastern studies at the London School of economics
:23:13. > :23:16.said that it was too early to talk about the emergence of a greater
:23:17. > :23:22.Kurdistan, and imagined community of Kurds resonates deeply among Kurds
:23:23. > :23:26.among Syria, Kurdistan, Iran and Iraq. Kurdistan is not a dream but
:23:27. > :23:33.becoming a reality. When will we see this? With this idea, I think for
:23:34. > :23:39.everyone, we should be clear. All of the parts of Kurdistan, they should
:23:40. > :23:44.have their own rights in their own country which they belong in. In
:23:45. > :23:52.Turkey, they should have issues with their problems with Turkey and Iraq,
:23:53. > :23:58.and in Syria... So everybody does the same thing? Yes, it is not a
:23:59. > :24:01.bigger Kurdistan. It is the democratic rights for the people.
:24:02. > :24:05.Salih Muslim Mohammed, thank you very much for coming HARDtalk. ``
:24:06. > :24:31.for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. Hello again, good morning, warmer
:24:32. > :24:35.weather is on the way for many of us today, we are seeing some changes
:24:36. > :24:39.coming in from the north`west, you can see it clearly on the satellite
:24:40. > :24:43.picture, this cloud comes in from the Atlantic. Looking worse than it
:24:44. > :24:46.is, a lot of it is high cloud spilling southwards. It will mainly
:24:47. > :24:47.affect Scotland and Northern