:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Tim Franks. Most of us probably do not
:00:18. > :00:22.associate local government with racing pulses and grave danger, but
:00:23. > :00:27.few local government jobs are like the Mayor of Mogadishu 's. Mohamoud
:00:28. > :00:32.Nur had that post for more than three years, trying to improve life
:00:33. > :00:35.in one of the most violent and corrupt and rundown capital cities
:00:36. > :00:41.in the world. So, what persuaded him to leave home life in London to take
:00:42. > :00:43.up the post, with the benefit of distance now, what hope does he hold
:00:44. > :01:17.out for Somalia? Mohamoud Nur, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:18. > :01:24.Let me take you back to 2010, you are at home in London. You are
:01:25. > :01:30.helping to run, or, you own an Internet cafe, you are also involved
:01:31. > :01:36.in a Somali group, and the president of Somalia calls you and asks you to
:01:37. > :01:40.be the Mayor of Mogadishu? Why did he choose you? Well, he chose me
:01:41. > :01:53.because I `` he knows what I did, when I was trying to dislocate icky
:01:54. > :01:58.`` Ethiopian application in Somalia. I was one of the key organisers, I
:01:59. > :02:06.was responsible, all of the world at the time, the Alliance consisted of
:02:07. > :02:13.Somalia was all over the world. And, parliamentarians who refused to
:02:14. > :02:21.accept the occupation of Ethiopia. And, the Islamic court, I was key in
:02:22. > :02:25.that. He knew what I could do. It would be perfect for me to work in
:02:26. > :02:29.Mogadishu. Well, perfect, in the sense that you are interested in
:02:30. > :02:33.Somali politics. I guess that you also had to take account of the fact
:02:34. > :02:39.that you had a wife, you had six children. You had a business. Didn't
:02:40. > :02:44.you think that this perhaps may not be the job for you? Actually, I
:02:45. > :02:49.refused to times, I rejected the proposal three times, they sent me
:02:50. > :02:52.individuals to convince me to take the job, I called my brothers, I
:02:53. > :02:57.have four of them in different parts of the world. We met up and
:02:58. > :03:01.discussed whether it was wise to take the job or not. We agreed that
:03:02. > :03:05.I should not take it, I discussed it with my wife, we agreed that I
:03:06. > :03:11.should not take it. Later, at some time, the pressure was too hard.
:03:12. > :03:16.Friends convinced me that I should do something. So, you went without
:03:17. > :03:23.your family, this was late 2010, what sort of place did you find?
:03:24. > :03:29.Well, it was not a city. It was an instruction, dark, dirty, a filthy
:03:30. > :03:35.city. People were not moving after 5pm, there were no lights. The
:03:36. > :03:40.filth, the garbage, it accumulated all over the place. And, nobody was
:03:41. > :03:43.taking care of it, not for the last two years. You couldn't call it a
:03:44. > :03:49.city at the time. It was a death city, like that. It was also a place
:03:50. > :03:53.that did not only have a bit of rubbish and street lighting that was
:03:54. > :04:00.bad, it was also extremely violent? Absolutely, yes. At that time, the
:04:01. > :04:04.government in Mogadishu consisted of 17 districts, the government was in
:04:05. > :04:08.control of five, the rest was in the hands of al`Shabab. You could tell,
:04:09. > :04:13.in the hotel I was staying in, there was about 300 metres away `` they
:04:14. > :04:17.were about 300 metres away. If they fired, they could hit someone in the
:04:18. > :04:25.hotel. How did you get around the city as the matter? I was born to be
:04:26. > :04:29.an activist, I was a government support, not depending on the
:04:30. > :04:32.resources of the government. I was depending on mobilising people. I
:04:33. > :04:39.saw that al`Shabab were controlling the media completely. `` for that
:04:40. > :04:45.matter. Even the president was not able to respond, everyone was
:04:46. > :04:49.afraid, is a direct attack from al`Shabab. Then, I remembered on the
:04:50. > :04:54.first day, I organised a rally against al`Shabab. When I spoke
:04:55. > :04:57.about al`Shabab and the atrocities they were committing, the Minister
:04:58. > :05:02.of formation called me, he was a friend from London. He said, you are
:05:03. > :05:06.putting yourself on the spot and in a dangerous position. You know, you
:05:07. > :05:11.should not do that. I said, well, it would be better for them to kill me
:05:12. > :05:16.when I am fighting, rather than to kill me while I am afraid of them.
:05:17. > :05:26.Did they threaten you directly? Many times. Many times they attempted to
:05:27. > :05:32.exploit my car. So, three times... Twice I wasn't in it, and then the
:05:33. > :05:41.car exploded when I was far away. I knew that. The day I die, nobody can
:05:42. > :05:47.bring it back. That is my conviction. I often hear devout
:05:48. > :05:55.Muslims saying that sort of thing, that they are fatalistic about the
:05:56. > :05:59.day they die. I returned what I said before, you are a husband, a
:06:00. > :06:06.father... You must have thought, you have a choice here? Do I really want
:06:07. > :06:10.to do this? If I don't do it, who will? For example, I'm not expecting
:06:11. > :06:14.people to fix the country. I have to play my part, I remember when I
:06:15. > :06:22.decided to take the job, called my wife and said, look, I will take it,
:06:23. > :06:26.in way. You may hear that I have been assassinated a number of times
:06:27. > :06:29.`` anyway. You have to prepare yourselves on the children that way.
:06:30. > :06:35.I never put in my mind that I will come out of any life with this job.
:06:36. > :06:41.I never expected it. When I go to do my work, I don't know if I come back
:06:42. > :06:47.or not. There was one street that I came down, there was a bus. And five
:06:48. > :06:51.officials have been assassinated. There's go into the business of
:06:52. > :06:56.local government, when you arrived, as the mayor, what was your
:06:57. > :07:08.operating budget? Nothing. There was no budget. There were $725 in the
:07:09. > :07:18.account. `` $125? $125? Not $125,000? Yes. They used to work
:07:19. > :07:25.this place. But, there was no work at all. There was no willpower,
:07:26. > :07:32.nothing at all. It was a completely deserted area. Nothing to pay
:07:33. > :07:37.salaries? Nothing. So, I understand that you negotiated an income from
:07:38. > :07:41.the ports. And with that, what did you manage to do? One of the
:07:42. > :07:45.conditions with the job, I said to the President that I would not take
:07:46. > :07:51.direct responsibility, I have to have a budget I can work with. And,
:07:52. > :07:54.I suggested that I could get a percentage of the revenue from the
:07:55. > :08:00.sea port. The president, the Prime Minister, they accepted that. They
:08:01. > :08:06.gave 15% of the region, and then that money comes after four months.
:08:07. > :08:13.They promised they would give me $100,000 to start, that came in
:08:14. > :08:22.instalments, $30,000, then 1000, then $50,000. I negotiated with
:08:23. > :08:24.public transport owners and co`operatives and Disney's
:08:25. > :08:31.individuals. Eventually, we would get money. `` and business
:08:32. > :08:36.individuals. Then, we could get the fuel, and I would pay back some
:08:37. > :08:41.time. With the money and the income, you manage to do things like get
:08:42. > :08:45.rubbish collections, street lighting... All of that is important
:08:46. > :08:51.in local government. But you are dealing with a place that is awash
:08:52. > :08:56.with guns, extremely violent, extremely dangerous. Dare I say it,
:08:57. > :09:00.you were concentrating? You may not have been responsible for security
:09:01. > :09:05.in Mogadishu, but you were concentrating on the bits on the
:09:06. > :09:10.side? It was rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? This was
:09:11. > :09:17.windowdressing? Yes. The city was very dangerous. It was challenging.
:09:18. > :09:29.In the terms that you can tell, but it was my job to make those five
:09:30. > :09:36.districts so far, no one was taking responsibility of doing that. ``
:09:37. > :09:42.safer. I had a meeting with the five district commissioners, and I got 15
:09:43. > :09:52.people from each district to collect information and to report if
:09:53. > :09:58.al`Shabab whether or not. I was paying security, I spent a lot of
:09:59. > :10:04.money there, it has improved. In three periods of that time, I had to
:10:05. > :10:07.remove garbage from the city, then put lights up, and improve the
:10:08. > :10:12.security of the districts. You had strong things to say about security,
:10:13. > :10:18.earlier in the year, there were bombings in the capital, and
:10:19. > :10:23.afterwards you said of them, you were surprised that al`Shabab
:10:24. > :10:29.members were arrested, they should be eliminated on the spot, this was
:10:30. > :10:33.after they focused on government officials. They should be stoned to
:10:34. > :10:38.death. This group, they are ruthless. That is the reason for
:10:39. > :10:46.extrajudicial killings? It isn't, for example, if you spot al`Shabab
:10:47. > :10:50.in action, fighting, shooting, then, you shoot them. That's what I'm
:10:51. > :10:56.saying. You should them. Don't capture them, they will kill another
:10:57. > :11:01.person. Do what they are. If someone is involved in a firefight, that's
:11:02. > :11:04.one thing, but you are talking about al`Shabab members in a general way.
:11:05. > :11:11.Firstly, it is very difficult to spot. Who is al`Shabab, and who
:11:12. > :11:15.isn't. Secondly, if someone is not firing a gun, how can you say they
:11:16. > :11:21.deserved to die? They deserve to die because they kill innocent
:11:22. > :11:24.civilians. They kill doctors, the military, civilians, they don't
:11:25. > :11:31.discriminate women and children from others. They do something, and the
:11:32. > :11:35.only way you can manage it, I know that you are in a European
:11:36. > :11:39.environment, and you vote in a European environment, but here, we
:11:40. > :11:46.have people killing innocent civilians, killing soft targets, the
:11:47. > :11:50.mosque, the markets, hotels. And on the people, they attack them. They
:11:51. > :11:54.don't differentiate. You are inciting the public to go after
:11:55. > :12:01.these people? Mobs should stone them to death? The reason Al`Shabab get
:12:02. > :12:06.out is because the people go against them? It was when the African union
:12:07. > :12:11.troops went after them? Not only that, but they realised it was a
:12:12. > :12:16.hostile environment, before, it was a fish in the sea, but when people
:12:17. > :12:22.went against them, and informed police or security, then, they were
:12:23. > :12:26.not able to stay. It is one thing to oppose people, it is one thing to
:12:27. > :12:31.inform on militants, but another to say that these people should be
:12:32. > :12:34.killed on the spot? These people are killing innocent civilians, they
:12:35. > :12:40.deserve to die as they are killing innocent civilians. Do you think
:12:41. > :12:49.that, in your time in Mogadishu, it became a safer city? Yes. Despite
:12:50. > :12:56.all of the evidence to the contrary? It became a relatively safer city, I
:12:57. > :13:00.have to say relatively, it improved every aspect of the city. It
:13:01. > :13:06.improved it businesswise, development, that improved. It
:13:07. > :13:10.became cleaner, lighter, people came back, the expectations of people
:13:11. > :13:15.were high. It is not easy, it was, not only the material, but we were
:13:16. > :13:20.fighting psychologically to change the minds of the people, and the
:13:21. > :13:24.mindset of the people cannot change without showing some facts. Why do
:13:25. > :13:31.you think it is then that al`Shabab seem able to launch attacks closer
:13:32. > :13:37.and closer to high`value targets in Mogadishu? Seemingly, at will?
:13:38. > :13:43.Because our security and solutions are not strong enough. The reason
:13:44. > :13:50.for that is what? The government had not put enough time and effort to
:13:51. > :13:54.build stronger institutions. They are the ones that do something. It
:13:55. > :14:00.is not individuals, but they can do something, but it is limited. The
:14:01. > :14:03.solution, that is the police, in those institutions, and then they
:14:04. > :14:10.can do something. How would you describe it? Is it infiltration by
:14:11. > :14:23.al`Shabab? Corruption? A callous lack of responsibility, a lack of
:14:24. > :14:29.confusion... That is all included. How do you stop al`Shabab in the
:14:30. > :14:36.long`term? Two things. They are praying and fighting without reason.
:14:37. > :14:41.We have to do something, we have to open opportunities for them, create
:14:42. > :14:44.jobs and training, these things. And then remove the young people. They
:14:45. > :14:49.are the ones committing atrocities. Remove that, and drive the pool that
:14:50. > :14:55.they are recruiting. The other big group, the guys, they are not ready
:14:56. > :15:00.to die. They won't do it. If you drive the pool that they are
:15:01. > :15:08.recruiting, then, they will not fight. What about driving them into
:15:09. > :15:12.a negotiation zone? Peace talks? They are not overwhelmingly foreign
:15:13. > :15:17.fighters in al`Shabab, it is a Somali movement essentially? It is
:15:18. > :15:20.certainly within Somalia. Don't the government of Somalia need, in the
:15:21. > :15:35.end, to talk to them? But these people are not wanting a
:15:36. > :15:39.political solution. They are dreaming to change it to an Islamic
:15:40. > :15:44.state. They want to change America and China to Islamic states. You
:15:45. > :15:50.think they have global ambitions? Yes. Their ambition is out of
:15:51. > :15:56.Somalia, so they won't accept it. The best way to deal it... There are
:15:57. > :16:01.three groups. The top group is no more than ten. The middle group are
:16:02. > :16:07.footsoldiers. We have to remove the footsoldiers. It has to be that
:16:08. > :16:11.easy. Some people I've been talking to in the run`up to this interview
:16:12. > :16:18.have said that part of the inherent problem with Somalia is that it is
:16:19. > :16:24.not, sadly, condition for statehood. It doesn't have a long history of a
:16:25. > :16:30.strong state, either from before independence or after independence.
:16:31. > :16:36.Inevitably, what is going to have to happen in Somalia is that there be a
:16:37. > :16:40.decentralisation of power. Already the government doesn't run much
:16:41. > :16:44.beyond Mogadishu and there has to be, even if people like you don't
:16:45. > :16:51.like it, more of a reliance on clans to govern Somalia. What would you
:16:52. > :16:56.say to that? The UK used to be a clan system before. Scotland was
:16:57. > :17:01.divided into clans, Wales was divided into clans, the English were
:17:02. > :17:06.clans. They came out and made a statehood. All the Europeans were
:17:07. > :17:12.like that. All other countries were like that. We are no different. You
:17:13. > :17:19.don't have an inherent problem with a clan `based system? No. The
:17:20. > :17:27.problem is that the leadership created enemies amongst the Somalian
:17:28. > :17:31.clans. Politicians created these conflicts. If we find good
:17:32. > :17:38.leadership, fair leadership, a leader who can lead the people, then
:17:39. > :17:43.I think all of these clans can be brought together. You were quoted a
:17:44. > :17:48.few years ago in an interview with a Kenyan writer saying, I am a
:17:49. > :17:54.self`made man and have no sympathy for cronies. It sounds like you've
:17:55. > :18:03.developed your views? `` for clanism. Yes, I grew up in and
:18:04. > :18:06.government institution. `` in a government. I don't have any
:18:07. > :18:10.sympathy is with any clans. But you say they could have a role but as
:18:11. > :18:16.long as they aren't set against each other? Yes. Can you explain to me
:18:17. > :18:22.why you were sacked earlier this year? You have to understand, the
:18:23. > :18:26.former person who appointed me, this is a new person with his own team,
:18:27. > :18:35.maybe he wanted a person from his team. Did you ask why? I didn't.
:18:36. > :18:39.Really? He rang you up and said, you are sacked, you didn't ask why?
:18:40. > :18:43.Merry Mac he called me and said, I want to be a member of the Cabinet.
:18:44. > :18:54.I said, in what capacity? Is a minister. I said, sorry, I won't be
:18:55. > :18:59.a minister. Why? I don't want it. I explained that the Cabinet, the way
:19:00. > :19:06.it functions, I can't do anything. Forgive me for asking you the same
:19:07. > :19:16.question again but why not? I have a lot of initiatives. But when you are
:19:17. > :19:20.in a Cabinet in Somalia, a cabinet minister does not have his own
:19:21. > :19:25.ministry. It sounds like you are a team player. You like being in
:19:26. > :19:29.charge of your own area? I have been in Somali politics for many years. I
:19:30. > :19:33.have worked with five prime ministers. I know what's going on. I
:19:34. > :19:38.know I can't do anything in the Cabinet. In the Constitution, what
:19:39. > :19:41.is written is the minister will do what the minister tells him to do.
:19:42. > :19:48.What will happen if the minister is ignorant? That's what I mean about
:19:49. > :19:49.being a team player. You advice, don't you? Was it
:19:50. > :19:56.the fact that you don't have a high regard for this president? No. I
:19:57. > :20:05.have a high regard for the president. But he did not give me
:20:06. > :20:11.proper justification, why he believed me of my position. He gave
:20:12. > :20:15.in a recent? So you have a high regard for him but he didn't have a
:20:16. > :20:22.high regard for you? It's up to him. I can't speak for him. Do you agree
:20:23. > :20:26.with the view of the US director of national intelligence, who earlier
:20:27. > :20:31.this year described this Somali government as being beset by
:20:32. > :20:34.persistent political infighting, weak leadership from the president
:20:35. > :20:41.and ill`equipped government institutions? I agree on two
:20:42. > :20:45.points. Weak institutions and infighting, I agree with that. I
:20:46. > :20:50.don't know about the leadership. He must have a view. You saw it close
:20:51. > :20:55.up. `` you must have. I don't want to criticise the government was I
:20:56. > :21:01.was in it. You are no longer in it. People are very interested to know
:21:02. > :21:07.what somebody on the inside would think about the state of leadership
:21:08. > :21:10.in Somalia. If there are weak institutions and if there is
:21:11. > :21:15.political infighting, what's that mean? They are lacking someone who
:21:16. > :21:22.can create a coherent team. That's what's missing. So, the president
:21:23. > :21:28.isn't doing a good job? I cannot... I won't say that. But it is the
:21:29. > :21:32.clear inference? You can extract from that whatever message you want.
:21:33. > :21:39.Do you have presidential ambitions? Well, I am a Somali national, I have
:21:40. > :21:43.the right to have an ambition and I have an ambition but I don't know
:21:44. > :21:46.where that ambition will take in. That sounds like you are thinking
:21:47. > :21:52.seriously about running for president in 2016.
:21:53. > :21:57.I wouldn't say that but I have an ambition to fix this country and I
:21:58. > :22:03.believe... How do you think you can do that? I can do that if I find
:22:04. > :22:09.people who can work with us, but I can work with, if I find people who
:22:10. > :22:14.have the same strategy and mission, the problem is this Cabinet. They
:22:15. > :22:20.have the same vision. Each one is working in a different direction.
:22:21. > :22:26.There is no coherent direction. AU talking to people about a political
:22:27. > :22:30.movement? A political party? Yes. I'm here in London, I went to
:22:31. > :22:34.Toronto, I had a meeting with the Somali community in Toronto, I went
:22:35. > :22:39.to Minneapolis, I had a meeting with the Somali community. I'm going back
:22:40. > :22:44.to Mogadishu. I'm speaking to people. I want to fix this country.
:22:45. > :22:52.You think you can do that? Given how deep the problems are, violence,
:22:53. > :22:56.come `` corruption, poverty. You spent three and a half years trying
:22:57. > :23:01.to deal with it. Maybe made a little bit of progress. Huge amount still
:23:02. > :23:08.to do. You think you can do it? Yes, I believe I can do it. One of
:23:09. > :23:15.the main problems that the Somali government didn't make progress in
:23:16. > :23:22.in 2004 is better to build a strong constitution. `` institutions. But
:23:23. > :23:25.it also cultures. It's a culture of violence, a culture of
:23:26. > :23:35.fundamentalist Islamist, a culture of corruption. `` Islamism. But
:23:36. > :23:39.accept culture of corruption but Somalis are not fundamentalist. This
:23:40. > :23:50.is a foreign idea that came to Somalia in 1989. So I can't accept
:23:51. > :23:55.that. We can still build a nation together. Corruption, yes, that's
:23:56. > :23:59.one of the problems that hampers the development of Somalia. What does
:24:00. > :24:06.your wife think about you becoming president of Somalia? She don't
:24:07. > :24:10.like. We try to persuade her? If I decide to do that I will convince
:24:11. > :24:15.her. The same as when I became mayor, she didn't like it. My
:24:16. > :24:19.brothers were against it. But when I look through a small window, I feel
:24:20. > :24:22.a need to something, I may change something. Thank you for being on
:24:23. > :24:52.HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It's likely to be the hottest day of
:24:53. > :24:56.the year so far, with temperatures expected to reach 27 Celsius later
:24:57. > :24:58.this afternoon. Those high temperatures across southern and
:24:59. > :25:00.eastern parts of England.