:00:00. > :00:17.more rockets have been launched by Hamas. Now on BBC News, it's time
:00:18. > :00:24.for HardTalk. Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. It is out
:00:25. > :00:27.with the old and in with the new at the European Union as EU member
:00:28. > :00:29.states conduct the usual bout of horse trading following elections
:00:30. > :00:32.for the European Parliament. They are selecting a new set of
:00:33. > :00:35.officials, including the key post of Commission President. The choice of
:00:36. > :00:38.EU insider Jean`Claude Juncker has led to a bitter and public row
:00:39. > :00:43.between the UK and other member states. How far has this damaged the
:00:44. > :00:48.reputation of the EU? And what does it tell us about the future
:00:49. > :00:50.direction of the European Union? My guest today is one of the EU's most
:00:51. > :01:06.experienced politicians, Sweden's Foreign Minister, Carl Bildt.
:01:07. > :01:13.Carl Bildt, welcome to HARDtalk. Thanks very much. New Commission
:01:14. > :01:18.being chosen to take over later this year, is there a clear direction for
:01:19. > :01:21.the EU, though? I think there's a clear direction and that will be set
:01:22. > :01:25.more firmly in the process that we are now in the middle of. What is
:01:26. > :01:29.not really catching the headlines over the last few weeks is the heads
:01:30. > :01:33.of states of goverments have certain priorities for the Union in the next
:01:34. > :01:36.five years. That is the important thing, a lot of the media is centred
:01:37. > :01:41.on personalities but there is a process underway considering
:01:42. > :01:48.policies. We do face major policy challenges in Europe. You need to
:01:49. > :01:51.connect with the citizens. Italy has just taken over the rotating
:01:52. > :01:55.presidency of the EU and its Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi, is quoted in
:01:56. > :01:58.the press as saying he is fed up with the EU saying acting like an
:01:59. > :02:05.old, boring aunt and he wants the EU to have a soul as well as rules.
:02:06. > :02:11.Among your strategic priorities, have you got some soul? I hope we've
:02:12. > :02:14.got some soul but I am more concerned, with due respect to
:02:15. > :02:18.Italy, but I am more concerned about results. You can talk about souls
:02:19. > :02:20.and feelings and emotions but the people of Europe want results coming
:02:21. > :02:27.out of European integration and cooperation. We face major
:02:28. > :02:33.challenges. We know that the nation states are too small to master those
:02:34. > :02:37.challenges by themselves. We must work together. But the workshop is
:02:38. > :02:40.not just a process and personalities and all that, it is the ability to
:02:41. > :02:47.produce policies that affect the outcome of the lives of our nations
:02:48. > :02:53.and our citizens. That's a fairly tall order. Do you accept that this
:02:54. > :02:57.is really... It has been a difficult time for the EU, the pro` EU parties
:02:58. > :02:59.do have a majority in the parliament, but nevertheless, we saw
:03:00. > :03:02.a rise in the Eurosceptic protest vote, and particularly in the UK
:03:03. > :03:05.with UKIP, the UK Independence Party, and in France, with the
:03:06. > :03:08.National Front, to the extent that the Prime Minister there, Manuel
:03:09. > :03:10.Valls, said that the parliamentary election result was a shock and
:03:11. > :03:13.earthquake that all of Europe's leadership must respond to. Are they
:03:14. > :03:31.listening, do they really acknowledge the scale of what
:03:32. > :03:34.happened? I hope that we all do. We need to acknowledge that national
:03:35. > :03:36.election results are affected by national factors, the French
:03:37. > :03:38.election result can't be explained without looking at the national
:03:39. > :03:42.politics and national problems of France, and the same to a certain
:03:43. > :03:46.extent in the UK. That being said, we are in the process where a lot of
:03:47. > :03:52.people asking where are we heading, what have you done, what can Europe
:03:53. > :03:55.give? But in addition we are in this always somewhat messy process every
:03:56. > :04:02.five years of selecting the key personalities in setting up European
:04:03. > :04:08.institutions. We are in a somewhat difficult process, that's obvious.
:04:09. > :04:11.You've heard that lesson. We saw the jump from 31 to 48 in Eurosceptic
:04:12. > :04:16.members of the European Parliament from 2009, the last election, that
:04:17. > :04:22.is accepted? I think when you look at France, it is national reasons to
:04:23. > :04:24.a large extent. That being said, any election, any democratic election in
:04:25. > :04:27.any country, certainly in the EU, does send a message and it's
:04:28. > :04:32.important for the politicians to listen. The message is we want a
:04:33. > :04:37.Europe that delivers results, results that are relevant to us.
:04:38. > :04:41.When you were Prime Minister in Sweden, you signed the treaty that
:04:42. > :04:52.allowed Sweden to join the EU in 1994. You're recognised as an EU
:04:53. > :04:55.enthusiast. What would you, Carl Bildt, say to EU citizens who
:04:56. > :04:58.perhaps have lost a bit of faith in the European project? How best can
:04:59. > :05:02.that enthusiasm be captured? If we look at the 20`year record of
:05:03. > :05:05.Sweden, and I had to do that the other day, looking at the figures
:05:06. > :05:08.and estimates we did at that time, have we delivered on those? We have
:05:09. > :05:12.had better economic development than we thought. We have had better
:05:13. > :05:15.development of Europe as a whole in terms of peace, stability and
:05:16. > :05:18.security than I thought at the time due to the single market and
:05:19. > :05:24.enlargement and other factors. For quite some time it was spectacularly
:05:25. > :05:27.good decades for Europe. We now face a more challenging situation, both
:05:28. > :05:29.in terms of the economic challenges and the rapidly changing global
:05:30. > :05:35.economy with new technologies and new actors and all those things. And
:05:36. > :05:39.a geopolitical situation that is truly demanding. Look at Russia,
:05:40. > :05:44.look at what is happening to our south. We clearly need to work
:05:45. > :05:50.together in a more coherent and clear way. However, in June you were
:05:51. > :05:53.quoted as saying in a speech that the main challenges in the last five
:05:54. > :05:59.years in the European Union have been economic ones. Looking ahead
:06:00. > :06:02.for the next five years it is political challenges in the East,
:06:03. > :06:05.fairly obviously, and also in the West, fairly obviously, is what you
:06:06. > :06:14.said. You see the challenges ahead being political ones, do you?
:06:15. > :06:17.Primarily. We have gone through a period of five`years where we have
:06:18. > :06:20.had financial challenges and debt and all that kind of thing. Looking
:06:21. > :06:24.ahead it is primarily political challenges. Really, 26 people out of
:06:25. > :06:26.work in the EU? We have set policies in motion that should be somewhat
:06:27. > :06:37.more effective, we shouldn't lose sight of that. We have Russia in the
:06:38. > :06:40.East using military power in a way that was unthinkable to most of us a
:06:41. > :06:44.couple of years ago. We have a Middle East that is about to blow up
:06:45. > :06:48.more or less if you look at Iraq these very days. We have uncertainty
:06:49. > :06:51.in the UK, where the UK is heading, that is also affecting the entire
:06:52. > :06:55.calculus. We have huge political challenges. It's interesting, as I
:06:56. > :06:59.said, 26 million unemployed across the EU, and you have some recovering
:07:00. > :07:04.in some cases, but it is weak and faltering, is what the ECB, the
:07:05. > :07:07.European Central Bank, is saying. And Marcel Fratzscher, President of
:07:08. > :07:10.the German Institute for Economic Research, says Europe is stuck in a
:07:11. > :07:13.deep slump and facing the prospect of many more years of stagnation and
:07:14. > :07:25.high unemployment, is what he said on July the 4th. Should you
:07:26. > :07:28.reconsider what you said about the fact the main challenges are
:07:29. > :07:31.political and not economic? Some of these challenges are political of
:07:32. > :07:34.nature. Jean`Claude Juncker, as you mention, likely to be the next
:07:35. > :07:37.Commission president, he said one of his priorities was to deepen the
:07:38. > :07:42.single market and go to the digital single market, that is clearly an
:07:43. > :07:46.area where we need to do more. We can generate more growth and more
:07:47. > :07:53.employment in European economies if we created a truly single market
:07:54. > :07:55.also for the new digital economy. We haven't done that. Whether that is
:07:56. > :07:59.economic or political, you can debate, but it needs to be done and
:08:00. > :08:02.it's on the agenda. You bring up Jean`Claude Juncker, likely to be
:08:03. > :08:04.the new Commission president. 18 years as Prime Minister of
:08:05. > :08:08.Luxembourg, very much an EU insider. Is he the right person to lead the
:08:09. > :08:14.European Commission at this time when you have these massive economic
:08:15. > :08:19.problems? Luxembourg has the highest standard of living in the whole EU.
:08:20. > :08:21.They have. Jean`Claude Juncker is an experienced politician, he has been
:08:22. > :08:25.around for quite some time. That could be considered a big asset but
:08:26. > :08:37.it could also be considered a disadvantage. The commission is an
:08:38. > :08:40.important institution and the president is an important
:08:41. > :08:44.personality but he is not the head of Europe. He is a top civil
:08:45. > :08:50.servant. They have the right of initiative. It is a key post. It is,
:08:51. > :08:52.but the key decisions can't be taken without the different governments
:08:53. > :09:00.being involved. The Council of Ministers. I hope he is. Sweden had
:09:01. > :09:05.some reservations. On the process, not on the personality. He is an
:09:06. > :09:08.experienced man but I would like to stress that it is a team job, very
:09:09. > :09:17.much it will be dependent on the other personalities around him. We
:09:18. > :09:20.need a leadership team for Europe that is looking to the future, that
:09:21. > :09:22.is connected with the different parts of Europe, that is
:09:23. > :09:28.representative of Europe and that can work together. It is not a one
:09:29. > :09:32.man show. Can you set the record straight? We heard reports that
:09:33. > :09:34.Sweden was a bit lukewarm about Jean`Claude Juncker. Your Prime
:09:35. > :09:37.Minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt, had that meeting at his residence
:09:38. > :09:40.outside Stockholm in June, Angela Merkel was there, Mark Rutte, the
:09:41. > :09:42.Dutch Prime Minister, and David Cameron, the British Prime Minister,
:09:43. > :09:51.who made his opposition to Jean`Claude Juncker extremely
:09:52. > :09:55.public. We all thought Sweden was not so keen on Juncker, was that the
:09:56. > :10:00.case? It was lukewarm on the process. Not the man? Not entirely
:10:01. > :10:04.enthusiastic about that. The second thing about that meeting was we were
:10:05. > :10:06.not too happy with the focus on personalities, we wanted a focus on
:10:07. > :10:09.the policies. The different personalities... The policies are
:10:10. > :10:17.set by the governments and by the institutions. We wanted a proper
:10:18. > :10:26.policy debate on which are the priorities of the EU as we look
:10:27. > :10:29.ahead. Out of that meeting between the Prime Minister of the UK, the
:10:30. > :10:31.Chancellor of Germany, the Prime Minister of the Netherlands and
:10:32. > :10:34.Sweden, came effectively the decision that was taken on the five
:10:35. > :10:38.strategic priorities for the EU over the coming five years. You might say
:10:39. > :10:41.it is a fluffy document, as these documents clearly are, but it does
:10:42. > :10:43.set the direction in policies. With due respect even to Jean`Claude
:10:44. > :10:48.Juncker more important than personalities. You're not saying
:10:49. > :10:56.what Frederik Reinfeldt said about Jean`Claude Juncker? I was not at
:10:57. > :11:00.that meeting. But you must have known. Clearly the priorities are
:11:01. > :11:04.the policies. On personalities, I would say the leadership team. We
:11:05. > :11:08.aren't there yet. We have taken... We are in the process of taking a
:11:09. > :11:17.decision on one of them, but there are a couple of other individuals in
:11:18. > :11:20.place for us to do that. You say there was a discussion of policy and
:11:21. > :11:23.essentially Britain does not want this ever closer union as set out in
:11:24. > :11:27.the Lisbon Treaty, and doesn't want to see more power ceded to Brussels
:11:28. > :11:35.and it wants to retain control on immigration, welfare, security and
:11:36. > :11:39.that kind of thing. And there is a battle, as it were, going on at the
:11:40. > :11:42.heart and soul of the European Union with Angela Merkel saying she would
:11:43. > :11:45.not countenance an unravelling of any treaties. And David Cameron
:11:46. > :11:48.saying he wants to see a revision of EU treaties to exclude Britain from
:11:49. > :11:56.the ever closer goal of closer union. Is there that battle, and if
:11:57. > :12:11.so, who do you think is going to win it? There is certainly a discussion
:12:12. > :12:15.and it is a necessary discussion. What's underway in the UK is a
:12:16. > :12:17.competencies review by the different parts of the different agencies of
:12:18. > :12:20.the UK government where they are looking pragmatically about whether
:12:21. > :12:24.it is a benefit or a disadvantage to the UK, the different competencies
:12:25. > :12:27.that are there on a European level. So far that competency review has
:12:28. > :12:30.resulted in a... While it is a net advantage to the UK, these
:12:31. > :12:33.competencies are on a UK level. The same review has been undertaken in
:12:34. > :12:43.the Netherlands with roughly the same result and we are looking at
:12:44. > :12:46.the same in Sweden. This is a discussion with must have all the
:12:47. > :12:50.time but we do end up with the conclusion that in the world in
:12:51. > :12:53.which we are living today, even the biggest of nations, France, Germany,
:12:54. > :12:57.the UK, we are too small on our own to tackle some of these issues, not
:12:58. > :13:00.all of them certainly, and we need to work together even more closely
:13:01. > :13:02.on certain areas. Just to clarify, what has been agreed? Your Prime
:13:03. > :13:05.Minister, Frederik Reinfeldt, said this ever closer union perception is
:13:06. > :13:09.maybe not the best for everyone. This has never been stated by the EU
:13:10. > :13:12.before, that is what emerged at the end of June. But David Cameron has
:13:13. > :13:16.made it quite clear writing in the Daily Telegraph at the end of June,
:13:17. > :13:19.if by fair deal we can agree we are not heading at different speeds to
:13:20. > :13:23.the same place then there is business we can do. Is it still this
:13:24. > :13:26.ultimate goal of ever closer union but you can decide at what speed
:13:27. > :13:30.you're going to get there? Not necessarily, we can define it in
:13:31. > :13:33.different ways. All of the leaders of the EU say closer union might not
:13:34. > :13:37.be for everyone, that is recognition of the fact there is different
:13:38. > :13:42.sentiment in Britain and that needs to be accounted for. Needless to
:13:43. > :13:47.say, we are a union composed of all other nations and we have to account
:13:48. > :13:52.for all of them and consider them. It is a slogan to a certain extent.
:13:53. > :13:54.This is the UK position as well, I happen to be a more pragmatic
:13:55. > :14:01.European, looking at the different issues and merits of the case. Is
:14:02. > :14:04.this an issue that is best decided on a European level, national level,
:14:05. > :14:10.or in Wales or Scotland or Catalonia or the regions of Sweden? That's an
:14:11. > :14:12.ongoing debate we must have on the proper balance of governance of the
:14:13. > :14:32.different European levels. Do you think David Cameron was
:14:33. > :14:36.humiliated by it? Did the chapter damage the reputation of the EU in
:14:37. > :14:40.public? I do not think so. We have the occurrence of these debates now.
:14:41. > :14:49.Then we move on. The difference is what we achieve in terms of policies
:14:50. > :14:52.and results. In foreign affairs, and as Foreign Minister of Sweden, you
:14:53. > :14:58.see the EU as having a clear role when we see events such as the
:14:59. > :15:01.situation in Ukraine. Russia destabilises and the European Union
:15:02. > :15:04.restabilises, you were one of the architects of the way to deal with
:15:05. > :15:19.the post`Soviet states on the EU doorstep. Do you think you are
:15:20. > :15:23.perhaps a bit too hawkish? No. I think it is extremely important that
:15:24. > :15:27.we stand on principle. What happened with Russia and Ukraine, it is
:15:28. > :15:29.something that was an affront to the very fundamental process of peace
:15:30. > :15:34.and security, not only in Europe, but globally. If you allow people to
:15:35. > :15:45.seize territory from another neighbour, that is an unacceptable
:15:46. > :15:51.and destabilising. We have not seen that since Saddam Hussein in Kuwait.
:15:52. > :15:56.It was the same thing. We did not accept it. What Vladimir Putin has
:15:57. > :16:00.done in the Crimea is exactly the same. But the history with this. You
:16:01. > :16:14.likened their actions to Nazi tactics before the Second World War.
:16:15. > :16:18.Is that helpful? We have seen that particular statement being repeated.
:16:19. > :16:28.Who has said it who has not been criticised? Do you accept that it is
:16:29. > :16:37.quite an extreme statement? I said, we have seen it before. We saw it
:16:38. > :16:51.during the Balkan war as well. One leader saying, I have the right to
:16:52. > :16:54.send my forces to protect my people. Is that kind of language helpful?
:16:55. > :16:57.History is sometimes helpful in order to show the dangers that are
:16:58. > :17:01.there. But when the Soviet Union played such a key role in the defeat
:17:02. > :17:05.of the Nazis, is it useful to bring in that analogy? The fact that
:17:06. > :17:09.Stalin was helpful in defeating Hitler was a good thing. That does
:17:10. > :17:13.not say that Stalin was a good person. But just likening the
:17:14. > :17:18.Russian actions in Georgia to Nazi tactics? It is good to look at
:17:19. > :17:24.history. We have seen it before, during the Balkan wars and the
:17:25. > :17:29.1930s. We saw Saddam Hussein in Kuwait. History is not necessarily
:17:30. > :17:32.connected to the future, but you need to be able to learn from
:17:33. > :17:44.history in order to confront the challenges of today. It is how you
:17:45. > :17:46.phrase matters. When the German Foreign Minister said, diplomacy
:17:47. > :17:50.does not mean weakness, but it is needed more than ever to prevent us
:17:51. > :18:00.from being drawn into the abyss of military escalation. I agree
:18:01. > :18:05.entirely. Diplomacy is necessary. But it must be based on the
:18:06. > :18:08.principles. We cannot accept aggression. We cannot accept that
:18:09. > :18:18.you invade the territories of others. We cannot accept people
:18:19. > :18:20.sending tanks across the borders. That is fundamentally incompatible
:18:21. > :18:24.with the principles of European security that we have been trying to
:18:25. > :18:30.uphold and defend and extend and whatever. If you allowed the Chinese
:18:31. > :18:39.to do with the Russians have done, it would be destabilising to Asia as
:18:40. > :18:48.well. The best way of arguably doing that is through NATO. Sweden is not
:18:49. > :18:55.a member of NATO. Why not join? It is a separate issue. Why not? Sweden
:18:56. > :19:02.and Finland are the only countries in that neighbourhood who aren't
:19:03. > :19:08.members. Why not join? That discussion has to be more lively in
:19:09. > :19:12.the next few years to come. One reason why Sweden is not a member of
:19:13. > :19:26.NATO, we took that decision in the late 40s, early 50s. You only need
:19:27. > :19:30.to look at a map to understand that. As the debate promises in Sweden and
:19:31. > :19:33.Finland, we will follow each other very closely. Sweden will not make a
:19:34. > :19:38.move without Finland. In the meantime, we have much closer
:19:39. > :19:43.cooperation with NATO. As you say, there is a debate. When the Finnish
:19:44. > :19:46.Prime Minister and his predecessor have publicly called for Finland to
:19:47. > :19:51.become a member of NATO, if Sweden also joined, you said that is not on
:19:52. > :20:02.the cards? The debate is on the cards. The Swedish Prime Minister
:20:03. > :20:07.said he wished it to be the case. Do you want to see Sweden in NATO? I
:20:08. > :20:10.think there would be advantages. There are a lot of other things we
:20:11. > :20:24.need to do to strengthen the security of Sweden and Finland.
:20:25. > :20:27.Absent membership of NATO. I do not think membership of NATO, even in
:20:28. > :20:30.the most ideal of conditions, will come shortly. Other things are
:20:31. > :20:34.needed. Some of it is strengthening the role of the European Union.
:20:35. > :20:38.Others involve strengthening corporation with NATO. But the
:20:39. > :20:40.cohesion of NATO, the European Union, and partnership with the
:20:41. > :20:56.United States, is absolutely fundamental. Are you worried about
:20:57. > :21:00.the co`operation of the US? We have seen the controversy over the
:21:01. > :21:05.National Security agency. I am worried about the political effects
:21:06. > :21:10.of that. I am less worried about the nature of the alliance. I can be
:21:11. > :21:13.somewhat worried at times when I hear the US politicions talk about
:21:14. > :21:19.the defence of the nation at home be a priority. We need a United States
:21:20. > :21:28.that is thoroughly engaged on the global stage. But you say that the
:21:29. > :21:31.alliance has been questioned. Some people have been saying, should we
:21:32. > :21:42.accept the US dollar as the international currency. And it is
:21:43. > :21:48.absurd that Europeans sell to one another in US dollars. That is
:21:49. > :21:58.US`EU alliance is not as solid as it US`EU alliance is not as solid as it
:21:59. > :22:02.might be. There are tensions. On the currency issue, the dollar is the
:22:03. > :22:10.global currency. I think the euro is going to be increasingly significant
:22:11. > :22:13.in years to come. It might well be that we will see a situation where
:22:14. > :22:16.foreign bodies that have nothing to do with this particular dispute, the
:22:17. > :22:22.euro will emerge as a more significant global currency. At the
:22:23. > :22:28.same time, the bonds are very strong. If you look at challenges,
:22:29. > :22:39.look at the Middle East and all the problems we have there. No European
:22:40. > :22:42.nation, not even Europe can do it. We have to deal with the Americans.
:22:43. > :22:47.Finally, there are elections in September. You're part of the
:22:48. > :22:53.centre`right government. You could be out of the job. Would you fancy
:22:54. > :22:59.the position of the EU foreign policy chief? I am not a candidate.
:23:00. > :23:05.I am not a candidate for anything except Sweden at the moment. I think
:23:06. > :23:08.you might be out of the job most likely in Sweden. That might
:23:09. > :23:18.certainly be the case. You never know. I am not a candidate for that
:23:19. > :23:29.position. That being said, I will stay engaged on the European scene.
:23:30. > :23:33.I think they are vitally important. If you were offered it, you would
:23:34. > :23:37.not take it? I do not think I would be offered it, because I am not a
:23:38. > :23:46.candidate. But I will stay engaged. Very quickly, is it because you are
:23:47. > :23:49.seen as very outspoken? One person said he would answer is getting the
:23:50. > :23:52.job asked them because you say what you think and that is not always
:23:53. > :23:57.wise and politics. Briefly, is that true? He is a very wise person. You
:23:58. > :24:00.will carry on speaking your mind? Yes I will. Carl Bildt, thank you
:24:01. > :24:26.for coming on HARDtalk. Yesterday, we had some pretty big
:24:27. > :24:29.temperature contrasts across the British Isles, where the sunshine
:24:30. > :24:36.put in an appearance temperatures reached 25. Underneath this cloud it
:24:37. > :24:37.was not just cool, it was also pretty