:00:00. > :00:09.probably been destroyed. You are up`to`date. It is time for
:00:10. > :00:17.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. The kidnap and
:00:18. > :00:21.murder of four teenagers, three Israeli and one Palestinian, has
:00:22. > :00:26.triggered protests and violent clashes in Israel and the occupied
:00:27. > :00:32.territories and unleashed the heaviest rocket fire between Israel
:00:33. > :00:40.and Hamas for nearly two is. Israel blames Hamas for the kidnappings and
:00:41. > :00:43.murders. Two days later, a 16`year`old Palestinian boy,
:00:44. > :00:46.Mohammed Abu Khdair, was killed in Jerusalem. Jewish suspects have been
:00:47. > :00:49.arrested for his murder. This latest crisis has exposed the abyss between
:00:50. > :00:59.the two communities ` could it escalate into a wider conflict? My
:01:00. > :01:29.guest today is Dore Gold, an adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu.
:01:30. > :01:40.Dore Gold, welcome to HARDtalk. Could this current crisis escalate
:01:41. > :01:45.into a wider conflict? Much of it depends on what Hamas decides. Hamas
:01:46. > :01:50.in the last week or so has been escalating rocket fire into the
:01:51. > :01:58.heart of Israel, not just the south of Israel. Nearly one is `` 1
:01:59. > :02:01.million Israelis have been affected. We had 80 rockets pounding Israeli
:02:02. > :02:09.territory. We will not tolerate this. A military spokesmen for
:02:10. > :02:16.Israel says that Israel is preparing for the possibility of sending
:02:17. > :02:19.ground forces into Gaza. We have a green light to recruit more reserve
:02:20. > :02:28.troops. That will enable us to carry out ground missions. How likely is
:02:29. > :02:30.that? I would not want to say, I would not want to second`guess
:02:31. > :02:39.operation decisions of the Israeli army. All options are on the table.
:02:40. > :02:43.The IDF has been commissioned to end this rocket fire on the civilians of
:02:44. > :02:48.Israel. It will do what it takes to bring about a complete halt of this
:02:49. > :02:53.rocket fire and the denial of the freedom of the people of Israel to
:02:54. > :02:57.live normally. How far is Benjamin Netanyahu under pressure from the
:02:58. > :03:05.hardliners of his government to take tougher action against Hamas? I have
:03:06. > :03:12.known him for many years. He does not listen to here say. He does what
:03:13. > :03:17.the country needs to be secure. The people of Israel deserve to have the
:03:18. > :03:22.peace, to have the quiet, that any other country would insist upon. He
:03:23. > :03:27.will sit with his national security establishment to decide what is
:03:28. > :03:33.necessary to bring about that quiet. He would not tolerate this in London
:03:34. > :03:38.or Paris or anywhere. I was asking you what pressure there was on him
:03:39. > :03:44.to take tougher action. I am not talking about public opinion here.
:03:45. > :03:47.The Foreign Minister has said he is ending his party's alliance with
:03:48. > :03:55.Benjamin Netanyahu because of his refusal to be tougher on the Hamas.
:03:56. > :03:58.He says differences have become substantial and fundamental. It is
:03:59. > :04:06.not clear what we are waiting for. At the end of 2015, and mass will ``
:04:07. > :04:12.Hamas will have hundreds of rockets. Those kinds of pressures are very
:04:13. > :04:16.real. These comments by the Foreign Minister just illustrate the
:04:17. > :04:22.restraint with which the Prime Minister has exercised over the last
:04:23. > :04:27.couple of days. He is wanting a chance to resolve the crisis without
:04:28. > :04:34.using full military force that Israel can use and can exercise. But
:04:35. > :04:39.if all we get from Hamas is increasing escalation, more
:04:40. > :04:44.rockets, then he will be left with no choice but to do what is
:04:45. > :04:50.necessary to defend the population. A spokesperson for the Palestinian
:04:51. > :04:53.National authority, not Hamas, says the occupational government's
:04:54. > :04:57.decision to expand the war it is also a decision to destroy any
:04:58. > :04:59.opportunity for peace and will plunge the region into a cycle of
:05:00. > :05:05.bloody violence which will harm everyone. To what extent this is
:05:06. > :05:14.well aware that it is in nobody's interest for this conflict to widen?
:05:15. > :05:20.Again, if Hamas would stop launching rockets into Israeli civilian
:05:21. > :05:24.territory, this would be resolved. We want to make sure that Hamas
:05:25. > :05:32.cannot just decide next month to resume this. It is surprising that
:05:33. > :05:37.the Palestinian authority spokesman refers to the Tory inside sovereign
:05:38. > :05:46.Israel has occupied territory. `` territory. But it shows some of the
:05:47. > :05:52.problems of this conflict. If you cannot accept the sovereignty of the
:05:53. > :06:00.Jewish state, how are you going to come to a resolution over our final
:06:01. > :06:04.boundaries? Let us look at what has triggered the crisis. The terrible
:06:05. > :06:11.murder of these three is really teenagers and the subsequent murder
:06:12. > :06:15.of a Palestinian. `` Israeli. The Israeli authorities said, this is
:06:16. > :06:20.Hamas. What evidence do you have that it was Hamas behind the
:06:21. > :06:26.abductions and killings? Much of this is internal intelligence from
:06:27. > :06:31.the Israeli security establishment. Some of it has been made evident.
:06:32. > :06:38.Two of the suspects are Hamas operatives. They have been trained
:06:39. > :06:42.by Hamas. We are not just pulling anybody off the street. We have very
:06:43. > :06:47.clear data that this was Hamas. Hamas has praised this. When that
:06:48. > :06:56.Palestinian gunman was kidnapped and killed, it seems now by Jews who
:06:57. > :07:04.committed that crime, that was condemned across our political
:07:05. > :07:06.spectrum. `` Palestinian young man. But when the three Israeli teenagers
:07:07. > :07:13.were kidnapped and ultimately killed, Hamas was praising this
:07:14. > :07:20.operation. There is a difference between how we are approaching this.
:07:21. > :07:26.Hamas's statements show that this was a Hamas move. You say your
:07:27. > :07:33.intelligence is telling you that it was Hamas, although I have to say
:07:34. > :07:38.that their official position, we were told `` Sky News was told that
:07:39. > :07:46.they knew nothing of the killings and they are grossly spokesmen said
:07:47. > :07:57.that they had no information. `` a Hamas spokesmen. These were said to
:07:58. > :08:01.be low`level members of Hamas who belong to a rogue group and have a
:08:02. > :08:09.history of acting independently. They are not mainstream members, are
:08:10. > :08:14.they? That is an old trick in the terrorist world that has been used
:08:15. > :08:22.for years. You might remember there was an attack because they did not
:08:23. > :08:28.want to be held responsible for terrorist operations. When the
:08:29. > :08:34.Israeli security establishment says it is Hamas, you should believe it
:08:35. > :08:37.is Hamas. The security establishment has intimate intelligence ties with
:08:38. > :08:41.many countries around the world. It does not assert conclusions that
:08:42. > :08:51.have not been thoroughly checked out. Why not arrest and charge these
:08:52. > :08:55.suspects and put them on trial? We have to get a hold of these
:08:56. > :09:01.suspects. They are hiding out in the west Bank. If we had one corporation
:09:02. > :09:06.from the Palestinian authority, we might be able to obtain
:09:07. > :09:10.information. But we do not have them in custody. When we do, we will use
:09:11. > :09:18.the full power of Israeli law to bring them to justice. What have you
:09:19. > :09:27.been doing in the lead up to try and find then and arrested them? This is
:09:28. > :09:31.part of what has to be done. You have to find these people. We
:09:32. > :09:35.originally had the security operations to find the three
:09:36. > :09:39.kidnapped boys. But unfortunately, that ended tragically when we
:09:40. > :09:43.discovered their bodies. Israel will do what is necessary to bring these
:09:44. > :09:48.people to justice. We will not allow these teenagers to be murdered and
:09:49. > :09:56.the people who perpetrated this crime to go free. This is what you
:09:57. > :10:01.have done, Dore Gold, in trying to apprehend the two suspects. I
:10:02. > :10:07.mentioned, why not find them and put them on trial. This is what Israel
:10:08. > :10:10.has done. You have arrested 539 Palestinians, doubling the number of
:10:11. > :10:15.those detained without trial or charge. The houses of militants have
:10:16. > :10:20.been blown up, causing significant damage to the larger buildings in
:10:21. > :10:24.which they were located. 23,000 Palestinians were barred from
:10:25. > :10:28.travelling to their jobs in Israel. Any person from one town was
:10:29. > :10:32.prevented from travelling abroad. More than 20 Palestinians have been
:10:33. > :10:39.killed, including three Palestinians under the age of 18. What would you
:10:40. > :10:47.say to that? I cannot verify what you are quoting. Israeli military
:10:48. > :10:56.actions are consistent with the requirements of international law.
:10:57. > :11:01.Israel is under the supervision of our court system, including the
:11:02. > :11:08.Supreme Court. Some people will put out all kinds of data. But it
:11:09. > :11:12.happened. I do not saying that when the Israeli authorities are trying
:11:13. > :11:16.to find these two suspects you are so sure were behind the abductions
:11:17. > :11:21.and the killings that you did not carry out these kind of operations
:11:22. > :11:28.that I just described? They have been reported in just about every
:11:29. > :11:32.report you read about. You cited specific numbers. I said we could
:11:33. > :11:39.not verify them. What are the facts you have? What I can say is the
:11:40. > :11:44.Israeli army operates with the complete oversight of the Israeli
:11:45. > :11:48.legal system. Whatever we are doing and whatever data you are being
:11:49. > :11:55.given, it is something that has been checked in terms of what moves we
:11:56. > :11:59.take on the ground and it is a vehicle operation. It is necessary,
:12:00. > :12:04.first, to find those civilians, to find those teenagers, that was our
:12:05. > :12:09.motivation. Now it is necessary to bring the people who engage in that
:12:10. > :12:14.activity to justice. I say to you that the houses of militants were
:12:15. > :12:21.blown up and you know that this is a policy that has been criticised by
:12:22. > :12:25.an Israeli rights group Centre. They say this policy of demolishing homes
:12:26. > :12:29.is not the correct one. A person must not be punished for the acts of
:12:30. > :12:46.others. The chief victims of the occupants of the demolished
:12:47. > :12:51.there are Israeli NGOs that look at issues of human rights and publish
:12:52. > :12:58.reports, but ultimately, the highest authority in this regard is the
:12:59. > :13:06.Supreme Court. Counterinsurgency war is not a pretty picture. I was not
:13:07. > :13:12.putting that to you. I was not talking about counterinsurgency.
:13:13. > :13:15.Amnesty International says the Israeli authorities must conduct a
:13:16. > :13:20.full, thorough and impartial investigation that leads to the full
:13:21. > :13:25.prosecution of those responsible in fair trials. You said that was what
:13:26. > :13:29.you were trying to do and then I gave you the examples of the
:13:30. > :13:36.responses of the Israeli authorities which have been judged
:13:37. > :13:39.disproportionate stop Israel has its advocates and Israel has people who
:13:40. > :13:44.want to criticise it and make a whole industry about criticising it.
:13:45. > :13:47.What I'm saying is that we have state institutions that are
:13:48. > :13:51.respected around the world and those state institutions are supervising
:13:52. > :13:56.us. In the meantime, we are beyond this. We are dealing with a
:13:57. > :13:59.full`scale attack on the state of Israel in which 1 million Israelis
:14:00. > :14:06.are forced into shelters and listen to sirens going off and are facing
:14:07. > :14:10.rocket attacks. By the way, a Hamas rocket attack against an Israeli
:14:11. > :14:13.city is a war crime. It is a crime against humanity. I don't hear
:14:14. > :14:18.people saying that we should indict the leaders of Hamas for what they
:14:19. > :14:25.are doing. We will put that to the leaders of Hamas when we speak to
:14:26. > :14:31.them. When you say that Hamas did not condemn the killing of the three
:14:32. > :14:35.Israelis, Hamas are not all Palestinians, are they? President
:14:36. > :14:42.Mahmoud Abbas did condemn the killings of the three Israelis. He
:14:43. > :14:46.condemned what was happening when they disappeared. He co`ordinated a
:14:47. > :14:51.force to find the missing teenagers. Unfortunately and tragically,
:14:52. > :14:55.Mahmoud Abbas decided that Hamas would be his medical partner and
:14:56. > :15:06.created a reconciliation agreement signed by X Factor and Hamas.
:15:07. > :15:10.Therefore, `` signed by Fatah and Hamas. Therefore, half of the
:15:11. > :15:13.Palestinian political establishment supported the kidnapping and murder
:15:14. > :15:18.of three Israelis. On the Israeli side, the entire Israeli political
:15:19. > :15:22.spectrum has condemned the murder of the Palestinian teenager. This is no
:15:23. > :15:28.way to build any peace between us, if indeed, we make a partnership
:15:29. > :15:31.with an international terrorist organisation like Hamas which has
:15:32. > :15:36.been designated not just by us but by the EU, the US Canada and others.
:15:37. > :15:42.I will come to the unity government and the role of Hamas in a moment.
:15:43. > :15:47.But the hatred is not only on the Palestinian side, is it? It is also
:15:48. > :15:53.on the Israeli side. One of the full and it facts and side`effects of war
:15:54. > :15:57.is the rage of people when they see their civilians being killed. Let's
:15:58. > :16:01.remember one thing. If you look at the textbooks of Hamas or the
:16:02. > :16:07.Palestinian Authority, young people are taught jihad. They are taught
:16:08. > :16:12.armed resistance. And they are taught to hate the Jewish people.
:16:13. > :16:16.That is something that should have been changed years ago in the Oslo
:16:17. > :16:20.accords in 1993 but was not and therefore, whole generations of
:16:21. > :16:26.grown`up to hate Israelis no matter what we do. You accept, then, that
:16:27. > :16:33.there is hatred on the Israeli side as well? Well, I think when Israelis
:16:34. > :16:39.see three innocent teenagers slaughtered, they are also enraged.
:16:40. > :16:44.But the Israeli establishment, the Israeli educational system, does not
:16:45. > :16:50.promote hatred of the Arabs. To the contrary, it promotes peace. We saw
:16:51. > :16:56.the Facebook page entitled the people of Israel demand revengeful
:16:57. > :16:58.and it attracted 35,000 fans would civilians and soldiers posting
:16:59. > :17:04.pictures of themselves holding signs calling for revenge. We have heard
:17:05. > :17:10.of Israelis running amok in Jerusalem's main squares, some
:17:11. > :17:13.chanting death to Arabs, Palestinians pulled from a tram that
:17:14. > :17:20.connects Arab suburbs to the city centre, Arabs attacked in shock and
:17:21. > :17:25.restaurants. You know what? You have extremist elements in every society.
:17:26. > :17:28.Go to a football match in most European cities and you will see
:17:29. > :17:32.them there. But what is going on here in Israel is a national
:17:33. > :17:38.government that is trying to promote peace and is condemning acts against
:17:39. > :17:44.innocent people, like the act that occurred last week. Unfortunately,
:17:45. > :17:49.the national position of the Hamas leadership is one that calls for
:17:50. > :17:54.killing Jews. Read the Hamas charter. That is not on our side,
:17:55. > :17:58.that is on their side. Again, you are painting all Palestinians as
:17:59. > :18:01.representing that kind of you and I put it to you that President of
:18:02. > :18:06.Mahmoud Abbas and did condemn the killings. He said he was
:18:07. > :18:10.co`ordinating with Israel. I have said nothing of Mahmoud Abbas. Sure,
:18:11. > :18:16.but you are painting all Palestinians as Hamas and I say that
:18:17. > :18:18.is a sweeping statement. The father of Mohammed Abu Khdair, the boy who
:18:19. > :18:23.was killed, told the New York Times on the 2nd of July, I'm against the
:18:24. > :18:27.kidnapping and the killings. Whether due or Arab, who can accept the
:18:28. > :18:32.kidnapping and killing of his son or daughter. I call on both sides to
:18:33. > :18:35.stop the bloodshed. I'm giving you an example of Palestinians
:18:36. > :18:41.conforming to the kind of values that you say is what the Israelis
:18:42. > :18:44.are attached to. What I'm trying to say is that I did not say all
:18:45. > :18:50.Palestinians have that position. What I did say is that Hamas as a
:18:51. > :18:53.national leadership of part of the Palestinian people has been
:18:54. > :18:59.promoting hate and violence. Open up a Hamas textbooks. Go to a Hamas
:19:00. > :19:06.website. Look at what religious leaders are saying. One of the
:19:07. > :19:10.highest religious leaders in Gaza called for a new Holocaust against
:19:11. > :19:13.the Jews. That is what they do as part of a national institution.
:19:14. > :19:16.There are Palestinian to call against the murder of Jews and we
:19:17. > :19:24.are pleased when those cases come up. On our side as well, we have had
:19:25. > :19:28.the mothers of the victims of the three boys, particularly Rachel
:19:29. > :19:35.Frenkel, coming out and condemning attacks against destinies. The main
:19:36. > :19:37.point is this. We are basically still trying to resolve the
:19:38. > :19:44.mysteries of those murders that occurred but we are also facing a
:19:45. > :19:49.massive assault from Hamas on the state of Israel and we have to bring
:19:50. > :19:53.this war to an end and we have to bring stability and peace. That can
:19:54. > :20:00.only be done if hatred is fought and if hatred is prevented, which is not
:20:01. > :20:06.what is occurring on the Palestinian side. What can you do now? There is
:20:07. > :20:13.a government of national unity, a technocrat government backed by both
:20:14. > :20:17.Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas. The US and EU say they will give this
:20:18. > :20:22.technocratic government a chance, they will see what transpires. The
:20:23. > :20:25.US is providing aid. Don't you have to work with what the international
:20:26. > :20:30.community says is acceptable? Otherwise you will find yourself
:20:31. > :20:34.isolated. Sometimes you have to do the right thing and if parts of the
:20:35. > :20:41.international community have accepted or acquiesced to Mahmoud
:20:42. > :20:45.Abbas's embrace of Hamas, that is unfortunate. That is a big mistake.
:20:46. > :20:50.You can understand their assumption. They thought if Hamas embraced
:20:51. > :20:54.Mahmoud Abbas, maybe Hamas would become more moderate. Maybe it would
:20:55. > :20:59.stop its insistence on armed resistance, which is so central to
:21:00. > :21:07.its political thinking, but the opposite occurred. Hamas actually
:21:08. > :21:11.began with rocket fire in a systematic way against Israeli
:21:12. > :21:14.cities and now it has massively escalated that rocket fire so that
:21:15. > :21:20.in one evening, you can have a two rockets falling on Israel. That is
:21:21. > :21:25.not moderation, that is war. Looking at the bigger picture, the US top
:21:26. > :21:31.envoy on this conflict until the 30th of June is now reported as
:21:32. > :21:36.saying that when it comes to the blame game, he blames the
:21:37. > :21:46.Palestinians than the Israelis are 50`50. You are not absolved of blame
:21:47. > :21:49.for the failure to make any progress on the peace process. I have known
:21:50. > :21:53.him for many years and he reflects a certain US position that wants to
:21:54. > :21:58.keep the peace process going in the future, so you blame both sides. But
:21:59. > :22:04.I was there. I was involved with this process and I saw the efforts
:22:05. > :22:08.of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to make this process work.
:22:09. > :22:11.Unfortunately, when Mahmoud Abbas sat in March with President Obama
:22:12. > :22:15.and President Obama asked if he would support this framework that we
:22:16. > :22:20.have worked out, Mahmoud Abbas said we would get back to you. That is
:22:21. > :22:25.not what this envoy says. You say you know what he said. But March in
:22:26. > :22:28.this year, he said Newman Netanyahu effectively checked out from the
:22:29. > :22:34.talks and stopped responding to proposals on the Obama
:22:35. > :22:38.administration. Well... There was an open dialogue between the US and
:22:39. > :22:41.Israel. We hope we have that open dialogue in the future.
:22:42. > :22:46.Unfortunately, for his own reasons, maybe political constraint, Mahmoud
:22:47. > :22:51.Abbas did not agree to the parameters proposed by the US for a
:22:52. > :22:58.framework and as a result, the situation just deteriorated. And we
:22:59. > :23:04.are in a position, the position we are in today, with the Palestinian
:23:05. > :23:08.leadership. But worst of all, Mahmoud Abbas embraced Hamas, which
:23:09. > :23:13.he knows is a terrorist group. Hamas has killed more Fatah people. Hamas
:23:14. > :23:20.does not even want a Palestinian state. You know what they want? They
:23:21. > :23:23.want a caliphate! Mahmoud Abbas says this new technocratic government
:23:24. > :23:29.stands by all prior diplomatic agreement including the recognition
:23:30. > :23:32.of Israel. Finally, John Kerry says the absence of peace is perpetual
:23:33. > :23:39.conflict. You don't want perpetual conflict in Israel, do you? We are
:23:40. > :23:44.determined to reach peace with our neighbours. In the past, we made
:23:45. > :23:50.peace with Egypt. We gave up over 90% of the territory we captured in
:23:51. > :23:53.the six`day war. We made peace with Jordan and both of those treaties
:23:54. > :23:57.have been tested but we have succeeded. We would love to make
:23:58. > :24:01.peace with the Palestinians but it takes two to tango and
:24:02. > :24:06.unfortunately, Mahmoud Abbas has failed to bring peace for his side.
:24:07. > :24:12.Maybe they have to go back to the drawing board and find a different
:24:13. > :24:16.approach. But I will tell you this, the people of Israel are united in
:24:17. > :24:47.seeking peace with their neighbours. Thank you for coming onto Hartog. ``
:24:48. > :24:48.had HARDtalk. It looks like we will at least get one day